Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK we've had the new C:CSM for almost a month now and I was wondering what people thought of it. Has chaos been balanced or nerfed back to the stone age?
For starters, I like what's been done with the basic CSM. for an extra point they now have frags, kraks and 2ccw, but now must have larger squads for a heavy weapon or two specials. I think it's worth it, Havocs with 2 attacks can be charged and still put up a good fight.

*I apologise if a similar topic exists, but i'm too lazy to check*

my feelings on the codex is ......

less options- which sucks

nudered deamons- which really sucks if you were a deamony kinda player

but as far as everything else go's im pretty happy with it, i do like having plague marines thousand sons nosie marines and berzerkers as troops while still leaving basic mairnes around. i think it will lead to new kinds of lists flying round. and 1ks sons kick so much @$$ its awsome!!!!!

the vindicator will make some people out there pretty happy

abbadon is actually pretty scary

cheaper rhinos and land raider is a bonus (only downside is no more fire control)

but all in all im cool with it and be a happy chaos player!

I pretty much agree with all of that, except I think abbadon costs too much. But im probably just stingy.
Hopefully they'll fix those daemons with the daemon 'dex, I want PLAGUEBEARERS, not generic lesser daemons.
The vindicator has made ME happy. S10 AP2 ordnance Pie plate!!! is there nothing it can't do?

BTW, what do you mean by "fire control"?

Being able to split fire.

chaos land raider used to be able to shoot at multiple targets

I wish HQ's could take terminator retinues. *pout*

I thoguht you COULD take terminator retinues. I mean, there's nothing that's technically a retinue in there, terminator or otherwise, but you can have a 4 man termie squad plus a lord. And really, with all the stuff that takes up no space on the FoC, who cares if they don't count as one choice? Just my opinion.

Also, as much as I hate the fewer choices, it's nice that it's straight forward.

p.s. nude red daemons? Like bloodletters?

Um, not to be rude, but a search would really do you a lot of good. It's clear that this thread is just going to be a rehash of complaints and justifications by people who weren't in the first thread on it. Why not hunt down H.B.M.C's review first? Then you can find new things to complain about--I'm sure there are plenty left.

Here you go.

Search sucks, though.

Posted By malfred on 10/14/2007 2:00 PM
Here you go.

Search sucks, though.

And good luck.  We'll send out a search party if you're not back within three days.

Thanks.

When it comes down to it, I don't mind the new book. It's gotten me back to my Chaos and painting new things, which is always good no matter the reason. But that said I don't love the new book. My gripes come down to really a few things ...

- Lack of options, even just small things that cost 5-10 points that I can fill a list out with to add flavor
- Lack of any rerolls for chaos lords, absurd that spiky bits and master-crafting are both gone, leaving other characters with warptime the only options if you want combat reroll lovin'
- Lack of +1A for terminator armor, which is so boneheaded it hurts (cost would have to go up 10 points to match loyalists, but I'd gladly pay it!)
- Lack of specific demons, even just stat boosts like 2 codex ago, though I'm surviving wihout my demonettes, even if I thought I couldn't

So 75% of my complaints revolve around the limitations placed on chaos lords, particularly terminator ones (which should be the new hotness with that new kit going around!). Ah well.

- Salvage

I think Chaos is still a viable army. You have to look for the good deals and not blow a lot of points on unnecessary stuff. The Chaos Space Marine with MoU/Glory is a great deal. I think Fabius has a lot more potential now - one good combination would be Chaos Space Marines with MoS and juiced up by Bile Inc. MoS is pretty cheap now and very worthwhile. The greater deamon is also well worth the points. Sure he is not that fast but for the points he can do a lot of damage if you can get him in a tussle. I am also liking a Deamon Prince with MoT, wings, WT and WoC. Terminators are well worth the points and if you take a large squad then MoT really helps. Transports are much cheaper now so I am thinking a mechanized list will work.

- G

I think it's the first time ever when a new codex is worse than the previous incarnation - which sadly is really sad.

Extra sad given how positive a person I am.

The new codex is sad.

I like the new codex. Overall I think it's better then the last one, However I do miss some of the wargear Options and generic Deamons are just not enough. You should have been able to mark them.

High points of the Codex in my opinion are,
Using WS to show that Chaos Lords and Berzerkers are badasses.
Cult troopers are now kickass.
It's much easier to make a Thematic army that does not suck.
It feels like everything is cheaper, points wise (although this is most likely because of the lack of Demonic Gifts sucking up points).
All the special Characters are kickass.

Teh DA codex stinks IMO... a tradegy really.

- G

I like Nurgle stuff, and the cost of an icon of Nurgle is a real pain. 50 pts for 1 measly Toughness! can someone please explain why that's worth more than a 5+ inv? But that's my only major grumble with the 'dex. (besides Daemons) BUT there is nurgle bikes/raptors/havocs now, even if they are an unreasonable cost.

I read the first 12 pages of that codex review/ Deconstruction thread. Is it just me or do lots of the veteran gamers hate change? They remind me of the stereotypical old folks who rant about how things were better back in their day.

Migsula, I think chaos needed a little nerfing (infiltrating speed lords with lightning claws and six or so daemonic abilities is WRONG) They could have kept a few more options methinks, look at the Tyranid codex. It's 4th Edition and you can do ANYTHING with it. But I do really like what's been done with the cult troops. FNP for plaguemarines is great.

