Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@Navarro
Rackham was just an example, the same goes for GW. It was just the funny thing about every other company being slammed by players of Warmachine/Hordes for chaning but as soon as PP does it it seems the right thing to do. It just amuses me how folks suddenly change their mind. I can understand people being true to their colors, but then don´t spit on others for doing exactly the same, only a few months or years earlier.

@HMV
Yep, got me the Kriegsmariene and Imperial Japanese Navy for Victory at Sea from GHQ and never want to go back to another company. The details are overwhelming. Actually the GHQ-tanks and trucks have double the detail of the FoW ones. I do have a Tiger from FoW and one from GHQ and I am still surprised how they can be that much better.

I just dont see the point of trying to prove PP is like anyother mini company.
As for the examples you provided you surelly know there were lots of diferent issues, so all of them have a diferent context and history.
Here on boards i think the general feeling is that PP quality is a bit hit and miss so i believe people are used to that.

Plastics do have their place on PP products if you ask me, huge geometric flat surfaces will gain a lot... as they have on GW and even on Rackham ( my 3 abbyprimes kits are a proof of that)... but espect tons of mindless rant from me if they just embrace prepainted. As you said people are true to their colors and for me miniatures should always have Hobby/modelling/painting component atached.

I think the world is changing a lot to fast and i just hope the hobby aimed companies can survive these changes, when there is less disposable income the hobbies are the first to be obliterated from the agenda. And as for surviving the changes i mean keeping the core business and not switching to other areas that do not interest me.

News flash: plastic is made from petrolem products- no supply concerns there, huh?

I guess the next wave will be to come up with a miniture-making process that utilizes, say, a corn-based biopolymer.

We should just train, house, and feed our own armies.

It would be awesome.

fellblade wrote:News flash: plastic is made from petrolem products- no supply concerns there, huh?

I guess the next wave will be to come up with a miniture-making process that utilizes, say, a corn-based biopolymer.

Plastic can also be recycled, and as Wargames Factory has pointed out, they're using recycled plastic with no loss of detail or quality.

Obviously, metal can as well, and I imagine much of the tin used in minis was from recycled sources (no proof, but that's just how the metal market works), but with things so tight right now for the metals market, there may not be enough supply. Supply for plastics can be less of an issue if using recycled materials.

So recycle your old sprues and packages so we can make more figures!

malfred wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heh. OK, PP apologists, tell us again how PP are the "good guys"...

Because we prefer the game. That's all. /shrug

Well, at least you're honest, unlike the hypocrites and PP apologists.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

jah-joshua wrote:hey hwang...
sounds like you're just tryin' to pick a fight...

That's what trolls do.

He also probably thinks that PP raising their prices someway justifies GW's prices.

Calling someone else a troll? Let me clarify things for you... =holds up mirror=

There's no need for you to be putting thoughts in my head, thankyouverymuch - unlike certain individuals that I choose not to hame, I'm more than capable of putting two thoughts together on my very own. And if you've been paying any attention, you'd note that I'd been making the *opposite* argument: GW price rises have been used to justify everybody else's price rises.

NAVARRO wrote:I dont get the direction of this thread...

PP are just like every other business, except that their American-trained marketing is much better at making up and sugarcoating BS that gamers swallow with a smile. IOW, I perceive GW to be more honest and PP to be more hypocritical.

JohnHwangDD wrote: IOW, I perceive GW to be more honest and PP to be more hypocritical.

Come on John!

You don't really believe that, do you?

Personally, I don't think I could care less about PP marketing or the material they make their pieces out of. They're a company, i.e. they're looking to screw me out of my money, just like every other business. It saves time to treat them all as disreputable and untrustworthy bastards. Against that backdrop, none of their promises, values or perceived "niceness" is worth not even a brass farthing.

One thing to point out, Navarro... hobbies aren't the first to get cut out in hard times.

Cutting back on necessities that pinch the wallet, or finding substitutes for them is usually the first thing (see the massive increase in public transportation in the US today). Often, large ticket purchases or expenditures get pushed back (not new armies... we're talking about buying boats, overseas vacations, things like that).

