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I recently got given back my 9 old metal chaos terminators (vastly superior to the new plastic monstrosities), so I'm tempted to repaint them as plaguey looking and bust out my Plague Marines for some Ass Kickin' in our fortnightly 40K league. I spent a lot of time painting and converting the army, so it'd be a shame not to let it see some play. Still bitter about the generic daemons though. I'll have fun messing with my friends anyway I suppose, not gonna let it get in the way of some fun.

Posted By puree on 10/17/2007 1:56 PM

Posted By Teh_K42 on 10/15/2007 11:56 PM
I like Nurgle stuff, and the cost of an icon of Nurgle is a real pain. 50 pts for 1 measly Toughness! can someone please explain why that's worth more than a 5+ inv?

I imagine it is based on how many attacks are affected.  Inv 5+ only kicks in if you don't get your normal save, which for most stuff in the dex is at 3+ or 2+, hence it only kicks in against a limited number of attacks. Extra T on the other hand which is mainly on T4 stuff kicks in against any attack from str 3 - 6, which is an awful lot of weapons that you'd expect to see being fired at infantry.

uh-huh. Makes rough sense, but still no way in hell it should cost 50.

Looking back over the old 'dex I find that I'm missing veteran skills. A lot of them weren't much good IMO but it just gave us something to say :"my chaos marines are a few thousand years old so they learned how to do some stuff the imperium can't do".

but I really like how there are troops that are diehard cultists and troops that are moderately inclined towards a single deity. (even if they're overpriced)

I love it how Space Marine Librarians are able to get two powers cheaply yet 10,000 year old Tzeentch Sorcerers have to pay 30 points for a power, 30 points for the MoT, and then another 30 points for the second power.

I also love it how 10,000 year old Veterans can't get Vet Skills, yet Loyalists can.

BYE

As a Dark Angels player, I don't see your point (and when GW finally gets of its arse and hands down the much rumored redux Space Marine dex, neither will most Space Marine players).

I for one like the new dex. That is of course in the context of how the new dexes have been created and the fact that a Deamon Codex will come out in the future.

To say there wasn't a lot of things wrong with the previous codex would be delusional. How many people gave chosen the Mark of Tzeentch? How many people really fielded Havocs, or Possessed. Raptors was a rare sight to see. Sure you had a ton of options in that dex, but more options doesn't a better codex make. The worst example of this was Spiky Bits/Master Crafting. Two Wargear that do the identical thing yet one is cheaper than the other.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the 3.5 Chaos Codex and I have played two armies out of it. But in a competitive environment, how many varied lists did you see? Was any Greater Deamon used in a non-cult army that wasn't the Blood Thirster? How often did you face the Oblitorator/ 4 Heavy Support Iron Warriors, or a Deamon-bomb army?

I like the new dex because almost anything is useful in it. Possessed and the Icon of Nurgle (except on bikes) may be the two downsides, but there are may uses for every unit in the dex. It may be less options but ultimately you will see more verity of armies fielded from it.

Posted By Mahu on 10/18/2007 5:39 AM
As a Dark Angels player, I don't see your point (and when GW finally gets of its arse and hands down the much rumored redux Space Marine dex, neither will most Space Marine players).

And yet again, Warseer and B&C (yes the wastes) are wash with commentary from JJ that there are NO plans for a redux.

http://warseer.com/forums/40k-news-rumour-discussion/107810-some-comfirmations.html?highlight=redux

 So if / until something changes, marines - the supposedly most hidebound of forces- have the most optionality.

Edit: haven't played in about two months at this point. Are people seeing variety in the new chaos lists-not theoryhammer but actual minis on the board?

 

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/17/2007 2:25 PM
This is by no means to see that the Codex isn't powerful or competative. People often mistake my ire with the Codex for someone complaining that it isn't powerful. I don't give two $#!ts about the power of the Codex. It could be the most broken powerful Codex in the game, but I won't play it if the life's been sucked out of it.

The Chaos Codex has had the life sucked out of it. The book itself makes an excellent door-mat though, and makes an excellent frisbee.

That's the thing for me.  As a product, is this codex inspiring?  Does it inspire players to start Chaos armies? 

Obviously, some folks have been.  And certainly the weird Warseer types can feel morally righteous about this book after calling the old one concentrated evil simply because of a few broken builds. But I suspect many others aren't interested, at least not like with the old book. 

