[PP] price increase and plastics

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**Duncan_Idaho**

So much for: "Warmachine and Hordes will never go plastics."

Consumers of metal miniatures have noticed that the price of non-ferrous metals has experienced a sharp upward trend over the last few years. At Privateer Press, we diligently monitor the cost of the metal and price our new products appropriately based on current rates. Unfortunately, the cost of metal has skyrocketed over the past couple years. As well, rising gas prices have dramatically increased shipping costs, the repercussions of which can be seen everywhere with the general inflation that affects all of us.

As a result, we are in a position where we must increase the prices of older models in order to keep them profitable. We continue to do everything we can to combat raising prices, from purchasing more efficient equipment, buying metal in bulk, and training our staff in an effort to create a more efficient production process. You’ll be seeing some amazing and innovative ways that we’re engineering the models in the future to decrease metal usage. While these measures have mitigated the increased price of metal and have allowed us to stave off adjusting prices for a while, these efforts are unable to completely neutralize rising costs.

In order to continue the production of certain items, we must adjust their MSRP to reflect the material’s current price, which constitutes the largest portion of their manufacturing cost. The graph below comes from the London Metal Exchange, displaying the rise in tin prices since January of 2003 when we first started manufacturing. (http://www.lme.co.uk/) At the time of our last price adjustment on January 1, 2007, the price of tin was about $7.00 per pound. The current cost is approximately $11.00 per pound, an almost 50% increase in under 18 months.

We are as loathe to adjusting these prices just as you, the consumer, are to see it happen. We are currently exploring a variety of other manufacturing methods that we hope will lead towards a savings on the cost of manufacturing and the ability to stabilize prices. This includes alternative metals as well as plastic components for the model kits. In any event, commitment to quality remains our primary consideration so that no matter what material we use to manufacture, Privateer Press will continue to deliver the highest quality miniatures to you.
Effective July 1st, a significant number of the models found in the WARMACHINE and HORDES product ranges will receive an increase to their MSRP. The complete list, along with their new prices, is available here.

Quelle: http://privateerpress.com

new prices:

http://privateerpress.com/docs/Product_Line_MSRP_Increase.xls

**AgeOfEgos**

Looks like most things went up 3-5$. This could be a pretty bad sign for PP if they lack the cash to switch their molds over to plastic. I'm not up on molding processes but I do recall GW stating how expensive molding plastics is (and by their progression over the years, it's obviously a learned talent as well). Could be why they are only doing parts of their model in plastic. Also, didn't they just raise prices last year?

With the increase in points, crazy Hordes pricing, increase in price (and no end in sight for metal prices), PPs bubble might have finally popped. The next 12 months will be interesting.

/To sum up the rest of the thread;

"PPs looking more like GW everyday..."
"Well at least they are honest!"
"What difference does it make to your wallet?"
"It's less expensive to get into!"
"Actually its the same anymore, if not a tad bit more"
"Full metal....more like Full metal (With some plastic) Fantasy!"

**Anung Un Rama**

I don't care if trenchers and longgunners become plastic.

Altough it could get ruff for PP in the next few months.

And Full Metal Fantasy actually comes from the roleplaying game, since they didn't want to use the word steampunk.

**Duncan_Idaho**

Molds for plastic are somwhere between 10.000 and 250.000 Dollar, depending on how many sprues you need to produce and how big they are. In these prices replacement molds are already included. The steal molds are nearly indestructable if one does not have five thumbs on every hand, only problem ist the perfect fit of the two halves of the molds.

**Dragonforge**

I think this is just the beginning of the price increases we are going to see here soon hobby wide. The price of Tin (Pewter) continues to rise..its now over $12.00 a pound and climbing. Thats up over $5.00 a pound in just the last year and prices on raw plastics and resin is jumping too because they are made from oil. Add to it the high costs of transportation too.