Study after study have shown that entertainment expenditures go up during a recession/cooling off period (I use the "/" cause people haven't decided whether we're in a recession yet or not... I still argue we're not, but that's a different thread for a different forum for a different websitet). People going to movies, going to concerts, participating in their miscellaneous hobbies, these things get done more in a recession. We simply need more warm-glowy-feeling in the cockles of our hearts to counteract the doom and gloom from the news (which is almost always wrong).

Now, all that isn't to say PP, or GW, or whomever is or isn't justified in raising their prices. I'm just saying that the usual fluctuations of an economic cycle don't alter spending patterns in our hobby's area of the economy as drastically as people think. We are entertainment, not a luxury, from an economical descriptor point of view.

I see your point Deathgod and i agree its someting happening on fatter economies, here in Portugal and in many european countries with more fragile economic balances we have passed that already ... but now were so in trouble people dont have money for eating or paying houses etc... guess what happens to hobbies.
Also theres a huge emigration to more stable economies... Thing is, we do not have any disposable income.
Stronger richer countries can take the pokes of price rises and still maintain some kind of strategy but smaller economies get KO.

What bothers me the most is that everything is skyroketing price wise and theres no light at the end of the tunnel... no one can say that in one year time we dont see lots hobby companies go belly up if prices continue this tendencie.

Has anyone weighed Privateer Press's figures?

I don't have a scale that's accurate for small items like miniatures, so I'm just throwing this out there.

Privateer Press is claiming the majority of their manufacturing cost are from the metal.

Exactly how much do 6 long gunners in the box set weigh? How much does a Death Jack weigh?

And how does that compare to the current MSRP?

I just spent $11.99 on a dwarf solo. Certainly, there's a lot of profit in that price.

PatoX wrote:Has anyone weighed Privateer Press's figures?

I don't have a scale that's accurate for small items like miniatures, so I'm just throwing this out there.

Privateer Press is claiming the majority of their manufacturing cost are from the metal.

Exactly how much do 6 long gunners in the box set weigh? How much does a Death Jack weigh?

And how does that compare to the current MSRP?

I just spent $11.99 on a dwarf solo. Certainly, there's a lot of profit in that price.

You're missing alot between the buy-the-raw-materials stage and the open-your-shiny-new-gobbins stage. And some of the things that happen BEFORE buying the raw materials. Sculptors need to get paid, people working at the molding plant need to get paid, and metal molding is VERY VERY VERY labor intensive (not that watching a mold spin is difficult per se, but it takes alot of man hours in comparison to other mediums). Packaging, shipping, etc, etc, etc.

It takes some reading between the lines, and some understanding of economic models, but the rise in tin prices isn't the cause of the price increase, but rather the impetus of said increase. In laymans terms, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Sure, PP could endure the price increase in its packaging (almost all plastic - oil based product). Sure, PP could endure the increase in shipping prices due to the rise in gasoline prices. Sure, PP could endure the increase in the cost of wages (assuming they have made an adjustment for cost of living... who knows, but one can hope). Sure they could endure the increase int he cost of tin. But endure them all together? That's a different story.

The cost of tin going simply marks the point where PP execs say, "Eff it, time to raise prices and stay profitable."

Just an interpretation based on information at hand, but it's a pretty solid one.

One of the reasons I got into WM was the fact that the models WERE metal... Now, if they were to say produce a Cygnar Defender in classic Cygnar colors right out of the box, I could definatly see advantages in Plastic. I know that the vast majority of the forum members do their own paint, etc, but there is nothing wrong with buying say a few sets of LGs or Trenchers that are already in Cygnar colors.

Another thought for PP would be to keep making Warcasters in metal, and make the rest of the models in plastic... kinda reinforces the fact of the level of importance a caster is to the game.

And honestly, it's cool that the Ironclad is all metal, and is more than heavy enough for a good paperweight, but it would in some ways be equally nice if it weight a few grams, versus a few ounces...