GW's problem is that they approached this as a streamlining without really offering any new take or new direction.  Yes, I know -- this one is about renegades.  But what flavor or take does it offer a renegade player that the last book didn't? 

Obviously, I'm biased, but if you're going to streamline the book and steer it away from the Legions, why not really change things and work in a few LatD elements to better differentiate CSMs from the loyalists?  Then follow up one year later with a Legions book based around the "big four." That way you end up with:

1) A somewhat new take on CSMs that might attract new players
2) Reason for existing CSM players to add new units and buy more models
3) *More* support for people interested in Legions (and more CSM sales)

How is that not a better plan for GW? 

It's fine that they broke some eggs...but then you have to make the omelet.  GW forgot to turn on the stove. 

At a time when the Legions are at a height of popularity thanks to the HH books, their entire business plan on Chaos is bizarre to me. And don't get me started on creating an all-daemon army that you won't even be able to use with CSM armies.  I don't blame Jervis and the designers much...it's clear a lot of this is coming from above them. 

Posted By migsula on 10/15/2007 3:49 PM
I think it's the first time ever when a new codex is worse than the previous incarnation - which sadly is really sad.

Extra sad given how positive a person I am.

The new codex is sad.

Yeah, if you're that down on it, it says a lot.

Now I'm not saying that T4(5) is worth 50 points, but to say most of the important weapons in the game ignore it is just silly. Both Dakkafexes and most of the shooting from Eldar skimmers, heck Eldar in general, is Strength 6 and being Toughness 5 really matters. On the contrary it can be difficult to justify the Mark of Tzeentch when the best tournament armies have a lot of high strength multi-shot weapons that will kill you as fast as a normal MEQ.

Posted By gorgon on 10/18/2007 1:15 PM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/17/2007 2:25 PM
This is by no means to see that the Codex isn't powerful or competative. People often mistake my ire with the Codex for someone complaining that it isn't powerful. I don't give two $#!ts about the power of the Codex. It could be the most broken powerful Codex in the game, but I won't play it if the life's been sucked out of it.

The Chaos Codex has had the life sucked out of it. The book itself makes an excellent door-mat though, and makes an excellent frisbee.

That's the thing for me.  As a product, is this codex inspiring?  Does it inspire players to start Chaos armies? 

Obviously, some folks have been.  And certainly the weird Warseer types can feel morally righteous about this book after calling the old one concentrated evil simply because of a few broken builds. But I suspect many others aren't interested, at least not like with the old book. 

GW's problem is that they approached this as a streamlining without really offering any new take or new direction.  Yes, I know -- this one is about renegades.  But what flavor or take does it offer a renegade player that the last book didn't? 

Obviously, I'm biased, but if you're going to streamline the book and steer it away from the Legions, why not really change things and work in a few LatD elements to better differentiate CSMs from the loyalists?  Then follow up one year later with a Legions book based around the "big four." That way you end up with:

1) A somewhat new take on CSMs that might attract new players
2) Reason for existing CSM players to add new units and buy more models
3) *More* support for people interested in Legions (and more CSM sales)

How is that not a better plan for GW? 

It's fine that they broke some eggs...but then you have to make the omelet.  GW forgot to turn on the stove. 

At a time when the Legions are at a height of popularity thanks to the HH books, their entire business plan on Chaos is bizarre to me. And don't get me started on creating an all-daemon army that you won't even be able to use with CSM armies.  I don't blame Jervis and the designers much...it's clear a lot of this is coming from above them. 

Quoted for truthery.

Think if they had gone into detail doing:

Inversely do a retrospective. Lets pull back to HH. Detail the traitor legions in all their original glory.  Lets capitalize on these HH books.  Give them unique weaponry that existed at the time period: some ideas: a higher percentage of artificer armor,  some better weapons, some heavy support, legion specific wargear and vehicles (Warmaster design landraider, Emperor's champion rapier tank, World Eaters Death Brigade or other interesting oddities made up just for them).  Lets put in some heroes and villains from the books and their power at the time of the heresy.  Loken, Torgaddon, Tarvitz, Eoden, maybe even a page with the list for the Eisenstein 70.  You could then play them as heretics or loyalists pre-crusade (or what if scenarios). include new missions specific to the codex, culminating in "Breach at Imperial Gate 27"

Put a note in that this is dex I, Codex Dark Crusades is Part II

Codex Dark Crusades would detail chaos in at the turn of the 40th K. That codex would link in new traitors, LATD, and Chaos forces, demonic legions, Sons of Sek units all that jazz.  Have traitor cults units as new elites being  more powerful than previously, and rare leading these overall forces.  Visualize HH era survivors as A Champ level or even GK level commanding a bunch of chaos mainre "newbs" or chaos forces storming through the Sabbat region, new area incursions, and of course the bloodbath at EOT.

