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Posted By Blackmoor on 10/22/2007 9:11 AM

  #2. Lack of psychic defense. ....You have Thousand Sons which are some of the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy, but they can’t figure out how to stop psychic attacks?

That always makes me smile as well.  Almost as much as Ahriman not being able to overcome some spotty teenage inquisistor with an acme psy hood.

yeah daemonic rune was great. now my khorne lord can be blown up left and right.

Posted By puree on 10/22/2007 5:17 PM

Posted By Blackmoor on 10/22/2007 9:11 AM

  #2. Lack of psychic defense. ....You have Thousand Sons which are some of the most powerful sorcerers in the galaxy, but they can’t figure out how to stop psychic attacks?

That always makes me smile as well.  Almost as much as Ahriman not being able to overcome some spotty teenage inquisistor with an acme psy hood.

Well at least he finally figured out how to properly use his force weapon.

So now it seems everyone is complaining about themes. How is an army themed when they have, khorne, slaneesh, furies, and all different types of daemons, used for thier different rules. They dont even loook like an army, slaneesh look like some kind of dark eldar, khorne looked like a cross between an ork and satan, and some daemons even looked like boogers. Now it seems with daemons all the same stat line, (If I understood corectly) there will be no more circus effect cause people will have a true, slaneesh army with all slaneesh daemons, no need to buy somthing else to throw the theme off.

Now all you chaos players know what its like to play IG in a way. The only difference between this and IG is IG has catachans, there is NO difference between death corps, cadian, steel legion, vestroyan, harakoni, etc...You can try to use docrines to somwhat customize your army but essentially they are all the same thing. WELCOME TO OUR WORLD, YOU ARE NOW LIKE THE OTHERS. Personally I feel the same about marines, all of the dark angels, blood angels, space wolves etc...should all be marines, if you want blood angels, then paint 'em red, there is no need for all this other crap. How would you all feel if out of all the books put out a year 2-3 of them were IG books, one for cadians, one for vestroyans, one for catachans, one for harikoni, one for tallern....etc, etc. Quit complaining cause you THINK you have it as bad as everyone else does for a change.

I have TONS of themeing in my army, my vehicles match my troops' uniforms as well as unit insignia, commanders fit in, and they are all painted so as to have a SINGLE look. Themeing is at the tip of your brush and in your artistic ability, not in a rulebook. The only theme I would ever see in chaos armies is the "I want to win" theme.

@smart alex- At the same time the IG have doctrines, which gives them a lot more customisation.

can anyone direct me to where I can find out all the info on the Daemon Codex? and please don't don't say go hunting in Warseer

smart_alex:

Might I suggest reading beyond the pretty pictures and looking towards the back of the Guard Codex, where different rules are given for various types of Imperial Guard regiments. They're certainly not as exhaustive as a full-blown Codex, but they are rules for different regiments.

Furthermore, the Doctrine system alone allows for many different styles of play with a Guard army, which is more than anyone can say for Chaos and their generic daemons.

You user title is also quite ironic. Please don't let the irony continue...

BYE

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
So now it seems everyone is complaining about themes. How is an army themed when they have, khorne, slaneesh, furies, and all different types of daemons, used for thier different rules. They dont even loook like an army, slaneesh look like some kind of dark eldar, khorne looked like a cross between an ork and satan, and some daemons even looked like boogers. Now it seems with daemons all the same stat line, (If I understood corectly) there will be no more circus effect cause people will have a true, slaneesh army with all slaneesh daemons, no need to buy somthing else to throw the theme off.

Now all you chaos players know what its like to play IG in a way. The only difference between this and IG is IG has catachans, there is NO difference between death corps, cadian, steel legion, vestroyan, harakoni, etc...You can try to use docrines to somwhat customize your army but essentially they are all the same thing. WELCOME TO OUR WORLD, YOU ARE NOW LIKE THE OTHERS. Personally I feel the same about marines, all of the dark angels, blood angels, space wolves etc...should all be marines, if you want blood angels, then paint 'em red, there is no need for all this other crap. How would you all feel if out of all the books put out a year 2-3 of them were IG books, one for cadians, one for vestroyans, one for catachans, one for harikoni, one for tallern....etc, etc. Quit complaining cause you THINK you have it as bad as everyone else does for a change.