I cast a lot in resin, and in the last year Ive seen my prices rise almost 30% in materials and shipping.

if your curious why the price of tin is skyrocketing its a couple things. One its only mined in a couple countries in the world and they are constantly in conflict. Also every electronic gadget you buy cheaply made in China uses tin based solder to assemble it. So all those cell phones, ipods, video games, HD TV's, DVD players hand held GPS and so on..is eating up supplies...

**stormtitan**

Meh, not a big deal that they produce in plastic. That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard for playing/not playing a game, anyway. Who cares how the models are made? I certainly don't.

**syr8766**

After having converted, replaced components, pinned, GSed, etc. on dozens of PP figs, I will gladly welcome plastic components instead of all metal. Likewise, if they go back and recut/resculpt some earlier, less detailed figs, that'd be fine too.

As to the cost of metal, Wargames Factory, Warlord and Perry Bros. are starting to look awfully prescient, especially the Wargames Factory, who uses recycled material...

**Duncan_Idaho**

You forgot Rackham

.

@Dragonforge
Check TGN, it´s already in full swing.

@stormtitan
Well, some people have a problem with them switching to plastics, cause in the past they were quite adamant on going never ever plastic.

For them it´s now one rebel company less. But you can only be a rebel as long as it pays your bills...

**JohnHwangDD**

Heh. OK, PP apologists, tell us again how PP are the "good guys"...

**jah-joshua**

hey hwang...
sounds like you're just tryin' to pick a fight...i don't see any apologists in this thread, just some cats layin' down the facts...i don't even see anyone sayin' that PP are the "good guys"...they are a business...
i do know for a fact that they send ron kruzie over to china to get the best deal possible on tin, direct from the source...prices are on the rise in all aspects of the global economy, as dragonforge attests to...
at least PP is all about supportin' the LGS, instead of makin' life hard for 'em like GW...

don't get me wrong, i'm a mercenary painter, so i can't comment on how people feel about a switch to plastic, and i don't think that anyone who is in business to make a livin' can be considered alturistic...some people choke when i quote the price for my paintin', but i never have a complaint with the finished product...i used to cut friends deals, and ended up feelin' like i was gettin' ripped off...

people who continue to spend money on minis are obviously just happy that we have more new minis comin' out that make us want to collect 'em...no matter who the company is, they have to live with the realities of economics...croc has had to raise there prices a couple times in the last few years...GW does it on a regular basis...it's goin' on across the industry...

at least with U.S. based companies like PP, reaper, and croc, a price rise is a rare thing...look at the small european companies like infinity, enigma, tale of war, avatars of war, and others...their prices go up weekly thanks to the euro...

the reality of economics sucks...

cheers
jah

**Aduro**

I like plastic alot better myself, so much easier to work with. It suck they're raising prices, but who isn't now days?

**Da Boss**

Cats layin' down some facts?
Best.Thread.Ever.

**Alpharius**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:You forgot Rackham .

That's actually not that hard to do...

**Plastic Parody**

Sounds like the company they [PP] love to slag off is in a far better position.

Yeh, thats right - the bad guy idiot company that we all love to slag off too may just have seen this coming?

**His Master's Voice**

Alpharius wrote:
Duncan_Idaho wrote:You forgot Rackham .

That's actually not that hard to do...

BOOM!!!! Headshot!

**ShumaGorath**

Obvious and fortold price increases due to vastly increased demand for the base materials involved? Impossible! Not sure what took them so long to realise they were on an upward price curve, someone should have been paying better attention.

**JohnHwangDD**

jah-joshua wrote:hey hwang...
sounds like you're just tryin' to pick a fight...i don't see any apologists in this thread,

the reality of economics sucks...

Hey jah...

I'm just glad to see the shoe on the other foot.

And yeah, reality is a harsh mistress!

**George Spiggott**

Battlefront's Flames of War game has recently begun to swap out metal parts for plastic with no loss of quality (AFAIK). Obviously raised prices are bad but I've yet to see how much GBP prices will rise by. I hope the weak USD absorbs most of the price increase (time will tell).

