Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

....or "Does GW have any idea of what it is doing?"


For awhile I laughed at how I knew that the DA/BA codices wouldn't get any retcon. But I was just being cruel because of how the fanboys defended and lauded Jervis' handling of those books.


I have been thinking about this a lot and I have come to the realization that if Jervis doesn't retcon some of this stuff into the DA/BA codices via FAQ, he is a real tool.

By that I mean is that he strung everyone along with this 'grand plan' of reorganizing the structure of the game.
Some severe toning down of abilities.
To the point where people really snigger when they hear the names of the DA and BA codex mentioned.

And now we see all of these pretty much confirmed rumours (in all aspects except seeing the codex in hand) putting a waffle stomp on on this 'grand plan' he himself initiated.

I disliked how Jervis handled the DA codex, and I especially disliked how he pontificated to other designers about how it should be done when it was obviously not the way to go to make the customers happy.
However, I am glad to see a bit more flavor returning, but..... find a fething plan and stick to it for chrissakes!

I don't even play these codices, and I feel really bad for the armies. These armies are rather recent and they wont see a 5th ed codex for many years to come. Does GW expect DA/BA players to just sit idly by trying to enjoy their rules waiting for a new codex when they KNOW in their hearts the rules that they use are a crock of poo-doo? Give 'em a FAQ with a few minor upgrades so that they know they aren't forgotten.

However, BT can forget about it. They still get tons of cool crap such as two heavies in a 5 man termie squad, an actual wargear list, etc. Giving them any of the new stuff is just asking for the revisit of 3rd ed BT cheese fests. if anything BT lists need to be toned down to match.

I honestly think ol' Jervy-poo needs to make a huge apology to the consumers he reeled in with his spiel.
Jervis has made himself into the George Bush Jr. of the wargaming world.
Like GWB he lacks any credibility in my eyes because it seems rather apparent that he doesnt have the slightest idea what he or the rest of his designers are doing.

Again, I say this to GW (and to the pontificating Jervis especially):

FAQ now, or STFU!

Couldn't agree more

I don't see why all the varient marine chapters can't just get one supplementary book (a bit like Craftworld Eldar, only bigger and better!).

That way as and when they redo the main SM codex they only need to FAQ and then update 1 book instead of four...

I completely agree. If those codices don't get updated with a lot of "See SM Codex page XX" then it will be a huge disservice to the armies and the players.

Though i agree the DA codex is subpar... I will disagree with your assessment of the BA codex. Play against my 2k point with Dante AND brotha C and tell me BA are underpowered. (PE and FC 12" bubble) with 2 18" movement rhinos and a 8 man death company.

So, a gimmick army that relys on special characters to work. Yup, that's successful game design right there folks...

BYE

Yeah, I agree - relying on special characters isn't the way to go.

But really, how could GW not see this coming. They've got three codices, which reprint the majority of troop types, they're bound to have problems when they try to update ONE of them.

One army gets cheaper rhinos, One army can take two Terminator heavies, etc.

Seriously, why make all these extra books? It only makes things confusing. You could sum up all the extra rules for most of these chapters on one page, two at the most.

Make a SM codex. Put in two pages each on BA, DA, BT and SW with the extra units and special rules. That's it.

I agree. But can you imagine the furor surrounding that by other SM players who play subchapters?

Jesus, it would be like the second coming of Hitler or something.

For BAs as they essentially have a PDF codex (as the WD was printed so long ago) it would be easy enough to update it rather tahn do a FAQ.

im interested to see how my deathwing will hold up to the likes of the new lysander wing, what with them getting access to the new landraider varient and suppossed rule changes for things like venerable dreadnoughts. not too well me thinks.

the zodiac killer wrote:im interested to see how my deathwing will hold up to the likes of the new lysander wing, what with them getting access to the new landraider varient and suppossed rule changes for things like venerable dreadnoughts. not too well me thinks.

As someone who actually does play lysander wing, DW never did hold up well against it. Too severely outclassed in weaponry.

The new codex will definitely even that out a since there are no longer any termie command squads. Lysander loses his phalanx assault rule. Lysanderwing is basically dead.

The answer to the question is "yes." Games Workshop stores continue to move product and Games Workshop head office continues to post profits. Mr. Johnson can collect his paycheque and sleeps peacefully at night. I'd say they know exactly what they're doing.

