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Hi Guys.


Now ive been running mech IG for a while now, but none the less I still have a sizeable amount of foot infantry, that i usually throw into veteran squads. Even if i were to use infantry, seeing I use kell, a vox and creed to issue orders, I usually dont see a reason to blob squads on the orders side of things, they usually pass anyway.

So! the Pro's of using a blob squad are
A) you can bubble wrap vehicles
B) in ease of use, you dont have to roll 3 orders, just 1, for a 30 man blob squad, and you dont have to roll dice separately when firing their lasguns and such.
C) it is an easy way for a commissar to pin down a good amount of men and keep them holding the line.

But the cons? They seem to be bigger than the pro's!
A) They can be sweeping advanced very easy
B) Any dedicated assault troops will make short work of them
C) pie plates will ruin them unless their in a big daisy chain.
D) very hard to get majority cover saves in a 30, or even 20 man squad.

So what exactly are they good at? why not take 3 separate squads. whats the thinking?

What you say is true, if you're just taking random squads and blobbing them. This is exactly why nobody does it.

For a blob to be worth its weight in blobs, it needs a commissar. A commissar makes a 30-dude squad neigh-on indestructable in close combat. In cover, with "incoming!", they get a 2++ save, which will take your opponent forever to kill 30 guys in.

As well, the commissar makes it more likely that they'll pass orders, and makes it so that you don't need a standard nearby to get a reroll.

That, and when you power up your blobs, you get an awful lot of hidden power weapon attacks on the charge, which means that, combined with stubborn, you can generally beat most things in the game due to attrition.

30-man blobs are tough as nails. Heck, even 20-man blobs are pretty dang tough. There's a lot you can do with them.

Jaon wrote:
But the cons? They seem to be bigger than the pro's!
A) They can be sweeping advanced very easy
B) Any dedicated assault troops will make short work of them
C) pie plates will ruin them unless their in a big daisy chain.
D) very hard to get majority cover saves in a 30, or even 20 man squad.

A) Not with a Commissar. Stubborn 9 with a re-roll is about as good as it gets.
B) Not really the case, because you'll get a chance to thin them out for a turn before they hit. Very few units will be able to make short work of 31 guardsmen, even at full strength, but even if some monster unit outmaneuvers you and charges the blob at full strength, and manages to kill 25 guys or so, you can always assign the commissar one of the wounds (preferably one that allows no save), so your stubborn goes away and you get a chance to fire after the remnants break from combat.
C) Sometimes true, but if in bubble wrap mode, they'll usually be in just such a line. Definitely a problem if the blob is advancing.
D) Can be a problem, but depends heavily on the table. You have so many that you might not need all of them to protect their charge. In that case, you can have a bunch behind another vehicle or terrain piece, providing the rest a cover save. I've never had a problem with it, myself.

Ailaros wrote:
30-man blobs are tough as nails. Heck, even 20-man blobs are pretty dang tough. There's a lot you can do with them.

Why are they tough as nails, even with a commissar, they have stubborn yes, but their still teq. I was under the impression that a 10 man assault squad would kill a HEAP of them. Sure you can whittle them down with your lasguns and such, but their still gunna get the assault.

And also, how exactly does a commissar make them better in CC? If you had stracken stand near them theyd be more awesome, but stubborn is no melee buff is it?

Tough as nails as in 30 bodies are going to take a while to kill. With stubborn, they will stay in assault till you kill almost all of them, tying you up for a good long time. Plus, that assault squad is going to eat 60 lasgun shots the turn before it charges.

Stubborn is arguably the best melee buff in the entire game (other than perhaps countercharge). Stubborn makes it so that if you lose combat, rather than being immediately swept off the field, you stick around, and, unlike fearless, you don't have to take wounds equal to the amount you lost by.

As for the "tough as nails". Let's assume that your 20-dude power blob gets charged by 5 death company. The death company obviously goes first and puts down 6 dudes. The remaining commissar and the two sergeants with their 9 power weapon attacks along with the other remaining dudes in the squad puts down 2.

