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Go Price increase.

I like one of the Reason's

Gas increase's in Price

Thats very funny. (to what was said)

Hordini wrote:I don't think anyone is claiming that they've determined what the "unreasonable rate" for the whole world is, Ghaz.

If you look at the second quote from my first post in this thread it more than proves my point that at least one person in this thread thinks that he's the one who gets to decide what an 'unreasonable rate' is for all of us.

DeathGod wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Is it hot air? Not according to the London Metal Exchange Chart that's posted on their site, which (surprise, surprise) is actually supported by the LME website. Why don't you do your homework next time when trying to contradict something that's easily verifiable from other sources.

If you'll re-read my post, you'll notice that I didn't say PP was fibbing about the price of tin going up. The price of EVERYthing is going up, why should tin be any different.

No, what I said was that PP was fibbing about tin being the largest cost component of their manufacturing process, and that therefor the price of tin increasing causes their loss of profitability, which in turn prompts the price increase. Anyone who has taken Micro knows that in the vast vast vast vast VAST majority of manufacturing labor is the highest cost.

Like I said, a conglomeration of cost increases across the board would cost profitability, sure, but thats not what PP said, is it? No, they said that tin costs made them lose profitability, and this the increase in prices. And anyone with any time spent in an Economics classroom (that yielded a passing grade) kows that what PP said is contrary to all accepted economic principles.

Was lie too strong a word to use? Maybe. Perhaps they were trying to say that costs across the board hurt profitability and that the cost increase for tin, after the cost of shipping going up and after the increase in cost-of-living wages, was what prompted the price increase (all of which I said in my earlier post) - but they didn't say that, did they.

I'll keep playing WM. A cost increase of $3-5 means nothing to me, and I'm a poor starving college student. I find the vast difference between 40k and WM a breath of fresh air (and I'll keep playing 40k and love the gak out of it). But that doesn't change the veracity of any of my posts.

I'll agree I may have misread the post, but in fairness: "As well, rising gas prices have dramatically increased shipping costs, the repercussions of which can be seen everywhere with the general inflation that affects all of us."
They DO blame things other than Tin prices.

Touche. I read the notice on pp.com yesterday morning, so its been almost 2 days. I guess I've been reacting to what people have been posting ratehr than what PP said.

Then again, I'm still right, lol, so I'm still happy.

Alpharius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote: IOW, I perceive GW to be more honest and PP to be more hypocritical.

Come on John!

You don't really believe that, do you?

Actually, I do. GW has a certain frankness that I appreciate. I don't necessarily *like* what they say, but I don't think they're telling me something just because they think that is what I want to hear.

PatoX wrote:Has anyone weighed Privateer Press's figures?

Privateer Press is claiming the majority of their manufacturing cost are from the metal.

I just spent $11.99 on a dwarf solo. Certainly, there's a lot of profit in that price.

Currently, you can buy lead-free miniatures-grade pewter for $12 USD per pound as ingots of 6 to 7 pounds.

As an aside, an Empire Steam Tank weighs about 2 pounds (yes, I weighed it). So materials alone is $24 against a MSRP of $65 USD. So GW wholesales that bad boy around $35 USD. That Steam Tank is a *very* fairly-priced metal model.

If that Dwarf Solo retails for $12, then it probably wholesales for around $7. If PP isn't lying through their teeth, then they're spending at least $4 in raw materials. Given the materials price above, that Dwarf would have to weigh at least 1/3 of a pound, or 5.3 ounces...

Next time someone's at a Post Office, it's easy enough to check the weight, given that postage scales are accurate to well under an ounce.

DeathGod wrote:The cost of tin going simply marks the point where PP execs say, "Eff it, time to raise prices and stay profitable."

Oh, no doubt. But the explanation is clearly a lie.

Techboss wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heh. OK, PP apologists, tell us again how PP are the "good guys"...

At least PP is honest and TELLs it's clients why prices are going up.

No, PP is lying through their teeth. You just like them better because they tell a better lie.

I swear, sometimes, I think PP could tell people that they poop marshmallows, and people would eat it up.

Privateer Press is obviously trying to use the price of tin as a scapegoat for another reason for their price increase.

For one thing, they are not raising the price of their models the same percentage across the board. The Deathjack, one of the heavier models, is only going up a mere 10%. While the High Paladin Vilmon, a single man-size model is going up a whopping 50%.

If you consider the cost of tin is $11.40 a pound. The cost of tin has risen 63% in the last 18 months. Even so, tin represents a small percentage of the cost of even the heaviest model.

The majority of the cost has to be coming from all their other overhead. Manufacturing, design, distribution, infrastructure, marketing, etc., etc.

I'm wondering if they are raising their wholesale cost to equally match their retail cost. It's possible the wholesale cost are not going up as drastically. They could be leaving wholesale prices lower, while increasing suggested retail price to make their product line more desirable to distributors and retailers.

They're probably also spending lots of money on R&D for their new Monsterpocalypse system and they're trying to cover the cost of that.

Is it annoying that PP seems to be stretching the truth? Yes. Are their products still a damn good value? Yes.

