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I've yet to read the new book myself but am beginning to get an idea of the changes.

I'd like to hear speculation from those who know more and know nids (possibly also from opponents' point of view), what is going to change??

AFAIK Montstrous creatures can run too. Is this true? And what does running mean word to word?
Are we now going to see more hth mutations on things like fexes?
What does true Los mean in your opinion to Nids? Atleast before buildings and terrain evolve to v5. to give vehicles and bg things some Los blocking cover.

Do you think Tyranids get stronger or weaker?


I know we are about to find out in gaming, but it is fun to speculate and I've yet to get a game with my "Mechzilla" TWAR and still have the option to tweaking what I build to suit v5.

I think being able to run a screen of gaunts in front of your 'stealers and warriors could change things considerably.

Add in the boost to feeder tendrils for 'stealers and you're looking at a marked increase in their effectiveness.

I might even be tempted to take the broodlord now that he can run.

what exactly is the boost for feeder tendrils?

Preferred enemy is changed from the useless 'always hit on a 3+' to allowing you to reroll your hits. Which means you'll be hitting with 8/9 attacks.

I'm more keen on the gaunt screen, though.

I'd like to hear speculation from those who know more and know nids (possibly also from opponents' point of view), what is going to change??

My early thoughts

AFAIK Montstrous creatures can run too. Is this true? And what does running mean word to word?

Running is much like fleet is now (give up shooting to run 1D6" in the shooting phase), except you cannot assault if you run. So now fleet rules is basically to allow one to assault after run.

Are we now going to see more hth mutations on things like fexes?

It makes close combat fexes more viable. So does the removal of escalation and recon style missions from the basic missions (granted there is a chance of ol school reserves -- eg 1 HQ and 2 troops deploy, all else in reserves)

However I still see shooty carnifexes as better for much the same reasons as now. At least close combat ones have are a bit more viable.

Also note some mutations have no known benefit (thorny back) and others get better (Bio-plasma won't keep the carnifex from using the rest of his attacks on the charge due to model removal; tail upgrades more likely to be usable due to charge reactions).

What does true Los mean in your opinion to Nids? Atleast before buildings and terrain evolve to v5. to give vehicles and bg things some Los blocking cover.

I think it hurts stuff like stealer shock cause no LOS is better then 4+ save. However I think standard horde nids get better since it as pretty hard to hide with that many models anyways. MCs, it is probably better overall, mostly cause 4+ cover is much easier to get (even woods provides 4+). Just watch putting gunfexes in ruins though cause true LOS may keep them from shooting.

Do you think Tyranids get stronger or weaker?

I think the power of the various builds becomes more flattened. eg Nidzilla is not so much better then other builds, although the way close combat works I think nidzilla is still strongest. So in that sense I think they get a bit stronger cause so much more of the army is viable.

I'm still wrapping my brain around the subtler points and strategies for winning games though. It does seem to me that a shooty army will have a much easier time dealing with nids overall. 4+ saves help the warriors and stealers a bit when behind the hordes but through the course of a game it may be hard to have the units to hold objectives, the synapse to keep gaunst holding objectives and still gut the opponent in close combat (or via nidzilla style shooting). I am hoping to get some 5ed games in the next few weeks before forming any real conclusions.

Hope that helps and perhaps the more notable nid players will pipe up.

Well what do you think about Genestealers in v5?
with rending being watered down will they still be as good?
I equipe my Warriors with Scything talons & rending claws. Once again with rending changing, I might have to go with a long range weapon (which might help in holding objectives with my gaunts).
What do you all think, is rending even still worth having?

Nid zilla actually took a decent hit. With the change in the way vehicle damage works, the venom cannon is now extreamly bad at anti tank work (and most of the other shooting weapons were never very good at it to begin with). Specificaly, the damage chart got changed so that vehicles are destroyed on a 5 or a 6. However, all glancing hits roll on the chart at a -2. Since the venom cannon can only ever glance, it can never destroy a vehicle in a single shot. It is forced to to it via multiple immobalized/weapon destroyed results. And while things like devourers and what not are decent light tank busters at short range, nids now have almost no viable long ranged anti tank fire power. Warp blast is about the only thing left.

