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We found Star Saga to be about the same as all Mantic product outside KOW: initially slick looking core rules, once you put models on the table it's obvious there was no playtesting refinement done and you keep getting stuck on bad edge cases that should have been caught.

 Eilif wrote:
I'd be interested in hearing both of your observations on the previous edition of Dungeon Saga.

A couple years ago I considered it and Heroquest. Went with Heroquest and am happy with it as a fun light dungeon crawler. But as is suggested, it is not really an RPG.

The original Dungeon Saga kickstarter was pushed as a modern Heroquest with the base game, and an advanced game book to add solo/coop rules and a WHQ style bestiary to expand the available baddies to include your Kings of War army miniatures in order to open the game up to more of a modern Warhammer Quest 95. There were all sorts of add-on packs and stretch goals to add KoW minis and rules to that book.

Then, as was the style at the time, Mantic shipped the project off to Jake Thornton's gaming company, Quirkworthy, to turn all that into a reality. I followed his blogs there, and it was very clear that he wasn't interested in anything other than Heroquest style 1 vs. many gaming. He even outright stated that he didn't like Warhammer Quest, because he felt like that style of game was better covered by full roleplay games. He seemed to be utter fixated on the fact that the WHQ bestiary, level advancement, and town/travel rules were in a book titled "Roleplay Book" and seemed to think that meant it was trying to be an RPG.

So, we got what was very, very common with Mantic games of the era: a Jake Thornton beta ruleset shipped as a first edition. (Deadzone and Dreadball went through similar, with a first edition that was just good enough to get people playing, so Mantic eventually crowd-funded a second edition refined by in-house writers. The advanced game book became the Adventurer's Companion, which shipped to backers so laden with typos and errors they had to print and ship a corrected copy. And even then, it was clear that the character creation, campaign levelling, bestiary, and solo/coop AI rules were all last minute cludge jobs, banged out and untested by a disinterested designer. The bestiary was so abbreviated, it just barely covered the contents of the add-on packs from the KS campaign, nevermind the full KoW range.

The PVC minis produced for the game were extra soft and bendy, some with terrible mold lines, to boot.

I backed heavily for a modern WHQ, and that is NOT what I got. I did get some decent dungeon tiles and cheap KoW minis, but the rules were a "read once then banish to a box in the back of the closet" mess, though. I was severely unhappy with what was delivered vs. what was promised, in a way no other Mantic KS has disappointed me before or since. I watched the video above, and once again the solo/coop rules are going to be an add-on (a stretch goal, even, this time), and that tells me that this Dungeon Saga is just as dead to me as the first.

It's weird that in many ways we're in the golden age of dungeon crawlers, but none of them really hit the sweet spot.

I guess gloomhaven just sucks so much air out of the room. it seems great, only it's not a minis game, and anything that's better on an app is probably overly complicated.

I'm hopeful for a clean combat mechanic, the dungeon saga one was way too slow and fiddly, star saga improved upon it a lot.

No custom dice it seems, so hopefully the combat resolution has been reworked to something much simpler.

Ideally combat should be resolved quickly, with the difficulty determined mainly by player choice and tactics (engage hordes through doorways, choose a better path to avoid a tough enemy after rescuing a prisoner who gives hints about what lies ahead etc.).

Light RPG elements are essential to the experience, hidden doors, narrative hooks, different routes through the dungeon etc.

Setup and teardown time is something they have addressed, which is really good.

 Eilif wrote:
I'd be interested in hearing both of your observations on the previous edition of Dungeon Saga.

Around the time that the original KS launched, I realised that I didn't have a fantasy dungeon crawler and was looking at eBay copies of HQ. This probably led me towards HQ25...

Anyway, DS then popped up. Good old fantasy dungeon crawler: barbarians, elves, undead etc. None of this half-dragon, half-mermaid crystalmancer guff for a character.

The KS fulfilled that, but did suffer from mission creep. It ended up more gameplay options as the campaign went on and it's those options that ended up half-baked and the game's reputation suffered for it. The main game experience is great, narrative driven dungeon bash.

It's a fairly tactical romp through dungeons that includes the things that you'd expect in a game like this, but not quite:

- Progression and "levelling up" happens, but it's out of your hands - your characters get better, but in a way that's determined by the adventure.

- Looting happens, but it's occasional and again, determined by the adventure. Most adventures are on a timer, so you couldn't afford to be mucking around doing that stuff anyway.

