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 Knight wrote:
we play tactile games to escape the ever increasing digital world. It might be my age, but I'm a bit fed up with apps for this that and the other, especially in Table Top Wargaming, just feels unnecessary and intrusive.

I generally agree with this for similar I'm-not-a-spring-chicken-anymore reasons, but I am hoping that we'll eventually get some apps that can act as capable A.I. opponents for solo tabletop gaming, apps that have enough strategic depth, variety, and capacity to surprise that they'll actually be interesting to play against. That would probably work best for skirmish level games, though, as moving two giant armies around a tabletop could get tedious. (I'm not a fan of the late-game Zombicide experience of moving a gazillion A.I. zombies around the board.)

Not that app-based A.I. would ever be able to simulate playing in the same physical space with human (or extremely well-trained and precocious canine) friends, but that's not always possible.

kodos wrote:given with old world around the corner, why should Mantic re-create the evil elves of old times, when those who want them are going to buy them from GW anyway

and the standard Elves army list is (and most of the time already was) better suited to play classic Dark Elves anyway

Well, they try to make it something Mantic-specific, so that people would want to buy their miniatures. What's best than attachment to the world and its background ? Just selling cheap miniatures can bring you that far if you want to build a strong community with ties to your brand. That's very understandable, in the end. And very GW-like, but since their core come from the same, it's also logical. Apples don't fall far from the tree.

Though I don't agree the standard elves army list is the best suited. It would be more right to say it is in absence of anything more suited...for those who just wanted to use their old GW collection to play, that is.

Sure, those people could go back to the Old World when it's released in the end...because of their attachment to the Old World. That's why GW always made sure to keep releasing products with background specifically and keeping building their world. Just rules isn't enough to make a brand successfull on long term, even if it's "the best rules in the world".

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

What are the lies?

Their old motto - "being wargamer friendly". It was to try to make themselves look like they are nothing like GW. Which was a lie, it was never their main purpose. It was just marketing, to help attract disgrunted players from you know where.

Which is totally fitting to what's they're trying to do now, by making Mantic Games products more brandable in themselves, and not forgettable generic fantasy / SF.

 Talking Banana wrote:

 Knight wrote:
we play tactile games to escape the ever increasing digital world. It might be my age, but I'm a bit fed up with apps for this that and the other, especially in Table Top Wargaming, just feels unnecessary and intrusive.

I generally agree with this for similar I'm-not-a-spring-chicken-anymore reasons, but I am hoping that we'll eventually get some apps that can act as capable A.I. opponents for solo tabletop gaming, apps that have enough strategic depth, variety, and capacity to surprise that they'll actually be interesting to play against. That would probably work best for skirmish level games, though, as moving two giant armies around a tabletop could get tedious. (I'm not a fan of the late-game Zombicide experience of moving a gazillion A.I. zombies around the board.)

Not that app-based A.I. would ever be able to simulate playing in the same physical space with human (or extremely well-trained and precocious canine) friends, but that's not always possible.

You mean like the last version of Descent ? Making apps to translate "AI behaviour" for miniature tabletop games is already possible. But it's not the same than having a human opponent thinking and reacting to your strategies on the said tabletop.

Honestly, I'm not thrilled to see that day happening, if it happens at all. I too don't like using apps for anything, including the rules. It makes me feel like I'm playing a video game but without the benefits of it - not even talking about the use of my private data and the obligation to be always online to use the main services offered by the said app. But maybe that's because I'm old school (I'm never able to focus on rules when I'm reading it on screen, I need my good old paper book).

I'm always surprised by your level of vitriol, Sarouan, even for DakkaDakka. But anyway:

Sarouan wrote:
Their old motto - "being wargamer friendly". It was to try to make themselves look like they are nothing like GW. Which was a lie, it was never their main purpose. It was just marketing, to help attract disgrunted players from you know where.

Which is totally fitting to what's they're trying to do now, by making Mantic Games products more brandable in themselves, and not forgettable generic fantasy / SF.

I always thought Mantic's "wargamer friendly" meant cheap in the beginning, when GW's primary knock was being very expensive. And indeed, their stuff was cheap.