It could have been glorious.

 

 

Just think, you could then have a codex for marines at the time of HH as well.

Posted By jfrazell on 10/18/2007 2:15 PM

It could have been glorious.

I think you just made me weep...

As it happens, in the Chaos Codex I'm writing the Chosen are the 10,000 year old vets, so they're the WS5 BS5 ones. The Legion Codices we're doing will have specialist units, so a Khornate Marine army will have a unit choice 'World Eater Veterans', who are uber-Berzerkers.

So much potential wasted. Instead we get generic daemons.

BYE

Well you wouldn't. Your army doesn't have any options.

But let me break it down for you:

V3.5 Chaos Codex introduced Vet Skills as a way of separating Loyalists from the 10,000 year old Horus Heresy vets. V4 Marine Codex allows certain Marine units to take Vet Skills as well. V4 Chaos Codex removed Vet Skills (and everything else for that matter).

So now the 10,000 Vets don't have special skills, but Loyalists do.

I know you knew that already.

GW finally gets of its arse and hands down the much rumored redux Space Marine dex, neither will most Space Marine players

Didn't the most recent quote from JJ say that that book wasn't coming any time soon. Nevertheless, future actions in no way invalidate my argument now. They may later down the line, but that's to be expected.

To say there wasn't a lot of things wrong with the previous codex would be delusional.

I don't remember ever saying that. Don't put straw in my mouth.

How many people gave chosen the Mark of Tzeentch? How many people really fielded Havocs, or Possessed. Raptors was a rare sight to see. Sure you had a ton of options in that dex, but more options doesn't a better codex make. The worst example of this was Spiky Bits/Master Crafting. Two Wargear that do the identical thing yet one is cheaper than the other.

And this has what to do with what exactly?

The last Codex had problems. The current Codex has problems. In this regard they are identicle. What the last Codex has that the new one doesn't have is character/flavour/pazzaz. It's DULL.

Was any Greater Deamon used in a non-cult army that wasn't the Blood Thirster?

How is that the players' fault? If GW could write rules to save themselves then all units would be equally useful and there would have been a real choice between the GD's. As it stands, Games Workshops standing rule is when there is one no brainer and three weak options, rather than make all four options good, it's just to remove all four and replace it with a half-assed half-way rule.

How often did you face the Oblitorator/ 4 Heavy Support Iron Warriors, or a Deamon-bomb army?

I play Iron Warriors. I only own 3 Oblits, and I spent most of my time using Havocs. I have the capacity to do a Slaaneshi Daemonbomb. I don't do it because it's not fun to use. I'd rather my force be an interesting mix of (useful) units. GW'd rather all my units be the same.

And again, this is the fault of the people writing the book, not the players.

It may be less options but ultimately you will see more verity of armies fielded from it.

Yep, those 2 Lash/6 1Ksons armies sure are varied...

BYE

Of course I knew that already. I was being sarcastic.



My point was that if GW has really committed to the new codex structure introduced with Dark Angels, it should be taken into account when reviewing the codex. Context is everything.



I apologize, I wasn't making a reference to you necessarily. I was just addressing the people who look at the old codex as some great piece of parchment, where you and me both know that it had it's fair share of problems.




I was referring to the fact that the previous codex had so many useless units and options that it did lead to certain no brainier builds. Power scale between legions was definitely a problem.

I would have to disagree on the new codex being dull. Sure, there is still a ton of potential with Chaos, but considering this is a codex to represent only one aspect of the forces of chaos, I think it does a pretty good job. But this is a matter of opinion, yours may vary but the individual person will have to make up their own mind.



I think that is the point of the new codexes. Sure there are still more effective choices in the codexes, but if you really want any unit in the dex in your army, you can make it work. Unlike before there isn't any useless choices. I can even make an argument for Possessed (in a Mech Assault list). Hopefully GW will take the time they need to give us a Deamon codex that actually has 4 Greater Deamons that are hard to decide, or make things like Horrors useful.



