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Here is my quite unit breakdown:

Hive tyrant: Better with guard worse with wings. But keep in mind that if you are running the guard tyrant to maintain synapse and shoot a gun you wont be able to run. And it may get left behind.

Broodlord: Far better now that it has the ability to run. In 4th it was just too damn slow, and cost its bodyfguard their main advantage. No longer.

Warriors: Able to screen your MC's and able to be screened by many troops. Walking warriors just became much more viable, though shooting warriors as with the tyrant are going to have to be a trade off.

Lictors: Always dropping into dangerous terain (until hopefuly its faq'd) is horrible. But the changes to cover, preffered enemy, and the ability to run into deep cover after landing means that a well placed lictor assault can give an entire horde preffered enemy at just the right moment. When you are throwing 60+ hormy attacks down field preffered enemy could become amazing.

Gaunts: Horde gaunts just got a significant boost with running, not to mention they are the only troops choice that can capture objectives for a damn.

Hormys: Oddly unchanged since they already had fleet and a 12 inch assault meant that counter charges wont really do a tremendous ammount. Still a solid choice.

Rippers: Are basically unshootable with true LOS and anything in front of them. Running also helps to get them across the field in much quicker fashion.

Genestealers: Screening helps immensely as long as they are behind something that isnt slowing them down (hormys). The feeder tendrils are finally a viable upgrade.

Zoanthropes: Screening doesn't help them a tremendous ammount, but the new blast rules are a nice addition. And being a single model in a dispersed unit will make them quite difficult to bring down in KP missions. These are still a strong choice.

Carnifex: Gunfex is down a bit, mellee fex is up. Both are still quite viable, with the edge in my opinion still up in the air between the two.

Biovores: Will never hit anything, but spore mines dont always need to hit. And its not like they were good before.

Gargoyles: With everything else in the army speeding up gargoyles slow down. Though as the only thing that can now really cheaply screen the MC's they may see some novel use.

Raveners: Perhaps more than any other unit in the army the ravener took a nerf. KP's means units of one are no longer an option and with lessoned effect of rending and counter charges this unit may have seen the last of its glory days. It's just too damn expensive for what its capable of, and now it can't even grab objectives. Though in the very least running after DS may leave a unit of them alive around a corner to assault the next turn. Not much but that aspect is sightly improved.



In all I think a more balanced tyranid force has gained considerable weight over what it had, while the more focused armies like nid zilla have dropped minorly in effectiveness. Overall a plus for the army in my opinion.

Agree with you on most points, object to the ones below.

Gaunts: Horde gaunts just got a significant boost with running, not to mention they are the only troops choice that can capture objectives for a damn.

Umm, gaunts are fleet so get no boost from the run rule.

And I'd beg to differ that stealers aren't capable of taking objectives. Stealers do not need synapse to function so are better at using the new flank rule to grab an objective and won't run all the time when there's no synapse nearby.

Hormys: Oddly unchanged since they already had fleet and a 12 inch assault meant that counter charges wont really do a tremendous ammount. Still a solid choice.

First, no escalation is a decent boost, granted there's now a whoe other way to force them into reserves. Also, not understanding the counter charge statement. How does a 12" charge change anything in that regard?

I do think hormies have a place in the army now, with wounds caused mattering more then bodies in combat res, hormies have an advantage over gaunts now.

Rippers: Are basically unshootable with true LOS and anything in front of them. Running also helps to get them across the field in much quicker fashion.

First, I still think they will be shootable if screened by other Non-MC models but it is true they should always get a 4+ cover save. There will always be gaps and spaces through which you can see them. And if you are talking terrain I don't see how there's really any change there.

I think the changes to scoring though really put a hurt to them though. Those troop slots are going to be very valuable and every one should be filled by units that score.

And in reality gaunts fullfill the same roll as a ripper swarm plus can score. See no reason to take them unless synpase is sparse.

Genestealers: Screening helps immensely as long as they are behind something that isnt slowing them down (hormys). The feeder tendrils are finally a viable upgrade.

Agree except hormies and gaunst are just as fast until the charge AND scuttle can help get the gaunts up ahead if that is something you want.

Zoanthropes: Screening doesn't help them a tremendous ammount, but the new blast rules are a nice addition. And being a single model in a dispersed unit will make them quite difficult to bring down in KP missions. These are still a strong choice.

I will have to wait and see, cause my first thought was that each one would count as a KP. Hope I am wrong.