I have TONS of themeing in my army, my vehicles match my troops' uniforms as well as unit insignia, commanders fit in, and they are all painted so as to have a SINGLE look. Themeing is at the tip of your brush and in your artistic ability, not in a rulebook. The only theme I would ever see in chaos armies is the "I want to win" theme.

Having both guard and chaos, I can safely say you are incorrect. Guard have doctrines, which makes them quite customizable. Now we all know a plethora of doctrines are craptacular due to inefficient costing, but we still can play them. Add on armored company and the joy of FW/IA, and we have quite  a few lists.

The more appropriate comparison would be chaos vs. the V3 vanilla marine codex.  No doctrines, no traits, demons are two items in total, one of which is HQ.

As far as complains of dull and unthematic, that is personal taste. Personally, I have already been tempted with three different builds out of the codex (Nurgle-themed, Thousand Sons, and Astral Claws), all can be built differently with different units, still be competitive and can play totally different to each other. It's hard for me to imagine a codex with 5 different troop choices lacking theme.

A codex does not need to provide you rules to make different themed list, not with how mutable the new chaos list is.

To the complaint of "just the same with different colors", really how was that too different than before? What was the difference between a CSM in a Word Bearers army and a CSM in an Iron Warriors army. The only thing you really lost is a few special FOC changes.

My point is, it's still easy to make different themed armies out of the codex that is beyond just using the same units and changing the colors.

I'm more in agreement with Mahu than I am with HBMC, but I see both points. Most importantly I don't play Chaos, but have a lot of friends who do.  Just keep that in mind when reading my opinions on the subject, since I don't play them I feel what I think of the new dex has less impact than a player with 2 armies from the old dex.

One buddy of mine never used Demons in his Chaos lists, so when it came to the latest dex, he's actually pretty happy about it, and not just because his primary Chaos force was 1kSons.

From my own perspective, there's about as much draw to using the new Dex as there was with the Old one. The biggest difference is how useless the new demons are, but before all I'd ever consider using was Demonettes and Bloodletters anyway, because they were quite frankly too good.

My main point being that even with the new Dex, I can still think of quite a few interesting builds that I'd enjoy using both for fun and for tournament play, if I were inclined to start Chaos.

I concur with Voodoo_Boyz/Mahu. The new Codex got me to start Chaos Space Marines. Then again, I'm originally a Necron player, so it doesn't take much to impress me with a Codexes versatility. They had me at 5 Troop choices.

WHy dont some of you actually READ my ENTIRE post. I mentioned doctrines. As an IG player i know all about them, first off about a third of them are just equipment which do nothing more than improve saves or give you inv saves. Second of all most of them are not that good, the ability to deep strike is ok, but just if your sending in suicide bombs, most of you clearly WAY OVERESTIMATE those doctrines. a guardman is still a guardsman. I dont need any help on finding doctrines from any of YOU I know that codex EXTREMELY WELL. The fact that there are doctrines does not even begin to compare with the different troop/daemon choices chaos had. YOU CANNOT EVEN COMPARE IT as far as the differences between blood angels, dark angels, ultamarines, and all that other stupid garbage. You can only take 5 doctrines, which in turn greatly limit what else you can take which is stupid. For ONE I would not give two craps if they got rid of doctrines in the future. It would not change my THEMEING, you ALL MISSED THE POINT OF MY POST. why don't you actually READ IT! Then try so reply without the sarcasm which seems to be what most people like to do in dakka.

How useful the doctrines actually are is besides the point. The point is that they are there.

Calm down.

If you are reading the same Chaos Codex I am, IG has it beat in terms of effectivness. Had GW given at least a half hearted attempt at even some small choices and taken the same approach as with the IG codex, we would not even have this conversation. Its all fine and good that you like themed armies, but it does no good if they look pretty on the table and die like a dog.

In point of fact, I feel for Chaos players just for this fact alone. I play IG, and even with a platoon of simple mudsloggers, I can easily own a terminator. Never mind the fact that the lack of choices was even considered, It wouldn't have hurt GW to give the major chaos armies/ powers thier own special flavor as per example: +1 toughness for nurgle,or a chance to field more Plague marines, or nurglings per casualty. 2 attacks or a frenzy choice for Khorne, a leadership choice or two for Tzeench or a unmodified roll against psych attacks, and even the chance to tun your enemies units for the Slaneesh.
Heck If they are coming out with new models, why in the world wouldn't there be choices to be even be considered? More choice = more sales.