They loose combat by 3, but they're stubborn with a commissar, so instead of making a check at Ld5, they're making a rerollable morale check at Ld9. Next turn, the remaining 3 death company put down 3 guardsmen. The guard in return puts down another 2. The guardsmen loose combat, but they're stubborn, so they stick around.

The next turn, the lone death company kills a guardsman, and the guardsmen take them down.

The end result of this horrible battle of attrition is that even though the death company charged you, the death company is dead, and the 21-dude power blob still has 13 dudes left.

Or, even if they got charged AGAIN by ANOTHER 5-man death company squad, they'd STILL beat it off with survivors left over to attempt to kill even more stuff afterward.

Sounds pretty tough to me.

That and a battery of 6 BS4 heavy bolters takes 20 turns to dig the squad out of cover if it has incoming.

In short, you can't even dent them with shooting (except flamers), and they're really hard to kill in close combat, and even if you can, it still takes a long time, which means their big, scary unit is still tarpitted.

Ailaros wrote:Stubborn is arguably the best melee buff in the entire game (other than perhaps countercharge)....

...As for the "tough as nails". Let's assume that your 20-dude power blob gets charged by 5 death company. The death company obviously goes first and puts down 6 dudes. The remaining commissar and the two sergeants with their 9 power weapon attacks along with the other remaining dudes in the squad puts down 2...

...That and a battery of 6 BS4 heavy bolters takes 20 turns to dig the squad out of cover if it has incoming...

Ok those are all good points, but Ive still got some problems here. I cut out the bits id like to focus on.

So first of all, unless you are the BEST melee unit ever, you hate fearless, thats a given. Its even worse if your not very good at melee, its really only good for ranged combat, and how often do you break in a range fight anyway? not often (never happened to any of my veteran squads OTHER than when they get fired on by devourers [-1 ld per wound]) But for an LD 10 unit, Furious charge would be way better. Point is yes stubborn is entirely better. But thats a silly off topic point. This is guard they arent exactly the strongest melee units.

Secondly, my friend favours an assault terminator squad with 3 lightning claws and 2 thunder hammers, with a sanguinary priest. Now only a fool wouldnt focus all their plasma fire on this unit but if they assaulted thats like....12 LCs, 6 thunder hammers, and 4 power weapons from the sanguinary priest, is going to get a good 15 kills on the squad and laugh at the reprisal. Once again i dont actually know why id mention that, there worth more points than the blob anyway...

Ok so on topic, A real problem here is ok we have a commisaar here, and weve got 3 sarges with PFs spread throughout the squad. for the Commissar to fight, he will have to be near the DC, and the in possible base combat with him willl try and WILL kill him. only way for him to be safe is to be behind another guardsmen, so he can fight but isnt in btb. The sarges will also have to be close also, but they cant be singled out. If the sarges are to thinly spread, they wont fight in the combat.


Also, can we use a 30 man blob squad for instance here, its biased in my favour but its what i will actually use. Now I give them incoming, but they cant shoot that turn...not to worry, their probably out of range anyway. So they have a 5+ cover save. well thats ALRIGHT but its not going to save as many lives as i want to be saving when a drop pod comes in with 10 marines with bolters and fires 20 massive reactive explosive shells into my squad. I assume you plan for me to then use get back in the fight. My problem here is if i want an actual cover save AND be able to fire the same turn, its gunna be hard to GET in cover without massive bunching. Any barrage / ignore cover weapons will have a field day. So i wont be able to get the GLORIOUS 2+ cover save from being in area terrain and using incoming. Major sadface.

LASTLY, my biggest and most applicable point. We have our DC, but instead, I have 2 10 man squads, not a 20 man squad, and a commissar stubborning the front squad. So the DC eat the usual 40 lashots...well they didnt in your scenario so scrap that. They assault one squad, the one with the commisar coz its the front one. Same shiz happens. except the first squad gets wiped and the surviving DC are left standing infront of a potential 30 lashots (FRFSRF) + special / heavy weapons. They eat that, then assault that squad. Wouldnt they be worse off? and wouldnt that apply to all blob squads? Only problem is IF the 10 man squad some how survives and the DC win in their own turn...bad things happen to my second squad.

why not be able to split your firepower when needed and do what was just said. Is there an overwhelming reason?

