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This came up in a game. I posted on DannyInternet's blog about it, and he and stelek opined that during firefrenzy, the dreadnought fires on the closest visible unit in line of sight, which they took to mean whatever is within the 45 degree firing arc of the dreadnought's weapons. This allowed him to fire on a battlewagon across the table. I contested that the dread should have fired on another dreadnought to the model's immediate left. It didn't really effect the game, but I still think that it's an abuse of the line of sight rules.

I'll just cut/paste the relevant info from the two threads. Here's a link to stelek's post. I'd like to have the community here weigh in.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/die-horse-die.html

Danny:

With regard to the Dreadnought, there is a big difference between what it can shoot at normally and what is within its line of sight.

The rules say that it must pivot on the spot to the nearest visible unit, so what is visible must be assessed before turning. In order to determine if a unit is visible you refer to the model’s line of sight. The rules for vehicles and line of sight are explicit in that they are traced from the mounting down the barrel of the weapon. Weapons on a Dreadnought are fixed and therefore only have a 45 degree sight arc. If a model is outside of that arc it is not visible to the Dreadnought and therefore it is not an eligible target for Fire Frenzy.

Me:

I didn’t really care during the game, but I think you’re confusing what’s in the dreadnought’s line of sight with what’s in it’s firing arc.

I see nothing about a “45 sight arc”. The guns have a 45 degree *swivel* arc (and a mobile dread has a 360 swivel arc for its torso) but as far as I can tell, all models have a 360 sight arc. There are no rules to support the idea that the 45 degree swivel arc on the guns somehow equates with a 45 degree line of sight arc for a non-pivoting dread.

By “visible”, the chaos book refers to models not being fully obscured by terrain. It’s not like the dreadnought “forgets” that there’s closer dudes to spaz out on behind him or something. Maybe we should just post this on dakka?

Danny:

It should be noted that Yakface is completely incorrect in his first part of the assessment. He notes that checking line of sight before selecting a target is breaking the rules. The rules for LOS are quite clear in that you check line of sight BEFORE selecting a target, not after:

Page 16:
“In order to select an enemy
unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit
must have line of sight to at least one model in the
target unit. If no models have line of sight then a
different target must be chosen.”

No rule is broken and this is indeed the correct way to play it. While Yakface is often correct, he also makes mistakes. It’s important to verify any YMDC assertion that doesn’t come with direct quote from the rules.

With regards to the second (incorrect) way to play it, this is based on a mis-reading of the rules. Codex rules trump rulebook rules, period. The codex tells you to select a visible target. Then you pivot on the spot. Then you fire. If you bring the Walker rules for shooting into the mix then note that they are prefaced with “When firing a walker’s weapons…”. By the time you are firing you are already pivoted to face the target which has already been selected via the Fire Frenzy rules.

Walkers don’t have special line of sight, they have special rules for changing facing during the shooting phase, however this is entirely irrelevant because normal target selection for the Dreadnought is overridden by the Fire Frenzy rule.

Again, the only point of contention is the meaning of the word “visible”. I think it’s pretty obvious that it means “visible to the Dreadnought” and therefore represents line of sight, but it could be read as anything anything that is not invisible, and therefore every unit on the board (hell, even on the board next to yours) is fair game. Clearly, that’s a little silly.

And so on. Eventually, stelek barges in with a link to a google doc that summarizes his view (and presumably danny's, although dan please correct me if I'm wrong). Here's a link.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Acmya8cz5UmSZGNoeG5uNGpfMmRyN2M3Z2Nr&hl=en

I'm also posting this because it dovetails with the discussion on unit/model line of sight that came up in another thread. I'm still not convinced a dreadnought can ignore a dude to its immediate right and firefrenzy on whatever is in the narrow range of its mounted weapons. For all his swagger, condescension, and superiority, stelek hasn't convinced me that he actually knows the rules.


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Oh wow, I just took a look at the actual wording in the codex. I didn't realize the instructions themselves direct the player to pivot. I'm not sure how stelek reads "pivot on the spot toward the closest visible unit" and concludes that :

This does mean the Chaos player can choose to pivot away from his own units. Blame GW for this, not your opponent!

