Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At least it looks like an army rather than a mess, or a freak show, these people complaining about theming are likely the same ones that cant paint to save thier lives. By the way you only enforced my point that dakka is full of sarcasm, why do you feel the need to be sarcastic. Are you trying to be like the fat guys from the simpsons? Give a direct response or shut up, your not clever or funny.

Except it seems there's absolutely nothing prevent exactly what you're complaining about; last I checked Chaos doesn't get along too well with each other, and yet you can fill your army out with various troops dedicated to the Four Gods without problem. It'd be even more of a circus with Slaanesh Space Marines fighting alongside a Tzeetch Sorcerer.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 6:35 PM

At least previously you had some in-game incentive to play a "pure" army.  But now?

And that incentive invariably was used and abused.  I saw many World Eaters & Emperors Children, because there the incentives were "good".  In 1kSons or Death Guard, the incentives gave very little in the way.

People played for theme, and can have that theme still.

In the old codex Thousand Sons sucked, but I could still make a nice fluffy Thousand Sons army with rubric terminators and sorcerer lords and sorcerer chosen.  I can't do that anymore.  If I try to build a Thousand Sons army using the new codex I find that I run out of choices the moment I look outside of the Troops section of the army list.  Sure, I can field a "Tzeentch-themed" army with Thousand Sons squads, but if I can't field a Thousand Sons army.  It seems my "theme" has been significantly watered-down.

I find this to be a giant misnomer. 

So if I wasn't playing 1kSons before, but I wanted Tzeench worshiping Terminators, I got "Rubric Terminators" who counted as Tzeench Terminators.

How come it's so hard to go the other way now?   Just because it doesn't explicitly say "1kSons Terminators" doesn't mean that they're not following the rules for Tzeench Terminators, just like before.

You still have rules that represent your army's background.  Much like the new renegade legion n00bzors0fChange that worships Tzeench used to always somehow become slow and purposeful and get two wounds under the new Codex, so does now the 1kSons get the ability to move fully in their terminator armor and instead of 2 Wounds, now gets a great Inv. save just like their brothers in Power Armor.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 6:35 PM

Putting effectiveness aside, the old codex contained 9 different fluffy army lists.  There were 4 different kinds of Death Guard squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs), 4 different kinds of Thousand Sons squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Rubric Terminators), 4 different kinds of World Eaters squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers), and 5 different kinds of Emperor's Children squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, Havocs).  Now there are 1 each.  And no, squads with an Icon are not the same as cult squads (Tzeentch terminators are neither sorcerers nor rubrics, Khorne bikers are not Fearless, Slaanesh havocs can't take sonic weapons, etc).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely fluffy armies the new codex is a failure.

The old codex contained a number of strong builds.  Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and, of course, Iron Warriors could all build very competitive lists.  Now there is one strong build (Fzorgle).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely competitive armies the new codex is a failure.

On the other hand Black Legion armies got a whole lot more varied - Black Legion can take all sorts of marked non-cult squads.  This shouldn't be surprising considering the single army list in the codex is basically the Black Legion list.  The new codex could be considered a fairly successful Codex: Black Legion.  But as a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the new codex is a dismal failure.

Those were hardly army lists.  The most you got in terms of new units was Alpha Legion with cultists.  Everything else just gave you restrictions and or bonuses for certain unit types that already existed.  Slaanesh was arguably the most divergent giving new weapon types out to their troops.  Though it was kind of odd how every slaaneshi cult somehow got sonic weapons.

Regardless, for the most part your list is serviceable, especially if you're looking at it from a "Themed" perspective.  Theme has little to do with special rules and a lot to do with composition. 

When I play my tournament Marines, I'm not playing "Ultramarines".  I'm playing Min/Maxed SAFH Marines, that happen to be painted blue with gold trim and a big old U on their shoulders. 

It's not till I start taking 10 Man Squads, sargents, transports, and following the fluff and composition that I start really playing "Ultramarines", despite the fact that I'm well within the established rules for the army in both configurations.

YES - I think they made mistakes with the codex.
YES - They invalidated models and armies (LATD, Sonic Marines)
YES - They simplified demons way, way too much

But to sit here and state that for the majority of Chaos players that the codex is ruined and lacks character then you're going too far.   About the only thing I can see lacking Character are the Demons and that's about where it ends.

Posted By syr8766 on 10/23/2007 6:42 PM
Why is it that everyone's excited about the Ork Codex and so many were down on Chaos? Because the Orks list kept a lot of the options, and brought back some old favorites (Shokk Attack Gun?). That meant they even kept a bunch of units that were always--and continue to be--less than effective. Can you build a strong list? Sure, but the Ork players are happy that they can field models they've had for years as the models they represent.

The chaos players are unhappy for the opposite reasons: their specific daemons with their specific abilities, their cult lists, their wacky legion themed armies are now generic. Everything is the same. No variation. Yes, you can still field daemons, and cult troops, but they've not been maintained in character any way like the Ork boyz have been.

Orks needed a fix; they were underpowered. Chaos needed a fix; they were overpowered. But there was a way to do it without losing the flavor, and GW blew it.

For the most part, I see people being excited about the Ork codex again because of the fact that it now looks like Orks are no longer going to suck. 

In fact it looks like Orks are going to be a horde army, that will stay being a horde army for it's most effective builds.  Unlike say, Nids.

There are in fact quite a few things wrong with what you've said.  Models they've fielded for years as what they represent?  My Skarboyz are in the dex? My Cyborks are in there?  My 3 Squads of 'Ard Boyz?

Nope, nada, zilch.

All some varient of slugga boyz now, or limited drastically in the last case of the 'Ard Boyz.

Looted tanks?  Nope, Battlewagons now, with drastically different guns.  I'm converting up a Basalisk and normal Russ to look more Orkified and battlewagon-ish.

Am I really upset? No.  Because they're going to be much more effective now, and it'll be a fun modeling project.

Slugga Boyz?  HAH! They're going to be marginalized to Trukk mobs and even then they're not all that anymore.  The hordes and hordes of Slugga based models people own are going to become the new sub-optimal choice now that Shoota Boyz are going to be the foshizzle of the new dex.

The entire army is going to change completely in how it runs effectively.

Bikes? New models, still looks like crappy rules.  Dethkoptas? No models yet. 

Old stuff that was useless before like Lootas? Now looking to be a staple in lists.