Expanded rules are there to change those things, but I've never touched them because they are a bit clunky/bolted-on/unbalanced.

What I got out of it was a pretty tense, fairly vanilla setting (this is not a bad thing!) dungeon romp where I got to bash down doors, smash skeletons into bonemeal, find the Enchanted Gem of Maguffinland and get the you-know-what out of Dodge.

If Mantic can do a slightly more refined version of it, I'm going to be happy.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I’ve played Star Saga, which I assume is similar to Dungeon Saga. It was fine. I had fun playing it. The cardboard tiles were distractingly flimsy, and the rules felt a bit more gamey than Shadows of Brimstone, but not so much as Zombicide Invader. It never came close to unseating SOB as our game, but the minis and terrain pieces are quite nice and useful for other games.

Thanks for that. Looks like a good enough product, but I'm glad I went with Heroquest. A new DSaga is exciting, but I've already got a more advanced dungon crawler in the form of Imperial Assault which I've only played once but is of more interest to me than any other Dungeon Crawler. Realistically, DSaga would probably just join Ravenloft and Mice and Mystics as another unplayed game on the shelf.

from my experience you see what Mantic learned from DS and made better und Star Saga
though not everything bad came along with DS as I only know the translated version (which I guess already had some corrections)

so if Ronnie say they learned something and improved on that rather than re-printing the original, no reason not believing them
still does not mean the game is for me, as this will really depend on 2 things, if they manage to get a translation done, and if it is really as kid friendly and fast playing as Ronnie promises

So... I'm waiting to hear a phrase that seems to come out every time Mantic runs a kickstarter, or releases new product line.

"The last thing had problems, but they seem like they've learnt from there mistakes... this is going to be great!"

Mantic Entertainment - est. 2008

I think Mantic is more like “Mantic. You know what to expect by now. Pledge with your eyes open, and moderate your hopes for moderate satisfaction.”

History of previous Mantic Games kickstarters should teach people now not to believe Ronnie about what he says. He says whatever makes people bring their wallet out - so of course he will say they "learned about the past". Doesn't mean they won't repeat it.

I'd say the safest way here is wait for retail. You will find the product in stores, maybe not all of the "gimmick / exclusive" options but you don't need them to enjoy a game. Especially if it's a game you'll play once then put back on the shelf to take the dust for a while.

Which is what happened sadly to a lot of people with Dungeon Saga, Star Saga, Leagues of Infamy...

Main reason to me of this kickstarter (other than the usual Mantic cash grab from their fanboyz with their artificial hype) is not really about making the best Dungeon Saga game, but just a way to release new miniatures for Kings of War by disguising it with a "Dungeon Saga" name, so that they can milk the faithful Dungeon Saga community. It's pretty clear they won't give it the same attention than they do about their main games.


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 Polonius wrote:
It's weird that in many ways we're in the golden age of dungeon crawlers, but none of them really hit the sweet spot.

I guess gloomhaven just sucks so much air out of the room. it seems great, only it's not a minis game, and anything that's better on an app is probably overly complicated.

There are actually more dungeon crawler systems that are very close to RPGs, they're just more obscure and not known.Most of them come as just rulebooks and advice their players to use material from other companies to make the dungeon tiles / monsters / heroes.

I couldn't put it better than Psychopomp, so I won't even try.

Dungeon Saga was the nail in the Mantic coffin for me. It was awful and unsalvageable. I still play Deadzone 3rd edition, and think it's just about the best tabletop wargame out there, but I will not back one of their games on KS again. If it's really good, maybe I'll pick up a copy at retail. Or maybe wait until the third edition...!

Thanks to @chillreaper and @psychpomp for your insights. Much appreciated.

Sounds like more confirmation that Heroquest was the right choice for me. Though if HQ hadn't been rereleased, it sounds like it might have been a fair substitute.

I went in on the original Deadzone and the Warpath Kickstarters. Neither game made me want to play, but both at least delivered figures I hope to someday paint.

At this point, I think a new edition of KoW is the only ruleset from Mantic that I'd purchase via KS sight unseen, though to my mind, the current edition doesn't really need an update. Mantic has delivered 3.5 KOW editions in a row that have scratched the same itch to my satisfaction without major changes or snafus.

Sarouan wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird that in many ways we're in the golden age of dungeon crawlers, but none of them really hit the sweet spot.