I don't blame the players, you got to field what wins games sometimes. But at least now there is an effort from GW to give us balanced codexes without useless units or a Wargear list that most veterans pass on.



All I can say to that is how many different lists out of the codex place in the Ard Boys tournament. I would be surprised if every one of those list look roughly the same.

I built a 1500 point list today. We'll see how she handles on the battlefield. If anything, my playstyle has been enhanced and rewarded in the new book.
Read the new background too. Some of it is a bit dodgy, other bits are good. I liked the bits about marines going renegade, quite good I thought.

I think the chaos codex is prety nice in terms of its units, power etc etc, and I think there is more variety in good lists than some give credit for. In that regard I disagree with a lot of what HMBC says.

There is one thing I do agree with him on though, and that is flavor/character or whatever you want to call it.  I was never into old chaos nor did I play it, so it has nothing to do with comparing to the old stuff. But having bought the army deal, and put most of it together I found I couldn't really get into it, for some unknown reason I just just couldn't find that spark of imagination that made we want to get it painted and and play with them.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/18/2007 10:53 PM

Posted By jfrazell on 10/18/2007 2:15 PM

It could have been glorious.

I think you just made me weep...

It's really sad, isn't it?  There's so many interesting things they could have done.  And I don't think it's truly because of a lack of ideas among the designers.

But GW's now a company primarily concerned with shelf space, inventory management and plastics manufacturing...not ideas.  Don't get me wrong, I understand GW's business constraints and needs.  But at the end of the day, you have to create interesting products that your customers really WANT.

At least Orks look promising. 

Posted By gorgon on 10/19/2007 6:25 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/18/2007 10:53 PM

Posted By jfrazell on 10/18/2007 2:15 PM

It could have been glorious.

I think you just made me weep...

It's really sad, isn't it?  There's so many interesting things they could have done.  And I don't think it's truly because of a lack of ideas among the designers.

But GW's now a company primarily concerned with shelf space, inventory management and plastics manufacturing...not ideas.  Don't get me wrong, I understand GW's business constraints and needs.  But at the end of the day, you have to create interesting products that your customers really WANT.

At least Orks look promising. 

I respect the need to make profits, and inventory management is one part of that.  However, this really wouldn't have impacted that. Their net SKU's need not have been higher.  Indeed I'm all about combining SKU's. My primary point is that this is a fluff breakage and list breakage.  A chaos sprue option nets you all the marine and IG vehicles troops. Specialized chaos minis would be no more than now, just set at HH.  The Dark Crusades book would feed off existing, mayhaps with some minor new kits and, heaven forbid, use of conversions until particular SKU's become popular enough to warrant the cost of a new SKU. They could even have "how to kits" for converting things to non-produced models (the scorpion comes to mind).  It also would be a nice feed for FW.

But in essence its purely a fluff and list change.

Well I read that review by HMBC and based on what he is saying I think that GW tried to fix the most broken Army in the game. As a guard player it was extremely annoying to have these deamons ALLWAYS get the charge, especially with millions of rending attacks coming your way. Or those guys who all had power wpns, or those I5 birds, that are also S5 that scatter then move 12 then assault. THAT was broken. There was nothing you could do about those daemon bombs, but when people do things like turbo boost into your face, it is rather difficult.

It seems there is now one stat to govern them all to allow people to have more fun with chaos. Now we might start seeing som chaos armies that are actually themed. Unlike before when people would have a circus on the table and call it an Army. They looked like random models thrown together, especially deamony players (except for nurgle). The correction of much that was broken has sparked my interest and I might now start playing a chaos army.

Well HBMC, they're all piling on you, so I guess I'll try and take some of the brunt.

You guys are trying to argue about different things.  No one disagrees that the old codex had balance problems: Demonbombs, Pie Plates of Doom, etc.  Some armies were no brainers if you cared about winning.  Who's fault is it: the players, for utilizing an efficient and brutal army, or the designers for not figuring out how to abuse an army?

But instead of taking a look at how those "cheesy" armies are being abused and try and tweak them to curtail their power a little, what does GW do?  They rip out the old armies completely.  It's like if they took the old Black Templars army (which could be played cheesy as well) and rolled it into the regular Marine Codex.  Oh, those mixed unit squads you've got?  They're too confusing and complicated, so we'll just get rid of them.  If you want a Black Templar army, just paint your marines black, it's the same thing really.