I think the new codex is all good.

It makes life alot easier and still allows you to play most of the more common (and not broken) Chaos configs.

The only thing I don't like about the new codexes (codeci?) is the removal of restrictions on the use of special characters.

.... I'm bringing one of the Pheonix Lords, or Ahriman to a 1000pt game.

As for deamons .... I've never seen one on the field.

On the other hand I'm fairly new to 40k, all I have is 1000pts of chaos. If I had wanted to field Abaddon under the old rules I would need to almost double my army before I could even take him. Now a new player can field Abaddon in a 500 point army should he feel so inclined. Makes games a bit dodgy (In Theory, Haven't tried it) but there's less of people forking out for a massive army for the sake of a single character (again, in theory)

Have to take min Troops to get Ab, and rules for such things as combat patrol don't allow such characters

I still think there are some nasty options in the dex. Masses of cheap DSing terminators with marks are looking quite nasty.The Lash with combo is nasty. Terminator armour not giving +1 A meshes right along with DA and BA.

In a vacuum it's not a bad codex, but not great either. Compared to the old one it has a lot less, but time moves on. So far in playing against it with other armies, I have yet to feel the cheese as bad as the old one, which is nice.

Posted By Teh_K42 on 10/15/2007 11:56 PM
I like Nurgle stuff, and the cost of an icon of Nurgle is a real pain. 50 pts for 1 measly Toughness! can someone please explain why that's worth more than a 5+ inv?

I imagine it is based on how many attacks are affected.  Inv 5+ only kicks in if you don't get your normal save, which for most stuff in the dex is at 3+ or 2+, hence it only kicks in against a limited number of attacks. Extra T on the other hand which is mainly on T4 stuff kicks in against any attack from str 3 - 6, which is an awful lot of weapons that you'd expect to see being fired at infantry.

The best anti-MEQ weapons are usually S8 AP3 and S7 AP2. Neither of these weapons give a damn if you're T4 or T5.

It's not worth 50 points, not by a long shot.

BYE

As for my thoughts on the Chaos Codex now as opposed to when I wrote my review... well... I still hate it.

It is still the single most boring release GW has ever put out. It lacks flavour, character, and anything that makes me want to play Chaos ever again. The generic daemons are still a tragedy, are are the loss of Legion rules.

This is by no means to see that the Codex isn't powerful or competative. People often mistake my ire with the Codex for someone complaining that it isn't powerful. I don't give two $#!ts about the power of the Codex. It could be the most broken powerful Codex in the game, but I won't play it if the life's been sucked out of it.

The Chaos Codex has had the life sucked out of it. The book itself makes an excellent door-mat though, and makes an excellent frisbee.

BYE

Sadly, reading through the Chaos codex and trying things out has done the opposite to me. I am itching to start another Chaos force, Tzeentch.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/17/2007 2:17 PM

The best anti-MEQ weapons are usually S8 AP3 and S7 AP2. Neither of these weapons give a damn if you're T4 or T5.


BYE

whats that got to do with anything? when your 6 man las/plas squad points his plasma at me he also points 4 bolters at me, they don't give a damn about the inv save. Other armies don't exactly pack a lot of those weapons, and those that do again will often a have a lot of stuff also coming withit that gives a damn about T4 or T5.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/17/2007 2:25 PM
The book itself makes an excellent door-mat though, and makes an excellent frisbee.

BYE

I can see it might work as a door mat, but I'm struggling to see how it has similiar or better aerodynamics as a frisbie.

[edit: actually I take that back.  It doesn't make a good door mat either. Being paper it disintergrates quite rapidly when you wipe your feet on it, and without some mods to keep it closed it will open up between the foot lifting and coming back down and possibly trip you up or spin you round]

Most people play Marines, therefore, most players will have access to Plasma Guns (S7 AP2) and Missile Launchers (S8 AP3) and even Lascannons (S9 AP2). In the face of these weapons, T4(5) is meaningless, and simply not worth 50 points.

BYE

I helps against most Gauss Weapons. It's useful against Star Cannons (as most other Eldar weapons). It's huge against Pulse Rifles. Ditto for Splinter Cannons. We haven't seen unit breakdowns for Orks yet, so it's hard to say for them.

Whether it's worth 50 points depends on the mix of armies in your local environment. I don't think it's reasonable to make blanket statements since they're unlike to hold up in all environments. It's a fallacy that 100% of clubs have 50%+ Marine players.

I think generally speaking it's not worthwhile. It may be useful though in certain play environments.

The codex is a lame nerf festival.

I haven't bothered to play a game since it came out. I've asked for extra over time on Saturdays (the normal 40K day around here) instead.

I'll play a few games eventually... I'm painting Death Guard and 1K Sons right now. But I really don't have the interest in playing anymore.

I'm currently ebaying all of my warhammer stuff except for my Chaos marines and my Imperial Marines... and I'm seriously considering ebaying those and using the money to finish a Flames of War army.

Posted By Toreador on 10/17/2007 2:57 PM
Sadly, reading through the Chaos codex and trying things out has done the opposite to me. I am itching to start another Chaos force, Tzeentch.

as some-one you plays and collects all of the chaos legions, Tzeentch finally got the boost it needed.

It's awesome (powerful) now compared to terrible.  But maybe too much of a swing.