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that a plastic GW SM Dreadnaught doesn't have nearly the satisfying heft that a metal one does, but to me the plastic more than makes up for it in conversion potential.

I've seen some WM and Hordes conversions, but not nearly as many as I see for GW games. Going plastic could spawn a whole lot of creativity for PP players.

Problem with conversions and PP is there are no options for models. Can I choose to, say, model a Defender with 2 heavy barrels? Sure. Does it mean anything? Not a lick.

Hell, I "converted" my Centurion to be looking over his right arm, searching for a target, but ho-hum. Thats a reposition, not a conversion.

I play WM, and I'm starting to like it quite a bit...it's a very different game than 40k. But as far as hobbying goes, its a snooze. No counts-as, no options in my modeling other than "Do I want my left arm close to my body, or my right?" So yeah, plastic is easier to work with, I have yet to see a PP model that would lose quality going from metal to plastic, but the idea that conversion would become viable just isn't supported by the game.

In order to continue the production of certain items, we must adjust their MSRP to reflect the material’s current price, which constitutes the largest portion of their manufacturing cost.

Another advantage for plastic, at least to me, is that I'm sure it's FAR easier to find an adhesive that works on plastic vs. metal...

It's strange PP chose the "raw material" explanation, no matter how lame and irrelevant when you know the cost of materials of miniatures, over the simple *success* route.

Success? Indeed. Lead vs plastic is a pointless discussion (from a manufacturer point of view) because the only relevant argument is the volume of miniatures produced.

If you are going to cast thousands, you are better off casting in plastics. Simply because molds last way longer, even if their price is higher.

I'd have appreciated PP to write that lead molds have worn out and the number of WM players is now so high that they have to redo their product line in plastics, instead of this lame GW-like statement.

DeathGod wrote: So yeah, plastic is easier to work with, I have yet to see a PP model that would lose quality going from metal to plastic, but the idea that conversion would become viable just isn't supported by the game.

I always forget that about the game. I mean, I'm always aware of
it, but I always forget to point that out to people. To me, it's been an
advantage as I like having the models balanced against a single build
and units improved with attachments. I'm staring at my unfinished
Dreadnought when I say I hate not assembling a model because
I'm unsure how I want it armed (quite literally in this case). The "best"
solution is magnetizing options, but I don't like doing that.

Cygnar Runner wrote:Another advantage for plastic, at least to me, is that I'm sure it's FAR easier to find an adhesive that works on plastic vs. metal...

They've been quoted as saying something about plastic components,
not full scale plastic models, and to me that concept is far worse than
either all metal or all plastic.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heh. OK, PP apologists, tell us again how PP are the "good guys"...

PP method:

- Produce good rules with good fluff and keep the armies up to date
- Give justification from price rises, see direct link to metals exchange
- Increases price at a reasonable rate

GW method:

- Raise prices with no proven justification
- Increases price at an unreasonable rate, often in great steps
- Provides gakky rules when they feel like it

At least PP is honest and TELLs it's clients why prices are going up.

Raise prices with no proven justification

Do they have to tell you why they're rasing prices or justify doing so to you? The only people they need to justify rasing their prices to are their shareholders.

Increases price at an unreasonable rate, often in great steps

And who are any of us to determine what's an 'unreasonable rate'?

Ghaz wrote:

Increases price at an unreasonable rate, often in great steps

And who are any of us to determine what's an 'unreasonable rate'?

The people who buy things. Though price was less of a reason for me to
play more WM than it was the game. So I bought less 40k stuff (GW probably
could care less. There are dozens of kids to take my place) and bought
more PP stuff. I've said it before, I doubt GW notices it when casual players
quit their games.

Techboss wrote:
At least PP is honest and TELLs it's clients why prices are going up.

What they told you is an absolute lie. Again, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the price increase, at all. It's their business and their profits, they can do what they will with their prices.

