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Valhallan42nd wrote:

Angron wrote:Yes, it is a problem with leaving the BA/DA codices the way they are..... because they suck. Sure, you could make a BA and DA codex with the new space marine dex..... but then what's the point of having a DA/BA dex in the first place? Why not just get rid of all the SM chapters and make the "Not Marine" codex players happy? They could fix all their screw ups from the past years with TWO PAGES of extras for each chapter! What's that, like 30 minutes of time a chapter?

They don't suck.

And my guess is that the new marines will be costed at a higher level, so there. For all the gnashing of teeth, wailing of women, and rent sackcloth we have in this thread, we still have yet to see points costs for these kewl powerz, so the point is moot.

As long as we (BA/DA) get the Redeemer, I'm cool.

Heh. The marines are costing exactly the same as the DA/BA alternatives. Look more closely at the rumours flying about. Some very solid people who normally are spot on are saying this. Take that for what it is worth.

And dude, they more than likely wont be getting that vehicle, I wouldnt hold my breath to have that added. Its asking enough as it is just to bring the DA up to par with their brethren's newer rules.

Th whole wiling and gnashing of teeth comment is rather uncalled for to be precise. This isnt a bitch thread, this is to logically air out the grievances for the lack of consistency. In sometimes a flavorful manner. That comment is pure hyperbole.

I was just as upset about the proposed changes as anyone else.

And then I sat and thought about it. Most of changes are to things that would not affact my list building. I don't use high-end high-costed killie squads, I don't think I'd ever deep strike a unit close enough to probably scatter into them and die, esspecailly a high costed unit, etc. Most of these added units will just appear in high pointed apoc style games, and most of the better armies will focus on making balanced tight lists with proper support.

The issue of cylcones will probably be FAQed, and there will probably be a WD update of the other codexes adding the reedemer and scout bikes, etc because they want to sell them to as many people as possible.

We won't know this until closer to release time, but I'm patient.

I also hear that there is a point increase for tac squads, but if ten are taken, it evens out with the "free" equipment available. Just like my death company are "free".

At the next Gamesday, someone should ask Jervis why he hates Dark Angels.

There really is no reason other than marketing for multiple marine codexes anymore. Add the RW and DW special characters, Baal, Lemartes and the Death Company to the regular codex and you're done. After some whining, most would realize its better in the long run.

Hellfury wrote:Heh. The marines are costing exactly the same as the DA/BA alternatives.

And dude, they more than likely wont be getting that vehicle, I wouldnt hold my breath to have that added. Its asking enough as it is just to bring the DA up to par with their brethren's newer rules.

Th whole wiling and gnashing of teeth comment is rather uncalled for to be precise.

Yup. 90 points for Vet + 4 SM.

I don't know that the DA need the Redeemer. But I think it would be appropriate to give them the Ironclad Dread. DA are their own Chapter, and they have some deviance beyond wearing dresses. So maybe newer technology like Scout Speeders is stuff they disdain.

Personally, I like it when the women rend their garments...

Valhallan42nd wrote:I was just as upset about the proposed changes as anyone else.

And then I sat and thought about it. Most of changes are to things that would not affact my list building.

You know, the changes are really designed to affect your future purchases.

Crimson Devil wrote:At the next Gamesday, someone should ask Jervis why he hates Dark Angels.

He'll answer that he doesn't hate the Dark Angels because they got two 3rd Edition Codices plus the 4th/5th Edition Codex - he hates the Woofs so they'll never get an update to their mini-dex.

Nah, ask him why he hates Freebooters, Speed Freaks, Clan-themed armies, individual hive fleets, individual gaurd regiments, individual chaos legions, individual dark eldar cabals, tau septs etc etc etc.
If you don't like the Dark Angels dex, just use your friggin' models to play with the marine dex. The rest of use are able to manage with generic dexes and conversions, I don't know why marine players need someone to hold their hands.