As usual, the half hearted attept at a codex is something to keep people amused with for another few years, or until enough people stop buying Chaos to do it right in the second attempt.

Along with that, you just go on and on about nothing, no wonder you bring on the sarcasm.

Try looking at the big picture.For example, If I gave you a Lemun Russ, but only told you you could use the heavy bolter on it, you would be pretty peeved as well. Thats the same as the new Codex compaired to the older ones.

See, the genie is out of the bottle as far as customization goes.  How miffed would Marine players be if all their trait choices were gone.  A bit, I bet.  Eldar players lost their different Craftworlds, which I also think is a shame.  They were a bit different that the Marine traits, but still.  Take away a huge amount of flavor and style for an army and the players have a right to be upset about it.  Especially since those armies were converted and such at no small expense.

And as far as the daemon bias.  The solution is to reduce the doubleplusgood daemons' power, or up their point cost.  You DO NOT eliminate all difference between a Nurgling and a Bloodletter.  I know, balance is a four letter word in some GW circles, but come on.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
So now it seems everyone is complaining about themes. How is an army themed when they have, khorne, slaneesh, furies, and all different types of daemons, used for thier different rules.

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
Now it seems with daemons all the same stat line, (If I understood corectly) there will be no more circus effect cause people will have a true, slaneesh army with all slaneesh daemons, no need to buy somthing else to throw the theme off.

Well for the sake of argument let's just assume that the new daemons are actually worth fielding.  Now suppose I had already made a Slaanesh "circus" army with a mix of daemons using the old codex.  Who says I'm all of a sudden going to have a true Slaanesh army with all Slaanesh daemons under the new one?  Why wouldn't I continue to use my Bloodletters and Furies models?  In fact, since they're all identical now I could even mix them together in the same squads!  Now that's what I call a circus!  And if I wanted to pad my numbers I could just pick up a pack of Nurglings, put each on their own individual bases, and sprinkle them around my daemon units.  Not only would this be cheap, it would have the added bonus of annoying people like yourself!  Hey, maybe the new codex isn't so bad afterall!

The new Chaos Codex still allows players to create themed armies, its just that some of them aren't optimized competitive builds.  I play Chaos and feel that although my army on the whole got nerfed and had many variations sucked out of it, the new codex did a halfway decent job of righting some of the insanely broken things about the old codex.
The variant lists were disgustingly overcharged and I'm glad that they are gone.  Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Word Bearers all had insanely hardcore builds that pretty much swept the table in many cases if they got the first turn.  I agree that the whole lesser/greater daemon thing is stupid, but the daemon summoning rules are way more balanced now.

Players can still make a themed army, it just means saying no to a lash sorcerer or Ap3 Thousand Sons if they don't fit the theme.  The new icon system makes it possible to have Terminators or Havocs that still gain a benefit from their allegiance.  Its up to the player to make their force characterful and powerful now.  The mixed god army of death is looking like the meanest build right now, but that doesn't mean you have to use it. 

40k army building generally consists of a tradeoff between fluffiness and optimization.  There were too many abusive builds in the old codex that carried the theme of an army to stupid extremes.  I know I got tired of the tournament winning 9 Oblit/6 man Las-plas/4 Heavy list.  I fail to see why Iron Warriors players can't adopt a more balanced playing style that still reflects their background.  Coming up with a winning list for them just will take a bit more creativity.

The new codex is more of a grab bag, while it got rid of daemonic gifts and the books of chaos it also got rid of many of the annoying constraints that made building an army frustrating.  I know as a Black Legion player it pissed me off that I couldn't have a Slaaneshii unit in an army led by a Khorne lord.   Now the player can dictate the fluff of their army a bit more.

Gav Thorpe definitely simplified the Chaos army too much but on the whole, this codex is a step in the right direction from the old one. 

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

So? You could do that before too you know, and nothing stopped you. And the only "benefit" you got was a 13 points savings on an AC and a +1 to your summoning roll, both of which were pretty damn unnecessary and really only benefited 2 of the Legions anyway (Khorne & Slaanesh, since they had even squad numbers and Demons worth using). 