Gargoyles: With everything else in the army speeding up gargoyles slow down. Though as the only thing that can now really cheaply screen the MC's they may see some novel use.

Interesting idea with screening. However can't see how they can be considered slower unless you are comparing them to units which fullfill a different role and are still slower (tyrant, carni, rippers, etc).

With gargoyles, it is nice that the bio plasma can't be used against them to reduce attacks but I still see them as over priced, non-scoring termagants.

Raveners: Perhaps more than any other unit in the army the ravener took a nerf.

I agree here but there is one interesting caveat: 6 point deathspitter on a BS3 model. Could prove to be an interesting upgrade.

Umm, gaunts are fleet so get no boost from the run rule.

And I'd beg to differ that stealers aren't capable of taking objectives. Stealers do not need synapse to function so are better at using the new flank rule to grab an objective and won't run all the time when there's no synapse nearby.

You're right. I completly forgot that the basic gaunts already had fleet. Though I would still argue that using genestealers to capture is a waste of points. For every genestealer not killing MEQ's and sitting on an objective you could have 3-4 gaunts doing the same. And couldn't you simply have the gaunt squad lurk on the objective? Or does that remove scoring ability?

First, no escalation is a decent boost, granted there's now a whoe other way to force them into reserves. Also, not understanding the counter charge statement. How does a 12" charge change anything in that regard?

No escalation helps but how often did you see that compared to the new method of keeping them off the table? I think it's too much of a tradeoff to be a huge boost. And as for the countercharge statement, generally you don't barely touch the enemy with that 12" charge. You hit them with a fair number of gaunts and cover a large flank of whatever you are charging. So allowing them to move in response isn't a tremendous issue like it is for lictors or raveners.

First, I still think they will be shootable if screened by other Non-MC models but it is true they should always get a 4+ cover save. There will always be gaps and spaces through which you can see them. And if you are talking terrain I don't see how there's really any change there.

With true line of sight things like small hills or ruins with little walls that used to be area terrain now actually block line of sight as long as you cant see any of the unit. A one inch stone wall blocks every ripper from harm. Combined with near perma 4+ inv or cover and shooting that low cost high wound unit just doesn't seem like an attractive option any more. I field around 25-30 rippers in my army and I've done a few fifth games and in general they seem to have gotten a pretty good boost to their effectiveness. Though in reality you're right and I do have to make every scoring model count since they can not.

Agree except hormies and gaunst are just as fast until the charge AND scuttle can help get the gaunts up ahead if that is something you want.

True, but I wouldnt want to tie the genestealers behind a large termy squad on the off chance that an opponants charge could cause that big wound wall to become impassable terrain that the stealers would have to walk around.

Interesting idea with screening. However can't see how they can be considered slower unless you are comparing them to units which fullfill a different role and are still slower (tyrant, carni, rippers, etc).

Well running warriors/tyrants/carnies/rippers do tend to put the advance at a slightly faster pace, though honestly im basing my experiences from my own army which are walking tyrant and ripper heavy. Gargoyles just dont get as far ahead as they used too, and using them to engage heavy weapons squads to avoid lascanon fire at the MC's isn't quite as important as it once was now that cover has improved and MC's can run from cover to cover if need be. Gargoyles didn't get worse, but where fifth helped a lot of units they didn't really get better either.

I agree here but there is one interesting caveat: 6 point deathspitter on a BS3 model. Could prove to be an interesting upgrade.

I've always used the deathspitters on them. They are pretty good in fifth against non MEQ's but they don't really do much since if you aren't in combat with the raveners and you have line of sight you're probably about to lose the unit. Shooting a deathspitter means a bolter can shoot back.

Lurking Tyranids cannot score.

kirsanth wrote:Lurking Tyranids cannot score.

Probably have to keep a zoey or gunwarrior nearby to them then. Or a gun tyrant. Though that is a bit more setup than a single genestealer so both tactics are probably viable in their own ways.

I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

Yes i agree to a point. Although you need to hold atleast one objective with troops or you are simply playing to a draw (which may or may not be deicded via VPs). Having one gaunt unit go to ground with some synapse while the rest of the horde go and play is certainly an option.

Though I would still argue that using genestealers to capture is a waste of points. For every genestealer not killing MEQ's and sitting on an objective you could have 3-4 gaunts doing the same.

Kicking the crap outta the enemy and scoring an objective doesn't have to be mutually exclusive either. There should be objectives near where you are kicking butt, so at the very least you'll be contesting them. Attrition will certainly cause issues with scoring but having one model be able to score helps minimize the affect.