The price argument has been done over and over with GW product and from that came the only point that matters: "Is the end product worth what I pay for it?" Value, not cost determines whether purchases are made (in all but the most extreme cases). Good value will depend upon the products and what the final prices will be. I don't think PP will be releasing plastic winter guard anytime soon but I think we may see plastic chassis for warjacks.

Having just endured a Flames of War price raise the answer for me was, 'sometimes'. Paying another pound for another tank is ok but paying another pound for already bad value transports isn't. As a result my planned armoured recon force just got put on hold, but my Panzergrenadiers gained a Brummbar platoon.

**malfred**

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heh. OK, PP apologists, tell us again how PP are the "good guys"...

Because we prefer the game. That's all. /shrug

So far it looks like they're saying plastic components. Whatever that means.

I don't care so long as they continue to keep the game around. Do what they
have to.

**DFo**

I'd like to echo the chorus approving the idea of plastics. Pinning everything gets old pretty fast, and from a pure modelling perspective (not considering the economies of molds, etc) who doesn't prefer working with plastic? The original Page 5 may have disparaged plastics, but that was the work of an unknown company trying anything they could think of to differentiate themselves and garner attention. Losing the rebel start-up attitude in one page of silly editorial doesn't affect the game at all.

Also, I've always found these cost-of-materials arguments a bit tenuous, whether from GW, PP, whoever. Tin has doubled in price to $12/lb? I don't think my entire 500 point army weighs a pound, and I'm paying $15 for a single heavy infantry model. I wouldn't be surprised if the transport costs were higher than the materials costs on a per-model basis. I wonder if PP will take the time to adjust Canadian MSRPs for a ~par dollar while they readjust for raw material inflation?

**H.B.M.C.**

jah-joshua wrote:hey hwang...
sounds like you're just tryin' to pick a fight...

That's what trolls do.

He also probably thinks that PP raising their prices someway justifies GW's prices.

That's the way things work in Reality-Hwang.

BYE

**Duncan_Idaho**

@DFo
It´s just funny, because they were so adamant on it until a few days ago. Unsurprisingly many working in the business knew of their switch already more than a before now. And, no, it was not just a comment from days past on an old Page 5. It was actually their Mantra and also that of their gamers. Whenever other companies turned plastics gamers of those games were ridiculed for playing with not so worthy plastics figs. So its just funny how now many turn a blind eye on their statements from just a few weeks ago and make excuses for PP, while last month they would have killed anynone who only hinted on plastics. Heck, I got quite some bashing when I talked about them going plastics half a year ago.

@George Spiggott
Try GHQ Micro Armour. They are 1/285, but they have more details and you get more for the buck. Some over here turn to playing FoW with Micro Armour, since you can also stage bigger battles much easier.

**Vaktathi**

As much as people are going to complain, I applaud PP for explaining and showing exactly why they feel they must raise prices and show the consumer a reason for it. I've never thought of PP as a low cost producer (many of their mini's cost more per model than GW ones) I'm glad to see they are at least honest and forthcoming about price changes.

**Thanatos73**

Prices go up, nothing surprising there. Everything is getting more expensive, and that includes the hobby I, and many others, enjoy. I may wish WM stuff was the same price as six years ago, but I also wish gas was the price it was six years ago. Life's expensive.

As to them switching to plastic, I say bring it on. I love converting stuff, and working with plastic is much easier. And after my last experience trying to pin epic Feora together, I miss plastic.

**Duncan_Idaho**

@Vaktahi
Funny, the last time GW told us the exact same reasons they were called liars. I am not a fan of GW, but PP is not an yota better.

Examples:

> We will never ever produce such expensive supplement products that an other company produces > Bang, we have P3 Products and some of them even more expensive than from GW.

> We will never ever produce any products that are made of platics or have to do with CMG > Bang, we have Monsterpocalypse

> We will never ever introduce plastics into our main line. Bang, we have the above statement.