Klans? GONE.  "Just another paint job on my Orks".  Do you hear Ork players demanding that we get a "Codex: Kult of Speed" or "Codex: Goffs" because they are wildly different Ork klanz and suddenly it's going to be effective to take Ghazgull with lots of trukk mobs and Zaagstrukk? 

No.  Why? Because now it looks like the rules are going to be good, they'll be fun to play, and the character of the army, is unchanged for the most part.  Their fluff, their models, the draw that so many people like about them is staying the same while the rules for the army are getting much better.  In fact they look like they're about to get a fair serving of the "Phil Kelly Nugget of Broken", and people are going nuts.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I read "I'd like to start Orks but their rules put me off" or "I'll start Orks when they get a new Codex".  Which basically means "Orks are cool but good god they suck, give them some decent rules and I'll model them up!"

That's why people are so excited about the new Orks. At least that's what it seems like to me, as someone who wasn't around when the "Shokk attack gun" was all the rage in 2nd Ed.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 7:43 PM
At least it looks like an army rather than a mess, or a freak show, these people complaining about theming are likely the same ones that cant paint to save thier lives. By the way you only enforced my point that dakka is full of sarcasm, why do you feel the need to be sarcastic. Are you trying to be like the fat guys from the simpsons? Give a direct response or shut up, your not clever or funny.

What do their complaints about the quality of a codex have to do with their
ability to paint, or their gaming conduct? Your claims about them are unwarranted
and they are also personal attacks.

You're arguing that paint theming is important. That's true. But I think the people
who are clamoring for in-game options that don't necessarily just have to do
with "same color" models want options to inspire them to convert. The Codex
doesn't work with Chaos because the way the background is themed the different
Chaos Gods have their own specific types of followers that are represented by
the different options of marines. Making it possible to use all those different
faction fighters in a single army, even with a single paint job, does not inspire
people to buy Chaos products.

Maybe we've gone too far with the DIY mentality. Every army has to be a unique
and beautiful snowflake or else we're not interested. Every army has to be special
and more important than other people's kids, I mean armies. But I feel like that's
how GW's made its money in third edition, they sold customization. They made
rulesets that encouraged people to buy more than they needed and convert an
army, a circus if you will, that represented their own unique creations.

Or maybe I'm looking at a different game.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 8:43 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 6:35 PM

At least previously you had some in-game incentive to play a "pure" army.  But now?

And that incentive invariably was used and abused.

So?  It was fluffy.  What's wrong with rules that reward you for playing according to the fluff?  Isn't that what rules are supposed to do?  Now if you were objecting solely on the grounds that they were unbalanced, then all I can say to you is "welcome to the Games Workshop Hobby™!"  GW has proven time and again that when it comes to writing balanced rules they can't tell their heads from their asses.  Yes, it's true - fewer options mean fewer opportunities for showcasing their incompetence.  But if that's their solution then we're gonna end up playing Checkers 40,000 before we get a balanced game.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 8:43 PM
So if I wasn't playing 1kSons before, but I wanted Tzeench worshiping Terminators, I got "Rubric Terminators" who counted as Tzeench Terminators.

Or you could have fielded Terminator Chosen who, while not very good value for the pts, were perfectly good representatives of generic Tzeentch Terminators.  But this begs the question - why couldn't we have both?  Just change the old MoT to grant Terminators +1 inv save instead of Sorcerer.  Why does that necessitate the removal of Rubric Terminators?

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 8:43 PM
Regardless, for the most part your list is serviceable, especially if you're looking at it from a "Themed" perspective.  Theme has little to do with special rules and a lot to do with composition.

Really?  Well what if I wanted my theme to be "slow and purposeful rubric marines led by sorcerers"?  The only sorcerer-led Slow & Purposeful rubric marine unit is the Thousand Sons Troops choice.  Sure I could take terminators and have them "count as" rubric terminators and just ignore the fact that they are neither Fearless nor Slow & Purposeful and their Aspiring Champion has no psychic powers.  But at that point I might as well just take vanilla CSMs as Troops and have them "count as" Thousand Sons, just for the sake of consistency.

Of course if I want to be fluffy and take 9-man squads then I can't take heavy weapons.  Well if I'm doing a "counts as" army anyway then why stick to the Chaos codex at all?  So maybe I'll just use the loyalist list and have the heavy weapon "count as" a psychic power.  It's not as if CSMs make appreciably better rubric marines than loyalist SMs, right?  And now that Tzeentch sorcerers have to take psychic tests they've lost the only advantage they had over SM Librarians.  With better psychic powers and better psychic defenses Librarians are more powerful psykers in every way.  So if Thousand Sons are supposed to have the most powerful psykers in the Astartes then it's actually fluffier to use the loyalist codex for them.  Ah screw it - I'll just use the Necron codex and "counts as".  Hell, the Deciever makes a fluffier Thousand Sons daemon prince than anything in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So, yeah I can think of at least 2 other codices that allow me to build a better Thousand Sons "counts as" army than the new CSM codex.  IMHO that's qualifies it as a failure.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/24/2007 1:19 AM

Really?  Well what if I wanted my theme to be "slow and purposeful rubric marines led by sorcerers"?  The only sorcerer-led Slow & Purposeful rubric marine unit is the Thousand Sons Troops choice.  Sure I could take terminators and have them "count as" rubric terminators and just ignore the fact that they are neither Fearless nor Slow & Purposeful and their Aspiring Champion has no psychic powers.  But at that point I might as well just take vanilla CSMs as Troops and have them "count as" Thousand Sons, just for the sake of consistency.

Of course if I want to be fluffy and take 9-man squads then I can't take heavy weapons.  Well if I'm doing a "counts as" army anyway then why stick to the Chaos codex at all?  So maybe I'll just use the loyalist list and have the heavy weapon "count as" a psychic power.  It's not as if CSMs make appreciably better rubric marines than loyalist SMs, right?  And now that Tzeentch sorcerers have to take psychic tests they've lost the only advantage they had over SM Librarians.  With better psychic powers and better psychic defenses Librarians are more powerful psykers in every way.  So if Thousand Sons are supposed to have the most powerful psykers in the Astartes then it's actually fluffier to use the loyalist codex for them.  Ah screw it - I'll just use the Necron codex and "counts as".  Hell, the Deciever makes a fluffier Thousand Sons daemon prince than anything in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So, yeah I can think of at least 2 other codices that allow me to build a better Thousand Sons "counts as" army than the new CSM codex.  IMHO that's qualifies it as a failure.

