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I have a few ideas, but I wanted to see what others thought before I get too far into my own scheming.

For example, my sternguard will be thousand sons, and I'll probably use the character that makes them scoring. Storm Shield Termis seem like they would be fluffy for Tsons as well. Legion of the Damned sound like a nurgle squad, etc. What other parallels can you you draw? I am thinking mostly of how to use things to represent a Tsons army, but a few units mixed in from other marks won't be totally amiss.

So, what other ideas do you dakkites have that might get me rolling?

Meph

Um, Codex: Chaos Space Marines?

you wouldnt be able to play that way a t a tourney, but I say as long as whoever you play doesnt care, go for it man. after i read the CSM codex i had enough of it and went to SM rules as well. now i play "renegades" but still I can use SM codex. sides why wouldnt you want to use it? the new SM codex is FULL of awesomeness..... now that i think of it you CAN say that it was a thousand sons legion that wanted to join the Imperium once again. then i think you could legally use the rules. anywho good luck man!

Honestly it just sounds lame.

The Chaos codex is fine, at least for Thousand Sons.

i do agree with you MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy on the TS army.
if you wanted to be chaosy looking yet still use SM rules Mephistoles1, you should just make up your own renegade army, that looks like TS i guess. really building a TS army but using SM codex does sound a bit lame the more i think about it

I'm going to side with some of the others here, the tzeentch marines and items are all pretty powerful and fluffy. Redoing them in the space marine book is a pretty big stretch and most people will probably just think you are powergaming.

Ok a couple of clarifications:

This is only for fun, not for tourneys. I already have fully painted and tricked out tourney armies for Slaanesh Chaos with khorne elements, eldar, tau and (soon to be fully painted) orcs. I am looking to add units to my chaos army but also play around with the new marine dex. Most of the units from any SM army that I do will transfer directly into a regular chaos codex army(and I love modeling so a few models like vehicles not available in chaos are ok too).

Right now I have Zilch in the way of Thousand sons and Nurgle in my chaos army and building a just for fun marine army based on Tsons would be a good motivator to get to painting tsons terms and marines + extras. I magnetize everything, so my termies and any other units that have non dual purpose wargear will be able to swap weapon arms and other options as well.

I do appreciate your feedback so far though ... if everyone is going to think I'm a git when I put this down and start explaining then I'd rather know about it now instead of 1500 points of models into the project. If this idea won't fly then I will just work on nice looking tzeench additions to my chaos army.


One other thing to keep in mind is that while converted to look chaosy, everything will be clearly armed as the regular space marine units. The only explanation it will need is "This is a Pedro Kantor Space Marine list with a Thousand Sons theme and paint job."

Thanks again for feedback and any further comments or ideas are also welcome.

Meph

the new Marine codex is spot on for Iron Warriors..... (Warsmiths anyone?)

Except for the part where you can't take obliterators. I don't know if the new marine dex uses the ally rules so I doubt you can use basilisks, and you can't get siege specialists on everyone. But yes, you can get servo arms, and if servo arms = iron warriors then there you are.

Taking Sicarius would get you tank hunters on one squad, add tech marines, and multiple vindicators or whirlwinds would make for a bombarding and heavy weapon army, along with Ironclad dreadnaughts. May not be the most effective force ever, but would fit the iron Warriors theme.

interesting Idea Belphego.

A pre heresy army prior to the council of Nikea would be an interesting project.

G

GBF: I'm not Familiar with the council of Nikea, and google couldn't enlighten me(not anything relating to 40k anyway). Is that pre-heresy thousand sons? I considered doing ph Tsons but I really like the blue and gold scheme and they were red pre-heresy. I have seen some great ph Tsons online done by some master painters though and they rock.

Meph

You could do a heresy era T-sons army if you want to go blue and gold. They would be early Chaos just starting to switch their appearance.

The council of Nikea (spelling?) is when the Emperor declared no more psykers in the Legions... strangely enough very similar name to the First Council of Nicaea.