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
Now it seems with daemons all the same stat line, (If I understood corectly) there will be no more circus effect cause people will have a true, slaneesh army with all slaneesh daemons, no need to buy somthing else to throw the theme off.

Well for the sake of argument let's just assume that the new daemons are actually worth fielding.  Now suppose I had already made a Slaanesh "circus" army with a mix of daemons using the old codex.  Who says I'm all of a sudden going to have a true Slaanesh army with all Slaanesh daemons under the new one?  Why wouldn't I continue to use my Bloodletters and Furies models?  In fact, since they're all identical now I could even mix them together in the same squads!  Now that's what I call a circus!  And if I wanted to pad my numbers I could just pick up a pack of Nurglings, put each on their own individual bases, and sprinkle them around my daemon units.  Not only would this be cheap, it would have the added bonus of annoying people like yourself!  Hey, maybe the new codex isn't so bad afterall!

So?

You can use each in their own squads, to keep them visually consistent or you can mix them all up as you wanted.  The choice is yours.  It has very little to do with "theme".  I suspect that we'd here a lot of *female dog*ing still if we had "generic demons" that could be marked to give you:

+1T for Plaguebearers
+1I for Demonettes
+1A for Bloodletters
4+ Inv Save for Horrors

Each mark costs +2 Points per model.  Then they'd be different, but still mediocre.  Would you still be here complaining about it?

You could mix and match stuff before and you can now.  You can also theme your force but must impose restrictions upon yourself.

About the only real complaints I see being valid is having models that were invalidated by the old dex.  For those players I happen to feel sorry for them and think it's a failing of GW in the Chaos Codex.

What I don't see as a failing is the little itty benefits or restrictions that the old rules placed on you for "theme", where as now the same "theme" can be replicated in many instances.

Again, no one's arguing about the power.  The old codex had problems with uber-builds.  But the answer is not to eliminate those builds completely, the answer is to balance the builds out so that no one is overwhelmingly powerful when compared to the others.

Regular Marines get specific rules for painting their armies different colors.  They're specific lists that differentiate them from other Marine armies.  Chaos should get a similar treatment.  Night Lords should be sneakier.  Iron Warrior should have more heavy stuff.  Word Bearers should get all sorts of daemons.  They just need to be balanced.  We've got point costs for a reason, use them!

Samwise158:

"There were too many abusive builds in the old codex that carried the theme of an army to stupid extremes.  I know I got tired of the tournament winning 9 Oblit/6 man Las-plas/4 Heavy list. "

What I am tired of is the idea that, because a few tournament players don't like something, the entire universe of 40K players, including the vast majority that aren't tournament players, have to have a watered-down insult to the intelligence like the new Chaos codex imposed on them.

"The new codex is more of a grab bag, while it got rid of daemonic gifts and the books of chaos it also got rid of many of the annoying constraints that made building an army frustrating."

Every army in 40K has some constraints.  Space Marines can't run all jump-pack command squads (unless they're Raven Guard).  Tyranids can't run two flying Hive Tyrants.  So what?   

"on the whole, this codex is a step in the right direction from the old one. "

If you're looking for over-simplified rules that appeal to spoiled ten-year-old brats who can nag their rich daddies to buy tons of stuff for them, sure it is. 

If the forthcoming demon codex doesn't restore most of the daemonic gifts and the cult army lists, I for one will confine using my World Eaters army to friendly games where I can use the previous codex. 

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 10/23/2007 4:27 PM
Again, no one's arguing about the power.  The old codex had problems with uber-builds.  But the answer is not to eliminate those builds completely, the answer is to balance the builds out so that no one is overwhelmingly powerful when compared to the others.

No the answer is to raise the level of the other list rather than have the thoroughbred list reduced to nag status.  But that would take effort and competence, better to geld the good list so everyone can enjoy mediocrity.

Posted By Dice Monkey on 10/23/2007 5:11 PM

Posted By The Power Cosmic on 10/23/2007 4:27 PM
Again, no one's arguing about the power.  The old codex had problems with uber-builds.  But the answer is not to eliminate those builds completely, the answer is to balance the builds out so that no one is overwhelmingly powerful when compared to the others.

No the answer is to raise the level of the other list rather than have the thoroughbred list reduced to nag status.  But that would take effort and competence, better to geld the good list so everyone can enjoy mediocrity.