I agree, it counts as a failure. The new Codex: CSM is a failure as Codex: Thousand Sons. Whether or not it is a failure as Codex: Random Warbands Containing Troops From Half A Dozen Chaos Chapters (which I feel is a fair assessment of the slant of the list) is another matter entirely.

Imperial Marines shouldn't excel at psionics, that much I do agree with. Then again, the entire game is really a work of Space Marine fanfiction. They're the Gary Sues making everyone else look like gimps.

smart_alex, you need to stop with the personal attacks (calling people clowns, telling people to shut up).  If you don't like someone's idea, argue against the idea.  You're coming across as juvenile and immature, and you're not helping your cause at all. 

You also seem to be taking this personally; I'm not sure why.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 6:02 PM
 I rather go out and enjoy life than sit in here and waste my time. These forums are just like the game somtimes, EXTREMELY broken and filled with people whose lives revolve around em.

Don't let the door hit your rear on the way out.  Seriosuly, argue the point on its merits without the insults (same to the other side of course).

Admittedly I've only read the new codex twice, but why can't you?  Lets go with Slaanesh because I was looking at that more.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the only difference the sonic weaponry? Both cult and non-cult get the +1 Init.

Prince with Mark and nice Slaanesh instakill demon weapon

Termies with Slaanesh mark

Troops-cult

FA-(sorry can't remember-old IW players don't know what FA is...)

Heavy support-the usual suspects.

How would an all cult list be substantially different?

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/24/2007 1:19 AM

So?  It was fluffy.  What's wrong with rules that reward you for playing according to the fluff?  Isn't that what rules are supposed to do?  Now if you were objecting solely on the grounds that they were unbalanced, then all I can say to you is "welcome to the Games Workshop Hobby™!"  GW has proven time and again that when it comes to writing balanced rules they can't tell their heads from their asses.  Yes, it's true - fewer options mean fewer opportunities for showcasing their incompetence.  But if that's their solution then we're gonna end up playing Checkers 40,000 before we get a balanced game.

So when rules based on Fluff make X better than Y, because the fluff for X happens to translate into better game terms than Y does, then it's a problem.

Should I be rewarded for getting 10 Man squads for my Ultramarines? Hey I'm following the fluff! Shouldn't I be rewarded? 

If you want to have squad numbers based on  fluff then do so, you shouldn't get willynilly benefits for it.  All the old rules did was reward people for liking Slaanesh or Khorne, instead of Tzeench or Nurgle.  It was a prime example of something rules wise that went amiss in execution in that dex.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/24/2007 1:19 AM
Or you could have fielded Terminator Chosen who, while not very good value for the pts, were perfectly good representatives of generic Tzeentch Terminators.  But this begs the question - why couldn't we have both?  Just change the old MoT to grant Terminators +1 inv save instead of Sorcerer.  Why does that necessitate the removal of Rubric Terminators?

Because they were somewhat redundant?  This is one of the examples where Tzeench players lost an option.  And it is one area I probably agree with you (like with Sonic terminators, etc), where it is a mistake by GW.  While an oversight, Tzeench terminators as they stand now are still good and are serviceable substitutes for your models. 

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/24/2007 1:19 AM

Really?  Well what if I wanted my theme to be "slow and purposeful rubric marines led by sorcerers"?  The only sorcerer-led Slow & Purposeful rubric marine unit is the Thousand Sons Troops choice.  Sure I could take terminators and have them "count as" rubric terminators and just ignore the fact that they are neither Fearless nor Slow & Purposeful and their Aspiring Champion has no psychic powers.  But at that point I might as well just take vanilla CSMs as Troops and have them "count as" Thousand Sons, just for the sake of consistency.

Of course if I want to be fluffy and take 9-man squads then I can't take heavy weapons.  Well if I'm doing a "counts as" army anyway then why stick to the Chaos codex at all?  So maybe I'll just use the loyalist list and have the heavy weapon "count as" a psychic power.  It's not as if CSMs make appreciably better rubric marines than loyalist SMs, right?  And now that Tzeentch sorcerers have to take psychic tests they've lost the only advantage they had over SM Librarians.  With better psychic powers and better psychic defenses Librarians are more powerful psykers in every way.  So if Thousand Sons are supposed to have the most powerful psykers in the Astartes then it's actually fluffier to use the loyalist codex for them.  Ah screw it - I'll just use the Necron codex and "counts as".  Hell, the Deciever makes a fluffier Thousand Sons daemon prince than anything in Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

So, yeah I can think of at least 2 other codices that allow me to build a better Thousand Sons "counts as" army than the new CSM codex.  IMHO that's qualifies it as a failure.

Your theme is based around USR's? (Slow & Purposeful/led by Sorcerers?).  Regardless, your loss is slow & purposeful & a squad sorcerer upgrade.  Two things that were lost for Tzeench Players.  Yes, it was a mistake of losing something that was in the old codex.  Perhaps they felt it was redundant or under utilized, or they didn't want psychers running around in Termy squads?  Reguardless I'll agree it's a mistake, though the Tzeench Terminators are still quite usable as models and are "better" in terms of performance.  But yes, this is one case where you lost a piece of fluff driven rules.

Not the case for Khorne Terminators, or Nurgle, or in the case of Slaanesh, unless you were playing an EC army with Sonic weapons on your terminators, which is another loss.

Your examples of using other codex's for "counts-as" are just you being willfully oblivious.  You lost Sorcerers in Terminator squads.  You still have better psychers than other astartes because of the ones in your 1kSons squads, and as HQ or as the Demon Prince.  

What you are ignoring is the fact that you can take Bikes or Raptors, which can represent 1KSons units that used to fill those roles, and the "AC" is the sorcerer commanding them, but takes too much concentration to control their automations that they can't use psychic powers. 

Your complaints about failings compared to Librarians or the fact that you can't auto-cast anymore are related to in-game performance compared to other armies, not so much in terms of fluff representation.  You've got powerful sorcerers, they have access to powers that are much more potent or damaging than anything the SM libby can take save one broken power (FOTD).  Funny you should compare the sorcerers to a SM librarian who is considered to be too good for his points, as opposed to say a Dark Angels librarian, who pretty much blows.

The end point is that while you did lose some fluffy and characterful rules, you very much still have a decent codex that can represent Chaos as the fluff depicts it better than anything else.