Da Boss wrote:Nah, ask him why he hates Freebooters, Speed Freaks, Clan-themed armies, individual hive fleets, individual gaurd regiments, individual chaos legions, individual dark eldar cabals, tau septs etc etc etc.
If you don't like the Dark Angels dex, just use your friggin' models to play with the marine dex. The rest of use are able to manage with generic dexes and conversions, I don't know why marine players need someone to hold their hands.

"Thats right, and you ork players that complained about lack of a shooting game before the current codex came out should've been using your ork models and the TAU EMPIRE codex the whole time."

....maybe people want to be loyal to their codex army book there genius. If you play Dark Angels you DONT WANT to use the Vanilla book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yup. 90 points for Vet + 4 SM.

Now i dont post much here anymore, but I had to throw in on this issue. That 90 points right there is exactly what you would pay for a Sgt with Term Honors, now the decision is just made for you. You are paying 18 points for the first 5 marines, and then 15 for each marine after that. For 180-190 Points you can get a 10 man Tact squad with a SW/HW and a Sgt with Pweapon&melta or Fist. I play BA so I cant tell you how DA does it, but for that same Squad I am paying 180 for the BASE squad, no wizbangs and gizmo's, just a sgt with CCW/BP and 9 Bolter marines. For the sake of arguement say it is a Missile Launcher and Melta Gun for both units, and a Fist for the Sgt. New Marines will be paying 190 points and BA will be paying 225. A 35 point differential for the same exact squad?

BA/DA Wont get an upgrade when the new dex comes out, and my Furioso Dread will just take up space, as will my baal pred. By making 4.5ed codex and not back tracking and fixing them, they will be shunning a very devoted section of gamers. As previous posters have said they are longtime players and with the new codex they will still keep the marines, the color schemes, the pride in their army, but they will call it Codex Marines that look like DA/BA. There is something wrong with that.

Da Boss wrote:Nah, ask him why he hates Freebooters, Speed Freaks, Clan-themed armies, individual hive fleets, individual gaurd regiments, individual chaos legions, individual dark eldar cabals, tau septs etc etc etc.
If you don't like the Dark Angels dex, just use your friggin' models to play with the marine dex. The rest of use are able to manage with generic dexes and conversions, I don't know why marine players need someone to hold their hands.

Good for you. I don't play Dark Angels.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Crimson Devil wrote:At the next Gamesday, someone should ask Jervis why he hates Dark Angels.

He'll answer that he doesn't hate the Dark Angels because they got two 3rd Edition Codices plus the 4th/5th Edition Codex - he hates the Woofs so they'll never get an update to their mini-dex.

Only if he wants to eat a frost blade.

I would be very happy with a WD codex or fold us into the new SM codex. As long as he stops leaving us hanging.

Deadshane1 wrote:Dont count on getting the new vehicles, they have NEVER retconned to add units into a previously released codex, regardless of how much sense it would make.

Uhh... from the recent Space Wolves FAQ:

Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options available to these units in a Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves.

I know GW can be mind-bogglingly incompetent at times, but really, they knew enough to throw that into the SW FAQ to bring it in line with the current SM codex. Why wouldn't they just throw the same thing into the DA FAQ when the shiny new SM codex hits? Aside from continuing the fine tradition of boning DAs, I mean.

Deadshane1 wrote:....maybe people want to be loyal to their codex army book there genius. If you play Dark Angels you DONT WANT to use the Vanilla book.

Well, I play Chaos and I don't want to use the Vanilla book so I'm right there with ya buddy.

Crimson Devil: I should have been more specific. The you in the post was not actually aimed at you.

Deadshane1: Sorry, but I don't see it as the same thing.
Tau is Tau, orks is orks, marines is marines. The sub dexes are one of the worst things about 40K.
Either do them for everyone, or do them for no one.

Da Boss wrote:The sub dexes are one of the worst things about 40K.
Either do them for everyone, or do them for no one.

Agreed. Making subchapters was a really dumb idea (gamewise).

Sadly its been stated that if you get a codex once, you will forever get a codex.

