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Since we have new developments regarding this whole issue, I will reiterate what I previously said:

FAQ now, or STFU!

I mean that in the truest sense of sincerity.

GW, you don't have much credibility to begin with, don't make it worse. Especially now on the cusp of a new edition.

If Index Astartes were reprinted as an Apocalypse supplement, I'd be all for it.

But really, *another* book for Marines?

Really?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Index Astartes were reprinted as an Apocalypse supplement, I'd be all for it.

But really, *another* book for Marines?

Really?

I am not sure if that was directed at me, but since there is no quote and it directly proceeds my post, I will assume it is.

Who is asking for a book? I am talking about a one or two page Errata until they do get a new book sometime in the Far Future Where There Is Only...Stuff.

It's not specifically to you, just reacting to the prior discussion of IA. But it could be a way to print the FAQs in one place.

Ok, I've been one of the biggest advocates for the DA book since it came out. *Sigh* I'm disappointed.

As others have pointed out, the DA really don't have any unique things to them (at least in the way that the other Marines do). I will be picking up the new SM Codex and unless I am playing a Death/Raven/Double-Wing army I will be using the new codex. There is no reason not to! I can field a DA-esque army using the SM dex just as well as the DA dex and that I think is the failure.

I do believe that all the marine sub-dexes should have gotten rolled into the SM dex simply because it makes updating them easier. They don't need to release 5 books to update Loyalist marines, they can release one, cool book and everyone can make an army from that one.

Unlike Abby and HBMC, I think the Chaos dex is a huge success in this regard. You can make just about any Legion as well as any Warband using the Chaos Dex.

I have always played Dark Angels for the fluff and back-story and not for the special rules. I can still do that with the new SM codex. I don't play in many tournaments and if I do I'd probably take Ravenwing anyway.

That's my 2-cents.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I would support GW making a single Marine codex, the only reason I want a Slaanesh codex is so I can get my daemonettes back.

DA and BA easliy fit in the current structure of the codex. Add 4 characters; Lemartes, Death Company, Masters of the Ravenwing and Deathwing and there you go. I seriously doubt any marine player would argue with gaining the Baal and Furioso to play with. The Space Wolves and Black Templars would be harder but not impossible. I expect GW will make the SW much closer to codex with the new dex anyway.

GW needs to be consistent. What's the point in investing money in their products when I don't know what they are going to do next?

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW needs to be consistent. What's the point in investing money in their products when I don't know what they are going to do next?

GW *is* consistent - whatever Codex you use will be valid until such time as GW deigns to revisit and revise it. If some other Codex gets a shiny new toy, and you want it, you can buy that Codex and use it until such time as GW magnanimously chooses to update that one as well.

In the mean time, it's not like your armies turn to dust or something.

It's just, oh noes, your army may not be the most optimized thing out there.

If you want to continuously chase having the nominally "strongest" army from a theoretical standpoint, you can keep buying Codices from GW. If you want to spend less on Codices, pick something and stick with it.

ArbitorIan wrote:Yeah, I agree - relying on special characters isn't the way to go.

But really, how could GW not see this coming. They've got three codices, which reprint the majority of troop types, they're bound to have problems when they try to update ONE of them.

One army gets cheaper rhinos, One army can take two Terminator heavies, etc.

Seriously, why make all these extra books? It only makes things confusing. You could sum up all the extra rules for most of these chapters on one page, two at the most.

Make a SM codex. Put in two pages each on BA, DA, BT and SW with the extra units and special rules. That's it.

I totally agree. I thought the way they did legions in the 3.5 chaos book was fine. 2 pages per legion/chapter listing the special rules. Preferably rules that aren't insanely overpowered.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW needs to be consistent. What's the point in investing money in their products when I don't know what they are going to do next?

GW *is* consistent - whatever Codex you use will be valid until such time as GW deigns to revisit and revise it. If some other Codex gets a shiny new toy, and you want it, you can buy that Codex and use it until such time as GW magnanimously chooses to update that one as well.

In the mean time, it's not like your armies turn to dust or something.

It's just, oh noes, your army may not be the most optimized thing out there.

If you want to continuously chase having the nominally "strongest" army from a theoretical standpoint, you can keep buying Codices from GW. If you want to spend less on Codices, pick something and stick with it.

You assume too much. I'm not chasing the best army. I want GW to have a rules philosophy throughout their codices other than "Sell shiny new models." When they release a book where some of the stuff is great and some of it is very weak, it's obvious they aren't interested in writing decent rules. If they were, then they'd make an effort to make every unit choice useful in some way.