It's certainly not like you can't build a fun and themed force for a patron god or legion from the current codex, albeit it won't be as effective or the advantages of such a selection as unique to that army anymore. 

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 7:43 PM
At least it looks like an army rather than a mess, or a freak show, these people complaining about theming are likely the same ones that cant paint to save thier lives. By the way you only enforced my point that dakka is full of sarcasm, why do you feel the need to be sarcastic. Are you trying to be like the fat guys from the simpsons? Give a direct response or shut up, your not clever or funny.

Direct response: Your posts long ago lost any semblance of reasoned argument and have degenerated into petty whining.  Stop it.

1) Learn to spell, and use proper grammar.  Put apostrophes in the proper places, and don't confuse the possesive your with the contraction you're, or the contraction they're with the possesive their or the adverb there.  A well-written post is easier to read, and might make you look less like a petulant 12-year-old.

2) I am being sarcastic because sarcasm is the appropriate response to someone who is taking himself  too seriously.  Your definition of a themed army seems to be merely 'one that has a matching paint scheme'.  This is silly.  There are many armies out there that are well-painted with matching uniforms and bases, but that does not mean those armies have a theme.   

Worse, you are ridiculing players who have a different definition, such as 'a list designed with a back-story in mind' , as in 'Inquisitorial Witch-Hunting Team with Commandeered Guard allies' or 'Daemon-world Chaos Renegade Pirates', and try to choose the units in their force to follow that theme.  What if my army was meant to represent the forces of a crusading, heretic Eccleisiarch, with companies drawn from a hundred worlds?   Even if it were well-painted, each model a gem, the overall look would be rag-tag and mismatched.  It would certainly look like a mess rather than an army, but that would be totally in keeping with my theme.

You are welcome to your narrow and petty definition, but if you insist on displaying your nonsensical viewpoint to the wider gaming community, don't expect your opinions to be treated with respect.  Especially don't use sarcasm yourself (and what is calling armies a circus, a freak show, but sarcasm?- and clever, amusing sarcasm at that) and then get huffy when some gets aimed back at you.  That is called being a hypocrite, and on dakka it tends to get you dogpiled and your ickle feelings hurt.

3) There is only one Fat Guy on the Simpsons.

Talk about being late to the party. I just got the Chaos Marine codex yesterday, due to being in the middle of East Nowhere. Much to my surprise, I like it.

But then I like the idea of simplified codexes. I think there should have been more in the way of wargear and gifts for the Lord and Daemon Prince, but in general I like the more modular approach to army lists. Of course it sucks to have your modular Dark Angels go against 6-man Space Marine las/plas squads, but this will all be straightened out in the fullness of time.

I am also a sucker for pretty color pictures of different uniform schemes.

I also assume I'll be getting specific daemons back later. So generic summoned daemons don't bother me.

Like the man said, I think it's a good Chaos Renegade book. Which is annoying if you want a Chaos Legion book, but with the exception of the Iron Warriors my old legion lists actually fit pretty well. They probably won't WORK as well, but then they were never meant to be killer tourney lists anyway.

Abba, I can see why you're pissed about losing Rubric terminators, but IMO it's a little odd to be complaining on behalf of Thousand Sons fans. I had no interest in playing the Rubric Deadweight Sons With Mega Sorceror Attached list, which according to Dakka was the one competitive Sons build. So to me the new 1000 Sons actually look kind of viable and therefore interesting to play. *shrug*

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 6:35 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

So? You could do that before too you know, and nothing stopped you.

That was my point.  smart_alex was contrasting the old codex with the new one, saying that the old one encouraged "circus" builds.  My point was that the new one does the same thing, only moreso.  At least previously you had some in-game incentive to play a "pure" army.  But now?

Actually you couldn't have done the above list. You would have needed troops, those were all elites or fast. As well no raptors if led by a slaanesh marked lord. Just saying.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
I suspect that we'd here a lot of *female dog*ing still if we had "generic demons" that could be marked to give you:

+1T for Plaguebearers
+1I for Demonettes
+1A for Bloodletters
4+ Inv Save for Horrors

Each mark costs +2 Points per model.  Then they'd be different, but still mediocre.  Would you still be here complaining about it?

Yes, and the complaint would be the same.  There should be more differences between a Daemonette and a Bloodletter than a mere ±1I or ±1A.  However, that still would have been preferable to what we actually got.

Kinda sad when even the first 3rd ed codex had more distinction between daemon types.

 

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
What I don't see as a failing is the little itty benefits or restrictions that the old rules placed on you for "theme", where as now the same "theme" can be replicated in many instances.

In the old codex Thousand Sons sucked, but I could still make a nice fluffy Thousand Sons army with rubric terminators and sorcerer lords and sorcerer chosen.  I can't do that anymore.  If I try to build a Thousand Sons army using the new codex I find that I run out of choices the moment I look outside of the Troops section of the army list.  Sure, I can field a "Tzeentch-themed" army with Thousand Sons squads, but if I can't field a Thousand Sons army.  It seems my "theme" has been significantly watered-down.

Putting effectiveness aside, the old codex contained 9 different fluffy army lists.  There were 4 different kinds of Death Guard squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs), 4 different kinds of Thousand Sons squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Rubric Terminators), 4 different kinds of World Eaters squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers), and 5 different kinds of Emperor's Children squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, Havocs).  Now there are 1 each.  And no, squads with an Icon are not the same as cult squads (Tzeentch terminators are neither sorcerers nor rubrics, Khorne bikers are not Fearless, Slaanesh havocs can't take sonic weapons, etc).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely fluffy armies the new codex is a failure.

The old codex contained a number of strong builds.  Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and, of course, Iron Warriors could all build very competitive lists.  Now there is one strong build (Fzorgle).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely competitive armies the new codex is a failure.

As a longtime Chaos player I'm frustrated. I spent an unreasonable amount of money building a chaos army, and painted them as word bearers, and had a mixed army. Then the IA articles came and the army ceased to be an all powers force but rather an undivided list which used a lot of (very weak) daemons, so I played as undivided putting myu cult troops aside. The new book came out and I expanded my cult troops into another three armies, and picked up a huge number and variety of daemons (thankfully I play some fantasy). Now there are no more wordbearers and I'm back where I started with a single army. THe themes are collapsed because they all had specialty gear which doesn't exist, or used the now worthless daemons to pump them up. I have a good strongly bland chaos army where Tzeentch Slaanesh and Khorne will march side by side with undivided gunners in the rear. Sad.