No, they adjusted the Templar codex and it's still unique and fluffy, and (I'm guessing here) pretty balanced.  There aren't any 40 page long posts about Templars, so I'm assuming people are pretty happy with it.

But the studio gutted the Chaos Codex.  Any army theme is now a paint job at most.  Marines get 4+ codecies for individual chapters, but all of chaos gets rolled into one half-assed book.  And guess what?  There's still horribly cheesy armies that can be build from it.  You might as well get the entire studio to stand up on an aircraft carrier and proclaim, "Mission Accomplished."

We should not be upset that they took strides to eliminate the overpowered army builds.  That's a good thing.  What we should be upset about is that they destroyed the flavor of an entire army.  The varied styles of demons (of which there used to be 16): gone.  The rules differentiating 8 different legion play styles: gone.

And people wonder why Marines are so popular.  Every other army gets one book for an entire race, and the marines get nearly half a dozen.

Stupid, stupid moves.  I guarantee they keep 'em coming, too.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/19/2007 6:24 PM
Now we might start seeing som chaos armies that are actually themed. Unlike before when people would have a circus on the table and call it an Army. They looked like random models thrown together, especially deamony players (except for nurgle).

Wait, what???  Are we even talking about the same codex here?  Did you somehow obtain the secret Not Crummy edition of the new Chaos codex?  Seeing as how the old codex allows themed armies based on one of the 9 original Traitor Legions while the new one enables players to field nice "themed" circuses armies of 9 Obliterators, 2 squads of 1kSons, and 2 Slaaneshi Fzorglerors - I must assume that you are merely confused.  So just to make sure we're on the same page here - the old codex is the one with the two Black Legion marines on the cover, one with bolter, the other with power fist; the cover of the new codex features a fat cretinous mongoloid with a lightning claw who evidently has deemed it prudent to remove his helmet while standing in the middle of a raging inferno (it seems someone has set the whole battlefield on fire) thus revealing his hilariously tiny pinhead.  I'm glad we got that straightened out.

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 10/19/2007 9:19 PM
Well HBMC, they're all piling on you, so I guess I'll try and take some of the brunt.

And just like in my review thread, they're all heaping on me for the same reason. They all think I'm complaining about lost Codex power.


Please people, get it through your skulls:

I. Do. Not. Care. How. Powerful. Or. Weak. The. New. Chaos. Codex. Is.

It could be the most powerful Codex on the shelves. It could be spanking 'Ziller lists and killing Falcons with ease and I wouldn't a give a damn.

Why?

Because it's boring!!!

The character of the Legions are gone. The varied lists that made things interesting are gone. The endless options and choice a Chaos player had is gone.

Whenever someone says "Well atleast 1Ksons are competative now" I both laugh and die a little inside because 1kSons don't EXIST as an army any more. They're a unit choice. But, on the bright side, atleast they got a unit choice. For all us Iron Warrior, Word Bearer and Alpha Legion players out there - like myself - we got relegated to simply a different paint job on our models. And let's not even get started on my second fav army in the game, my lovingly created and tirelessly converted Lost & The Damned army, who are now completely gone.

And then the Daemons. Emperor's Blood the Daemons...

I said it in my review and I'm going say it again here:


It is absolutley sickening that GW can release three different rulesets for Deep Striking Terminators in three codex-following Marine Chapters (Ultras, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists), yet there isn't enough difference in their minds to give a Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change different statlines.


It's a joke.

The new Codex has powerful builds.
The new Codex can be abused - not as much as the old one, but I never denied that the old one was a little too powerful in some cases.
There's nothing wrong with the new Codex from a game or power perspective.

But for the reasons I play this game - for the background, fluff and making themed armies - this Codex is devoid of life. It's dull. Lifeless. A testament to the unimaginative morons who write these things (Phil Kelly aside... I think he's the last great bastion of decent Codex construction).


So for the love of our Immortal Emperor, please stop whining at me about how I just want my 4 Heavy Support Choices back, or my Daemon Bomb back. I don't want either of those. What I want is the SOUL of Chaos to be returned, so that the army is fun again.

BYE

Hear hear.

Different paint doesn't make a different army. Different rules make a different army. While you could make a Sisters of Battle army with Marine rules and just put little girly heads on them and paint them black and red it is not the same thing.