Killing tanks in hand to hand is probably a bump. Tanks are just as difficult / easy to hit as they were before (maybe a bit easier since the rules favor static tanks now), however, rending only adds 1d3 (not 1d6) extra penetration on vehicles when you roll a 6 for armor penetration. On the flip side though, in hand to hand, you always hit the rear armor. The net effect is that most tanks will probably be about as hard to damage as before with the exceptions of the land raider and the monolith. Both of those tanks will be well neigh invincible to most of the nid army. You'll need to get a monsterous creature into hand to hand with one of those in order to bring it down.

Some rambling thoughts:

I like leaping Warriors in 5th. People forget this, but leaping Warriors were the $hit back in early 4th, when they were classified as Beasts. Running isn't quite Fleet, but the 12" assault means the Fleet roll isn't as necessary in the assaulting turn. Warriors take a little hit in that rending's getting downpowered, although the adrenal gland +1 WS will help out a bit there. And one less PF attack back is a good thing for Warriors.

If Warriors are better, hordes will be better. And plentiful cover saves will be good for Gaunts. I actually don't think hordes were as bad as people made them out to be in 4th, but I think they'll be better in 5th.

Genestealers have the feeder tentacles option to help counter the rending nerf. With 4+ cover saves being plentiful, I still like Genestealers a lot.

I think heavy Gunfexes will still have their place with the new glancing rules. All VCs mostly had to do in 4th is shake tanks, and they'll still do that. I'm very much in the wait-and-see camp on assaulty Carnifexes. They'll be better, but I don't know if their assault ability is worth more than their guns would be in the context of a Tyranid army.

I still don't have my head wrapped around how Tyranids are going to handle the missions. Tyranid Troops aren't particularly good objective grabbers. While a lurking Gaunt brood will be hard to budge, it's not performing its proper role and isn't scoring unless synapse is nearby. And the best synapse for that task is a Zoey, which I *think* will get hurt by kill points, if I understand the rule properly. Right now my theory is to ignore objective grabbing and concentrate on wiping out their Troops and contesting everyplace I can. Kill points do a pretty good job of killing off Raveners, too.

Phoenix wrote:Nid zilla actually took a decent hit. With the change in the way vehicle damage works, the venom cannon is now extreamly bad at anti tank work (and most of the other shooting weapons were never very good at it to begin with). Specificaly, the damage chart got changed so that vehicles are destroyed on a 5 or a 6. However, all glancing hits roll on the chart at a -2. Since the venom cannon can only ever glance, it can never destroy a vehicle in a single shot. It is forced to to it via multiple immobalized/weapon destroyed results. And while things like devourers and what not are decent light tank busters at short range, nids now have almost no viable long ranged anti tank fire power. Warp blast is about the only thing left.

Killing tanks in hand to hand is probably a bump. Tanks are just as difficult / easy to hit as they were before (maybe a bit easier since the rules favor static tanks now), however, rending only adds 1d3 (not 1d6) extra penetration on vehicles when you roll a 6 for armor penetration. On the flip side though, in hand to hand, you always hit the rear armor. The net effect is that most tanks will probably be about as hard to damage as before with the exceptions of the land raider and the monolith. Both of those tanks will be well neigh invincible to most of the nid army. You'll need to get a monsterous creature into hand to hand with one of those in order to bring it down.

I think the gameplan with tanks will be to keep shaking them with VCs and ignore them until you get close enough to pop 'em in h2h. Like you said, tanks are becoming static pillboxes. And if that pillbox isn't shooting, it's Advantage Tyranids.

Regarding MCs, I think my winged Tyrant will stay in the foam for a while. It doesn't have a friendly LOS profile at all. I think the Tyrant of 5th will be on foot and won't leave home without a full complement of Tyrant Guards.

Darth Balls wrote:I equipe my Warriors with Scything talons & rending claws. Once again with rending changing, I might have to go with a long range weapon (which might help in holding objectives with my gaunts).
What do you all think, is rending even still worth having?

Make sure they're leaping, and I think they'll be fine. The WS boost is an option to consider now.

I dunno, it seems to me that the new combat resolution will have quite the negative impact on Nids. Currently a unit of Rippers or Gaunts can roll up on some infantry, lose by 7 or 8 and shrug it off. With the new combat res that'll cost them a near-doubling of wounds. Further, the counter-attack style combat rollin will make ordinary infantry more competitive vs. Stealers.