It´s not so much that they change their mind, it´s more that if you calculate in how long it takes to switch in the above cases you will find out that even when they were adamant about it they were already preparing the opposite. And such a behavour leaves a really bad taste in the mouth. With GW you at least know what to expect.

And even mor funny when Rackham said that for the forseable future they were not planning to go to plastics and then changed course after 2 years (it takes 1-2 years to switch normally) they got a hell of a beating.

**George Spiggott**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:And even mor funny when Rackham said that for the forseable future they were not planning to go to plastics and then changed course after 2 years (it takes 1-2 years to switch normally) they got a hell of a beating.

Thats not why Rackham took a beating, and you know it.

BTW: Thanks for the micro armour tip. If I was going totake thet route I'd probably play Epic with them.

**Wolfstan**

Hmmm... reading through all of this makes me wonder in the hoddy needs a union of some sorts, or a major share holder type company of sorts. Ok, not going crazy, let me explain. You have the likes of Walmart, Tesco, Asda, etc who can go to a supplier and say that we will only pay "x" amount for your product due to the fact we buy "xx" amount of your stock. This allows them to control pricing. So (I know it's probably an idealistic idea) if gamers could be brought together under a "union" for want of a better word, couldn't this help us?

This group could become a spokes person for gamers, they could meet the main players and set out the type of standards we expect from them. Obviously they are in business to make money, so certain increases could be allowed, but each change is looked at on an individual basis. Each change is then put to the vote, with a committee recommendation attached to it. So if company makes some kind of change that is felt is not in the gamers interest, and is voted against, then some kind of action is taken. This could be refusing to purchase certain models / rules, not taking part in organised events or even refusing to purchase anything from the said supplier.

I know the idea is a somewaht simplistic / idealistic approach, but as it stands due to us being individuals we have no say over what happens to our hobby, and lets be clear about this, it is our hobby. If it wasn't for our passion for gaming, who would they sell to? How many other hobbies do you know where you'd build 3 or 4 different armies for the same system, each costing over £200 each? Then on top of that the fact that most of us play other systems and have the same collecting obsession with them. And lets not forget the fact we all have unbuilt models on our shelves, that we bought because we likes the look of them or that we liked the nice glossy full colour rulesbook, but we've never played them.

So as I said, we have a large invested interest in this hobby, which I feel gives us the right to be heard and listened to.

**NAVARRO**

I dont get the direction of this thread...

Is it about PP being the devil like all others except the poor rackham?

I do get the feeling you get some kind of pleasure from this duncan... i dont, for me is always bad news when something gets more expensive or a business model i like goes bad and has to switch to something else li dont like.

Bottom line you are surprised with people not slagging and kissing PP feet even facing this news? Well then take a good look at your identical reaction towards Rackham and you will have your answers.

I think PP warjacks can really benefict from plastics since those kits are quite flat and not with intricate details like say, human sized minis... Since PP minis are sometimes wonderfull and sometimes ugly i espect the same with the plastics... but if they for some reason choose to go Prepainted route well then they loose my money.

**His Master's Voice**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Try GHQ Micro Armour.

Oh yes, do try, and you'll never, ever go back to any other manufacturer. I bought some Abrams just for the great detail and I'm buying me some Tigers for Flames of War.

**kitsandbits**

I think metal has had its day , Resin and plastic is the way forward, looking at the recent deamons and vampire count plastics shows that plastic detail can now be better than white metal for standard infantry and resin would work just as well for hero models or hybrid models.
I know that making steel molds costs alot (or so its claimed) but the cost of the materials and the fact that the machine is automated and just pumps out thousands of units in a day counter acts the set up cost.
Molding metal requires a mold , heating up metal to metling point and some one to pour it into a mold and spin it and then they have to wait for the metal to cool before the mold can be used again, its a slow process that uses alot of man hours .

big question is can PP afford to do plastics ? or will they just keep bumping the price up till they go under