On the other hand Black Legion armies got a whole lot more varied - Black Legion can take all sorts of marked non-cult squads.  This shouldn't be surprising considering the single army list in the codex is basically the Black Legion list.  The new codex could be considered a fairly successful Codex: Black Legion.  But as a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the new codex is a dismal failure.

Yes.

The only way to truly define theme is any army built around a particular concept. 40k has become so muddled through 3rd Edition that there is now an attitude that you have to have rules for every theme or slightly differing armies under the sun. The problem with that philosophy is that in the context of an army list it is incredibly difficult to present the players with as many options that they want and not have balance issues. Can you think of any other miniature game that presents as many options as 40k does?

Like I have said, in my mind the codex is a success, if not for simply the fact that you can use any choice in the list and not be punished for it. The list is still diverse enough in it's unit selections and options that building around concepts (i.e. theme) like the varying different legions, is still very doable and can make for many different competitive lists.

The codex is not perfect, there are still a couple of power builds out of it. But in my mind it is a success in what it accomplishes. Now lets give GW time to get the rest of the forces of choas their own book.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 8:56 PM


Bikes? New models, still looks like crappy rules.  Dethkoptas? No models yet. 

Really, I have three.

Klans? GONE.  "Just another paint job on my Orks".  Do you hear Ork players demanding that we get a "Codex: Kult of Speed" or "Codex: Goffs" because they are wildly different Ork klanz and suddenly it's going to be effective to take Ghazgull with lots of trukk mobs and Zaagstrukk? 

They have never been very different though. The chaos legions were very different. Now they are not.

No.  Why? Because now it looks like the rules are going to be good, they'll be fun to play, and the character of the army, is unchanged for the most part.  Their fluff, their models, the draw that so many people like about them is staying the same while the rules for the army are getting much better.  In fact they look like they're about to get a fair serving of the "Phil Kelly Nugget of Broken", and people are going nuts.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I read "I'd like to start Orks but their rules put me off" or "I'll start Orks when they get a new Codex".  Which basically means "Orks are cool but good god they suck, give them some decent rules and I'll model them up!"

That's why people are so excited about the new Orks. At least that's what it seems like to me, as someone who wasn't around when the "Shokk attack gun" was all the rage in 2nd Ed.

I think when its all on the table people will still go meh, in the end.

Posted By Mahu on 10/24/2007 7:09 AM
The only way to truly define theme is any army built around a particular concept. 40k has become so muddled through 3rd Edition that there is now an attitude that you have to have rules for every theme or slightly differing armies under the sun. The problem with that philosophy is that in the context of an army list it is incredibly difficult to present the players with as many options that they want and not have balance issues. Can you think of any other miniature game that presents as many options as 40k does?

Like I have said, in my mind the codex is a success, if not for simply the fact that you can use any choice in the list and not be punished for it. The list is still diverse enough in it's unit selections and options that building around concepts (i.e. theme) like the varying different legions, is still very doable and can make for many different competitive lists.

The codex is not perfect, there are still a couple of power builds out of it. But in my mind it is a success in what it accomplishes. Now lets give GW time to get the rest of the forces of choas their own book.

Really. Tell me what variation your seeing or hearing about, in good lists.

I'll tell you in order the units you are least likely to see.

Lesser deamons- Less said = better

Spawn- No one can convince me a slow and porpuseful model with three wounds and no armour is any good at all atr that price.

Possessed- 4 points less than a terminator for a random ability, Nope.

Dreadnaughts- Oh good, they kill thier own troops again. Just what I wanted another  random factor, in the crowded elites section...

Havocs- Relative to the other heavy support, why bother? Other choices are much better (Obis and vindicators).

Noise Marines (with guns)- As usual initiative is over valued on basic troopers. In particular on troops meant to be equiped with heavy weapons.

Bikers- Too expensive, More expensive then BA bikers who get a champion. In particular when cheapness of raptors is factored in.

Chaos marines- Requiring ten to get a heavy makes these guys the losers of the troops section. If you want a heavy in your troops use noise marines and only take a blast master = 140 points for a better heavy weapon at any rate.

Predators- almost good enough to make my not often list, but overpriced lascannons limit it's usefulness.

 

Units you will see

Fzorgle Princes-  Love em or hate they will be king.

Obliterators- staple of iron warriors list now in Heavy support. Still worth it.

Chosen with stupid numbers of special  weapons.

Terminators- cheap cheap terminators, just in time for new models to be released. If only they put that thought into the possessed.

All cult troops other then slaanesh with guns- The only veteran skills left in the army, relatively cheap.

Raptors- cheaper then assault marines same stats.

vindicators- the only tank that wins on the heavy support list.

 

Units that will pop up from time to time

Defiler- meh other heavys are better

Land raider- as above

Slaanesh without guns

Sorcerer- maybe the slaanesh version will be more common. Psyker rules make the tzeentch model a bit of a waste. 

Lord- Can be killed by any chump with a fist, only has a 3+ save, weapon malfunctions up to twice a game. not very good at all, but still not such a complete loser I'd put him in the rarely see list.

 

I ignored the special characters, as most are broken enough to make them worthy of use.

 

edit: To be fair, some people will use the units from the first list, and claim they are great. These however are, for the most part, the same people who believe striking scorpians are still the best assault unit in the eldar. They may still believe in Santa, as well .

How truly different are the Legions that the necessitate their own rules. Let's really look at them:

Alpha Legion - Experts in Infiltration and Cultists. They probably got the shortest end of the stick but what is stopping you from taking multiple chosen units (that infiltrate), CSM squads, Deamon Princes, and Havocs with the Icon of Undivided. Decent army, with a good amount of shooting and play to their theme as much as possible.

Word Bearers - Fanatical religious nuts that love deamons. They can play just like before, take multiple units (at least 4) of the generic deamons, CSM in Rhinos, Bikers, GD, Deamon Prince, Lord and play the old deamon bomb. Can be an effective list if you use the amount of generic deamons to tie up squads for elite CC elements like Terminators, Possessed, or Chosen.

Iron Warriors - Less deamons more siege. Essentially it all comes down to their heavy support choices, max oblitorators, couple of vindicators and predators, Havocs. Any one of them would do. Combine that with the usual suspects like CSM in rhinos, chosen, Terminators etc. and you can still capture their style.