When it became more and more obvious that GW was also quite bad at writing rules, it makes sense that "wargamer friendly" started to mean giving a gak about balance and games themselves, something Mantic was already doing but NuDub took years to eventually catch on to when it became marketable to create balance sheets (even if the games themselves aren't particularly great, or at least very poorly designed to handle growth) because it shows you listen to your players, not just your collectors (see The Old World's marketing based on nostalgia and the armies pushed out of AOS).

Speaking of AOS, "wargamer friendly" at the time the Old World was nuked from orbit also meant giving people a home for their armies, when GW had just swept the rules out from under many players' armies and made them just collections of painted minis. Which was all the Dub really cared about - that, and being able to create an easily brandable fantasy world out of the generic fantasy of WHFB. Calling orcs "Orruks" is jarringly inane to me, but it's definitely litigable

Mantic's "wargamer friendly" is obviously a marketing tool overwhelmingly aimed at Games Workshop, the megalith known for an extended time as being distinctly unfriendly to wargamers, either as gamers or as people with limited hobby funds. As the price of doing business has increased, Mantic's claim on being affordable has dwindled (it's still quite a bit cheaper to make a Mantic Kings of War army than it is a GW Kings of War army or certainly a GW core line army, I reckon about 2/3 the price - it's also WILDLY cheaper to make an entirely legal KOW army without Mantic models, while a non-GW army will involve endless litigation with some players and be banned from official events), making Mantic's friendly claim seem hollow from a money standpoint. And as NuDub has become better and better at modern (i.e. social media) marketing, its learned that not only should you protect and develop your IP in legally distinct ways, but gamers are actually a weirdly important part of GW's market share that want things that collectors and literal children don't (i.e. balance). This hurts Mantic's friendly claim too, making it seem as insidious as the Dub's is, whether or not it is or was.

So I guess yea, Mantic's marketing promise has to sound a lot different now than it did in 2008, however I find it to ring pretty true, even in today's market and up against a smarter, more social media-minded megacorps competitor.

EDIT: I forgot to add, removing Twilight Kin is a weird move and a bit of a bad look re: Point #3 above. The best I can say is that Mantic's transparency has been very good and in the end I can respect the decision that invalidating potentially significant parts of players' new armies when the new list releases in 2023+ would be a worse feel than suspending players' ability to play with their old armies in the interrum. They'll still potentially have to change them to match the new rules, but new armies being invalidated feels worse than old armies being invalidated (I know both from experience, especially as the latter happens fairly often and is a part of collecting a wargaming army, frankly). While I favor letting the old rules roll until the new rules drop, regrettably fething over armies built from 2022-2023+ in the name of progress, I can see that that's not the best or only solution. Also yes, pulling the TK list back means Mantic can do whatever it wants with an otherwise generic and inherited army concept, which will be better in the end (or at least much more fulfilling from a games design perspective).

+++ +++

As for games with apps, Infinity continues to be the only game where having a computer on hand felt appropriate and needed. Dead trees, please.

Sarouan wrote:
You mean like the last version of Descent ?

I wouldn't know, I never tried app-driven Descent. I hated Descent 2nd edition without the app, but doubt the app would have changed my mind. It's just not my kind of game. App-driven Mansions of Madness interests me more, but I've not tried that, either. I'm speaking hypothetically; it's quite possible that what I'm hoping for doesn't exist yet in a form sophisticated and elegant enough for me to enjoy playing against it.

Sarouan wrote:
Making apps to translate "AI behaviour" for miniature tabletop games is already possible. But it's not the same than having a human opponent thinking and reacting to your strategies on the said tabletop.

Granted, it's not the same, and even if we someday get A.I. that can truly, creatively improvise and react in real-time, it still won't be as rich an experience as playing with friends. (Solo A.I. tabletop gaming might be better than playing with bitter enemies, though. I've never tried that, so it's hard to say.) For what it is, I do expect A.I. solo app-playing will get significantly more sophisticated in the future. Right now it seems to still be baby steps and simple behavioral if/then flowcharts, which is O.K. for a little bit, but gets stale quickly.

Sarouan wrote:
Honestly, I'm not thrilled to see that day happening, if it happens at all.

Overruled! I order you to be thrilled to see that day happening.

Kidding. You like what you like, that's fine.

Sarouan wrote:
I too don't like using apps for anything, including the rules. It makes me feel like I'm playing a video game but without the benefits of it - not even talking about the use of my private data and the obligation to be always online to use the main services offered by the said app. But maybe that's because I'm old school (I'm never able to focus on rules when I'm reading it on screen, I need my good old paper book).