And couldn't you simply have the gaunt squad lurk on the objective?

No but you can go to ground. Have some synapse unit do the same and you have a fairly resistant objective holder if good cover is available (3+ cover save). If that synapse can provide counter charge, all the better.

The key in my opinion will be placing objectives and having units such that you can wipe out the scoring units and still hold atleast one objective with a minimum of force.

gorgon wrote:I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

This is much more fluffy and will work to win the game... look at Tyranids as always attempting to force a VP (KP) count or draw instead of trying to tactically wrest or control objectives.

Sweep over anything that jumps on an objective and push back the rest of the army... carpet them with gnashing death and crazy pinning templates, just like in the fluff... wash over them like a tide of bodies now, get the biomass later.

Sounds like a LOT of fun!

anyone know the new MC rules, i herd that MC's can no longer fire multiple ranged weps equiped at the same time.
I will be very sad if this is true, my tyrant has a venomcannon and a barbed strangler he puts to good use.

Rockit wrote:

gorgon wrote:I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

This is much more fluffy and will work to win the game... look at Tyranids as always attempting to force a VP (KP) count or draw instead of trying to tactically wrest or control objectives.

Sweep over anything that jumps on an objective and push back the rest of the army... carpet them with gnashing death and crazy pinning templates, just like in the fluff... wash over them like a tide of bodies now, get the biomass later.

Sounds like a LOT of fun!

Yea.
We are not known for losing mulitple units at a time to accomplish a goal.


errr. . . Wait!

epil wrote:anyone know the new MC rules, i herd that MC's can no longer fire multiple ranged weps equiped at the same time.
I will be very sad if this is true, my tyrant has a venomcannon and a barbed strangler he puts to good use.

If i remember right they can move and fire two. Wheras regular walkers can move and fire one.

ShumaGorath wrote:

epil wrote:anyone know the new MC rules, i herd that MC's can no longer fire multiple ranged weps equiped at the same time.
I will be very sad if this is true, my tyrant has a venomcannon and a barbed strangler he puts to good use.

If i remember right they can move and fire two. Wheras regular walkers can move and fire one.

In fifth edition, MCs can move and fire up to two weapons, as you said. However, walkers can move and fire all weapons, making Dreadnoughts and Warwalkers a little more mobile in terms of firepower than regular vehicles.

From the sounds of things after reading all 3 pages of posts, Tyranids as a whole are looking to be less effective at what we were originally designed to do. CC was our thing and getting their was a bit tougher. That was the reason the Gun toating 'Fexs were designed. To handle the big boys with wheels and hold them off till our littler and more nastier bugs could get in close and shred them up.

Now with running it allows us to get into CC faster with certain units that just took forever to do it or might've originally been left behind. However, like its been said this is a blessing and a curse rolled into one. It makes more CC oriented Fexs more capable and able to get across the board but then you lose some of your big guns. And making a hybrid shooter/CC fex you lose the shot to close the distance or you fall behind the rest of the army and negate the need of your CC weapons (Scything Talons, Crushing Claws).

Also Zoey's seem to be getting easier to pop. If we can't screen them behind our normal troops then whats the point of taking of them at all? I mean that leaves the only reason to bring them is to pop a Monolith. Otherwise you just Fex's to stun a tank till your CC fex can run up and slash, slash through his armor with 4-5 Str 10 attacks.

This is just my opinion but it seems like a winning Tyranids army for 5th is going to consist of Tyrant w/ Gaurd, Warriors (filling in 1 HQ slot, and 2-3 Elite slots), a Lictor if you want a little variety in your Elites, 2 Genestealer broods, 4 Squads of some mix of Homraguants and/or Termaguants, and Winged Warriors as Fast Attack Choices (if you want them), and then 2-3 Fex's with shooty and CC in mind, 1 unit of Zoey's if you're facing a Necron army and would rather shoot the tank instead of running up on it. This is just in the mindset of a game thats not pushing up and using Forge Models like the Trygon or something along those lines. As I don't normally see to many of those in 1000-1500 pt games, but I'm sure they are by some players. I normally see those in the Apocalypse size games and for good reason they're quite expensive to field.