Ironic, Nids now dont have any good CC unit without major flaws: Genes get shot to pieces due to LOS on everything and dont even have the ability to hunt hordes like orks , Hormas suffer the same , Raveners will die to counter attack ,CC warriors same as Ravener,Gaunts .... ? forget them .

So the solutions are 1 go to a close range shooty army ,which will got more dakkafex and shooty warriors; 2 if you are really good at tactics,use multible units hit at same time win the combat and then , wait , they got rapid fired ....Grrrrr..... ok, my money is on the type 1.

I dunno, gaunts with feeder tendril support aren't bad at all.
Against MEq
3/4 reroll hit * 1/3 wound * 1/3 fail save = 1/12 (same as a single marine attack).

5 point models that end up hitting as well as a bolter toting marine in close combat ain't too shabby. No it ain't as good as orks but it is something.

Currently a unit of Rippers or Gaunts can roll up on some infantry, lose by 7 or 8 and shrug it off. With the new combat res that'll cost them a near-doubling of wounds.

I need to read the 5ed rules regarding this to be sure but gaunts in synapse are not fearless, they simply automatically pass the leadership test. I was thinking that may save them from the additional wounds depending on wording.

ED209 wrote:Ironic, Nids now dont have any good CC unit without major flaws: Genes get shot to pieces due to LOS on everything and dont even have the ability to hunt hordes like orks , Hormas suffer the same , Raveners will die to counter attack ,CC warriors same as Ravener,Gaunts .... ? forget them .

So the solutions are 1 go to a close range shooty army ,which will got more dakkafex and shooty warriors; 2 if you are really good at tactics,use multible units hit at same time win the combat and then , wait , they got rapid fired ....Grrrrr..... ok, my money is on the type 1.

Horde CC Nids will rely on out-slotting the enemy and hitting them with multiple units in a single assault phase to overpower them. If you have 12+ units on the board and 3-5 of them assault into CC all on the same turn I'd wager a LOT of armies will be hard pressed to have much rapidfire opportunity left when the CC bugs break through.

This also means that fire will have to be split between threatening CC units and the TMCs, which will be bearing down as well - most likely popping templates all the way.

Also using very large brood sizes in the weak CC broods will help keep CC results a lot closer than you might think, or allow them to sustain several losing rounds if combat doesn't balance out.

I think bugs will do well. I'd wouldn't be surprised to see 'Horde-Zilla' lists pop up now with 104+ gaunts supported by Genestealers AND 8 TMCs in an 1850pt. game. I already have a list like that in the wings to try out when the 5th ed book becomes available for play in my area.

I don't think any particular army list looks totally dominant in 5th ed. (yet), even the Mech-Eldar or what have you... it'll be a new game for a while!

some running fexes with crushing claws or twin scything talons will be fabulous distraction units if nothing else - your opponent just can't afford to ignore them.

I was starting to think that Nids may actually work as envisioned in 5th. Running Tyrants w/ Guard and Running Warriors, getting 4+ Cover saves from screening Gaunts, can keep Gaunts in Synapse, letting you get into assault with shooty elements on Turn 2/3, leaving time for your Fex's/MC's/Stealers to get there in the second wave.

I think that "Without Number" might actually be worthwhile for grabbing objectives. In v5, the gaunts will be scoring until the very last model, then they can recycle with a 2d6 fall back/forward to the central synapse already on the board. Perhaps a Hive Tyrant with full Guard to sit on the objective, drawing the guants to score.

Rockit wrote:I think bugs will do well. I'd wouldn't be surprised to see 'Horde-Zilla' lists pop up now with 104+ gaunts supported by Genestealers AND 8 TMCs in an 1850pt. game. I already have a list like that in the wings to try out when the 5th ed book becomes available for play in my area.