G

Here is a google link with some references to the council of Nikea for you:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=council+of+nikea+%2B+40k&btnG=Search

G

Thanks for the info/link. That is the general idea. I am not using any Tsons mini's(no egyption theme). All regular marines and chaos figs pinted in Tsons colors so a heresy era army sounds about right. I plan to do some(or a lot if I like it) scrolls, books and such, and I am thinking about putting spell/glyph writing on their armor to show thier love of sorcery.

Meph

...During the heresey, the thousand sons were the original red and white colours. It was after, when they fled into the eye, and had been there for a century or so, that they began to mutate and the rubric was unleashed, creating the headdresses and blue yellow and gold colours of the legion today.

If you want preheresy/ heresey era, then theyre red and white.

Also, ph34r, obliterators do not an iron warriors army make. Iron warriors were iron warriors way before obbies appeared. The thing that makes marines iron warriors perfect is the 'fortification' rule. as well as a tank commander, ordnance, the thunderfire etc. hell, even the chapter masters orbital bombardment works.

just do a little retconn for the T Sons... regarding their color scheme. The blue/gold is very nice.

G

History does tend to repeat itself, and 10,000 years is a long time with no major rebellion ... perhaps this will be a sign that mainstream legions are once again falling to the ruinous powers ... Or maybe tzeench has it in some greater plan that some of his followers get new tech for some secret plan.

Anyway ... I finished a test model ... this is my first attempt at lining ... I also need to work on blending ... I normally base wash dry brush. Produces nice results, but this army is also a chance to try some painting techniques that I have not used much before. Up close he is a little rough, but arms length the blemishes fade and he looks pretty decent on the table.

Meph

Shummy wrote:most people will probably just think you are powergaming.

New Marine Codex makes better Sorcerers too. Free powers and they can cast two of them!

Belphegor wrote:the new Marine codex is spot on for Iron Warriors..... (Warsmiths anyone?)

And Night Lords and Black Legion and...

Mephistoles1 wrote:Using New Marine dex to do Thousand Sons

Truth be told, I actually agree with many of the original posters in saying that the 'Chaos' Codex, as pathetic as it is, is actually a better choice for 1KSons than the new Marine 'Dex. The new Marine 'Dex does a lot of older Chaos lists better than the 'Chaos' Codex could ever hope to do, but I don't think that 1KSons are one of them.

Another thing to mention, and this comes from your OP, you mentioned Legion of the Damned as Nurgle Marines. Ok, I can see the comparisons, no problems there, but as you said this army is just for fun an flavour (which I suppose answers why you chose the Marine 'Dex, as the 'Chaos' Codex has no flavour and certainly isn't fun), then it would be a bad idea to include a Nurgle Squad in a Tzeentchian army. They're mortal (or immortal really) enemies, and would not ally.

BYE

then it would be a bad idea to include a Nurgle Squad in a Tzeentchian army. They're mortal (or immortal really) enemies, and would not ally.

That was eons ago, when Chaos still had a fluff rather than a collection of power gaming rules.

M.

About nurgle: I was just throwing that out there really to give an example of the kind of comparisons I was looking for.

My thoughts are still forming up and when I started this I wasn't really locked in on Tsons, even though that was the way I was leaning at the time. I am now fully committed to the Tsons ... So I won't be dropping nurlge in there.

Had I gone for a Pre-heresy or heresy era red Tsons army I was going to convert Marneus into Magnus the red, etc. I really don't know too much about Tsons fluff besides what is in the last two dexes, that's why I wanted to get anyone elses ideas about possible parallels.

I agree Tsons arn't that bad in the chaos dex ... but that would mean duplicating all the other things I use in choas .. Demon princes, oblits, the same psycic powers I use now, etc. I want a shooty tsons army and I think the marine codex will let me represent that fairly well.


Meph

Miguelsan wrote:That was eons ago, when Chaos still had a fluff rather than a collection of power gaming rules.

Some of us still hold the fluff as Law and refuce to acknowledge that Khornate armies led by Lash Princes even exist.

BYE

Mephistoles1 wrote:Had I gone for a Pre-heresy or heresy era red Tsons army I was going to convert Marneus into Magnus the red, etc. I really don't know too much about Tsons fluff besides what is in the last two dexes, that's why I wanted to get anyone elses ideas about possible parallels.