I guess gloomhaven just sucks so much air out of the room. it seems great, only it's not a minis game, and anything that's better on an app is probably overly complicated.

There are actually more dungeon crawler systems that are very close to RPGs, they're just more obscure and not known.Most of them come as just rulebooks and advice their players to use material from other companies to make the dungeon tiles / monsters / heroes.

Rangers of Shadowdeep is probably the most satisfying solo play experience I've ever had.

 Eilif wrote:
Thanks to @chillreaper and @psychpomp for your insights. Much appreciated.

Sounds like more confirmation that Heroquest was the right choice for me. Though if HQ hadn't been rereleased, it sounds like it might have been a fair substitute.

I went in on the original Deadzone and the Warpath Kickstarters. Neither game made me want to play, but both at least delivered figures I hope to someday paint.

At this point, I think a new edition of KoW is the only ruleset from Mantic that I'd purchase via KS sight unseen, though to my mind, the current edition doesn't really need an update. Mantic has delivered 3.5 KOW editions in a row that have scratched the same itch to my satisfaction without major changes or snafus.

Situation now is clearly not the same as when the original Dungeon Saga was released. DS has always been about nostalgia from old Warhammer Heroquest / Heroquest / Advanced Heroquest, but as always Mantic Games doesn't think much ahead with their "side games". Like others said on this thread, thorough playtesting was never their focus.

What is mostly annoying here is that Mantic Games is doing that new edition through a Kickstarter again ...and most people who are interested by Dungeon Saga and saw what happened before do know that Mantic doesn't do that for the game itself or because "they are a small company". They do it because it's their business model and they know they will get a ton of cash for something that won't be released before a good time.

It's a bit like the CMON of the poors...Mantic has always been cheap version of other big names on the miniature market and they don't seem to intend to be anything else.

 Polonius wrote:


Rangers of Shadowdeep is probably the most satisfying solo play experience I've ever had.

Good game, yes. Though I recently discovered 5 Leagues from the Borderlands and fell in love with their campaign system. Game designed as solo as well, with heavy focus on story telling. Both are mainly rulebooks, even if some miniatures were designed for Rangers of Shadowdeep.

Low investment too, even in comparison to Mantic "cheap" Games.

Sarouan wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Thanks to @chillreaper and @psychpomp for your insights. Much appreciated.

Sounds like more confirmation that Heroquest was the right choice for me. Though if HQ hadn't been rereleased, it sounds like it might have been a fair substitute.

I went in on the original Deadzone and the Warpath Kickstarters. Neither game made me want to play, but both at least delivered figures I hope to someday paint.

At this point, I think a new edition of KoW is the only ruleset from Mantic that I'd purchase via KS sight unseen, though to my mind, the current edition doesn't really need an update. Mantic has delivered 3.5 KOW editions in a row that have scratched the same itch to my satisfaction without major changes or snafus.

Situation now is clearly not the same as when the original Dungeon Saga was released. DS has always been about nostalgia from old Warhammer Heroquest / Heroquest / Advanced Heroquest, but as always Mantic Games doesn't think much ahead with their "side games". Like others said on this thread, thorough playtesting was never their focus.

What is mostly annoying here is that Mantic Games is doing that new edition through a Kickstarter again ...and most people who are interested by Dungeon Saga and saw what happened before do know that Mantic doesn't do that for the game itself or because "they are a small company". They do it because it's their business model and they know they will get a ton of cash for something that won't be released before a good time.

Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.

 sukura636 wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.

No need to play devil's advocate. It's a Mantic thread. Sarouan will be here, doing his best to discredit Mantic.

Show us on the toy soldier where Mantic hurt you Sarouan.

In my opinion... I picked up someone's complete Dungeon Saga 1 kickstarter cheaply. I've played it a few times when only some of my Pathfinder group are available and we don't want to move the campaign on. We've enjoyed it, but I'm not desperate for v2 as we still have 2 or so expansions of v1 to play through.

Personally, I'm going to go with Battle Systems' Core Space fantasy. Mantic let me down with Vanguard as it seemed ditched before it got to the faction I really wanted.

KoW is however a fantastic game, and I'm happy with v3(.5).

I had high hopes for Dungeon Saga that were dashed on delivery for the very reasons stated by others here.

