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I am wondering if we won't see more diverse sets of 'fexs in 5th. There might be something to be said for having say one or two dakka 'fex who just walk forward and shoot, and for elites have a shooter, a shooter/melee combo, and a melee runner. Since making tanks move now can reduce their non-ordnance fire power significantly, making them redeploy to get away from a melee 'fex is almost as good as shaking them. With Zoey's to kill, two dakka fex's to shake, a shooty fex to kill infantry, a mix fex to walk forward and kill infantry/shake vehicles or assault a convenient tank, and one melee fex to pressure the opponant into moving tanks or focusing fire on him, one might be well served.
It might not be ideal, but it would be more interesting than the current "hot list".

Maybe I just want to see giant bugs crushing things in melee too much.

yakface wrote:

Stealers: The stealer shock tactic should still be in full effect, especially since now you can bring a cover save with you in the form of scuttling spinegaunts. A squad or two of stripped down Tyranid Warriors can even join the fray to help keep the gaunts in line until the Stealers clean up.

You will definitely need to hit the enemy en masse with stealers so that you aren't obliterated by return fire since you can no longer consolidate into combat. The weakening of the rending rules may actually turn out to be okay since you won't obliterate your enemies to the point where you guarantee that they run away. I think Extended Carapace is a complete requirement now since in combat you will almost always be facing more return attacks from the enemy (since the opponent can pull casualties from anywhere in the unit).

I think EC is not necessary since you can take offensive grenade (forgot what it's called) and strike at initiative. In most cases Stealers have higher initiative than most of their opponents. Thus their attacks would strike and wound before any strike backs. Unless you're facing 30 boyz most units would only have a few models left to strike back.

You need enemy models alive to strike back. Or the genestealers get shot. Both make EC worthy. 'No consolidation into another melee' change is making precautions necessary.

The biomorph is Flesh hooks.

What I really want to see in action is death spitters. I think the new template rules will likely make them more viable. Particularly with the meta game shifting towards hordes.

Thanks guys! Great discussion.

I think the point about PFs losing an attack, and less/lesseffective rending in the opposition is indeed a major advantage to big nasty builds.

I'm excited to mix and match my fexes more for some neat modeling opportunities

yakface wrote:

Biovores: Barrage weapons firing at stuff out of LOS scatter the full 2D6 (ignoring the firer's BS), which means unless you roll a 'hit' with your Biovores your mines are going to miss by quite a bit. I'd still leave these puppies at home.

Just because I love biovores I have to ask.

Since the spores will now give a modicum of screening ability does this not actually help as often as it becomes useless? The leadership test NO to shoot them has helped me more often than seems valid already, and has more than once led to them killing enemies (once involved manditory charge on them since they were closest - a classic). Always aim for the front lines. Plus despite the rather annoying odds, bioacid is still one of the few things that can theoretically penetrate av14 at range.

The main problem for me is they cannot CLAIM objectives now. That hurts - I always had them on one in 4e.


shrug

Target priority is no longer a factor in 5th ed. Kirsanth...

If the spore mines obscure LOS to a majority of another unit then they would provide a 4+ cover save to the target unit... that works both ways though!

Yeah, but since sporemines land in a nice little clump the chance of that blocking LOS to the majority of models in a unit is very, very slim. Certainly not worth considering whether to use/not use the unit.

With target priority being kaput Spore mines can't even draw enemy fire anymore.


The new LOS rules means your biovores will likely be able to be shot by the enemy if they want or if you do find a place to put them out of LOS then your spore mines scatter a full 2D6" when you miss.

Overall it just feels to me like biovores (which I never liked in the new codex) have gotten even worse.

Question in regard to Zoanthropes, and some gaming theory (who doesnt love that?).

Firstly facts:
1. They are T4 with a 2+ save
2. Obscurement means they will typically have a 4+ cover save
3. They are long creatures, so unlikely to draw too much fire, as often it is a waste (so long as you dont walk into plasma gun range until it is tied up)
4. They have toxic miasma

So, with all of that in mind...
1. Will the fact that they are so much taller than friendly models allow them to fire at enemies without giving a cover save? Friendly models arent really in the way per se.
2. Im considering using them as pure force multipliers with synapse and catalyst, then running them into CC for a -1 WS modifier (which I asume given the wording is not cumulative)...think about if for just a second. Enemies suffer -1 WS, so MEQ drop to WS3...hordes of gaunts got TOUGHER, while WS4 hormagaunts, perhaps with feeder tendrils nearby, go up to 2/3 or 8/9 hits per attack.

Same applies to Ork boy hordes, who of course have a lot of trouble killing zoanthropes, aside from Nob power klaws of course.

Any merit to that sort of idea?

I think we will just have to shoot before we assault with the gaunts or stealers or fexes...think if you shoot the troops around the squad youre about to assault into, and you wipea good portion of them who cares if they get cover save smost of our Nids guns arent ap low enought to care about the saves they may get so if you shoot what could be in range of rapid firing your troops the damage will be much less.