You know as much as any of us do. You could take a look through Wikipediea to find extra info, or the Lexicanium (or whatever its called, which is a dedicated 40K Wiki).

But generally the 1KSons are:

1. Loyalist Chapter, original colour Red.
2. Primarch was Magnus the Red, a Marine Cyclops.
3. They dabbled in the arts of psychic energy, the Emperor got mad and told them to stop.
4. Horus decided he wanted to Be the Man for a chance, so turned agaisnt the Space Emperor.
5. Magnus tried to warn the Space Emperor, but used a Reverse Charge Psychic Call rather than telling him in person, so the Space Emperor set his Guard Dogs, the Space Puppies, to wipe them out.
6. With little choice but to turn against the Space Emperor and join Horus, Magnus turned his legion to the only being that would accept their quest for knoweldge - Tzeentch.
7. Heresy happens. Horus lags out and drops from the server. Rest of his clan quits the field.
8. Magnus sets up shop on a planet in the EoT.
9. All the 1Ksons Marines start getting all mutated - they forgot that Tzeentch is the Chaos God of Magic and Change. That means everything changes, all the time. You don't get a choice in the matter.
10. Ahriman, the Chief Librarian of the 1KSons, says STFU to Tzeentch and casts a spell to stop the change.
11. It works, kinda, and kills all the non Sorcerers in the Legion, turning them into Ghosts in the Shell.
12. Magnus kick-bans Ahriman, so Ahriman takes his followers to a different server.
11. For a while they could shrug off heavy bolters.
12. Then they got a second wound, and suddenly had a whole lot going for them.
13. Then they lose their second wound, but got cool bolters.
14. Then terrain throughout the galaxy got stronger overnight, so their bolters weren't as useful.

Anything more specific will come with the Horus Heresy books.

BYE

I saw you buying more plastic crack at FLGS for this army! Et tu Mepjistoles1? Seems everyone in the area is switching to the new marine dex. Well if this army ends up with your usual attention to detail I will look forward to Chaos without the tentacles. Also I really doubt anyone in the area will care about the Chaos/Loyalist list.

Mephistoles1 wrote:I am now fully committed to the Tsons

I agree Tsons arn't that bad in the chaos dex ...

but that would mean duplicating all the other things I use in choas .. Demon princes, oblits, the same psycic powers I use now, etc. I want a shooty tsons army and I think the marine codex will let me represent that fairly well.

Good. Play a pure kSons / MoT army.

Actually kSons are probably the worst army you could possibly choose from a power perspective. Oooh... AP3 Bolters, but everybody gets Sv4+ cover. Oohhh.... Inv save just like everybody else. Mandatory Socrceror points sink in Troops. Seriously, as an army, kSons are weak.

There is *NO* reason to duplicate any of the other things you use in your other Chaos. Particularly if you're doing this for variety's sake. Take a Sorceror and a Lord instead of Daemon Princes. Take Defilers instead of Obits. Take *different* powers. Take lesser Daemons. Take a Spawn. And a Dreadnought. Or two (they're just really big Rubic Marines). Mix it up and just do take stuff because you can, and because it's different.

And then, don't be surprised when your Tzeentch / random army gets uber-buffed for 6th Edition ...
____

Anyhow, if I were making a Tzeentch kSons army, for fun, Fluffy play, I'd take something like this:

HQ
- MoT Lord w/ Daemon Weapon
- MoT Sorceror w/ Gift of Chaos & Bolt of Change on Disc of Tzeentch, Personal Icon

Elite
- Dreadnought w/ 2 DNCCWs
- Champ & 9 Termies w/ 2 HFs
- 9 MoT Possessed in Rhino

Troops
- Sorceror w/ 8 kSons in Rhino
- Sorceror w/ 8 kSons in Rhino
- 9 generic Lesser Daemons
- 9 generic Lesser Daemons

Fast
- 1 Spawn

Heavy
- Defiler w/ 2 DNCCWs
- Defiler w/ 2 DNCCWs
- Defiler w/ 2 DNCCWs

JohnHwangDD wrote:Good. Play a pure kSons / MoT army.