Night Lords - Scare tactics and raptors, oh my! Easily take three units of raptors, combine that with CSM in rhinos, Generic Deamons, Winged Deamon Princes, and you have a pretty decent list that is fast and can get to you quickly.

Emporer's Children - Multple units of Noise Marines, back by Deamon Princes, Armored Support, and generic deamons, plays them similar to before.

World Eaters - I was talking to a fried about this one, you could really do a crazy charge at you type army. Chaos Lords, Terminators, and Generic Deamons can pop in off of Berserkers in Rhinos, Bikers, and crazy charging Defilers.

Thousand Sons - Multiple units of either mounted or walking Thousand Sons with durable Terminators, DP, Sorcerors, and Generic Deamons providing shooting and assault support, backed by Predators, Vindicators, etc.

Death Guard - Multiple Plague Marines back by Deamon Princes, GD, Generic Deamons, Defilers, Bikers, Predators, etc.


There you go, a way to field 8 different competitive armies that match the theme of the Legion in question using the same list.

Posted By Mahu on 10/24/2007 7:09 AM

 Now lets give GW time to get the rest of the forces of choas their own book.

I think the nay-sayers' argument is, in a nutshell, "I hate to wait". 

And who came blame them, given Games Workshop's track record?  There is no guarantee that the rumored codex daemonica will even address their concerns, let alone fix the perceived problems.

So stop being the voice of reason!

Lesser deamons are totally worth it. Putting a model with a Marine stat. line at less points, that can guarantee an assault 12" from the Icon and is fearless. Yes, please. Esspecially if I need a unit that can tie up anything in close combat long enough for Terminators and DP's to get some fun.



It's not that they are good on an individual basis. It's more that they are good when you take 15+ of them. I have seen the new Spawn Spam, and it is dangerous. There is simple not enough high rate of fire guns per the target saturation that you would see to take them all down, and you still have points to take a bunch nasty units to assault the enemy.



The best use I have seen from them is riding in the cheaper Land Raider. They are cheaper than Terminators and you can cram more into a Land Raider. In that set-up there is really only one bad roll you can make for them and that is the scouts roll. But between, Feel no pain, Fleet, Rending, Power Weapons, all work well in that set-up. Plus, it is my opinion that 26 points for a marine with +1 attack, +1 toughness, and 5+ invulnerable save is still a decent deal if not the best. That statline is only marginally worst than a terminator one, and they are marginally cheaper. The random ability I see as icing on the proverbial cake.



They are one of the least effective choices in the codex, but can still find some use.



Because they can be more survivable than one model creatures that can be instakilled (oblits) and tanks that can die to one shot (any armored choice).



Don't understand your point, and Noise Marine unit would probably equip themselves with sonic weapons. The only reason to have the basic weapon option is for GW to cover themselves with a poorly thought out box set.



Still can preform the same summoning support as in the old codex, and can be even improved with Icon,



They still have access to multiple specials and can fulfill a great assault roll in a rhino. Their new load out is better than true grit any day. Plus you can always play the MEQ hoard with them.



The cheap version is just as effective in new SM lists. If you plan on building a vehicles kill infantry, infantry kills vehicles army they are very useful.

Posted By Mahu on 10/24/2007 8:12 AM
How truly different are the Legions that the necessitate their own rules. Let's really look at them:

Alpha Legion - Experts in Infiltration and Cultists. They probably got the shortest end of the stick but what is stopping you from taking multiple chosen units (that infiltrate), CSM squads, Deamon Princes, and Havocs with the Icon of Undivided. Decent army, with a good amount of shooting and play to their theme as much as possible.

Not an optimal list.  d- at best.

Word Bearers - Fanatical religious nuts that love deamons. They can play just like before, take multiple units (at least 4) of the generic deamons, CSM in Rhinos, Bikers, GD, Deamon Prince, Lord and play the old deamon bomb. Can be an effective list if you use the amount of generic deamons to tie up squads for elite CC elements like Terminators, Possessed, or Chosen.

Please tell me how you can even suggest this idea. Do you play the game?  The new daemons aren't worth taking as filler. It's not even a shade on the dbomb. The fact that you suggest using possessed tells me how well you thought this through. It's a lsoing bet to take units meant to tie up other in cc. You need to take units that win cc. The lesser daemons don't. d- at best now from b+.

Iron Warriors - Less deamons more siege. Essentially it all comes down to their heavy support choices, max oblitorators, couple of vindicators and predators, Havocs. Any one of them would do. Combine that with the usual suspects like CSM in rhinos, chosen, Terminators etc. and you can still capture their style.

Since IW couldn't use daemons before I am confused. IW lost the least.

Night Lords - Scare tactics and raptors, oh my! Easily take three units of raptors, combine that with CSM in rhinos, Generic Deamons, Winged Deamon Princes, and you have a pretty decent list that is fast and can get to you quickly.

Again you suggest generic daemons. Again I ask do you play? The reason dbomb worked was daemons were strong enough to win, not hold. So you took enough units to mkae up for the inconvienent way they appeared. You over value random units obviously. C list

Emporer's Children - Multple units of Noise Marines, back by Deamon Princes, Armored Support, and generic deamons, plays them similar to before.

The daemonettes used to balance the weakness of the shooty marines. Lesser dameons don't. No Noise havos eliminates a staple since 2nd edition. C list (the only one of the cult troops to get a c list)

World Eaters - I was talking to a fried about this one, you could really do a crazy charge at you type army. Chaos Lords, Terminators, and Generic Deamons can pop in off of Berserkers in Rhinos, Bikers, and crazy charging Defilers.

Might be a good list, if your opponent doesn't do cc better then you (nids and Eldar for sure). Again you try to use generics. They aren't worth it. Solid b list as Nids and Eldar are so strong and common.

Thousand Sons - Multiple units of either mounted or walking Thousand Sons with durable Terminators, DP, Sorcerors, and Generic Deamons providing shooting and assault support, backed by Predators, Vindicators, etc.

Generic daemons don't shoot. Solid b list. Won't fight back well in c but tough.

Death Guard - Multiple Plague Marines back by Deamon Princes, GD, Generic Deamons, Defilers, Bikers, Predators, etc.

Ok list still a b-list.

There you go, a way to field 8 different competitive armies that match the theme of the Legion in question using the same list.