What I'm looking at now is making a swarm army that just overwhelms my enemy. Taking objectives looks to be to much hassel and a real downfall to the new rules for our Army as whole. Because if you spilt us up we're not as strong. We get weaker and easier to pick off. Perhaps GW's idea or intent with 5th edition and Tyranids was to make our play style more "fluff" based. I mean if you look at any of the artwork for Tyranids you don't normally see 6 huge walking Fex's with like 3 Gene broods walking in between them. Its wave after wave of teeth and claws gnawing at the enemy and making every concerted effort to close the gap and eat them up in close combat. Sure we have the ranged weapons but we're very much a CC oriented army and from the looks or it thats the direction we're being taken unless we just want to see our "cool" units eaten alive while they try and needlessly kill themselves in the roles they were designed for.

Granted take this with a grain of salt I haven't had a chance to read the 5th edition rule book yet, but from the new rules that I've seen and read on here this is the direction that I percieve is going to be the best way to have a surviving chance on the board now. Just my thoughts.

For the points taken up I believe that zoanthropes are still quite effective. Three of them with nothing but warp blast is 6 T4 2+/6+ wounds throwing out three warp blasts a turn. Thats about the same points value as a medium to high value ranged carnifex. Keep them near anything with synapse (or give them synapse) and they become a daunting target in kill points missions and provide the now much needed extra ranged power against high armor vehicles. The venom canon just wont cut it now that it can't actually kill anything.

I think the Venom Cannon still has its place. It's not so much destroying vehicles but keeping them from shooting so your bugs can get close to them. The VC was always glancing against Landraiders/Monoliths in the first place. Plus a Gunfex can still pack a lot of hurt.

Or maybe I'm just saying that because my carnifex is the only thing I have shooting in my planned army

Thanks guys - interesting opinions and discussion, it'll be a blast to finally get to try it out in practice soon

Sadly, nidzilla still seems very viable in 5th. Out go the genestealers, in come 50 or so without number gaunts (more in >1500 games). Even better, Tau, the bane of nidzilla, get a real kicking in 5th.

I'm undecided how to play horde nids, but a core of say 30 supergaunts backed up by 2 large mobs of without number shootagaunts looks a pretty solid foundation. I use a similar build currently, and it is lethal when it gets its fleet on, so I don't see any reason for it to get any worse now I can force the 4+ save on the hormies and happily commit shootagaunts to their deaths. Not really convinced by scouting genestealers in this list at 1500, but once you are over 1700 there is maybe a place for them as the 6by4 becomes increasingly crammed.

I posted a list I am building towards - any comments would be welcome.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/214297.page

Without numbers is pretty pointless most of the time, since you for that point cost would get another mob.

Kallbrand wrote:Without numbers is pretty pointless most of the time, since you for that point cost would get another mob.

Sure, but without numbers can actually give you 8 broods for the cost of two, and still guarantee one of those is whole and scoring (and moves 6+d6 towards an objective that you should have placed near your lines) in a standard 5e game. Which is relevant more often than it is not - so as long as you mean "most of the time" to mean "most of the gameplay time", but not counting tthe small portion of time spent calculating who WON the game. They score/contest to the last gaunt - people cannot just knock them to half and ignore anymore! In all fairness, I have only seen the rule get me up 4 broods, but almost 1/2 of my 5e wins now have been helped/caused by that rule alone.

But enough people disagree with me that I just enjoy the now. ^^

And Lictors are nicer than that. As I posted elsewhere, unless I am misreading (again), DS a Lictor into Impassable Terrain, and they are fine. Heck hard not to get 2+ save from that even.

Kallbrand wrote:Without numbers is pretty pointless most of the time, since you for that point cost would get another mob.

The ability to recycle a suicide troops unit into your back line in turns 3-4 is a huge advantage in 5th. Paying for extra broods dilutes your broods sizes, which gives up kill points. Large without number units allow you to play the gaunt broods to the mission you are undertaking.

For the point of your without number you get another almost as large brood of for example spinegaunts. Why would juh rather want 1 extra brood that comes in turn 3-4 (outside of synapse range most of the time) instead of one that is on the table turn 1? And that is ofc if pepole kills off all your gaunts, you might end up not getting anything for the points.

20 spinegaunts for 160 points (with it) or 20+12 for the same, for me its an easy choice.

The 2nd brood doesn't use up a FoC slot though. Nids are easily able to use up all their troops slots (I know mine does)

Kallbrand wrote:For the point of your without number you get another almost as large brood of for example spinegaunts. Why would juh rather want 1 extra brood that comes in turn 3-4 (outside of synapse range most of the time) instead of one that is on the table turn 1? And that is ofc if pepole kills off all your gaunts, you might end up not getting anything for the points.

20 spinegaunts for 160 points (with it) or 20+12 for the same, for me its an easy choice.