If you don't like the new chaos codex so much .... don't use it

God ... whining about it incessently is "boring".

GW seems to be setting Chaos up like the real SMs.

A main codex, with "chapter" (or leigion) codexes.

Or am I the only one that's seen the pattern here?

Posted By teamroocket on 10/21/2007 1:25 AM
If you don't like the new chaos codex so much .... don't use it

God ... whining about it incessently is "boring".

GW seems to be setting Chaos up like the real SMs.

A main codex, with "chapter" (or leigion) codexes.

Or am I the only one that's seen the pattern here?

If you dont like these types of threads so much....dont read them.

This is what a chaos discussion looks like nowadays.

Perhaps I'm behind in the times for rumors or some such, perhaps you could enlighten us on what you've heard about CODEX: World Eaters, or CODEX: Night Lords....

sorry, you're the only one that see's a pattern set up for legion codeii, its not happening, thats been a pipe dream for chaos players for the last 3 editions of the army.  This is all marine players are going to have to work with until finally Codex: daemons comes out....if it does.

....chaos marines are screwed for the next couple of years...this will be all they get.

...thank you drive thru.

Posted By teamroocket on 10/21/2007 1:25 AM
If you don't like the new chaos codex so much .... don't use it

God ... whining about it incessently is "boring".

GW seems to be setting Chaos up like the real SMs.

A main codex, with "chapter" (or leigion) codexes.

Or am I the only one that's seen the pattern here?

2 points for Whining about Whining.

He's not whining. Each time he posts it's in response to someone else's
post or accusation. People are discussing it with him and he's discussing
right back. Knowing HBMC, he's NOT going to use the new codex
unless he's playing someone outside his gaming group.

Some people want to play a game where army themes translate into nifty
rules. The don't have to be game breakers, they just have to be different than
your average army list. I feel like the success of the Imperial Guard codex and
the Space Marine codex was on its use of variant lists together with a crazy
plastic splash release. When the water settled, everyone wanted to buy figures
for a new army that they customized.

Did some people only assemble "the best" options? Yes. But others also opted
for the ones that fit their army, or left 1-3 slots open for a characteristic
trademark that only a Doctrine could provide. (Priests, Independent
Commisars, the Space Marine Scouting army, etc.)

And if the Chaos Codex has the chaos god specific units already in the
codex, then GW probably wrote the Chaos Codex to be more like the Eldar
one, i.e. without a plan to release sub-codex.

I said this on the old thread, but if GW had branded this as Codex: Renegades, I would have a lot less problem with it.  Make the renegades the ones who are lightly aligned to reflect their more modern nature.  Surely a chapter that's only been into Chaos for a few thousand years wouldn't be able to get as much support from the gods as the original 9.  This would explain the lame demons and the lack of variant lists.

Then you make a proper Codex: Traitor Legions, which would be focused on the original 9, like the old codex was.  You could even then establish the Codex: Chaos Cultists book, replete with traitorous IG, all-demon armies, etc.  That would be a "let you imagination run wild" type of book.

Pipe dream, I know.

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 10/21/2007 11:50 AM
I said this on the old thread, but if GW had branded this as Codex: Renegades, I would have a lot less problem with it.  Make the renegades the ones who are lightly aligned to reflect their more modern nature.

But then how would they be distinguished from loyalists?  Why wouldn't recently turned chapters still have assault cannons, land speeders, razorbacks, attack bikes and scouts?  Why would they all of a sudden start arming their devastators with autocannons, plasma guns, meltaguns, and flamers instead of multi-meltas and plasma cannons?

What they should have done is kept the Chaos legions separate in their own codex (maybe with the addition of mutants/cultists).  Then they should have had a separate codex/supplement with rules about how to convert the space marine and imperial guard lists to renegade marines and traitors - basically a more in-depth and detailed version of the Adversaries rules from the DH and WH codices.  This supplement would contain rules for "lesser" Marks (i.e. Chaos Icons), additional units (e.g. cultists, mutants, generic daemons), additional abilities (i.e. mutations and gifts), and restrictions (e.g. no ATSKNF, no Chaplains, no Priests)

Of course this doesn't fit into GW's "one book, one army" stand-alone codex paradigm, so instead they change the fluff to make every Chaos force fit a single ruleset - and yes, the fluff has been ever so subtly changed.  Just look at the new emphasis on mixed warbands consisting of a bazillion different chapters and legions all working together kumbaya.  Judging solely by the pictures in the new codex it looks almost as if Abaddon has decreed that (with the exception of the Black Legion) henceforth Chaos marines from a single legion may never congregate in groups larger than 10.