.

That's kind of idiotic. I guess he's just used to playing Stelekhammer, which would explain his ridiculous win/loss record and refusal to play in national tournaments. But hey, the truth hurts.

Danny did a good job of spelling it out.

You pivot to the closet visible unit.

Visible to a dreadnought is a 45 degree firing arc in front of each of its guns.

Tbh I have usually found stelek's rules lawyering to be spot on with RAW.
When it isn't he will usually tell you what a GT judge would most likely say.

Nothing ever tells you what is visible. Is it LoS? Is it what can be seen from a model's eyeview? Who knows. The true answer will never be revealed. I myself spin my Dreadnought to face the closest unit. Which is usually my poor, poor Defiler.

RustyKnight wrote:Nothing ever tells you what is visible. Is it LoS? Is it what can be seen from a model's eyeview? Who knows. The true answer will never be revealed. I myself spin my Dreadnought to face the closest unit. Which is usually my poor, poor Defiler.

Yep, that's how I see it. I was asked how it will be played at our 'ardboyz regional, by a player today. Spent a half hour re-reading the rules, and finally came up with the problem that 'Line of Sight' for a weapon, is different from 'visible' or what a model can see. Visible isn't spelled out in the book.

We'll be playing it that the dreadnaught has 360 degree 'vision', then pivots and points at the nearest target that isn't blocked by scenery, etc.

Visibility is defined:

Check Line of Sight & Pick a Target, The Shooting Phase, Rulebook, p.16 wrote:Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head, torso, legs and arms). Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner, or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are technically part of its body). In these cases, the model is not visible.

Visibility is thus a clear line of sight, and visibility is blocked with line of sight is blocked.

Vehicle line of sight is defined by their weapons. Dreadnought follow suite.

Therefore what is visible to them is whatever lies within the 45 degree arcs of their weapons.

In case of a Fire Frenzy, the Dreadnought pivots towards whatever is the closest unit within its 45 degree weapon arcs, and fires twice at it.

Interesting, Dreadnought arm weapons were treated as sponsons in 4th edition do that a Dreadnought could effectively fire its Twin-Lined Heavy Bolters sideways. I guess it's another legacy of 4th edition people haven't put away yet.

Nurglitch wrote:

Visibility is thus a clear line of sight, and visibility is blocked with line of sight is blocked.

Vehicle line of sight is defined by their weapons. Dreadnought follow suite.

The problem there is that the rules for Dreadnought line of sight require you to pivot the model to then draw LOS from the weapon mountings. So you can't determine visibility (aka LOS) without pivoting the Dreadnought to face its target and you can't find out its target for fire frenzy until you determine what is visible!

This is because the walker rules on page 72 of the rulebook tell you to pivot your model to face its target and THEN check LOS, while the main rules normally have you check LOS before declaring a target.

So ultimately we're left with a gunky mess of rules here that doesn't have a definitive answer.

IMHO, since you can't check for LOS on a Dreadnought without pivoting to face the target and then drawing LOS down the barrel of the weapon I think when dealing with Fire Frenzy you have to pivot the Dreadnought to face the closest target and then check to see if it is visible. If it is, then the Dread has to fire at it. If it isn't, then you have to pivot again and check LOS (visibility) to the next closest target, and so on, until you find the closest visible target.

Didn't we have a thread on this only a few days ago?

RAW states, in the shooting section, that a target is something to which you have line of sight, i.e. if you don't have line of sight to it, then it cannot possibly be a target for you to pivot to face. Yess, it's all messed up and almost certainly not RAI.

However, because in the case of FF we are dealing with a cross-patching of editions some compromise is needed to avoid a) overpowering or b) shafting CSM players.

I do like Yakface's option though.

yakface:

There is no problem. The Fire Frenzy rules require you to check range and line of sight from a pre-pivot position, and then pivot the Dreadnought and follow the normal shooting rules twice.