A few counterpoints

3 terminators with 3 lightning claws is 9 attacks. That unit charging guard kills about 9 guys on average, not 15. If you charge them, or if you can kill even one terminator before they make it in, that goes down to about 6 or 7. And that's kind of a worst-case scenario--you usually try to whittle those terminator squads down a couple of guys before they reach your blob. The blob will eventually grind them away and survive.

Also in that fight you allocate all your power weapon attacks on the sanguinary priest to start with. He can be picked out, since he's an independent character. Once he goes down, no more FNP.

The commissar lord is an independent character, which is why you don't buy him for a blob. Instead you buy the commissar upgrade to the squad, who can't be picked out in HtH because he's a squad upgrade. He only has to be within 2" of a model in base-to-base (like the sergeants) to fight. As long as you don't allocate hits to the commissar, he'll be the last man standing.

It's not hard to get 31 guys in cover without bunching if your tables have reasonable terrain. Remember only 16 of them need to be partly obscured. Mostly I find that people don't bother to shoot at them.

90 FRFSRF shots is better than 30.

Just try it. I was skeptical too until I actually fielded the unit (3 infantry squads, each with a pw sergeant and one with the pw commissar upgrade) and saw it eat whole squads of chaos marines without giving up a kill point.

Jaon wrote:

Ok so on topic, A real problem here is ok we have a commisaar here, and weve got 3 sarges with PFs spread throughout the squad. for the Commissar to fight, he will have to be near the DC, and the in possible base combat with him willl try and WILL kill him. only way for him to be safe is to be behind another guardsmen, so he can fight but isnt in btb. The sarges will also have to be close also, but they cant be singled out. If the sarges are to thinly spread, they wont fight in the combat.

why not be able to split your firepower when needed and do what was just said. Is there an overwhelming reason?

First of all, the Commissar is NOT an independent character and cannot be singled out in hth any more than the sgts can.
Second, proper deployment will see to it that the Commissar and all three sgts are where you need them to be so that they are able to get into the combat with their power weapons (not fists, comm/sgt in Infantry squads cannot have powerfists).
And I've seldom had a problem getting half or more of my models in or behind cover so that the blob gets a cover save.

Overwhelming reason? Cause it works for me. 30-man blobs have won me more games by standing and eating Marine, Chaos, Daemon, Eldar, whatever assault units and still being a viable combat unit afterwards. Sure, once in a while something comes along and so thoroughly trashes the unit that it's stupid to try and have them stand. So then (as already mentioned), you just put one of those wounds (preferably a power-type) on the Commissar and let the blob run (and likely die). For me, the concentration of firepower, the surviveability of the unit vs both shooting (keeps my HW/Special weapons alive a lot longer than a 10-man squad would) and hth, are well worth it.

Don't like them, don't use them.

Flavius Infernus wrote:A few counterpoints

3 terminators with 3 lightning claws is 9 attacks.

terminators. 2 attacks base, 1+ for extra LC, 1+ for charge. 4 each. 3x4 = 12


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flavius Infernus wrote:


Just try it. I was skeptical too until I actually fielded the unit (3 infantry squads, each with a pw sergeant and one with the pw commissar upgrade) and saw it eat whole squads of chaos marines without giving up a kill point.

INGENIUS! This is the best point so far! killpoints! finally a tangible reason.