You can raise the others up or tear the main offenders down.  Doesn't make any difference to me.  Like HBMC, I don't particularly care if Chaos is the most powerful codex.

well it looks like somone went back and read my post. I think that the comparison is not really effective with the leman russ, but.....well, I would not have played IG if they had a LR, then a demolisher that looked nothing like it. Or I was required to somhow paint it different. It would not feel like a unified theme. My problem with chaos is what I said, they dont have good themeing. SOme used daemons from all different types and it looks like an allied army. That is the main reason that I decided to play IG was because it "looked" and felt like an army. Then also ORKS. I heard nidds had a problem with that earlier where the genestealers looked nothing like the gaunts which made the army look stupid. Yes I do think they were overpowered before but that was not my point.

Are those deamonbombs still legal/possible?

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

 

My point was themeing not legality.  Im sure your list is legal, but it looks like a joke.  A circus.  Go ahead with all your freak show varietiy of daemons, im sure its effective and kick ass.  Like i said before, there will be NO THEME.  other than the I WANT TO WIN THEME.  They dont even look like an army.   Like I said, im sure its legal and everything, but theming is in the tip of you paint brush and in your artistic ability, NOT IN THE RULEBOOK.  Those who think other wise are clowns, so it makes sense they would miss the old ways, cause there is no longer a point for the head clown to be leader of the circus.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 5:46 PM

Like I said, im sure its legal and everything, but theming is in the tip of you paint brush and in your artistic ability, NOT IN THE RULEBOOK.

You must have a strange group that you play with.  Almost all the Chaos armies I've ever played against have been single legion, themed out the wazoo affairs.  The old codex went out of its way to provide support for the lesser played legions (not the god-aligned ones), and brought a lot more character to the undivided armies than they had ever had before.  And now they're paint schemes.

The old Codex gave you both.  The cool theme and cool rules to reward you for it.  They just needed balancing.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 5:46 PM

Those who think other wise are clowns, so it makes sense they would miss the old ways, cause there is no longer a point for the head clown to be leader of the circus.

And you've pretty much lost all sympathy or legitimacy right there.  If you're going to continue to troll and insult people, you're entering the "white noise" phase of your stay at Dakka.

THe only theme that I would ever see is nurgle, and I think I posted that an an earlier post. Everyone else had between 3-5 different types of daemons. It is my same problem with IG rough riders. They look like a joke. HORSES!!!!?? Are you kidding me?! Thats why I went out of my way to convert them and put them on motorcycles. Other wise they look stupid and ruin themeing. It starts to look like chaos. Also, they new ogryn are nice cause their uniforms look more like the standard guardmen. With the boot braces and such not to mention the aquila on the shoulder pad. Also, as for white noise stay, I dont really care. If somone wants to kick me out then go ahead. Whats to stop somone from creating a new email and ID and coming back in, not that I come in here much anways. Ive been on here almost 2 years an as you can see I dont post much. In fact I have not really played in over 4 months. I rather go out and enjoy life than sit in here and waste my time. These forums are just like the game somtimes, EXTREMELY broken and filled with people whose lives revolve around em.

Good on you for going with a more standardized theme.  Your guys must be from a very regimented, modern world.  That's sweet.  And you can pick and choose your doctrines to accentuate this.  Some people build medieval or WWI themed armies and use the horses to reinforce their theme.  But they have a choice.  Chaos doesn't have that anymore because all the armies are cut from the same cloth.

And if you have problems with the people you play, either talk to them about it or try to find other people to play with.  I was lucky where I met a group of guys who all have similar views towards how the game should be played and now I rarely venture outside of this group.  I don't need to.  You can find other people to play, sometimes it sucks, but you just have to look.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

So? You could do that before too you know, and nothing stopped you.

That was my point.  smart_alex was contrasting the old codex with the new one, saying that the old one encouraged "circus" builds.  My point was that the new one does the same thing, only moreso.  At least previously you had some in-game incentive to play a "pure" army.  But now?

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
I suspect that we'd here a lot of *female dog*ing still if we had "generic demons" that could be marked to give you:

+1T for Plaguebearers
+1I for Demonettes
+1A for Bloodletters
4+ Inv Save for Horrors

Each mark costs +2 Points per model.  Then they'd be different, but still mediocre.  Would you still be here complaining about it?