You check to see what's visible to the Dreadnought as it stands, then you check to see what's closest of what's visible, then you pivot the Dreadnought, and then you do the usual and check line of sight for each weapon and range and roll to hit and so on, twice.

The rules are clear, should you follow them carefully.

1. Fire Frenzy is determined at the start of the Chaos Space Marine players Movement phase.

2. Fire Frenzy is resolved at the beginning of the Shooting phase.

3. Determine visible units. Use the Dreadnought's weapon mounts to determine line of sight according to the Walker shooting rules.

4. Determine the closest of the visible units. This requires you to measure distances.

5. Pivot the Dreadnought so that it faces the closest visible unit.

6. Check range of weapons.

7. Fire all of its weapons at the target twice.

Notice the significant deviations from the normal Walker shooting rules.

1. Walker shooting is determined any time during the Shooting phase of the player's turn.

2. Walker shooting is resolved any time during the Shooting phase of the player's turn.

3. Select a target: a unit with at least one model within line of sight of one of the Dreadnought's weapons.

4. Pivot the walker so that a target could be within line of sight of all of its weapons.

4. Check range of weapons.

5. Fire weapons once.

So imagine that a Chaos Dreadnought, at the beginning of its player's Movement phase, flips out and goes into Fire Frenzy. There are five units visible to its Twin-Linked Bolters mounted on its left arm. The closest would have it pivot 20 degrees left, so the Dreadnought pivots 20 degree left, and checks range and line of sight for its weapons again, including a Plasma Cannon mounted on its right arm. However, due to the fact that the Dreadnought is taking cover from a building, the Plasma Cannon does not have a line of sight to the target unit. The Dreadnought gets either four or two shots with its bolters, and it's a wrap.

Nurglitch wrote:yakface:

There is no problem. .

You mean, there is no problem, as long as we agree with you and your arguements. Unfortunately, not all of us do. Ultimately, it's going to be played differently, in different places. As usual, checking with the local TO is advisable.

mikhaila:

No, I mean there is no problem in the rules. How people choose to play it is irrelevant to whether there is a problem in the rules such as Yakface describes.

I'm about to go buy a second dreadnought today (ironclad to convert it), and as much as Id simply love the dreadnought to just turn in its 45 degree fire arc so I could actually, you know, use long range guns, I cant see how it would work that way, RAW or RAI.

So until they change it, it's CCW and a flamethrower

Night Lords wrote:I'm about to go buy a second dreadnought today (ironclad to convert it), and as much as Id simply love the dreadnought to just turn in its 45 degree fire arc so I could actually, you know, use long range guns, I cant see how it would work that way, RAW or RAI.

So until they change it, it's CCW and a flamethrower

I would stick with the CCW's. The combined headache for you and your opponent while you actually try to explain how Fire Frenzy is good for you is not worth the extra hassle.

whitedragon wrote:

Night Lords wrote:I'm about to go buy a second dreadnought today (ironclad to convert it), and as much as Id simply love the dreadnought to just turn in its 45 degree fire arc so I could actually, you know, use long range guns, I cant see how it would work that way, RAW or RAI.

So until they change it, it's CCW and a flamethrower

I would stick with the CCW's. The combined headache for you and your opponent while you actually try to explain how Fire Frenzy is good for you is not worth the extra hassle.

The CCWs have bolters on them anyways, and you can replace one with a heavy flamer for a mere 5 points. So then youd have 2 CCWs, TL bolter, and a heavy flamer.

The Ironclad kit is an awesome kit for converting Chaos Dreadnoughts.

Yep, just opening it now. Comes with a lot of stuff, including an extra flamethrower (since Chaos cant take 2) i can put on my other dreadnought.


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Actually, can anyone tell me what the left arm weapon is in this pic:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/common/xLargeProductImage.jsp?mURL=/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m270239a_99120101076_Ironclad2_873x627.jpg

Im hoping its a CCW.

The left arm is the seismic hammer that ironclads come with.. IMO it looks kinda wierd

From the sprues I saw, you should have two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon arms, a right and a left, and one Seismic Hammer arm, left-handed. The left-handed Dreadnought Close Combat arm is what the Chainfist gets attached to.