Jaon wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:A few counterpoints

3 terminators with 3 lightning claws is 9 attacks.

terminators. 2 attacks base, 1+ for extra LC, 1+ for charge. 4 each. 3x4 = 12

Whoops, I was doing it wrong with my LC terminators at 'ard Boyz. No wonder I lost

I stand corrected.

don_mondo wrote:

First of all, the Commissar is NOT an independent character and cannot be singled out in hth any more than the sgts can.
Second, proper deployment will see to it that the Commissar and all three sgts are where you need them to be so that they are able to get into the combat with their power weapons (not fists, comm/sgt in Infantry squads cannot have powerfists).
And I've seldom had a problem getting half or more of my models in or behind cover so that the blob gets a cover save.

Overwhelming reason? Cause it works for me. 30-man blobs have won me more games by standing and eating Marine, Chaos, Daemon, Eldar, whatever assault units and still being a viable combat unit afterwards. Sure, once in a while something comes along and so thoroughly trashes the unit that it's stupid to try and have them stand. So then (as already mentioned), you just put one of those wounds (preferably a power-type) on the Commissar and let the blob run (and likely die). For me, the concentration of firepower, the surviveability of the unit vs both shooting (keeps my HW/Special weapons alive a lot longer than a 10-man squad would) and hth, are well worth it.

Don't like them, don't use them.

Good points there too, and I didnt say I didnt like them, Ive just never used them. also bout the fists, im so used to using veterans i totally forgot, my bad

And the thing that i extract from your post is that in the end, although they can die, they are guardsmen. And its not like their going to die instantly. And they can still do some damage. Well, ill keep those flame storm cannons away and I should do fine. I have been convinced. Next game im blobbing

Thanks for the great help guys. Much appreciated.

It's not just KP, it's also objectives missions. Blobs are really hard to kill. They have a nasty tendency to stick around claiming and contesting objectives long after their constituant parts would have run away.

I think you're missing the key play style of the blobs. The point is NOT that they won't take casualties. They will take casualties, lots and lots of them. The point is that it doesn't MATTER that they take casualties.

Lose 10 dudes to bolter fire? With a 31-dude blob, you can take three turns of bolter fire before you finally loose a blob (assuming you dont' do anything to help yourself). The game will probably end before they die.

Get charged by a sanguiniary priest with 3LC and 2 TH terminators? In round 1, they kill 10 dudes (I don't know where you got 15 from), and lose the priest. The next turn, the guard lose 7 guys and the terminators lose one. The next turn the guard loses 5 guys, and the terminators are down another. The next turn the guard loses 4 guys, and the terminators another, etc

The end result of the battle is that, even in this worst-case scenario, the guard blob STILL WINS. Throw in a less than worst-case scenario, and the blob will win handily. They will win, not because T3 weapons are awesome and a half, but because the squad DOESN'T CARE about the casualties it receives, meaning that it can keep chopping with them turn after turn.

Yep, I've had several games lately where a single blob controlled two or three objectives. Move move move is a wonderful order late in the game...........

When ever I play guard at the higher point levels I go for the infantry heavy approach, 3+ platoons of guard (165-175 men) and a full conscript squad of 50. If I do choose to go with the blob approach I devide the platoon into a 30 man and a 20 man blob with a commisare in the 30 man blob. Then by intertwineing (very, very cheesy) the two blobs I can essentially make it so the squads both receive 4+ cover saves in the open, the commisare gives the larger squad stubborn and Ld 9 and straken, hiding in the back makes my squads even more awesome. I then advance up the board with 200+ models and crush all opposition, meat grinder style.

as a recovering Ig player that is getting use to life without Inquisitors, i have a question.
doesn't a large blob squad(30+) suffer a greater chance of having really bad things happening to it if it gets Lashed?
seeing as i still play mostly Mech, i haven't had to worry about it much. i've been wanting to try a "blob" list against my friend that
plays chaos. and i can see him lashing my squads all over the place.

alarmingrick wrote:as a recovering Ig player that is getting use to life without Inquisitors, i have a question.
doesn't a large blob squad(30+) suffer a greater chance of having really bad things happening to it if it gets Lashed?
seeing as i still play mostly Mech, i haven't had to worry about it much. i've been wanting to try a "blob" list against my friend that
plays chaos. and i can see him lashing my squads all over the place.