I don't see this as something that is easily fixed with an FAQ. Consider there are rumored to be major differences between the new SM and DA/BA, what stuff from SM dex should be added to DA/BA? What about the various stat changes and removal of abilities rumored for the new SM (downgraded chaplains and librarians, removal of rites of battle, etc).

Is there really a problem with leaving the BA/DA alone as the standalone codexes they were designed to be? It isn't as if the option to use the new dex is denied to DA/BA. Seems to me you can still make an effective and fluffy BA army with either dex. Same for a standard DA army or even a Ravenwing army. Only DW get screwed a bit but are still an option (could be worse, ala LatD, 13th company or any number of unsupported armies).

Yes, it is a problem with leaving the BA/DA codices the way they are..... because they suck. Sure, you could make a BA and DA codex with the new space marine dex..... but then what's the point of having a DA/BA dex in the first place? Why not just get rid of all the SM chapters and make the "Not Marine" codex players happy? They could fix all their screw ups from the past years with TWO PAGES of extras for each chapter! What's that, like 30 minutes of time a chapter?

but then what's the point of having a DA/BA dex in the first place?

There was no point, in my opinion, other then a lame attempt at selling models. It was a huge mistake. They should have just had 'get you by' pdf's that allowed current BA/DA armies to be playable in 4ed and been done with it till 5ed (where they get rolled into the vanilla codex as they should have been all along).

Hellfury wrote:....or "Does GW have any idea of what it is doing?"

Yes, GW does.

The recent WD list for BA is pretty reasonable - just not stupidly brokenly good. The DA book has good Fluff and the Veterans bitz are quite good - DA haven't been super-competitive in a very long time (i.e. since the dawn of 3rd Ed), so their competitiveness just doesn't matter. BT as you note are still strong.

What's really funny is that you totally forgot about the Woofs. Just like GW.

Anyhow, BA are easy enough to fix with a new WD article - and there are some minor balance tweaks that they need anyways, so this isn't a big deal.

ArbitorIan wrote:Seriously, why make all these extra books?

Make a SM codex. Put in two pages each on BA, DA, BT and SW with the extra units and special rules.

Because some players will buy each paint scheme, netting GW more money?

Then GW wouldn't have more MEQ options than non-MEQ options and the 40k universe would implode.

winterman wrote:I don't see this as something that is easily fixed with an FAQ. Consider there are rumored to be major differences between the new SM and DA/BA, what stuff from SM dex should be added to DA/BA? What about the various stat changes and removal of abilities rumored for the new SM (downgraded chaplains and librarians, removal of rites of battle, etc).

Is there really a problem with leaving the BA/DA alone as the standalone codexes they were designed to be? It isn't as if the option to use the new dex is denied to DA/BA. Seems to me you can still make an effective and fluffy BA army with either dex. Same for a standard DA army or even a Ravenwing army. Only DW get screwed a bit but are still an option (could be worse, ala LatD, 13th company or any number of unsupported armies).

What would be included? I am not worried about special rules and all that. What aI am talking about is consistency. We are rapidly approaching 3rd ed levels of inconsistency here. Everyone has different landraiders, cyclones, etc. Make these things consistent. A landraider is a landraider is a landraider so to speak. They dont have to have redeemers. Just make their landraiders match what the vanillas landraiders are.

It does get a little wonky with issues such as scouts having differing WS and BS, but those can stay for now I guess. Or changed, I don't care really.

But I dont want to see across the table an army who has heavy1 cyclones opposing an army that has heavy2 cyclones. Its simply rubbish.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:....or "Does GW have any idea of what it is doing?"

Yes, GW does.

The recent WD list for BA is pretty reasonable - just not stupidly brokenly good. The DA book has good Fluff and the Veterans bitz are quite good - DA haven't been super-competitive in a very long time (i.e. since the dawn of 3rd Ed), so their competitiveness just doesn't matter. BT as you note are still strong.

I agree BA is fairly reasonable. I will fully admit that I do not have much experience seeing them across the table from me since third edition.

But again it is an issue with consistency.

The DA competitiveness does matter though. Its a great looking army with many followers.
Jervis has utterly failed them in all respects.

I left out SW because it seems a fairly common assertion that they are getting a new codex soon, so their whining wont be for much longer I do not imagine.

But now that I think about it, what about the SW right now? Their 4th ed FAQ allowing them to use the 4th ed SM codex as modified are where in october? Will they now use the 5th ed SM codex with the 4th ed FAQ?

Nice mess, that one.

Hellfury wrote:The DA competitiveness does matter though. Its a great looking army with many followers.
Jervis has utterly failed them in all respects.