Nurglitch wrote:yakface:

There is no problem. The Fire Frenzy rules require you to check range and line of sight from a pre-pivot position, and then pivot the Dreadnought and follow the normal shooting rules twice.

You check to see what's visible to the Dreadnought as it stands, then you check to see what's closest of what's visible, then you pivot the Dreadnought, and then you do the usual and check line of sight for each weapon and range and roll to hit and so on, twice.

The rules are clear, should you follow them carefully.

1. Fire Frenzy is determined at the start of the Chaos Space Marine players Movement phase.

2. Fire Frenzy is resolved at the beginning of the Shooting phase.

3. Determine visible units. Use the Dreadnought's weapon mounts to determine line of sight according to the Walker shooting rules.

And this is where I have issue with your flowchart. In order to determine visibility (assuming this means LOS) based on the walker rules you must FIRST have a target, THEN you must pivot the model and then finally you check LOS. This does not function with the flowchart you have provided.

Notice the significant deviations from the normal Walker shooting rules.

1. Walker shooting is determined any time during the Shooting phase of the player's turn.

2. Walker shooting is resolved any time during the Shooting phase of the player's turn.

3. Select a target: a unit with at least one model within line of sight of one of the Dreadnought's weapons.

Again, I disagree with your assessment. the rules for walkers state that you FIRST pivot the walker to face its target "and then" measure. . .line of sight from the weapon itself.


The walker rules are seemingly flawed in that they ask you to choose your target before determining if it is within line of sight.

I think your clarification is one simple way to modify the rules to make them work, but it is a modification of what the RAW say (as is the solution I suggested in my last post).

But Yakface: the chaos dreadnought fire frenzy rules are one of the few very specific sequences of events in the 40k rules... assuming that "visible" means "within LoS" then you only fire frenzy against things that are already in that front 45.

As far as that making fire frenzy "good" for chaos players... well it's still a loss of control over your vehicle. Maybe you don't want to shoot your multimelta twice against that ork horde... or maybe you really needed to assault that defiler instead of shooting it with 6 heavy bolter shots. It can situationally be a benefit, but the loss of control on 1/3 of your turns is still a huge liability.

willydstyle wrote:But Yakface: the chaos dreadnought fire frenzy rules are one of the few very specific sequences of events in the 40k rules... assuming that "visible" means "within LoS" then you only fire frenzy against things that are already in that front 45.

As far as that making fire frenzy "good" for chaos players... well it's still a loss of control over your vehicle. Maybe you don't want to shoot your multimelta twice against that ork horde... or maybe you really needed to assault that defiler instead of shooting it with 6 heavy bolter shots. It can situationally be a benefit, but the loss of control on 1/3 of your turns is still a huge liability.

But based on the walker rules, you don't check to see what is visible or not (within LOS) until after the walker has pivoted to face its target.


So to reiterate:

The Fire Frenzy rules tell us to essentially find the closest visible (we'll assume that means "within LOS") target.

So how do walkers determine whether something is within LOS or not?

Those rules (page 72) tell us: "When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 [degrees], like hull-mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles."


So again, you cannot determine what is within that front 45 degree 'LOS' of a dreadnought until after you follow the rules and pivot the model to face its target. . .which you can't do until you have a target. . .which with fire frenzy you cannot determine until you until you determine LOS. . .and on, and on, and on.

I think the problem you're encountering, Yakface, is that ordinarily you check line of sight and pick a target from what is available to an infantryman's 360 perspective, and that you're taking the Walker instructions to swivel and check line of sight/range as happening in order. Basically what the Walker shooting rules tell you is that they acquire targets like infantry, but they check range and line of sight like vehicles. So there's no infinite loop of if-thens. You just spin the Dreadnought until you've settled on a target that might be in range. The Fire Frenzy rules pick the target for you, from ordering pivot after the target selection.