I took a 1750 Tyranid list to last year's Baltimore GT with 100+ models, a few Genestealers and 6 MCs. I made it to table 6 before my lack of playing (seriously like two other games of 40K all year) caught up to me. I know hordes have their doubters, but there's no doubt in my mind the list was quite strong. It just required more practice than I was able to give it. And all that being said, I think horde Tyranids will be better in 5th as long as we can figure a few things out.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I was starting to think that Nids may actually work as envisioned in 5th. Running Tyrants w/ Guard and Running Warriors, getting 4+ Cover saves from screening Gaunts, can keep Gaunts in Synapse, letting you get into assault with shooty elements on Turn 2/3, leaving time for your Fex's/MC's/Stealers to get there in the second wave.

Yep, I agree. They might actually play as the designer intended.

gorgon wrote:I think the gameplan with tanks will be to keep shaking them with VCs and ignore them until you get close enough to pop 'em in h2h. Like you said, tanks are becoming static pillboxes. And if that pillbox isn't shooting, it's Advantage Tyranids.

The problem with that line of logic is that pill box tanks are going to end up with 4+ cover saves. This means that half your shooting does nothing right off the bat. So its going to be harder to shake the tanks than it was before, not just harder to destroy them. This is, of course, before you get into hand to hand where cover saves don't exist.

Phoenix wrote:

gorgon wrote:I think the gameplan with tanks will be to keep shaking them with VCs and ignore them until you get close enough to pop 'em in h2h. Like you said, tanks are becoming static pillboxes. And if that pillbox isn't shooting, it's Advantage Tyranids.

The problem with that line of logic is that pill box tanks are going to end up with 4+ cover saves. This means that half your shooting does nothing right off the bat. So its going to be harder to shake the tanks than it was before, not just harder to destroy them. This is, of course, before you get into hand to hand where cover saves don't exist.

True that, at least Tyranid weapons profiles are 'attacks times X' and the Nids which shoot the big guns have 2+ attacks to utilize. It's more shots downrange to try to get by the cover saves... no more shots than they have now but still a good thing.

Here are some of the big changes I see with Tyranids in v5. Please note that all of these concepts could easily change if GW changes some of the codex wordings with v5 codex FAQs that are rumored to come out around the time of the rulebook. Also, these are just my thoughts based on reading the v5 rulebook, not with actually playing any v5 games.


Hive Tyrants: Monstrous Creatures are only screened by intervening troops if more than 50% of their body is blocked. That means if you want to get the screening cover save via friendly units you'll need to use other MCs or Tyranid Warriors. . .not really the best options for something like a winged Tyrant.

Of course, opposing units still screen each other, so if an enemy has to draw LOS through another enemy unit your Tyrant will still get a cover save. Overall I would think that Flying Tyrants will be seen more often which means that the entire enemy army will be able to focus to bring them down a bit faster. You may want to consider taking a slightly cheaper version of the flying Tyrant (only absolutely necessary biomorphs) or stick with a walking version with Tyrant Guard.

Speaking of Tyrant Guard, since they are much smaller models than a Tyrant (and not MCs) and all that matters for a unit to get a cover save is if the majority of the models are obscured, as long as you have 2+ Tyrant guard you will be able to screen the Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit with pretty much any other Tyranid unit.


Tyranid Warriors: These puppies can now be screened by gaunts giving them a 4+ save and they can run, meaning they should be a viable unit to use, although they are still very expensive for what they do. I personally feel the new rules tip the balance even further away from flying warriors since the only unit that could keep up with them enough to screen them would be Gargoyles. But an all flying force sounds like an interesting challenge to play with.


Lictors: Will they always have to take a DT terrain test when Deep Striking since they always DS into terrain? Here's hoping they change that with the 5th edition FAQ.


Stealers: The stealer shock tactic should still be in full effect, especially since now you can bring a cover save with you in the form of scuttling spinegaunts. A squad or two of stripped down Tyranid Warriors can even join the fray to help keep the gaunts in line until the Stealers clean up.

You will definitely need to hit the enemy en masse with stealers so that you aren't obliterated by return fire since you can no longer consolidate into combat. The weakening of the rending rules may actually turn out to be okay since you won't obliterate your enemies to the point where you guarantee that they run away. I think Extended Carapace is a complete requirement now since in combat you will almost always be facing more return attacks from the enemy (since the opponent can pull casualties from anywhere in the unit).


Guants: The cheap-o screening gaunt should really be good as gold now to provide you that cover save for your Stealers, Hormagaunts, Tyranid Warriors, etc.