Yes, and the complaint would be the same.  There should be more differences between a Daemonette and a Bloodletter than a mere ±1I or ±1A.  However, that still would have been preferable to what we actually got.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 10/23/2007 3:53 PM
What I don't see as a failing is the little itty benefits or restrictions that the old rules placed on you for "theme", where as now the same "theme" can be replicated in many instances.

In the old codex Thousand Sons sucked, but I could still make a nice fluffy Thousand Sons army with rubric terminators and sorcerer lords and sorcerer chosen.  I can't do that anymore.  If I try to build a Thousand Sons army using the new codex I find that I run out of choices the moment I look outside of the Troops section of the army list.  Sure, I can field a "Tzeentch-themed" army with Thousand Sons squads, but if I can't field a Thousand Sons army.  It seems my "theme" has been significantly watered-down.

Putting effectiveness aside, the old codex contained 9 different fluffy army lists.  There were 4 different kinds of Death Guard squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Havocs), 4 different kinds of Thousand Sons squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Rubric Terminators), 4 different kinds of World Eaters squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers), and 5 different kinds of Emperor's Children squad (CSM, Chosen, Possessed, Bikers, Havocs).  Now there are 1 each.  And no, squads with an Icon are not the same as cult squads (Tzeentch terminators are neither sorcerers nor rubrics, Khorne bikers are not Fearless, Slaanesh havocs can't take sonic weapons, etc).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely fluffy armies the new codex is a failure.

The old codex contained a number of strong builds.  Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, and, of course, Iron Warriors could all build very competitive lists.  Now there is one strong build (Fzorgle).  So when it comes to encouraging variation in purely competitive armies the new codex is a failure.

On the other hand Black Legion armies got a whole lot more varied - Black Legion can take all sorts of marked non-cult squads.  This shouldn't be surprising considering the single army list in the codex is basically the Black Legion list.  The new codex could be considered a fairly successful Codex: Black Legion.  But as a Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the new codex is a dismal failure.

Why is it that everyone's excited about the Ork Codex and so many were down on Chaos? Because the Orks list kept a lot of the options, and brought back some old favorites (Shokk Attack Gun?). That meant they even kept a bunch of units that were always--and continue to be--less than effective. Can you build a strong list? Sure, but the Ork players are happy that they can field models they've had for years as the models they represent.

The chaos players are unhappy for the opposite reasons: their specific daemons with their specific abilities, their cult lists, their wacky legion themed armies are now generic. Everything is the same. No variation. Yes, you can still field daemons, and cult troops, but they've not been maintained in character any way like the Ork boyz have been.

Orks needed a fix; they were underpowered. Chaos needed a fix; they were overpowered. But there was a way to do it without losing the flavor, and GW blew it.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/23/2007 5:46 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 10/23/2007 2:39 PM

How is an army themed when they have Thousand Sons, Raptors, Obliterators, and a Greater Daemon of _____^* led by a pair of Slaaneshi Fzorglerors?  In fact what incentive do the rules give me not to have my Khorne army led by two Fzorgle Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh?  Not only is it perfectly legal, I don't even have to worry about losing my free champions anymore!

^* : Who cares?  THEY'RE ALL THE SAME!

 

My point was themeing not legality.  Im sure your list is legal, but it looks like a joke.  A circus.  Go ahead with all your freak show varietiy of daemons, im sure its effective and kick ass.  Like i said before, there will be NO THEME.  other than the I WANT TO WIN THEME.  They dont even look like an army.   Like I said, im sure its legal and everything, but theming is in the tip of you paint brush and in your artistic ability, NOT IN THE RULEBOOK.  Those who think other wise are clowns, so it makes sense they would miss the old ways, cause there is no longer a point for the head clown to be leader of the circus.

I'd just like to let you know that I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Posted By smart_alex on 10/22/2007 10:54 PM
I have TONS of themeing in my army, my vehicles match my troops' uniforms as well as unit insignia, commanders fit in, and they are all painted so as to have a SINGLE look. Themeing is at the tip of your brush and in your artistic ability, not in a rulebook. The only theme I would ever see in chaos armies is the "I want to win" theme.

Wow.  So a 'themed' army is one that is all matchy-matchy?  W00t!  Here comes my primer-gray themed chaos renegades!