I've backed other Mantic projects and they've all fallen short. I don't appreciate a "good enough" mentality from creators (I don't accept it in myself) so it's annoying to no end to hear Ronnie shill the latest product to sell it but disappear when a substandard one arrives without even coming close to his hype. Frankly, I just don't trust Mantic to deliver anything but mediocre and frustration and I work too hard for my money to spend it on that.

As another mentioned, I'll be supporting Battle System's Maladum (fantasy Core Space).

 sukura636 wrote:


Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.

I never said everything. Releasing their side games through Kickstarter is definitively part of their business model now. They don't need to use Kickstarter, but they know they can get a ton of cash more easily that way. Their marketing machine is running pretty smoothly in that field with their Ronnie "Hype Time !" artificial interventions.

A bit similar to CMON with their "you-can't-miss-that-awesome-deal", but cheaper version of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:

Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.

No need to play devil's advocate. It's a Mantic thread. Sarouan will be here, doing his best to discredit Mantic.

Show us on the toy soldier where Mantic hurt you Sarouan.

In my opinion... I picked up someone's complete Dungeon Saga 1 kickstarter cheaply. I've played it a few times when only some of my Pathfinder group are available and we don't want to move the campaign on. We've enjoyed it, but I'm not desperate for v2 as we still have 2 or so expansions of v1 to play through.

Personally, I'm going to go with Battle Systems' Core Space fantasy. Mantic let me down with Vanguard as it seemed ditched before it got to the faction I really wanted.

KoW is however a fantastic game, and I'm happy with v3(.5).

You don't need to do personnal attacks when you are in the same mind here.

I'm simply here to make newbies know what is Mantic Games past and not to believe what Ronnie says when he's marketing their new shiny project (whose support will be dropped as soon as the Kickstarter ends).

Saying company X doesn't "need to use Kickstarter" is weird because we've established at this point it's just a good way to launch risky-ish products, which board games are. You're getting loads of exposure and advocacy from your customers sharing it around and buying in to the stretch goal narrative, you get FOMO, it just makes sense. Doesn't mean I like it but "they don't need to use it" is like saying "they should deliberately hamstring themselves". It belies the personal nature of the criticism.

Sarouan wrote:

 sukura636 wrote:


Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. Are you saying that Mantic's business model is to release everything through Kickstarter? Seems a tiny bit reductionist.

I never said everything. Releasing their side games through Kickstarter is definitively part of their business model now. They don't need to use Kickstarter, but they know they can get a ton of cash more easily that way. Their marketing machine is running pretty smoothly in that field with their Ronnie "Hype Time !" artificial interventions.

A bit similar to CMON with their "you-can't-miss-that-awesome-deal", but cheaper version of that.

Ah, I'm sure you can understand my pedantry here. Because CMON is exclusively KS, whereas Mantic isn't. It's a really misleading and reductionist comparison to pull. Or that while Mantic has dropped support for some games done through KS, they also have supported games past the KS launch, too. Missed that bit out, I think. If you're out to share Mantic's past, perhaps be less misleading? Newbies could certainly read this and get a very biased view, which I'm sure you wouldn't want to happen.

even Mantic themselves said that they are doing the Boardgames via KS is not because they cannot afford it otherwise but because the target audience is there

there is no goo reason to not use it if you already know that the people buying your game will use that platform

I never did a KS except for Battletech, and there the main reason was to show that the game is still liked and worth be supported by the company

main reason to do the Dungeon Saga KS would be to secure a translated version

Sarouan wrote:
I'm simply here to make newbies know what is Mantic Games past and not to believe what Ronnie says when he's marketing their new shiny project (whose support will be dropped as soon as the Kickstarter ends).

How very noble of you.
I hope you're on the threads of all the other manufacturers, warning the poor newbies how they're being lied to for their money.
I haven't seen you on the GW threads telling the newbies not to buy GW books/rules because a new edition will be released in a 3 year cycle invalidating everything - in a way, dropping support for the game they are investing in.

At this point, unless you are one of the biggest companies, not using kickstarter to fund minis heavy board games is usually a bad idea. OTOH, "kickstarter board games" is defiintily a very loaded term in a lot of circles.

I'm a mantic fan, and while some people are unfair or hyperbolic in their criticisms, it's hard to deny that they have some quality assurance problems. Mantic kickstarters are always a lot of stuff for the dollar, but it might not be exactly what you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I haven't seen you on the GW threads telling the newbies not to buy GW books/rules because a new edition will be released in a 3 year cycle invalidating everything - in a way, dropping support for the game they are investing in.