Hormagaunts: The elimination of Escalation means this unit is amazing now all tooled up if taken in large enough numbers. I expect that armies based around several big units of Hormagaunts should do pretty darn well in v5. You can still use Spinegaunts to screen them in the first turn and after that the Hormagaunts will be into combat. You'll need several big units to make sure you can hit a whole section of the enemy army in unision. This will help minimize the whole return-fire element of the new rules.

Tooled up hormies are even going to be able to take out any (non-walker) vehicles in CC that have an AV10 rear armor thanks to the new rules.


Gargoyles: Still a unit that is a pretty good deal on paper but in reality struggles to do anything very well. Still a bit too expensive for my tastes to use as a fast screen for other flyers, but again an all flying army could be some wacky fun.


Zoanthropes: Can be screened giving them a 4+ cover save, which is pretty strong. Plus the fact that Venom Cannons are going to struggle to kill vehicles makes their Warp Blast all the more attractive.


Carnifexes: Still awesome and the Godzilla army should still be incredibly potent. Losing the ability to take out tanks with any Venom Cannon shot definitely hurts the Tyranid army's ability to take out vehicles at range, but since vehicles are now easier to kill in CC it may help reinforce a more balanced Tyranid army. With the loss of Escalation and the addition of running, other Carnifex configurations besides the Gunfex and Dakkafex are definitely much more valid.


Biovores: Barrage weapons firing at stuff out of LOS scatter the full 2D6 (ignoring the firer's BS), which means unless you roll a 'hit' with your Biovores your mines are going to miss by quite a bit. I'd still leave these puppies at home.


Deathspitter: The Deathspitter tends to be more expensive than the Devourer in the army list and the question remains if they new blast weapons make this wepaon a better choice. My gut instinct is that for the most part the Devourer is still the better weapon for the army, but I definitely want to play some proxy games to try the weapon out.

yakface wrote:Stealers: The stealer shock tactic should still be in full effect, especially since now you can bring a cover save with you in the form of scuttling spinegaunts. A squad or two of stripped down Tyranid Warriors can even join the fray to help keep the gaunts in line until the Stealers clean up.

At a 25% increase on the base price, you’re probably better off with greater numbers. The argument for EC was to double survivability against AP5 weapons, and with the cover save that argument is gone.

I expect to see feeder tendrils as the only upgrade on 'stealers in future.

sebster wrote:

At a 25% increase on the base price, you’re probably better off with greater numbers. The argument for EC was to double survivability against AP5 weapons, and with the cover save that argument is gone.

I expect to see feeder tendrils as the only upgrade on 'stealers in future.

You may well be right, however the increased amount of attacks back from opponents in CC along with the post-combat return fire (where your stealers may well not be getting cover saves) makes me still want to run Extended Carapace.

I'll have to try it both ways.

yakface wrote:You may well be right, however the increased amount of attacks back from opponents in CC along with the post-combat return fire (where your stealers may well not be getting cover saves) makes me still want to run Extended Carapace.

I'll have to try it both ways.

True, it's probably another thing that we'll know a year from now.

Guys the most important thing to remember for Nids is rending can be abused.

Split your stealers 2/1 between acid maw and feeder tendrils, and so long as you have 1 stealer with feeder tendrils left (or a broodlord, or a lictor) you can re-roll hits and re-roll wounds.

In a warrior/ripper army this doesn't apply, but in a warrior/stealer army based on leaping/scutting and lots of rending...you just never upgrade your strength.

The higher the opponents toughness, the more chances at rending you will get.

Yes, this is obvious to some and not so much to others...but it needs to be said.

I think this will be the central combination of any Nid list not based around Godzilla.

Re-roll hits, re-roll wounds, keep chance of wounding low to maximize rends.

I know I don't like the warrior/stealer combo. Everyone has saves, everyone moves through cover, stealers go first...warriors go second. With leaping and counterassault you run your warriors past your stealers into assault and pull the enemy into range. It's a dirty trick but it works very well.