I wouldn't go that far. Rules-wise, the DA are playable, they got some new toys, they can field pure Ravenwing or pure Deathwing armies. And they haven't given up any competitiveness since they got their first mini-Dex in 3rd Edition.

If Jervis were to utterly fail them, the DA would lose their ability to field Ravenwing or Deathwing at all. And they'd be even *less* competitive than they've been to date (hard to imagine, but theoretically possible).

BA is good.

Deathwing is weak. The best Deathwing was the one where you could mix all the weapons with 6 - 8 sized squads.

Ravenwing is expensive points-wise.

And the disadvantage of both is that you have to take the crazy uber-char which you may not always want. But I guess we will get used to that in the new marine book.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with the BA list. They're been doing well at tourneys. DA have always been rubbish - traitorous scum. Acting all mysterious when we know exactly what they did... just Exterminatus 'em already.

Codex: AoD was great, wasn't it?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:The DA competitiveness does matter though. Its a great looking army with many followers.
Jervis has utterly failed them in all respects.

I wouldn't go that far. Rules-wise, the DA are playable, they got some new toys, they can field pure Ravenwing or pure Deathwing armies. And they haven't given up any competitiveness since they got their first mini-Dex in 3rd Edition.

An army built with the 3rd ed mini-dex will beat an army built with the new codex.

You guys are silly, of course GW wants you to buy more codexes, more $$!

The thing that annoys me the most is the rumour that vanilla dreadnoughts may have access to 2 CCW's in the new codex. As a long time BA player, i think it sucks real hard to have the Furioso, one of our most characterful and fluffy units, cannibalised for Ultraweakmarines to get their fscking hands on.

Grrrrrr

I'm just glad I'm doing a Deamon army at the moment.

I've been a devout DA player since 2nd edition, not prone to jealousy, and always sticking to my codex out of pride for the chapter. If I'm bringing a loyalist Marine army to the table, you can bet that its Dark Angels. Never using another codex as a crutch to get better units, I've always stuck with the DA codex using it the best I could.....

I'm in total agreement with some of the above statements. With all of these rumours coming out, if a large portion of them are true, our codex is a total failure and Jervis really screwed the pooch.

Loyalist space marines=TONS of options
DA's=Hardly any

There look to be SOO many ways to play the new Marine dex....its getting to the point that even if point cost is thru the roof (which by looking at the cost of tac-squads it isnt) there are still a plethora of options to make you happy and experimenting with army builder for a LONG time. Nevermind the chapter specific vehicles (which we've NEVER gotten ie-Wolf's Leman russ, B'aal, and now redeemers, scout speeders, and techmarine scary gun)

I'm going to pick up this codex. If it is actually as bad as I think its going to be, I'll be finally jumping ship after sticking with dark angels thru thick and thin for 3 editions of the game. I'll be saying goodbye to the Lion and adopting the ways of Ferrus Manus. More likely I'll drop Marines for all time or until another 5 years or so pass when the DA's get yet another flawed codex.

...for now THIS may be the last straw....I'll wait until the book gets into my hands before I pass final judgement however.

Shane! NO! Don't give in.....


What the DA lack in special rules....they more than make up for with Ultra-Coolness!

Fortunately, my 4th ed. traits marines were designed to be BT-eque, so if I ever do 40k again, I can just run 'em as BTs.

As to the endless swinging pendulum of GW nerfing/ubering their armies/rules...that's just the nature of the game, and either you have to accept that as a fact of life and decide you still enjoy the game and want to play it in its current edition, or you and your buddies stick with the edition you like and ignore the RT scene, or you move to a different game. I got off the merry-go-round in part because, even though I had so much Eldar stuff from 2nd ed. that I'd be able to rework my army with almost no effort, the idea of doing so for the 3rd time just exhausted me.

Aldonis wrote:Shane! NO! Don't give in.....


What the DA lack in special rules....they more than make up for with Ultra-Coolness!

Yeah...'Ultra-Coolness' wins games...

Is ultracoolness an ultramarine rule?

[edit]
Besides dude, you're missing the point completely. Its not about special rules, its about consistency.

Do you want to face an army across from you who has twice as many shots with their cyclones as you are packing?

It kinda makes one feel a shrinking feeling in the pants so to speak.