That being said, any manufacturer of a static product (by which I mean one that doesn't get used while using it, like gasoline, for example) who tells you his raw materials cost more than his labor is either lieing to you or works with rediculously rare materials (ie diamonds and gold for jewelry). As tin is not rare, I'll let you draw the inevitable conlcusion. If they had sited the raising cost of tin, labor and shipping, that'd eb a different story, but claiming tin is such a massive part of the expense of production that its rising cost alone (in the numbers given) prohibits profitability. I'm sure its a factor, but the point they've made just isn't true.

The fact that they gave you an explanation doesn't make it true. The fact that their explanation is hot air up the skirt, to me, is worse than GW not giving a reason at all (which is irrelevant to anyone who understands economics, because we knew why GW was rasing prices when they did so).

EDIT: I forgot a factor that might indeed make PP's highest manufacturing cost its raw materials - waste. In every manufacturing business, there will inevitably be waste of raw materials. Fall off lumber, excessive flash for molds, etc. The key here is that waste is controllable by said manufacturer, adn its their own fault if it cuts profitability. If this is such a huge thing to their business's profitability, then by god they are running their proverbial ship into the proverbial ground.

This sucks, especially because PP stuff is already quite expensive, at least on a per model basis.

I like PP just fine, but I haven't heard anyone claim they were less expensive than the alternatives (except for maybe startup costs) in a long time.

I wonder though, even if PP switches some "components" or whatever to plastics, even if they do end up significantly cutting their own costs down the road, I certainly wouldn't expect them to ever lower prices. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.


Also, one thing that has sort of been bothering me about a lot of the economic discussions we have on here, with any company:

Someone always chimes in with a comment like "They are a business silly! They are supposed to try to make the monies, not make you happy! They don't care about what you want!

The more I hear this though, the more I think it's a sort of asinine thing to say. I mean, yes, they are trying to make money. But where are they getting their money? From us, the consumers, the gamers. Depending on the terms you want to use, this hobby is made up of entertainment items, or luxury items. We buy this stuff because it makes us happy. If the company (PP, GW, Battle Front, or whoever) and its products stop making us happy, we will stop buying, and the company will stop making money!

So they had better care what makes us happy, and try to balance out the things that make us unhappy (like price increases) because if they don't make it their business to keep the gamers happy, they are going to be a business that doesn’t make money.

I understand, it’s a balancing act. But seriously. Give me a break.

Ghaz wrote:Do they have to tell you why they're rasing prices or justify doing so to you? The only people they need to justify rasing their prices to are their shareholders.

They don't have to tell me squat, however I don't have to buy their product either

Ghaz wrote:And who are any of us to determine what's an 'unreasonable rate'?

My duty as a consumer is to stop buying when I determine any manufacture has priced it's product too high for my liking. This may be why I haven't bought any GW product in 2 years other than army books. This may also by why I have NEVER bought anything at a local GW store unless it was on sale. Speaking of which, GW hasn't had a sale in like 5 or more years.

DeathGod wrote:

Techboss wrote:
At least PP is honest and TELLs it's clients why prices are going up.

What they told you is an absolute lie. Again, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the price increase, at all. It's their business and their profits, they can do what they will with their prices.

That being said, any manufacturer of a static product (by which I mean one that doesn't get used while using it, like gasoline, for example) who tells you his raw materials cost more than his labor is either lieing to you or works with rediculously rare materials (ie diamonds and gold for jewelry). As tin is not rare, I'll let you draw the inevitable conlcusion. If they had sited the raising cost of tin, labor and shipping, that'd eb a different story, but claiming tin is such a massive part of the expense of production that its rising cost alone (in the numbers given) prohibits profitability. I'm sure its a factor, but the point they've made just isn't true.

The fact that they gave you an explanation doesn't make it true. The fact that their explanation is hot air up the skirt, to me, is worse than GW not giving a reason at all (which is irrelevant to anyone who understands economics, because we knew why GW was rasing prices when they did so).