You forgot to add my personal bête noire: apps that are subscription-based rather than one-time purchases. I'm old and stubborn enough to be willing to go without if that becomes my only option; I haven't touched Adobe Photoshop since it made the switch, may Nurgle gurgle their greedy hearts.

I agree with you on preferring to read on paper v.s. screens, and on resenting my private data being mined and my behavior being algorithmically recorded, analyzed, and profiled.

I guess me buying some solo app in the future would depend on its quality, and how many of my red lines it crosses. Whether such an app is ever likely to come along that ticks all the right boxes for me, I have no idea. Either way, I'll live.

Sarouan wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

What are the lies?

Their old motto - "being wargamer friendly". It was to try to make themselves look like they are nothing like GW. Which was a lie, it was never their main purpose. It was just marketing, to help attract disgrunted players from you know where.

Which is totally fitting to what's they're trying to do now, by making Mantic Games products more brandable in themselves, and not forgettable generic fantasy / SF.

If that really is all you have, it isnt enough to justify the claim made. Not even close.

Another friendly reminder that Dakka has an ignore function which really does make a positive impact to your reading pleasure.

Just received my KoW Compendium today. Very Impressed. Great to have all the armies and their sub-armies properly grouped and arranged and there are a few new units for my forces that I wasn't aware of having not followed the supplements too closely. The siege rules look like alot of fun and the small and large battle rules are a nice addition.

If someone had just recently bought the rulebook and Uncharted Empires and maybe a Clash or two, this rule book might seem superfluous and a bit of a slap, but that's probably inevitable with a redux/compilation like this.

The only negative I can see is that it's not a hardback so we'll see how durable it is in the long run. However, it is quite large and having everything I want in one book without the fluff I don't is very handy. I don't know that I would have felt the value if I was buying it just for the new material, but having it all together now makes it worthwhile and I'm happy to support Mantic's development of KoW when I can as I don't use their miniatures. All in all, a purchase I'm quite pleased with.

Pre-orders for December are up

Salamander Ghekkotah Slasher £45


Salamander Clan Lord on Firedrake £45


Orc Chariots/Fight Wagons £35


Empire of Dust Sandborne Wyrmriders Regiment £40


Order from here:-
https://www.manticgames.com/games/preorder/

An in addition the following have been moved from metal to resin:-
- Undead Wights Regiment
- Gigas Regiment
- Empire of Dust Revenant Champion/Army Standard Bearer

Oof...

Well there are some good elements in each of those sculpts.

Did they steal those chibi models from that CMON game for the chariots? I'd kinda like the dragon/wyvern thing if it's head were like 50% smaller and it dropped the awful flame effect.

If the Clan Lord can be put on the Slasher, that might be a very nice model.

The rest, close, but something makes them look a bit off.

These are hilariously bad. I was afraid we’d never get to use “Mantic. Almost.” yet here we are.

Considering how goofy the GW snake riders were, Mantic making them look brilliant is a real accomplishment. And the leader with the Zuckerberg death mask? *chef’s kiss*



Automatically Appended Next Post:
“They said the old Drakon sculpt could never be topped. They were wrong.” —Fisty Goue Man

The green lizardmen riders on the top pic are pretty legit, as is the beast they are riding on. Everything else is... typical Mantic Games.

 nels1031 wrote:
The green lizardmen riders on the top pic are pretty legit, as is the beast they are riding on. Everything else is... typical Mantic Games.

Unfortunately, that is my estimation as well.

Also, I really don't like the trend towards more sculpted flames on models. There's almost no feature more difficult for an average painter to get looking good.

I really, really like KOW, but I have not been impressed by the recent miniature releases. That said, Mantic does seem to be moving the game towards a relatively coherent cartoon aesthetic so at least they're trying to differentiate themselves.

I really like the chariots if you replace the awful awful AWFUL mawbeasts with literally anything else. I think I said this earlier but those will be great for everything from Chaos chariots to Beastmen chariots to Orc chariots with different crew and mounts, I'm happy to have those in hard plastic. They'll probably replace my plastic GW Chaos Mortal chariot for my 6th ed remake army. One of the rare times Mantic knocks it out of the park.