Its a real shame they didnt take this opportunity to wrap all chapters up into one codex. They could have done it last edition, they could have done it this edition too.

Dark Angels have always gotten short shift from GW they seem to want them to fade into the background but the fanatical players like myself keep the rock alive

Da Boss wrote:
Deadshane1: Sorry, but I don't see it as the same thing.
Tau is Tau, orks is orks, marines is marines. The sub dexes are one of the worst things about 40K.
Either do them for everyone, or do them for no one.

Sorry, but you see, actually it is EXACTLY the same thing.

It's a well known FACT that Dark Angels may be marines in fluff, but rules-wise, it is a 88 page stand alone army codex that has nothing at all to do with the Space Marine Codex....NOTHING. They are completely two different factions in the GAME. Perhaps they are both part of the Imperium in the fluff, but the armies are completely seperate entities.

Marines actually is NOT marines.

They may be similar enough to appear related. Enough to make a non-subchapter player think that you can use the Marine codex and be happy. Enough to make a Dark Angel player feel insulted. They're still different stand alone books though, as surely as Tau is different from chaos daemons.

When I'm playing in a tournement, you'll see my dark angels arrayed against you. When you say something like "WTF?" after my chapter master drops a orbital strike on you and you didnt expect my "Veteran Squad" to hit you with STR 6, you'll be totally justified. Same as when your Shoota boyz have range 30" STR 5 rapid fire weapons(FW's) and your MegaNobz with Turboboostaz can do pop-up attacks (crisis suits). Exactly the same.

Actually deadshane, a marine is a marine is a marine.

Dark angels aren't so special that they are no longer marines. They are still marines with a ever so light difference in rules. Stats are basically identical, etc. They all get ATSKNF etc. In fact, I would say DA resemble vanilla marines more than they ever have in the past.

I understand upholding the right to get a separate codex, but when you get down to brass tacks, DA could easily be repped by about 2 pages of rules deviation from the main list, much like appeared in 3rd ed but without the seperate subcodex to apply them.

moosifer wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yup. 90 points for Vet + 4 SM.

That 90 points right there is exactly what you would pay for a Sgt with Term Honors, now the decision is just made for you.

New Marines will be paying 190 points and BA will be paying 225. A 35 point differential for the same exact squad?

Yup. Good call on GW's part, BTW.

Aside from the "FREE" Death Company Marine that the BA get, yeah. And that Death Company Marine is worth a good 25 points for his basic statline, so you're paying only 10 points for Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. We're supposed to be sympathetic to you for finally having to pay a semi-reasonable cost for your Death Company?



Boo hoo, cry me a river...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

moosifer wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yup. 90 points for Vet + 4 SM.

That 90 points right there is exactly what you would pay for a Sgt with Term Honors, now the decision is just made for you.

New Marines will be paying 190 points and BA will be paying 225. A 35 point differential for the same exact squad?

Yup. Good call on GW's part, BTW.

Aside from the "FREE" Death Company Marine that the BA get, yeah. And that Death Company Marine is worth a good 25 points for his basic statline, so you're paying only 10 points for Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. We're supposed to be sympathetic to you for finally having to pay a semi-reasonable cost for your Death Company?



Boo hoo, cry me a river...

Actually, I think this is one of the best parts of the codex. It's a great compromise between balaning their expendibility, and their utility.

Hellfury wrote:I understand upholding the right to get a separate codex, but when you get down to brass tacks, DA could easily be repped by about 2 pages of rules deviation from the main list, much like appeared in 3rd ed but without the seperate subcodex to apply them.

Frankly, the couple pages of rules that came out in 4E after the SM Codex came out to bring the DA in line with the Codex was quite possibly the most solid improvement to the DA in years - giving DW Terminators the opportunity to take Tank Hunters and Furious Charge made the list semi-competitive for a short while.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

moosifer wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yup. 90 points for Vet + 4 SM.

That 90 points right there is exactly what you would pay for a Sgt with Term Honors, now the decision is just made for you.

New Marines will be paying 190 points and BA will be paying 225. A 35 point differential for the same exact squad?