8 different armies yes. Top level competetive. No. Only A list army in the book is the Fzorgle dp build.

Which makes me wonder if you, Efarrer have used the lesser daemons. They are a lot better than you give them credit for. They aren't the old daemons, but they work well in the new lists.

And I think he was talking about fluffy armies, not competitive. All those armies weren't exactly all top tier before.

I don't think I would start making judgments on the toughness of the codex yet. It took some time before people figured out the good builds of Tyranids....

Posted By Mahu on 10/24/2007 8:30 AM

Lesser deamons- Less said = better

Lesser deamons are totally worth it. Putting a model with a Marine stat. line at less points, that can guarantee an assault 12" from the Icon and is fearless. Yes, please. Esspecially if I need a unit that can tie up anything in close combat long enough for Terminators and DP's to get some fun.

Which still shows up randomly. Bad.

Spawn- No one can convince me a slow and porpuseful model with three wounds and no armour is any good at all atr that price.

It's not that they are good on an individual basis. It's more that they are good when you take 15+ of them. I have seen the new Spawn Spam, and it is dangerous. There is simple not enough high rate of fire guns per the target saturation that you would see to take them all down, and you still have points to take a bunch nasty units to assault the enemy.

15+ eh? so 600 points worth. Nope.

Possessed- 4 points less than a terminator for a random ability, Nope.

The best use I have seen from them is riding in the cheaper Land Raider. They are cheaper than Terminators and you can cram more into a Land Raider. In that set-up there is really only one bad roll you can make for them and that is the scouts roll. But between, Feel no pain, Fleet, Rending, Power Weapons, all work well in that set-up. Plus, it is my opinion that 26 points for a marine with +1 attack, +1 toughness, and 5+ invulnerable save is still a decent deal if not the best. That statline is only marginally worst than a terminator one, and they are marginally cheaper. The random ability I see as icing on the proverbial cake.

Still not worth it to me, because the other choices are that much better.

Dreadnaughts- Oh good, they kill thier own troops again. Just what I wanted another random factor, in the crowded elites section...

They are one of the least effective choices in the codex, but can still find some use.

Not in a optimized list.

Havocs- Relative to the other heavy support, why bother? Other choices are much better (Obis and vindicators).

Because they can be more survivable than one model creatures that can be instakilled (oblits) and tanks that can die to one shot (any armored choice).

I disagree, but whatever. I'll give you this one without serious arguement.

Noise Marines (with guns)- As usual initiative is over valued on basic troopers. In particular on troops meant to be equiped with heavy weapons.

Don't understand your point, and Noise Marine unit would probably equip themselves with sonic weapons. The only reason to have the basic weapon option is for GW to cover themselves with a poorly thought out box set.

The gunned out choice is not worth it. Use thousand sons for more kills. I actually think the non gunned out option is the better use of points.

Bikers- Too expensive, More expensive then BA bikers who get a champion. In particular when cheapness of raptors is factored in.

Still can preform the same summoning support as in the old codex, and can be even improved with Icon,

You like lesser daemons though. Not heard of anyone off of warseer supporting them so.

Chaos marines- Requiring ten to get a heavy makes these guys the losers of the troops section. If you want a heavy in your troops use noise marines and only take a blast master = 140 points for a better heavy weapon at any rate.

They still have access to multiple specials and can fulfill a great assault roll in a rhino. Their new load out is better than true grit any day. Plus you can always play the MEQ hoard with them.

Use cult troops they are better.

Predators- almost good enough to make my not often list, but overpriced lascannons limit it's usefulness.

The cheap version is just as effective in new SM lists. If you plan on building a vehicles kill infantry, infantry kills vehicles army they are very useful.

Posted By fellblade on 10/24/2007 8:22 AM

I think the nay-sayers' argument is, in a nutshell, "I hate to wait". 

And who came blame them, given Games Workshop's track record?  There is no guarantee that the rumored codex daemonica will even address their concerns, let alone fix the perceived problems.

I've corresponded with Jervis regarding LatD.  And from what I can gather, they will in no way, shape or form be represented in the Daemon book.  They view LatD as something that would deserve its own codex, but it sounds as though there's no plan for it in sight (meaning we have to keep reminding them that we're interested seeing it happen).

Moreover, the reliable sources on Warseer indicate that the daemon book won't be "allyable" with the CSM codex except in Apocalypse games.  It's a separate army list.

When you consider that Orks, Daemons, a new edition of 40K and maybe a "Planetstrike" supplement may be on the way for 2008, and DE, Necrons, BA, SW and others are still somewhere in the queue, things are looking fairly bleak for Chaos to get anything else in the next few years. 

Posted By Toreador on 10/24/2007 9:23 AM
Which makes me wonder if you, Efarrer have used the lesser daemons. They are a lot better than you give them credit for. They aren't the old daemons, but they work well in the new lists.

And I think he was talking about fluffy armies, not competitive. All those armies weren't exactly all top tier before.

I don't think I would start making judgments on the toughness of the codex yet. It took some time before people figured out the good builds of Tyranids...

If they come when needed. As it stands they arrive within  of an Icon bearer, only good if things work out. Have you played them? Do you even play chaos?  They won't be used in the power builds for the army.  For the record I have used daemons for two versions of the book. I'm not bothering with these ones. They are weaker versions of the daemons from the 3rd ed book. Not worth it to me.

He used the word comptetive. I did not. IW and Word Bearers dbomb were close to top tier.

The toughness of the book is not what my complaint. There is a good competetive build, it was figured out before the book was even in general release. Not three, four, five, six, seven, or eight.

 

edit to address content

Yep, have played with and against the new daemons. I thought at first that they were pretty weak, but that was in comparison to the old. I found after a few games that they actually are quite useful, especially against eldar.

Anything that deepstrikes has the same problem that daemons have, but daemons are rather more useful in that they can assault that turn. Yes, it takes setting things up to happen correctly, but it took almost the same planning in the old codex.

Greater Daemons on the other hand are not quite as useful, but are cheap for their abilities.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
So when rules based on Fluff make X better than Y, because the fluff for X happens to translate into better game terms than Y does, then it's a problem. 

That's what pts costs are for.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Should I be rewarded for getting 10 Man squads for my Ultramarines? Hey I'm following the fluff! Shouldn't I be rewarded? 