Hey, here's a great idea DD:

How 'bout you let him do what he wants to do with his army.

Outlandish concept I know, but the you'll eventually get used to the idea that not everyone in the world sees it how you do.

BYE

John: I could actually win with the list you posted. Mostly from my opponent laughing so hard that I actually paid points for a spawn ...

Ok, Seriously now. I do appreciate your advice and feedback. I intend to play the chaos side of this army as well and I will use both competitive and fluffy builds. However, I am really liking the idea of doing a few units that chaos can't have as tzeench ... Like attack bikes. Yummy tzeench attack bikes. I'm sold on this project.

Commisar00: Yeah, I don't know what an army will be like without all the tenticles ... I'll find a way to work a few in somewhere ... I will still be playing my other lists for a while ... I hate marine on marine action so I will build this for a while and when the next best new and shiny codex comes out I will whip out these guys for some games.

HBMC: Thanks for the summary and the support. I caught myself doing the HMBC before I went back to check spelling. Maybe Half Marneus Brother Calgar? In regards to the fluff, I thought maybe I was just missing something, with that being all that has been officially done with tzeench fluff and story wise. Seems like a lit of wasted potential. Maybe the (if/when/ etc disclaimer) Legions codex will flesh things out a little bit.

Meph

KingCracker wrote:you wouldnt be able to play that way a t a tourney, but I say as long as whoever you play doesnt care, go for it man. after i read the CSM codex i had enough of it and went to SM rules as well. now i play "renegades" but still I can use SM codex. sides why wouldnt you want to use it? the new SM codex is FULL of awesomeness..... now that i think of it you CAN say that it was a thousand sons legion that wanted to join the Imperium once again. then i think you could legally use the rules. anywho good luck man!

Sure you can. As long as the little buggers are WYSIWYG then its just one of the half of armies there. His will be purply/blue marines vs. blue marines. Indeed if I were doing it over, I'd be sorely tempted to use the minis from the 1,000 bast rd sons of who es myself for loyalists. I love their look.

I think you need to express what your vision is for your list first. What are the characteristics you're looking to portray?

My vision is still forming up but I am going to emphasize the magic aspect of tzeench. Lots of scrolls,
spellwork and lettering on their armor, etc. I plan to use magical flames to counter the deep blues and compliment the gold trim. Fairly light on mutations, but enough of them that they don't look out of place when they occur. I think at first I will emphasize invul saves (termies, LotD, etc) to run them like the hard to kill tszeench of last edition, Mostly to do cinematic modeling with fewer points wise expensive models.


Example: Attack bike with multi melta: I will leave the multi melta on there for WYSIWYG but the "gunner" will be a sorcerer rearing back to throw a fireball.



Meph

Mephistoles1 wrote:John: I could actually win with the list you posted. Mostly from my opponent laughing so hard that I actually paid points for a spawn ...

Ok, Seriously now. I do appreciate your advice and feedback. I intend to play the chaos side of this army as well and I will use both competitive and fluffy builds. However, I am really liking the idea of doing a few units that chaos can't have as tzeench ... Like attack bikes. Yummy tzeench attack bikes. I'm sold on this project.

My vision is still forming up but I am going to emphasize the magic aspect of tzeench. Lots of scrolls, spellwork and lettering on their armor, etc. I plan to use magical flames to counter the deep blues and compliment the gold trim. Fairly light on mutations, but enough of them that they don't look out of place when they occur. I think at first I will emphasize invul saves (termies, LotD, etc) to run them like the hard to kill tszeench of last edition, Mostly to do cinematic modeling with fewer points wise expensive models.


Example: Attack bike with multi melta: I will leave the multi melta on there for WYSIWYG but the "gunner" will be a sorcerer rearing back to throw a fireball.

Yeah, in friendly gaming, something like that list should be fine.

Consider blue flames - they look great!

BTW, how about Attack Bike = Sorceror & Thrall on Large Disk of Tzeentch?