Yup. Good call on GW's part, BTW.

Aside from the "FREE" Death Company Marine that the BA get, yeah. And that Death Company Marine is worth a good 25 points for his basic statline, so you're paying only 10 points for Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. We're supposed to be sympathetic to you for finally having to pay a semi-reasonable cost for your Death Company?



Boo hoo, cry me a river...

So a marine with a CCW/BP and 2 base attacks is worth 25 points? I agree that probably 30 of the 35 points is justified for the death company (which is not free) but where do those extra 5 points go? Vanilla Marines should be equal to a Dark Angel should be equal to a Blood Angel should be equal to a Black Templar, etc...

Don't cry for me, I will do fine I built an army that can be anything, but cry for the folks who truely believed that GW could balance out the sub dex's with the main dex's only to find out the armies they paid and played for amount to nothing in the face of ultraweenies..

Death By Monkeys wrote:

Hellfury wrote:I understand upholding the right to get a separate codex, but when you get down to brass tacks, DA could easily be repped by about 2 pages of rules deviation from the main list, much like appeared in 3rd ed but without the separate subcodex to apply them.

Frankly, the couple pages of rules that came out in 4E after the SM Codex came out to bring the DA in line with the Codex was quite possibly the most solid improvement to the DA in years - giving DW Terminators the opportunity to take Tank Hunters and Furious Charge made the list semi-competitive for a short while.

Agreed. I was sad to see the list go downhill when the newest DA codex was printed. A simple mod to the base set of rules, and its go time from there.

If only I could convince people to allow me to play my deathwing that way still, I would be a happy bunny.

Its one reason why I still have that FAQ and why I will continue to retain the 4th ed SM codex.

Though furious charge is worthless on termies now that you can no longer "switch off" the powerfists in 5th ed. It makes it impossible to charge @ initiative 5 and str 5.

Hellfury wrote:Actually deadshane, a marine is a marine is a marine.

Dark angels aren't so special that they are no longer marines. They are still marines with a ever so light difference in rules. Stats are basically identical, etc. They all get ATSKNF etc. In fact, I would say DA resemble vanilla marines more than they ever have in the past.

I understand upholding the right to get a separate codex, but when you get down to brass tacks, DA could easily be repped by about 2 pages of rules deviation from the main list, much like appeared in 3rd ed but without the seperate subcodex to apply them.

Great, then we can scrap the entire chaos space marine book as well and just call the new Codex Space Marines? Thats bull man, and you know it...

Ratbarf wrote:Thats bull man, and you know it...

No, it isn't bull. Its the plain truth.

But really thats neither here nor there.

GW has stated that if a army has a codex that it will forever get a codex, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

It is rather odd how people want what the new space marine codex gets, yet they cannot fathom considering themselves space marines.

Hellfury wrote:

Ratbarf wrote:Thats bull man, and you know it...

No, it isn't bull. Its the plain truth.

But really thats neither here nor there.

GW has stated that if a army has a codex that it will forever get a codex, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

It is rather odd how people want what the new space marine codex gets, yet they cannot fathom considering themselves space marines.

Its not that we are not space marines... after all BA, DA, and SW are in fact space marines. However BA and SW have unique geneseeds that alter the combat "doctrines" of the chapter organization, and still use standard issue imperial space marine equipment. I think that is what the issue is, why should the new Death wind launcher be heavy 2 and mine still heavy 1? Why should my tech marines not have access to the big cannon? Why should my landraiders only carry 10 (5) when the new ones are 12 (6)? Now keep in mind this can be easily fixed if they just had 1 extra line in that codex:
All loyalist space marine chapters may use the new landraider/drop pod/landspeeder/wargear profiles that parallels (shares a name) with their current version.

moosifer wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:that Death Company Marine is worth a good 25 points for his basic statline, so you're paying only 10 points for Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. We're supposed to be sympathetic to you for finally having to pay a semi-reasonable cost for your Death Company?



Boo hoo, cry me a river...