The question I don't see anyone asking is why do Dreadnought need to pivot if the rules tell us that they acquire targets like Infantry? Firstly, and most obviously, it's because they take damage like vehicles, and secondly it's because you want to bring all of a Walker's weapons to bear and a target at the very edge of a Dreadnought's right arm weapon mount will not be in line of sight for its left arm weapon mount.

So anyhow:

Normal Shooting Order of Operations

1. Check line of sight & pick a target
2. Check Range
3. Roll to hit
4. Roll to wound
5. Take Saving Throws
6. Remove Casualties

Walker Shooting Order of Operations
1. Check line of sight (360) & pick a target
2. Check Range
3. Roll to hit
4. Roll to wound
5. Take Saving Throws
6. Remove Casualties

Fire Frenzy Shooting Order of Operations
1. Check line of sight (45 front) and range for target
2. Pivot towards target
3. Check Range
4. Roll to hit
5. Roll to wound
6. Take Saving Throws
7. Remove Casualties
8. Repeat steps 3-7 once more

"The question I don't see anyone asking is why do Dreadnought need to pivot if the rules tell us that they acquire targets like Infantry? Firstly, and most obviously, it's because they take damage like vehicles, and secondly it's because you want to bring all of a Walker's weapons to bear and a target at the very edge of a Dreadnought's right arm weapon mount will not be in line of sight for its left arm weapon mount."

In addition the LOS for the weapons are resolved independently. Which means an inconvenient wall(which your walker may be adjacent to) can completely block the T-LOS of one(or all) of the mounted weapons.

please take that into account, as your walker may "see" but cannot "shoot"

Lacross wrote:"The question I don't see anyone asking is why do Dreadnought need to pivot if the rules tell us that they acquire targets like Infantry? Firstly, and most obviously, it's because they take damage like vehicles, and secondly it's because you want to bring all of a Walker's weapons to bear and a target at the very edge of a Dreadnought's right arm weapon mount will not be in line of sight for its left arm weapon mount."

In addition the LOS for the weapons are resolved independently. Which means an inconvenient wall(which your walker may be adjacent to) can completely block the T-LOS of one(or all) of the mounted weapons.

please take that into account, as your walker may "see" but cannot "shoot"

Also if the dread turns 90* to it right its exposing it rear armour to the left.

Lascross:

A Chaos Dreadnought that cannot shoot will not go into a Fire Frenzy, so it's not so much that a Dreadnought will be able to see a target and not shoot at it so much that a Dreadnought will be able to see a target and be out of range and automatically miss. Or, as you have pointed out, have a weapon out of line of sight.

Since Chaos Dreadnoughts won't go into a Fire Frenzy is they cannot fire any ranged weapons, it's a very good idea to use their Smoke Launchers in the turn that you need them to keep moving towards combat. Pop smoke at the end of the Movement phase, and either use the Shooting phase for running, or hold back for the charge.

It's also something to blow smoke when your Dreadnought is in the throws of a Blood Rage, to increase the possibility of surviving past the next turn.

According to the FAQ, the dreadnought may not use smoke launchers to prevent it from firing in the shooting phase. Of course, this can be argued to be one of the times that an FAQ simply makes rules up, rather than clarifying them.

Actually, now that I look at it closer, the FAQ is right. The Fire Frenzy happens at the beginning of the turn before you have the option of firing Smoke Launchers. And since Fire Frenzy is involuntary, I'd say it removes the option to pop smoke.

Hmm. I owe someone an apology.

Did the Dreadnaught have this problem in 4th?

In 4th, walkers had front 180 LoS.

In the codex that was used for most of 4th edition it simply specified that the dreadnought fired at the closest enemy unit, or a friendly unit if no enemy units were in range/LoS.

The 4th edition rule was much better both as a rule and for the Chaos Dread owners.

The 5th edition Crazed! rule works fine as a rule and for Chaos Space Marine players, particularly considering their narrowed line of sight. Otherwise there would be no risk of friendly fire at all, and Chaos Dreadnoughts would have to be a great deal more expensive.

The rule specifies selecting a target before pivoting, while the regular Walker rules allow you to pivot while selecting a target. Easy.