Angron wrote:Yes, it is a problem with leaving the BA/DA codices the way they are..... because they suck. Sure, you could make a BA and DA codex with the new space marine dex..... but then what's the point of having a DA/BA dex in the first place? Why not just get rid of all the SM chapters and make the "Not Marine" codex players happy? They could fix all their screw ups from the past years with TWO PAGES of extras for each chapter! What's that, like 30 minutes of time a chapter?

They don't suck.

And my guess is that the new marines will be costed at a higher level, so there. For all the gnashing of teeth, wailing of women, and rent sackcloth we have in this thread, we still have yet to see points costs for these kewl powerz, so the point is moot.

As long as we (BA/DA) get the Redeemer, I'm cool.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Angron wrote:Yes, it is a problem with leaving the BA/DA codices the way they are..... because they suck. Sure, you could make a BA and DA codex with the new space marine dex..... but then what's the point of having a DA/BA dex in the first place? Why not just get rid of all the SM chapters and make the "Not Marine" codex players happy? They could fix all their screw ups from the past years with TWO PAGES of extras for each chapter! What's that, like 30 minutes of time a chapter?

They don't suck.

And my guess is that the new marines will be costed at a higher level, so there. For all the gnashing of teeth, wailing of women, and rent sackcloth we have in this thread, we still have yet to see points costs for these kewl powerz, so the point is moot.

As long as we (BA/DA) get the Redeemer, I'm cool.

You're right, they dont suck.

I mean really, who likes loads and loads of options in a codex? Who likes new vehicles? Both of THOSE things are what sucks.

I would rather have a codex where every single army is the same or one that features the only 'trick' availiable to the codex. (deathwing assault assisted by scouting bikers)

Dont count on getting the new vehicles, they have NEVER retconned to add units into a previously released codex, regardless of how much sense it would make. Thats ok though, like I said above, new vehicles and the options on the battlefield that they bring suck anyway, who'd want to take something new and fresh. Give me stale and played out any day.

I dont need attack bike squadrons, they suck. I know I'm ravenwing and all that and should have more bike options than a vanilla dex, but screw that.

I dont need veteran squads with str 6 power weapons. (as ridiculous as that is in the first place, seriously) I dont need the option for them, what can str 6 kill that str 4 cannot?

I dont need umpteen versions of dreadnaughts even though they failed to give us OUR special version of a dread that was supposed to come out in the EARLY early rumours of the DA codex. Give me one overpriced dread any day of the week over the multiple options of dreads that vanilla marines get.

I dont need combat tactics, even though loyalist space marines have been all fighting the same way for 5 editions of the game leadership wise.

...............................................

The truth of the situation, is points aside, you have SO many different, new and fresh things in this space marine codex that make it not necessarily overpowered, but loaded with different ways to do battle. Variety, that's what we're talking about here. Variety is what this new codex has in droves and the DA/BA's have in miniscule amounts.

Point cost is a factor sure, but the points will work themselves out. You may not be able to take ALL the toys here, but the different ooptions that you will have to take will be staggering. Just like in the old Chaos codex, noone could take ALL the toys, but the different flavors of armies were abundant.

No you wont be getting the new vehicles, that is a pipe dream. Our codeii dont suck, they dont even suck hard.....They're a flat out slap in the face.

Oh yea, and before you say that DA dont need the options as they're only representing one chapter....NO....

....the DA codex is not a supplement as before, its a CODEX BOOK. It's its own army that deserves the treatment (or at least a portion of the treatment) of this new book.

We're being left out to dry....and yes, our book DOES most assuradly SUCK!

Not missing the point - just speaking tongue in cheek to a fellow DA fan.

I played them in second also - just normal joe's then. 3rd edition codex turned them into an underpowered army - I still played them. Even with the Roll a 1 and the squad stands and and yells at the enemy.

Then the FAQ's helped out - but Marines overall are underpowered.

Then the new DA codex - very characterful but underpowered still. A few nice things - but didn't see the point...until....5th edition - where the things like combat squads and Deathwing, etc begin to look much more viable.

Now the new Marine dex is coming out - and may make the DA and BA the laughing stock of the space marine gamers. But...the DA still have a great fluff and are fun to play from that standpoint regardless.


Also, I believe I heard FAQ would come out with the Dex to cover the other chapters out - DA, BA, and Wolves.

So...all may not be lost....I'm hoping they change the new dex to have it in line with the rest of the chapters.

Either way - I'll still play them - maybe not as my tourney army though.

What basically amounts to a brand new codex almost and the DA's need a retcon to include new and fun units for me to play with on the table?

.....gay.