So a marine with a CCW/BP and 2 base attacks is worth 25 points? I agree that probably 30 of the 35 points is justified for the death company (which is not free) but where do those extra 5 points go? Vanilla Marines should be equal to a Dark Angel should be equal to a Blood Angel should be equal to a Black Templar, etc...

Don't cry for me, I will do fine I built an army that can be anything, but cry for the folks who truely believed that GW could balance out the sub dex's with the main dex's only to find out the armies they paid and played for amount to nothing in the face of ultraweenies..

No, a Marine with BP&CCW isn't worth 25 pts. He doesn't have a Jump Pack, for starters, and that's worth 7 points on a standard Assault Marine. Then you've got the extra Ld, which is worth a point. And the extra Attack, with is another 2 points.

Thus, a Veteran Assault Marine with A2 Ld9 BP&CCW is worth 25 pts.

The Death Company get 4 USRs for 10 points. And they're all good USRs for Assault: Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. Under Traits / Veteran Skills, USRs are worth at least 3 pts each. So that bundle of USRs is nominally worth at least 12 points. Only paying 10 pts for them is a bargain.

Suck it up and don't complain.

Hellfury wrote:GW has stated that if a army has a codex that it will forever get a codex, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

OTOH, if your WFB army had an Army Book, all bets are off.

At least, that's how it appears to us Dogs of War players...

Hellfury wrote:GW has stated that if a army has a codex that it will forever get a codex, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

Heh. What they don't say is how long it might be between codices (DE and SW, looking at you, kids) or whether your codex might be rolled into someone else's (that's you, SoB). So, while it's true that Squats may never get another codex because they never had one to begin with, if GW so chose, they could choose to never update, say, the DE codex. They'd have to FAQ it with every new edition of the game to make sure it's tourney legal, but eventually, the folks playing the army would just dwindle down to a pathetic few - just like their friends, the Squat players. I'm not arguing with you, Hellfury, just pointing out that GW has the leeway to manipulate this statement to do a lot of things.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:GW has stated that if a army has a codex that it will forever get a codex, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

OTOH, if your WFB army had an Army Book, all bets are off.

At least, that's how it appears to us Dogs of War players...

There's a very distinct difference between the two. A 40k army list is a "codex", while a WHFB list is an "army book". See, so if you had a 40k army that had an army book, GW would be well within their rights to never make another codex for that army. And vice versa, if you had a WHFB army with a codex, you'd be perfectly safe because you'd have GW's guarantee on it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

moosifer wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:that Death Company Marine is worth a good 25 points for his basic statline, so you're paying only 10 points for Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. We're supposed to be sympathetic to you for finally having to pay a semi-reasonable cost for your Death Company?



Boo hoo, cry me a river...

So a marine with a CCW/BP and 2 base attacks is worth 25 points? I agree that probably 30 of the 35 points is justified for the death company (which is not free) but where do those extra 5 points go? Vanilla Marines should be equal to a Dark Angel should be equal to a Blood Angel should be equal to a Black Templar, etc...

Don't cry for me, I will do fine I built an army that can be anything, but cry for the folks who truely believed that GW could balance out the sub dex's with the main dex's only to find out the armies they paid and played for amount to nothing in the face of ultraweenies..

No, a Marine with BP&CCW isn't worth 25 pts. He doesn't have a Jump Pack, for starters, and that's worth 7 points on a standard Assault Marine. Then you've got the extra Ld, which is worth a point. And the extra Attack, with is another 2 points.

Thus, a Veteran Assault Marine with A2 Ld9 BP&CCW is worth 25 pts.

The Death Company get 4 USRs for 10 points. And they're all good USRs for Assault: Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. Under Traits / Veteran Skills, USRs are worth at least 3 pts each. So that bundle of USRs is nominally worth at least 12 points. Only paying 10 pts for them is a bargain.

Suck it up and don't complain.

Death Company gets jump packs for free? Did I create the part in my head where it costs 5 points a model for the entire unit to get jump packs?