There's also the long wait in between codices. I don't want to wait years for an update when an FAQ would suffice. And for me, it would. Just something to show that they are listening. If I don't like my codex, that's not motivation to buy another army until the next release. That's reason for me to stop using the codex, which probably means not playing the game. How is that good business sense for GW? Encouraging players when established armies to shelve models because their new codex is boring, rushed, or obviously far weaker than the other codices?

I don't want the best army in the game. I want an even playing field and interesting rules. Right now GW provides neither. Certain books vastly overpower other books, and the new rules just aren't that great, unless I want to jump ship and play loyalists, which I don't.





Right now the only consistent thing they do is act inconsistently.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:GW *is* consistent - whatever Codex you use will be valid until such time as GW deigns to revisit and revise it.

You assume too much. I'm not chasing the best army. I want GW to have a rules philosophy throughout their codices other than "Sell shiny new models."

Right now the only consistent thing they do is act inconsistently.

No, GW's only consistent thing is that they try to sell shiny new models.

Wow. We agree on something.

Lemme check to see if the moon is red or something or there's a twin-tailed comet flying in the sky...

BYE

So you are asking how a inconsistent company could mess up so consistently?

Just checking.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

dont know if this has been posted before or not as I am in a hurry and only read the first page (damn job) but I would be quite happy (not sure about you guys) if they did a well balanced marine codex (hopefully 5th ed dex will fulfil this) and then did WD codexes on each of the 'marketed' (DA,BA,WS,SW,BT,IF,CF etc) chapters, a bit like how they did index astartes, with subtle changes to the marine dex rather than a new full-blown codex for each, then either publish them in a book or in pdf format.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So, a gimmick army that relys on special characters to work. Yup, that's successful game design right there folks...

BYE

That's quite a cynical view. I bet a lot of the new SM armies will feature special characters. In fact you are a very special character yourself! G

I dunno how cynical it is, or more realistic GBF. I mean, look at the BA dex. To some, I could really see that it sounds like a bad sales pitch.

"SURE you could have Furious Charge on all your marines! For the mere cost of taking Corbulo, you too..."

I dunno what makes "successful game design", but I know what I enjoy playing. I enjoy playing my Jumpwing, always have. I really don't appreciate having them wave these huge special abilities in my face, provided I take a named IC. I mean, HOW many BA Jumpwings are going to be running Dante? Try all of them.

In the end, it all boils down to personal prefferance and why you are gaming.

I am satisfied with the new BA codex and I understand why players don't want to lumped together with DA. BA
got to keep all their trademark units but nothing new and I am okay with that too. The DA codex is an utter failure as is Jervis as a developer.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with fielding special characters and no one should be criticized if they do. Look how popular the combination of Eldrad/Avatar is. I am sure we will see a lot of chapter masters roaming the tables soon. I am okay with that as well. It is the current direction of the game. Heck BT have always had their champion. It's no big deal.

I don't like to see yak spouting off against Marines but he is entitled to his opinions so I just give him a hard time about it. HMBC just comes across as bitter about the nerd to Chaos and deletion of Lost and the Damned. L&tD was a Chaos/IG cherry picker army. I do feel bad about Chaos but it is still playable. There is no way Chaos was going to be able to keep all the options. G

FWIW, I agree with much of the sentiment expressed on both sides of this issue.

Here's my simple take on it.

GW hasn't gotten me to buy new models with their new way of doing things. It's been a big fail, company wide.

With the SM Codex, I am buying because I feel like I can finally make a competitive marine army.

So to recap:

Marines won't suck. This is new.

I will spend money on GW products. This is new.

I don't see the issue with Special Characters being required and gimmick armies becoming common.

I mean, it's not like nobody here plays Warmachine / Hordes...

there have always and always will be the gimmick armies. G

it looks realy nice but nid hunters is now universal not only the ultra mariens the things that made ultra mariens some what special are gone now en universal.

Green Blow Fly wrote:That's quite a cynical view.

You do know who you're talking to, right?

Green Blow Fly wrote:I bet a lot of the new SM armies will feature special characters.

Of course they will, because people who want to play Sallies, Raven Guard, Imp Fists, White Scars and Crimsons fists have to bring them now, otherwise they're just playing 'Counts As' Marines, and as much as my main man DD loves that idea, a lot of people don't.

Green Blow Fly wrote:In fact you are a very special character yourself!