This is how I'd run it. Yes you can run Raveners, I just like having Synapse and Raveners tend to charge without the stealer support. Both work fine, it's all about your playstyle.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/213006.page

looking forward to an updated Carnifex Tactica from you some time, Yak, especially on close combat fexes. Thanks for your early comments above, I'll certainly be rewriting my army list once I've had a few trial games

Stelek wrote:Guys the most important thing to remember for Nids is rending can be abused.

Split your stealers 2/1 between acid maw and feeder tendrils, and so long as you have 1 stealer with feeder tendrils left (or a broodlord, or a lictor) you can re-roll hits and re-roll wounds.

In a warrior/ripper army this doesn't apply, but in a warrior/stealer army based on leaping/scutting and lots of rending...you just never upgrade your strength.

The higher the opponents toughness, the more chances at rending you will get.

Yes, this is obvious to some and not so much to others...but it needs to be said.

I think this will be the central combination of any Nid list not based around Godzilla.

Re-roll hits, re-roll wounds, keep chance of wounding low to maximize rends.

That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. One thing that worries me, strangely is that I'd be afraid to make rending *too* effective as you'd end up wiping out your opponent or beating them so badly that you'd be guaranteeing that they run away. Have you run into that problem at all?

In many cases it would seem to be better to have a moderately dangerous CC unit (as opposed to a lethal one) that maximizes the chance to stay locked in combat during the opponents turn.

I guess both those upgrades give you the *option* to re-roll (I think -- I don't have my codex on me right now) so I guess you'd have the option to make your stealers be more or less deadly as needed.

Well I think the 'new' MC-less nids will be in a loooong line of stealers/warriors, giving each other cover saves as much as possible; and hitting you all at once...on everything they can.

In addition to what Stelek has said, and in continuance of Yakface:

I have been a Tyranid horde player for about a year now and while I am no great of the game, I have crunched a LOT of numbers and thought through how I will adapt to the new addition, so id liek to share my thoughts (feel free to correct me however!):

That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. One thing that worries me, strangely is that I'd be afraid to make rending *too* effective as you'd end up wiping out your opponent or beating them so badly that you'd be guaranteeing that they run away. Have you run into that problem at all?

This is exactly correct, and something I feel will become a bigger problem with the advent of combat squad space marines en masse - you mess up a unit, and whether you kill it or not, there is a good chance you will become unlocked, and the rest of the marine boys will happy walk up and frag you. With good spacing, it will be difficult to pin a second wave of support units, no matter what army you face, so it seems likely that we will suffer somewhat at the hands of the new consolidate rule.

My thoughts: Hormagaunts I feel benefit rather a lot from the new addition, which before continuing I will outline in brief:
1. no escalate, so they will always be on the board. In addition, due to deployment in two of the new missions, they can be a real hinderance to your opponent's depoyment options.
2. Feeder tendril buff - even without biomorphs, its a +50% damage buff (from hit on 4s, so 0.5 hits to 4s with re-rolls for 0.75 hits).
3. New cove rules - given they are going to be advancing, screening them for a single turn with a gaunt brood (which doesnt cost you any moment, because you both go 6"+D6" first turn) so they will be a bit tougher.
4. Not a buff for them, but other synapse is more easily available to keep up now, making them more manageable
5. Hitting vehicles on rear armour in assault, with S4 hormagaunts gives some interesting options

Im going to experiment with S4 hormagaunts - they mix well with a lictor or broodlord, causing huge amounts of damage to any other infantry. Assuming hitting on 4+, each 4 Gaunt generates a glancing hit - so a unit of 16 would cause 4 glances - there is a good chance of a shaken + weapon destroyed/immobilized result, and gives you a good chance of getting to keep hitting the vehicle in THEIR turn, when you are hitting automatically (1 glancing per 3 gaunts remaining).

So now, all the way back to responding to Yakface (sorry about the rant). I think its going to be CRITICAL to engage the enemy en masse, across a broader front than otherwise Tyranid players have been, so as to minimise how much combats are going to be won by. Im even now trying to do a "slow assault" wherein I minimise how many of my models can attack - minimising how much I win combat by. Ill inevitably destroy the unit Im fighting in THEIR turn, after we all move in, and it saves me from shooting, and creates a pure LOS block for my synapse.

Otherwise, it may be worth trying to get lesser gaunts into combat with more expensive units, so when the enemy does break, the gaunts consolidate forward and the better units backwards, so as the gaunts create a shield for 4+ coversaves if nothing else.