So you are justifying 15 extra points for FNP/Rending/FC/Fearless/Ld9. Please dont forget Black Rage which means you NEED a chaplain or you have a squad that you cannot control. And ldr9 on a fearless unit isnt that big a deal because you probably pay 85 points for a Captain with goodies and Combat Tactics to get a Universal Leadership of 10.

One glaring difference between the two codicies is that you have combat tactics which in of itself is awesome, but you have the ability to mix and match diff characters to get the army the way you want it. BA/DA do NOT get this and this in of itself is a huge difference maker.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:GW has stated that if a army has a codex that it will forever get a codex, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

OTOH, if your WFB army had an Army Book, all bets are off.

At least, that's how it appears to us Dogs of War players...

There's a very distinct difference between the two. A 40k army list is a "codex", while a WHFB list is an "army book". See, so if you had a 40k army that had an army book, GW would be well within their rights to never make another codex for that army. And vice versa, if you had a WHFB army with a codex, you'd be perfectly safe because you'd have GW's guarantee on it.

Except that GW said that they were going to maintian WFB armies with Army Books, and they've stopped support for Dogs of War, despite the fact that we had a "proper" Army Book back in 5th Edition.

It'd be as if GW simply told the Space Wolf players that they couldn't field their armies any more because they don't have a proper Codex, or the Dark Eldar are too old.

Oh, wait...

moosifer wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:No, a Marine with BP&CCW isn't worth 25 pts. He doesn't have a Jump Pack, for starters, and that's worth 7 points on a standard Assault Marine. Then you've got the extra Ld, which is worth a point. And the extra Attack, with is another 2 points.

Thus, a Veteran Assault Marine with A2 Ld9 BP&CCW is worth 25 pts.

The Death Company get 4 USRs for 10 points. And they're all good USRs for Assault: Fearless, FNP, Rending, and Furious Charge. Under Traits / Veteran Skills, USRs are worth at least 3 pts each. So that bundle of USRs is nominally worth at least 12 points. Only paying 10 pts for them is a bargain.

Suck it up and don't complain.

Death Company gets jump packs for free? Did I create the part in my head where it costs 5 points a model for the entire unit to get jump packs?

So you are justifying 15 extra points for FNP/Rending/FC/Fearless/Ld9. Please dont forget Black Rage which means you NEED a chaplain or you have a squad that you cannot control. And ldr9 on a fearless unit isnt that big a deal because you probably pay 85 points for a Captain with goodies and Combat Tactics to get a Universal Leadership of 10.

One glaring difference between the two codicies is that you have combat tactics which in of itself is awesome, but you have the ability to mix and match diff characters to get the army the way you want it. BA/DA do NOT get this and this in of itself is a huge difference maker.

Oh noes, your stupidly broken Death Company might be overpriced by as much as 5 pts, and an entire unit might be overpriced by as much as 25 pts.

To which, I say "so what?"

Look at Imperial Guard. A *single* Imperial Guard Chimera is overpriced by more than 40 pts. Imperial Guard Advisors are at least 10 points overpriced. Imperial Guard Ogryns are at least 5 pts overpriced. And most importantly, the basic *mandatory* Troops squad of Guardsmen is at least 10 pts overpriced (even moreso if they take a Lascannon) and 2 such squads are *mandatory* in each basic Platoon.

I did a very *generous* cost breakdown. Others can easily conclude that the USRs are actually fairly priced at 15 pts for the lot. And those are very good USRs that all work together - they have synergy such that they amplify each other. Finally, Black Rage is NOT a liability that's worth anything, because you'd take Chaplain Lemartes *anyways*.

The idea that a Blud Angelz player would whine over paying a fair price for their Death Company, and this is in a thread whereby other MEQs are getting new toys, it strikes me as exceptionally childish. I definitely see Yaks' wisdom in "Friends don't let friends start MEQ armies".

Quite frankly, if you don't like Blood Angels, repaint their shoulderpads and call them something else. It's not like you need to buy all-new models to switch the army around...