If the next Imperial Guard Codex doesn't include Commissar Lord Matthius Calgar - the Half Brother of Marneus Calgar - I will be very dissapointed. Ok, ok. Let's be honest, more dissapointed, as I don't expect anything good from GW with the new Guard Codex.

BYE

To be honest I don't expect anything really great for IG either. It has always been my opinion that IG is an army for people that like to field a lot treads. The new rules for fifth edition has given them some advantages but I am aware that kill points hurt them in a tournament environment.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It has always been my opinion that IG is an army for people that like to field a lot treads.

*checks Guard army, sees over 50 tanks*

Yeah, that's pretty true. But then again, I also like fielding forests of infantry (I have around 400+/- infantry as well). The enemy can't shoot you if you clog up their barrels with the bodies of your men.

BYE

to be onist the new codex makes it possebal for the peaple on the imperiums side to win a game for one's
hell the chaos player and the nid player win all the time.
in the campain for some weard reson I em the bigist loyalist player in te store that is in the campain and I only have 1/4 of the bigist choas player and 1/8 of the bigist nid player ( yes thay bouth kan feeld a wooping 20000 pnt army's in apoc.

GW should re think the whole marine dex's, and make 1.
i needs to be around 4-5x the size of the normalone (ok, price will go up alot)
but then its all in 1 book, most chapters are now being hidden away since nothing is ever mentioned of them.

and back to the 1st page about relying on special characters, i used to do that with my chaos DP, a nice 9-11 attacks on the charge, S6, T6, W4, 2+sv, and allowed no saves, this and an expensive unit of chosen used to work wonders in crushing an army on its own, now though, thanks to the new dex, theres no such thing as a strong DP :K
so mines now in pieces in my bitzbox since it has no use.

With me being lazy and not having 2 hours to read this whole post.......

Is it rumor or confirmed. All SM armies are getting zinged for time being and must use the new SM codex as their army book. I heard this and just growled.

What I'm saying is this. I just have modeled and had painted a Ravenwing/Deathwing army. Will I get to use my army in same way with the release of new SM codex.

I have been gathering impression that my Apothecaries will not be honored with giving my squads "Feel no Pain" like the "Blessed 'Nilla marines" can. Also, nauseated by thought that I can't do Termie assault per DA codex.

Quell my irrational thought process, sombody. Tell me this is B******t and I can continue happily playing my DA's in current DA codex form enjoying some new SM codex upgrades.

Tis bs, all seperate chapter books are still legal. Though they don't get any of the new stuff that marines get. (for example the FNP apoths rule. We don't get that, though I don't see your problem seeing as you run Ultras as well as Unforgiven. (W00t Pride to the Emo Marines!!!)

BA/DA players have always been the laughing stock of MEqs. At least where I'm from... BA are even more vanilla than Smurfs, and having a BA army basically means you don't know the game rules properly. Because you're a noob. Sorry, not making a big judgement here - it's just that "Blood Angels player" means "vampire kid who paints the eye-liner on his models" by my own unfortunate circumstances of association.

If my armies were vulnerable to BA tactics I'd have a different opinion, of course. All-jumppacking-death-company apocalypse scale lists are another thing. But they never had eye-liner, or tried to justify getting into combat on the first round because "maybe my ruler is a bit different to yours". Ahem.

I loved the last marinedex. I've held the new one in my hands, read it throughout, and I don't like it. Might have something to do with the fact that most of my old marines were reconstructed with assault/cc weapons. Las/plas isn't great in 5th - I want my bloody divergency back! CA is just out of date now, and that's about all there is to it. Obviously the GW boys have been busy and missed a few things. Happens EVERY new edition, EVERY new codex, but despite the chips and bangs the game must go on, and forward at that!

In summary, FAQs are for explaining things to people with BA armies, not for giving them better lists. BA don't need it. Dark Angels might, but self-loathing people just don't seem to get as many breaks, do they?

Ratbarf wrote:Tis bs, all seperate chapter books are still legal. Though they don't get any of the new stuff that marines get. (for example the FNP apoths rule. We don't get that, though I don't see your problem seeing as you run Ultras as well as Unforgiven. (W00t Pride to the Emo Marines!!!)

Well if I'm going to run an Apothecary in my Deathwing squad I'd like to have access to up to date tech. Ultramarines are whole different army. Comparing is moot!

GW likes to take one step forward then two steps back.

Hey guys, if you dont mind I'm collating a bit of online research.

If you dont mind checking out this link here on Dakka for a Poll... ->

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217358.page#367532

and clicking one option !

Thanks in advance.
Thanks again.