Pretty sure this was actually covered, but let us recap.

Because outside of synapse, last turn they can score without a LD5 test, ONLY if they just appeared.
Because outside of synapse, other than last turn they move faster towards your synapse (which better be where you want your gaunts or you deserve what you get) than any other way to move.
Because it can be up to 6 units in one FoC slot, every turn - not just 1 extra brood.
Because if they are on the table turn 1 they can die turn one.
Because if you can take objectives with your gaunts (remember they are troops), then no matter how many died it rarely matters.
Because when your opponent kills every troop choice on the table, it is still possible to win the game on your next turn.
Because troops score to the last model - opponents WILL kill them even when they know they are without number or you will get to the other side of the table, like pawns in chess.

Because I want to come back to my later I shall wait to finish this.

Kallbrand wrote: Why would juh rather want 1 extra brood that comes in turn 3-4 (outside of synapse range most of the time) instead of one that is on the table turn 1?

Because I understand the 5th edition rules set and you don't?

Under the current rules you would never pay points for WN. Two 5th build percepts are troop scoring redundancy and minimal FOC slots (to paraphrase, low KP opportunities). There must be as many possible scoring possibilities in turn 5 as possible, without falling into the trap of giving up easy kill points. The WN option builds a bridge between these two percepts.

Under objective missions a 25 strong WN brood can provide the vital screen for the vulnerable CC gaunts before being recycled to your back line to score. In the KP missions a 25 strong brood is very difficult to shift. Consider the commitment that must be made to remove it and vulnerability of anything that tries.

Bear in mind also, that you will have synapse in the back line anyway. You have to hold your table edge objective counter in one mission, and the objective counters will likely be close by in another. So if you haven't included the requirement to control your deployment area in your army build, well then you're probably doomed before you even start rolling the dice.

Yeah I've had to change my tune on WN and see it as defintely worthwhile in 5ed. I'd add that having one model in a unit score/contest is a huge part of why WN is viable.

Under old rules, you could just ignore the WN unit when it was below 50%. Forced the Nid player to try and kill off the unit or other such nonsense. Now the unit must be killed to a man in order to remove it from scoring or contesting.

Because I understand the 5th edition rules set and you don't?

You are funny. You understand it and claims the WN is that good. At least it made me laugh but it seems your the one with no clue. Lets go by it step by step.

Under the current rules you would never pay points for WN. Two 5th build percepts are troop scoring redundancy and minimal FOC slots (to paraphrase, low KP opportunities). There must be as many possible scoring possibilities in turn 5 as possible, without falling into the trap of giving up easy kill points. The WN option builds a bridge between these two percepts.

*Why do you need as many scoring possiblites as possible? There is only one scenario with more then 2 objectives and during the only KPs you will actually have the chance to give up even more KPs by taking it. You dont expekt your gaunts to be bringing in many KPs at least, I hope.

Under objective missions a 25 strong WN brood can provide the vital screen for the vulnerable CC gaunts before being recycled to your back line to score. In the KP missions a 25 strong brood is very difficult to shift. Consider the commitment that must be made to remove it and vulnerability of anything that tries.

*A 25 stong brood that you manage to get out of synpase by killing whatever brings it to them is quite easy to kill, with new template rules and new CC. Getting 2x20 for the same cost is harder to shift then a single 25, that should be obvious. Unless you are ofc already spamming your troops choices to the max and wants more, but isnt the 6 you can get enough for you? All the fexxes uses up quite alot of points and doesnt really leave that much for troops.

Bear in mind also, that you will have synapse in the back line anyway. You have to hold your table edge objective counter in one mission, and the objective counters will likely be close by in another. So if you haven't included the requirement to control your deployment area in your army build, well then you're probably doomed before you even start rolling the dice.

*This one is the best. If you already have synpase and a brood controlling your table edge objective, what do you need the recylced one for?

Im not claiming it is usless, but its uses are pretty limited still.

As for all of the opinions, I'm so frustrated about what is the BEST upgrade for genestealers?

Carapace?

Or Scuttler??

BTW, what is that mean of 'Free Move' for scout rule?

please answer it everyone.

I'm gonna go with none of the above and say "Feeder Tendrils".

Then "Carapace".

Is Feeder tendrils, Carapace and Scuttlers over egging the pudding a bit?

I am looking at running a couple of units of 'stealers with scuttling as "jaws" for my army, not sure whether to go with carapace + tendrils or drop tendrils and buy an extra stealer or two...