I mean... come on man. You can't pull up a single GW thread without finding people pissing all over them.

 Polonius wrote:
Mantic kickstarters are always a lot of stuff for the dollar, but it might not be exactly what you want.

This is very accurate. I have minimal faith that a new game from Mantic will be great, but to be fair I feel the same about most games on KS. To say nothing of most such games very limited shelf life.

At least with Mantic you get a great deal on a pile of toys you can use in other games too.

I kind lost track around Hellboy box set, at the time there was talk about releasing the minis individually outside box but I dont remember seeing that. I really wanted the solo Hellboy figure on the box set but never seen it.

In therms of Mantic games/ box sets KS (outside their wargames ranges) I dont intend to get any because miniatures quality reports is a bit iffy.
I dont think Mantic will ever be interested in improving the quality there. Missed chance if you ask me.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

I hope you're on the threads of all the other manufacturers, warning the poor newbies how they're being lied to for their money.
I haven't seen you on the GW threads telling the newbies not to buy GW books/rules because a new edition will be released in a 3 year cycle invalidating everything - in a way, dropping support for the game they are investing in.

Yeah, I removed that line since it was unnecessarily disrespectful.

Thing is, there is a big difference between buying a GW product and pledging for a Mantic Games kickstarter. In the first one, you know very well what you'll get in the end. I mean, it's a finished product, no surprise here. In the second...let's just say past history of MG is mixed at best about expectations from backers at that time and what they got in the end, shall we ? And Dungeon Saga left a bad taste in more than one mouth in particular.

So there's a bigger chance newbies feel like they were lied to in the second case than the first. That's also why I can't advise them enough to think about it twice and be very aware of what Mantic Games did in the past kickstarters before going on this one, because Ronnie said something "awesome" or promise "they learned about past mistakes".

They're words, not facts.

As for their "need" to go on KS "because audience is there"...that's BS. Dungeon Saga community is pretty much where it always was : on social medias following MG's releases, because they know where that's coming from. Sure, MG may want to attract new players from boardgames and such, but guess what ? They are on social medias too. You can advertise your finished product there, you don't need to go by Kickstarters. And Dungeon Saga, a risky move ? Dungeon Saga community was faithful enough to stay with MG all that time, even when they unveiled that silly idea of League of Infamy (there was big hope it was DS 2, but wasn't the case at all in the end). They know from long time they have a fanbase ready to back them up.

No, the reason they do a kickstarter is because they can gather a big amount of money and nothing else. And they certainly don't care for players by doing that.

Sorry, kickstarter being a smart place to launch a board game isn't BS, it's common sense. Nobody agrees with you on that one.

No one has mentioned it, and I've had some negative experience with Mantic in the past, but the Hellboy board game is Very Good. The minis are good, the scenarios are good, it plays well, and I think it's a very good dungeon crawler that gets overlooked. There's some issues, and the FAQ is a little longer than I'd like (but largely edge case scenarios), but I think it's a very good game that has me excited to look at the new Dungeon Saga KS.

Billicus wrote:
Sorry, kickstarter being a smart place to launch a board game isn't BS, it's common sense. Nobody agrees with you on that one.

Yeah, if you want to gather a lot of money in a few days, it's indeed a good place for that. But argueing you "need" to do that for you board game to sell / reach the audience it is targeted at ? That is what is BS and what I'm calling.

If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.

TheHammer wrote:
No one has mentioned it, and I've had some negative experience with Mantic in the past, but the Hellboy board game is Very Good. The minis are good, the scenarios are good, it plays well, and I think it's a very good dungeon crawler that gets overlooked. There's some issues, and the FAQ is a little longer than I'd like (but largely edge case scenarios), but I think it's a very good game that has me excited to look at the new Dungeon Saga KS.

Yes, the team they said will work on it will certainly make a good board game out of that new DS. The issue is the intention and direction behind. Looking at the tiles on the previews, though, all flat carboard with set rooms (and small ones at that...) including doors and furniture...that indeed is screaming "boardgame", and not really "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements". Something you'll play once and put back on the shelves to never use again.

Sarouan wrote:

If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.

Also the truth is that only megacorporations still do that and even freakin Hasbro does crowdfunding. Kickstarter is the default for this industry now, stop using it as some argument that Mantic is exceptionally nefarious because it uses KS.