EC for stealers I think will be a solid choice for the reason being most rapid fire guns are ap 5 like bolters and gauss flayers etc, so itd be an almost automatic wipe on the troop uinless the numbers come out lucky...

One thing about zoeys is that in kill points missions, each one is worth one. Not sure if they're worth it then.

Are they? Im pretty sure its the selection is worth one point, so you would have to kill them all to earn points...but I havent seen the exact working, so if you know it for certain I would love to hear it

It certainly undermines that strategy certainly...if its true I think ill be dropping zoanthropes all together.

fazz wrote:I think its going to be CRITICAL to engage the enemy en masse, across a broader front than otherwise Tyranid players have been, so as to minimise how much combats are going to be won by. Im even now trying to do a "slow assault" wherein I minimise how many of my models can attack - minimising how much I win combat by. Ill inevitably destroy the unit Im fighting in THEIR turn, after we all move in, and it saves me from shooting, and creates a pure LOS block for my synapse.

Otherwise, it may be worth trying to get lesser gaunts into combat with more expensive units, so when the enemy does break, the gaunts consolidate forward and the better units backwards, so as the gaunts create a shield for 4+ coversaves if nothing else.

Watch out trying those tactics on Marines in the future, rumor has it they may choose to fallback from combat AT WILL, auto rallying where they stop. I agree that a large front OR a weak front will be the way to success in CC horde Nid tactics to come.

When I say 'weak front' I mean literally putting weak units out there to engage & be decimated. If they are cheap enough (rippers), fast enough & easy enough to defeat they could change the whole landscape of a front line by falling during the second round of assault.

Giving plenty of time for your major assault units to advance and get into position as well as possibly weakening the enemy just enough and moving their units around out of a self-supporting formation with consolodation.

We shall see.

fazz wrote:Are they? Im pretty sure its the selection is worth one point, so you would have to kill them all to earn points...but I havent seen the exact working, so if you know it for certain I would love to hear it

It certainly undermines that strategy certainly...if its true I think ill be dropping zoanthropes all together.

I also believe that Kill Points are UNIT based, not model based unless the model itself counts as an individual unit. Zoanthropes may act independently but ALL models in a unit still only comprise a single unit, thus 1KP. AFAIK

Yeah those marine rumours, couple with combat squads + ATSKNF is very scary for a nid horde player.

Single models that are a unit in their own is 1 KP, its not a FOC choice for KP so Zoanthropes = 1 KP each. Making them maybe a little less worth.

HQ with retinue is only 1KP too, making tyrant + guard really gain in worth.

A Zoanthrope is not a unit if three are placed.

0-1 and opperates independent means 3 scattered needs 3 dead to drop utility.

The 3 Zoanthropes are one unit even if they do not need coherency. They are not fielded 1 per FOC - unless only one is fielded. Cheers.



shrug

FWIW you should note that Zoanthropes will not get cover saves from anything but MC or Warriors. You can trace LOS from eye to torso straight over all the troop models.

Who's up for running sporemines? Come on, you know you want to do it. I run...BOOM!

Ran into Biovores for the first time in a long time just the other day...it was...interesting. lol

Couldn't really draw fire with spore mines anyway, part of why target priority is going away.

Anyway I think big crushing melee bugs is going to make a comeback. They aren't as efficient in mathhammer as say a devourer fex might be, but when they are running across the battlefield at you with 100+ gaunts and some stealers...man, making your own target priority checks is difficult. (That means you deciding what to shoot, and doing it correctly, every time.)

Oh, and I think marines will be scary because they've sucked for a decade. It's about time syndrome? lol

Where do you find that they are one unit?

You should check the rulebook for individual units consisting of single models.

Isn't the codex clear on this?

Bought separate, deploy and act separate...only thing is you get 3 for the cost of 1 FOC slot.

From the book...

Brood: You may include between 1 and 3 Zoanthropes as a single Heavy Support choice, but only one choice may be made per army. Thus you can have a maximum of three in an army. Zoanthropes are deployed as a single unit, but do not need to be placed together and operate independently during the game.

What about MC's not getting to shoot more than one weapon? Was that just a dumb rumor or not?

I love spore mines!

Dumb rumor. MCs may shoot two weapons.

Here's a change:

They're even worse against Orks

Moo-ha-ha-ha

Running spore mines sound very interesting...though I guess I have to wait for an FAQ before trying it...

Running Spore Mine! Where do I sign up?

Stelek wrote:FWIW you should note that Zoanthropes will not get cover saves from anything but MC or Warriors. You can trace LOS from eye to torso straight over all the troop models.l

Interestingly, if one is lucky enough to have old 2nd ed Zoanthropes they can probably screen them with just about anything.

Wouldnt screening your zoeys also give the opponant a 4+ cover save because you're shooting through your own troops? I would just stick them in a forest.

Hmm...interesting thought. I'll have to compare.

And come to think of it, my 2nd ed. Tyrant is *definitely* a lot smaller. It'd be much easier to hide behind a hill. Old school Tyranids FTW!

Shuma -- you could likely draw clear LOS as long as the screening troops aren't too far out in front. The Zoey should see over them for the most part.