The rest just are not good. They're barely mediocre. I hope Ronnie retires soon, love his enthusiasm but I hate how much he's willing to put up with mediocre models just because they look OKish in massed formations. I really fear it will remain "Mantic: Almost" for as long as he's at the helm

ok, first thing we need Mantic or a 3rd party to make some alternative heads for the Mawbeasts
should not be that hard to do and replacing those would improve it by a lot even if the body stays
(I don't mind the beasts per se, but being the same for all armies is a downer, yet If Mantic would sell the old Boars from the chariots as standalone this would help)

for the Firedrake, if the flames/mouth are optional parts and the regular one is included, it would be a great model, otherwise it is ok

that this kind of monster is the same on all armies is less of a problem large monsters being similar around the world was already a thing in Warhammer and looks like the Slasher is the easy to catch and train monster in Pannithor

Mantic's aesthetic doesn't look much different from modern GW to me

For me, these aren't even "almost." This is "Mantic: Nope."

Get it together, guys.

Also very surprised to see Mantic using their ancient Renedra-cast Orcs for their new chariots. I don't own any Rift-forged Orcs to check, but I'm not sure the Renedra crew will scale well with them. My impression is that the Rift-forged guys are much larger.

Oh, dear...


I do like the lizards, though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talking Banana wrote:
My impression is that the Rift-forged guys are much larger.

I think that even in their fluff they are meant to be larger/more powerful than usual orcs.

It'll be a large change for me to abandon the fat Mongolian aesthetic of the GW Ogres, but man, I might have to give the new Ogres a thought now that they are not godawful Restic.

I'm big on skirmish games lately, and having hand weapon/shield, two handed weapon, and rifle options all in a single purchase, as well as both genders present, would make a really nice one-stop shop for a skirmish warband, with maybe just a supplemental purchase of an extra-special leader/mage character to lead them.

I was going to go all in on the new Ogres, but sadly the Wargames Atlantic Ogres that recently came out are just too nice to pass on.

I'm here for the derpiness of these sculpts, including the dumb chariot beast heads and the goofy sandsnakes. Tho in the latter case, all that random goop is a bummer and feels like somebody just didn't want to sculpt ribs or armor

 Maccwar wrote:
An in addition the following have been moved from metal to resin:-
- Undead Wights Regiment
- Gigas Regiment
- Empire of Dust Revenant Champion/Army Standard Bearer

THIS is the happier news for me, I genuinely didn't think we'd be able to choose metal or resin during the switch over. I want resin Gigas and do not want metal ones, great that I know what I'm in for - originally Mantic had said vague stuff about phasing metal out and etc.

Oooh resin gigas might tempt me too. They're some of the last models from the short lived era when Mantic sculpts were consistantly really quite nice.

New ambush sets are out, very nicely priced at £35.

https://www.manticgames.com/games/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-ambush/

Savings on them vary a little, the standard seems to be £50 of stuff for £35, but the ratkin and goblin sets are higher with £67.50 worth in the ratkin set and £85 (!) in the goblin set.

I see these as much more broadly useful than the army sets since it's basically buy two regiments, get a 30% discount. 40 minis for £35 RRP is really good and brings Mantic's hard plastics much closer to the pricing on oathmark or wargames atlantic.

The ratkin adds a small restic monster, but the goblin just straight up has 3 full plastic regiments. That's pretty nutso. The 3 mincers were listed for 40€ alone just a few days ago, now they're 40€bundled with 2 other kits.

so all the sets come with unit bases and an pre-made army list
hence the different value as all are the same points

guess they did not went with PMC but full model count, so you should get more out of the boxes than recommended in the lists

well I thought about the Ogre one to go along with the Ogre part from the 2 player set
but the Goblin one looks too good, specially as the chariots are the same for ogres anyway (though I did not planned to use them)

The goblin set has had one of the images pulled, and the mincer mob description says it's a troop, which means 2 of them rather than 3.

On the plus side, Mantic confirmed on facebook that it comes with all the parts needed to alternatively make a chariot out of it.

Still pretty great value in that set even with one less mincer model.

The chariots are going to be useful for a lot of stuff, with enough room on the back for a 40mm base you can paint it up and it'll work for loads of different purposes, goblins, orcs, ogres, beastmen etc. just swap out the rider models each time.

the Goblin Box is still great, also for expanding Ogres from the 2 player set

going thru the unit listed, those are all 330/350 points of models, depending if artifacts are used and can make more with PMC and using the parts to build a hero