EDIT: I forgot a factor that might indeed make PP's highest manufacturing cost its raw materials - waste. In every manufacturing business, there will inevitably be waste of raw materials. Fall off lumber, excessive flash for molds, etc. The key here is that waste is controllable by said manufacturer, adn its their own fault if it cuts profitability. If this is such a huge thing to their business's profitability, then by god they are running their proverbial ship into the proverbial ground.

Is it hot air? Not according to the London Metal Exchange Chart that's posted on their site, which (surprise, surprise) is actually supported by the LME website. Why don't you do your homework next time when trying to contradict something that's easily verifiable from other sources.

Techboss wrote:My duty as a consumer is to stop buying when I determine any manufacture has priced it's product too high for my liking. This may be why I haven't bought any GW product in 2 years other than army books. This may also by why I have NEVER bought anything at a local GW store unless it was on sale. Speaking of which, GW hasn't had a sale in like 5 or more years.

And it's not your perogative to decide for everybody, is it? No. Yet that's exactly what your trying to do. You're welcome to your own opinion, but don't try and make it seem that everybody in the world agrees with you. They don't.

malfred wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Increases price at an unreasonable rate, often in great steps

And who are any of us to determine what's an 'unreasonable rate'?

The people who buy things. Though price was less of a reason for me to play more WM than it was the game. So I bought less 40k stuff (GW probably could care less. There are dozens of kids to take my place) and bought more PP stuff. I've said it before, I doubt GW notices it when casual players quit their games.

And again, does the whole world agree with you? If you don't know, then how do you know it's an 'unreasonable rate'? How can any of us determine what's an 'unreasonable rate'? We can't. Only the retailer can and only when his sales plummet. There may be a point at which you're not willing to buy the retailer's product any more, but that does NOT make it an 'unreasonable rate' for those that are willing to buy the retailer's product.

I don't think anyone is claiming that they've determined what the "unreasonable rate" for the whole world is, Ghaz. Most of the posters seem to be just talking about their personal experiences as individuals. Are you trying to argue with someone specific?

Yes Ghaz, you're right, we as individuals might not be able to say what the "unreasonable rate" for the world is. But we can decide what the "unreasonable rate" is for us. Once someone reaches that, their purchases start to decline, and then when they've had enough their purchases stop. The higher the prices go, the more people hit this "unreasonable rate."

When enough people have reached that point and stopped buying, then the company will stop making money. The people who have chosen to stop buying stuff have voted with their wallets, and the company goes down the economic toilet.

Are you trying to suggest otherwise?

Platuan4th wrote:
Is it hot air? Not according to the London Metal Exchange Chart that's posted on their site, which (surprise, surprise) is actually supported by the LME website. Why don't you do your homework next time when trying to contradict something that's easily verifiable from other sources.

If you'll re-read my post, you'll notice that I didn't say PP was fibbing about the price of tin going up. The price of EVERYthing is going up, why should tin be any different.

No, what I said was that PP was fibbing about tin being the largest cost component of their manufacturing process, and that therefor the price of tin increasing causes their loss of profitability, which in turn prompts the price increase. Anyone who has taken Micro knows that in the vast vast vast vast VAST majority of manufacturing labor is the highest cost.

Like I said, a conglomeration of cost increases across the board would cost profitability, sure, but thats not what PP said, is it? No, they said that tin costs made them lose profitability, and this the increase in prices. And anyone with any time spent in an Economics classroom (that yielded a passing grade) kows that what PP said is contrary to all accepted economic principles.

Was lie too strong a word to use? Maybe. Perhaps they were trying to say that costs across the board hurt profitability and that the cost increase for tin, after the cost of shipping going up and after the increase in cost-of-living wages, was what prompted the price increase (all of which I said in my earlier post) - but they didn't say that, did they.

I'll keep playing WM. A cost increase of $3-5 means nothing to me, and I'm a poor starving college student. I find the vast difference between 40k and WM a breath of fresh air (and I'll keep playing 40k and love the gak out of it). But that doesn't change the veracity of any of my posts.