Yes you should.  If Ultramarines are supposed to use 10-man squads but their rules make 6-man squads more effective than 10-man squads then those rules are a failure.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
All the old rules did was reward people for liking Slaanesh or Khorne, instead of Tzeench or Nurgle. 

Actually all the old rules did was compensate people for restricting their armies to a single god.  Pure cult armies not only used to lose access to all other Marks, all other daemons, and all other god-specific wargear, but they also lost access to unmarked units as well.  Even though the old Marks weren't quite balanced they were still balanced enough to make restricting yourself to a single Mark a disadvantage.  So the old codex gave you bonuses to compensate.

But now restricting yourself to a single Mark gets you nothing in return.  If taking a pure cult army puts you at a disadvantage, and the rules no longer even try to counterbalance that, then in effect the rules are discouraging you from taking pure cult armies.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
What you are ignoring is the fact that you can take Bikes or Raptors, which can represent 1KSons units that used to fill those roles, and the "AC" is the sorcerer commanding them, but takes too much concentration to control their automations that they can't use psychic powers.

I could take Bikes or Raptors using the old list.  Of course it wouldn't be a "pure Thousand Sons army" anymore, but I can't play a "pure Thousand Sons army" now either (since it no longer exists).  But wait, you say, now you can give them a Tzeentch Icon!  Well I can give a Tzeentch Icon to my CSMs too.  That doesn't make them Thousand Sons.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
You've got powerful sorcerers, they have access to powers that are much more potent or damaging than anything the SM libby can take save one broken power (FOTD).

Huh?  How are Tzeentch psychic powers more potent than Librarian ones?  Ignoring pts costs for now, and just focusing on raw power:

Force Weapon = Force Weapon

Fury of the Ancients > Bolt of Change, Doom Bolt, Wind of Chaos

Veil of Time > Warptime

Psychic Hood > no psychic defense whatsoever

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Funny you should compare the sorcerers to a SM librarian who is considered to be too good for his points, as opposed to say a Dark Angels librarian, who pretty much blows.

Maybe I did that because the fluff doesn't state that Thousand Sons don't have more powerful psykers than Dark Angels - it states that they have more powerful psykers than all the other space marines.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Your complaints about failings compared to Librarians or the fact that you can't auto-cast anymore are related to in-game performance compared to other armies, not so much in terms of fluff representation.

Uh, what?  So if guardsmen were all S4 then it would be perfectly fluffy for Orks to remain S3?  Yeah I guess comparisons with other armies don't matter if all I do is play other Thousand Sons.  But the minute I face a Librarian all of a sudden my in-game performance isn't really representing the fluff so well now is it?  Hell, I don't even need to look as far as Codex: Space Marines to find stronger psykers - there are stronger psykers right there in Codex: Chaos Space Marines!  Fzorgle!

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/24/2007 4:36 AM
Your examples of using other codex's for "counts-as" are just you being willfully oblivious.

How is that?  At least if I use the SM codex all my "psykers" (= heavy weapons marines) and "rubrics" (= bolter marines) will have consistent rules.  Just cause the rules say "Tzeentch" doesn't mean they are the most accurate representation of the Thousand Sons fluff.  Hell, Grey Knights make better Thousand Sons terminators than the ones in C:CSM. 

Besides, I shouldn't have to resort to "counts as" to field an army that has been one of the 5 main Chaos armies since The Lost and the Damned.  That I do is a solid indictment of the Chaos codex.

Posted By jfrazell on 10/24/2007 4:33 AM

Lets go with Slaanesh because I was looking at that more.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the only difference the sonic weaponry? Both cult and non-cult get the +1 Init.

Actually, of all the cult armies Emperor's Children come away as the best represented under the new rules.  This is because the only difference between Noise Marines and CSM w/MoS is Fearless and the option to take sonic weapons.  Emperor's Children were never a "sonic weapons only" force so you can still build a traditional Emperor's Children army with the new codex, the only inconsistent feature being that your Troops are Fearless while your terminators et al are not.

Contrast this with World Eaters whose terminators have a lower Weapon Skill and lack Furious Charge or Death Guard where they have a higher Initiative and lack Feel No Pain.  And Tzeentch terminators are so different from Thousand Sons it really stretches "counts as" to the breaking point IMHO.

Posted By Toreador on 10/24/2007 9:23 AM
And I think he was talking about fluffy armies, not competitive. All those armies weren't exactly all top tier before.

So not only are they less representative of the fluff, but they're still not very competitive.  So what's the purpose of the new codex again?  I mean, besides pissing off Chaos players?

Posted By Toreador on 10/24/2007 9:23 AM
It took some time before people figured out the good build of Tyranids....

Well, the Tyranid codex is more flexible.  Also, FYT.

I would say overall more of them are at least competitive now, compared to the past. They have lopped the head off of the beast though, with more armies now in the middle instead of top and bottom. Eldar mech lists and godzilla lists are just going to be tough for any of the "new" armies to beat, but Chaos can more than deal with any of the other older lists.

Godzilla nids is flexible?

I think we will see more and more builds out there. I keep seeing terminator builds popping up around here. I will be curious to see what shakes out.

Posted By Mahu on 10/24/2007 8:12 AM
How truly different are the Legions that the necessitate their own rules. Let's really look at them:

Word Bearers ... take multiple units (at least 4) of the generic deamons

Night Lords ... combine that with ... Generic Deamons

Emporer's Children ... generic deamons, plays them similar to before.

World Eaters ... and Generic Deamons ...

Thousand Sons ... and Generic Deamons providing shooting ...

Death Guard ... Generic Deamons...


There you go, a way to field 8 different competitive armies that match the theme of the Legion in question using the same list.

Every time you say 'generic daemons', a Fury loses it's wings.

Anyway Mahu, I call bull*gak* on your whole post. You can approximate anything with the new Codex, but honest to God man - simply saying that taking 'generic daemons' - whoops, there goes another set of wings! - makes up for the lack of real daemons, it's an insult to Chaos players who own lots of Daemons.

I own lots of Daemons. Nearly AUD$1000 worth of them. I ordered very specific units of Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Daemonette Cav and Furies, and I was looking to get 3-4 units of Plaguebearers in the future for a Death Guard army.

Now not only do Death Guard not exist - neither do Plaguebearers!

No, taking a Lord with the MoN, some Plague Marines, and some generic daemons will NOT give me a Death Guard army. It will give me an army with a Lord with the MoN, some Plague Marines, and some hopeless waste-of-points generic daemons.

BYE