I think Raveners, and to a lesser extent Lictors will still be important, because they can keep enemies locked in combat, or pin small units you might not otherwise be able to engage, so that you;re limiting how many units are rapid firing you.

With the new vehicle rules, im starting to see more tanks sitting in terrain, which is great fun with Lictors - often 4S6 rending auto hitting attacks against rear armour is obviously going to be good - and he now has a 2+ cover save when they try and shoot him up - or when shielded by gaunts...maybe a little more viable?

Point wise, feeder tendrils are almost identical to acid maw against MEQ (maw is much better vs T5+), but to get the combination Stelek mentioned, you do end up invensting heavily in Genestealers. There is nothing wrong with that, but I feel a more gaunt based force is equally viable - gaunts actually get more from feeder tendrils (in terms of % increase in damage to point) due to their lower starting capabilities. 6 points of feeder tendrils can benefit 40+ gaunts, rather significantly.

Overall, I feel this addition gave a lot to my gaunt horde (i dont play with TMCs so Ill not comment on those), such as:
1. running warriors and brood lord
2. no escalate
3. feeder tendrils

My list always struggled with very vehicle heavy armies which I think will be a thing of the past with new scoring rules (which I feel is a mistake, no reason that old style lists wont work in V5, just stop the enemy from scoring and contest, win on VPs), so the horde only gets stronger.

All that said, Im a very green player, especially compared to many of the players on this board. Nonetheless, id love to continue this discussion - its nicer than the "my army doesnt work anymore" threads that are spreading like wild fire over the internet.

James F.

I agree with you guys about Hormagaunts being better...but I still don't like the price/resilience ratio of the unit, especially if we're talking about 12 or 13 pt. Hormies that will be more vulnerable to rapid-firing after winning assaults. I'll give them a try and see, but I still like regular Gaunts. When cover saves become plentiful, it's the cheapest stuff that's going to see the most improvement.

Regarding attacking across a broader front, I was thinking something similar. Realistically, I don't know how we're going to avoid having units take rapid-fire in the face after winning combats. Since we can't be as fiddly with our assaults in 5th, it's going to be harder to plan for that second phase CC win. So I think contacting the other army in at least two locations simultaneously will be key. That'll force some difficult decisions about where to use those supporting units. We're going to have units get shot to pieces...the trick might be making them pay elsewhere when they do so.

So with that in mind, do Broodlords and Lictors suddenly get more interesting? Maybe. Okay, the BL is definitely more interesting, although I wish it was more reliable. We're going to get refused flanked...no question about it. And if the BL comes in on the wrong flank...not good. On the other hand, the Lictor's deployment is more reliable, but it doesn't hit even remotely as hard as the BL. And the Lictor's cost still makes this old bug a sad panda.

@Phoenix: Vehicles may benefit from cover saves, but I really don't see tanks becoming a bigger problem for Tyranids. The high S and multiple shots of VCs mean we should still be glancing at a decent rate, and 5 out of 6 glancing results means no shooting. Then when we're close, they're toast. I could be wrong, but I really see this taking care of itself once we start playing with 5th.

I'll tell you what I like. I like big butts and I can not lie......

Right now my SAFH marines need just about every turn they get to shoot the big ones against Godzilla. Sometimes I even need to create an extra turn of shooting somehow. I know SAFH marines are soon to be gone, at least my version, but I think 8 TMC's can still be very viable. 6 Carnies up close and running is nothing at all to sneeze at. In fact it would put tremendous pressure on the enemy to bring them down before they reach the lines. A Flyrant and walking Tyrant with body guard can add to this apprehension. The Heavy Fexes probably only need a venom cannon and scything talons so they can either shoot vehicles or run into combat with the rest. Venom Cannons don't need to kill. Shake and stun is usually good enough, but if you get an immobilised, then the other units can catch it and kill it.

Remember all those powerfist toting champs and sarges now lose an attack in close combat. No more 5 man lascannon teams, assault cannons going down to 1 per squad for termies, rending losing some of it's potency and the general removal of heavy weapons from the field make the Carnies live just a turn longer. Running lets them get to the lines just a turn sooner. This all spells trouble in my mind.