With only one ruleset to govern all of Chaos, what we get inevitably ends up looking like a sort of statistical average of what used to be widely disparate and varied forces.  The result is Thousand Sons and Death Guard running alongside Red Corsair terminators with reaper autocannons.

The new Chaos codex is about neither renegade chapters nor traitor legions - at least not as we knew them in the previous fluff.  The new codex is about a bland new hybrid of the two that hadn't really existed until now.  It's Codex: Part Legions, Part Renegades, All Bland.

It's a shame, I really am a fan of the new codex system. I'm currently playing eldar and I'm even happy with my Dark Angels (slowed codex sure, but at least there was a real effort made...it looks nice at least and isnt 8 pages long)

Chaos just doesnt lend itself to this sort of book however...it would have to be double the size. Chaos desperatly needs and DESERVES the treatment that loyalist marines get. I mean, dont they sell almost as much chaos marine stuff as they do reagular marine? Why not give them some extra attention and sell some more codeii? It's another excuse to rob us of more money right? Chaos has the fluff to be so diverse that they could support AT LEAST 3 codeii. Fantasy features two right now with the chaos fans waiting for the promised "demon" version, they already have beasts and a 'mortal' book. 40k should really have an interchangeable series with Marines and cultists at the very least, this daemon book coming out is a step in the right direction, but I dont think a full-on Daemon army is going to look right on the tabletop, not for 40k. At least they're doing SOMETHING though.

I think the chaos codex WORKS fine, but at this point, its still a failure. It doenst truly represent CHAOS. Chaos needs to be supported more, its too diverse to truly fit into one book.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/21/2007 2:59 PM

But then how would they be distinguished from loyalists?  Why wouldn't recently turned chapters still have assault cannons, land speeders, razorbacks, attack bikes and scouts?  Why would they all of a sudden start arming their devastators with autocannons, plasma guns, meltaguns, and flamers instead of multi-meltas and plasma cannons?

Don't get me wrong, a Renegade codex would have to be specifically designed to be one.  The Chaos codex as-is is not, and it doesn't really fit.

With a true Renegade codex you would get the icons (as lesser marks), generic daemons, the ability to know fear, etc.  Some of the things that marines get would have to be limited.  Assault cannons only on terminators, 0-1 speeders, limited razorbacks (if at all).  Scouts would have to go.  You're either going to be a full marine or you're going to be dead.  The devastators using mixed weaponry would also have to be out of necessity.  Renegades would be constantly on the run.  Trying to re-capture lost weapons would be a pain.  Doable, but difficult.

I admit it would be tough to have Renegades balance that middle ground between loyalists and the big 9, but it could be done.  Add the renegade Inquisitors.  You could even include rules for the cursed founding,

Posted By Deadshane1 on 10/21/2007 3:04 AM

sorry, you're the only one that see's a pattern set up for legion codeii, its not happening, thats been a pipe dream for chaos players for the last 3 editions of the army.  This is all marine players are going to have to work with until finally Codex: daemons comes out....if it does.

It seems like all signs point to the daemon book next year.  However, all signs also point to it not being "allyable" with the CSM codex.  So if you want to start an all-daemon army, you'll be happy. 

I think they left design room for Legion books, but who knows when or if they'll ever happen.  I imagine they'll be YEARS down the road at the very minimum. 

When you look at the struggle it's been to get an updated Ork codex, you have to think GW's representation of Chaos in 40K will be the new CSM codex, and an all-daemon army book (essentially 40K rules for WFB Daemonic Legions) for a very long time.  

Yeah, that oughta cover it. 

Boo. 

There are a few things that I don’t like about the new chaos codex.

  #1. Lack of lascanons. The good choices are infiltrating chosen but they pay a premium for their lascanons and oblits. Other than that you are looking at land raiders which are still expensive, 10 man marine squads (if they had combat squads they would be much better.), very expensive predators and havocs. So, not very many good options for you.

  #2. Lack of psychic defense. You introduce the lash which is overpowered, but no defense against it? Almost every army out there has some defense against psychic powers, but to have a codex without anything is idiotic. You have Thousand Sons which are some of the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy, but they can’t figure out how to stop psychic attacks?