I'm just glad when I buy something from PP, even if it costs me $50 (or now $55), I'll get some bang for my buck. It's going to do something for my entire army and change the synergy, make things work differently, etc., etc. And not get popped with a lucky glancing 6 on turn 1.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think PP could tell people that they poop marshmallows, and people would eat it up.

MMmmm...Marshmellows

Ghaz wrote:How can any of us determine what's an 'unreasonable rate'? We can't. Only the retailer can and only when his sales plummet. There may be a point at which you're not willing to buy the retailer's product any more, but that does NOT make it an 'unreasonable rate' for those that are willing to buy the retailer's product.

This has to be some kind of performance, as no one could actually say this and think it has merit. Of course we can determine what is an unreasonable rate- and just so you don't get offended, when I say "we," I mean a general anybody. Here's how it works: I look at a price and then compare it to what it used to cost. If I think it has gone up too much, then I don't buy it. Pow, unreasonable rate determined- FOR ME. That wasn't hard. Now, some other person might look at that same price increase and be fine with it. That means it wasn't an unreasonable rate- FOR THEM. Now, here's where it gets wild and crazy- the fact that someone doesn't think it was an unreasonable rate does not in any way invalidate the fact that someone else does, nor vice versa. It's called perspective.

Ghaz wrote:If you look at the second quote from my first post in this thread it more than proves my point that at least one person in this thread thinks that he's the one who gets to decide what an 'unreasonable rate' is for all of us.

That, or the more likely scenario that you enjoy jumping down the throat of people who don't share your opinion, and he was actually just speaking for himself, as implied by both "price was less of a reason for me to play more WM than it was the game" and "So I bought less 40k stuff." Had he said, for example, "people," rather than "me" or "I," there would've been reason to believe he was trying to speak for others, but he didn't. Even then, though, it would be pretty obvious he only presumed to speak for people who share that opinion. You just really wanted to take it personally.

It's a message board. I would think it's a given that when someone says something, they're saying it from their own experience and perspective. It would take a pretty severe persecution complex for one to inherently assume that when anyone says anything publicly that he doesn't agree with, that they must be attempting to speak for him. Relax a little.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As an aside, an Empire Steam Tank weighs about 2 pounds (yes, I weighed it). So materials alone is $24 against a MSRP of $65 USD. So GW wholesales that bad boy around $35 USD. That Steam Tank is a *very* fairly-priced metal model.

Steam tanks cost 65 dollars in the US? At GW Helsinki, it's somewhere around 65€, which boils down to about $100. Thank you for taking the time to weigh it, BTW, the estimate of its material costs is very interesting, as it's probably among the heaviest GW metal kits these days, and one kit whose price tag does appear rather jaw-dropping at first glance, especially to outsiders who see only a fairly small "toy".

Hopefully, PP would clarify what they mean by "components done in plastic". Hybrid metal-plastic models are fairly annoying to build, and I hope they don't do something like making a warjack with a plastic chassis and metal arms. As anyone who's built old Devastators can attest to, that's a nightmare to balance, pin and build. I'd be interested in seeing what a fully-plastic warjack would look like (the "feel" of metal miniatures that's so important to many isn't so for me), but I suspect they'd need advanced moulding technology (something akin to what Dragon uses) to parallel the quality of sculpting seen on their metal range so far.

I am really interested in how this might affect european sales. Up to know prices were converted 1:1 from Dollar to Euro which with an exchange rate of 1.5 in the worst case is rather shocking for european customers. Cerbereus which produces the minis in license for Europe and at least the german distributor Ulisses have agreed upon not putting it all on the shoulders of the customers but shouldering some of the increase themselves. With this new increase the point would be reached where the have to do it, since it would be a financial nightmare for them. This could really hurt the european market.

@rules
You forgot the many erratas, regarding this GW got way better in the last years. PP goes the same road Rackham went with the old Confrontation and which nearlly killed them. PP already had to resort to a smaller font size to print all the information an the mini cards. I can´t see how this makes their rules much better than GW´s

Duncan_Idaho wrote:I am really interested in how this might affect european sales. Up to know prices were converted 1:1 from Dollar to Euro which with an exchange rate of 1.5 in the worst case is rather shocking for european customers. Cerbereus which produces the minis in license for Europe and at least the german distributor Ulisses have agreed upon not putting it all on the shoulders of the customers but shouldering some of the increase themselves. With this new increase the point would be reached where the have to do it, since it would be a financial nightmare for them. This could really hurt the european market.

Yeah, the major reason WM died here was due to high prices ( and that was like a couple years ago) Imagine now.
Good to know german distributors are taking a bit of the heat to... i guess its another reason for me to continue to get my stuff at battlefield berlin.

Those responsible for starting the unneeded hostility in this thread have been punished and I would appreciate if the ridiculous "GW fanboi" vs. "PP apologist" jargon would be immediately dropped from this thread.

Discussing the fact that price increases from one company can be accepted by some people who get irked by price increases from another company is certainly a valid topic of conversation, but if you can't do it in a civil way (perhaps try understanding why someone might think differently from you) then you need to refrain from posting.

Thanks, and you've been warned so post at your own risk.