It's possible. Course, that blob generally has enough firepower to put down a Lash Prince all by itself (with Bring It Down).

Yeah BID or FRF,SRF; both will put some hurt on a Lash Prince.

30 Guardmen Firing 3 Heavy Weapons, 3 Special Weapons, and 3 Sgts with Laspistols(because Plasma pistols are still a Waste of Points) equates to 18 Lasguns firing an extra shot is 36 Lasguns @ 24" or 54 lasguns @ 12"; both of which have the possibility to kill a daemon prince(it is a slim-ish chance, but a chance)

Okay, also I should note that blob squads are not INVINCIBLE, they're just really, really tough.

If your opponent lashes your blob into a tight little cluster out in the open and then shoots three defiler cannons at them, you'll be in tough shape. Likewise doom+fortune bladestorming can make an awful mess of the squad. Just because they can be countered doesn't make them somehow weak and fragile.

As well, you can always choose to separate your blobs if you're really afraid of things like lash so that he can only do it to part of your blob at a time.

OK i kinda skipped through the last 6 posts, got tired of reading. but one benafit of blobs that didnt come up is in an inialation game. You could have a 50 man blob and put them behind an agis line and then initiate"incoming giving them a 2+ cover save and theres 50..by the time they ALL die the person would have only gotten one point and waisted a ton of lead.
Do this with a Comand squad w/ creed,kell, and all 3 regimental advisors. you can now have 4 boddyguards making a 12 man comand squad and putting on camo cloaks would help. This brings tolls to a possible 2 pts.
Now get 2 or 3 lemen russ tanks with battle cannons and lascannons and multimeltas.Because vehicals dont count as a kill point, they are a nucense to kill and will be targeted. Put them in a squad w/ camo cloaks and hunter killers.
This brings you to a total of 2 possible points. And 3 tanks that have at least one insta kill e.a and long ranged. Hunter killers can easily kill enemy transports and if you do it soon enough you can hitm before they disembark. Use your ordinance from Reggimental advisor advisor on a turn your rolling good and dont forget its a barrage.

I have enjoyed playing with two 40-man blobs and a single 30-man blob. Supported by the likes of Straken they are pretty overwhelming.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote: but one benafit of blobs that didnt come up is in an inialation game.

It did come up, actually.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote: Now get 2 or 3 lemen russ tanks with battle cannons and lascannons and multimeltas.Because vehicals dont count as a kill point,

You might want to check your rulebook again...

Sorry didnt see it come up. And my friends got the rule book.. ithought they didnt count as a kill pt?

Individual vehicles within a squadron do not count as kps but the entire squadron itself does. Likewise lone vehicles count. Basicly any "unit" counts, that means dedicated transports, drop pods, and ICs as well.

Unfortunantly with vehicles is squadrons the benifits don't really outweigh the advantages. I sneak up on your russ squadron and multilase the back armour, your squadron is in for some hurt.

Yes, blobs can get moved around by lashes and then largeblasted, but what's the rest of your army doing. the key to effectively using large amounts of infantry is synergy, as no squads/unit can survive on it's own, these are not space marines, they need some support.

Ail, thanks for posting concrete stuff about the blob. I've heard "well you could run lots of tanks or lots of guys!!" more times that I can shake a lasgun at without anyone telling me how a million guardsmen are going about actually winning. That blob setup makes sense.

A question, however - when you field this unit (as I'm assuming you do, it sounds like you have battlefield experience with it) do you take any special weapons in the squad? What about the PCS - 4xflamers in a chimera as a bodyguard for the blob or advancing with the rest? Or something else?

I'm a very very new guard player building up my first force and could use all the advice I can get. Just finished painting up a GLAC squad. Thanks in advance.

Karate, it all depends. What are you versing? what do you aim for? A chimera shoved in the middle with 4x flamer would be a lovely addition, excellent counter charge, but so can a hellhound. hellhounds got more armour (costs a bit more i think, and isnt a deditrans). Not to mention the blob will provide a cover save for your tank (hopefully D: ) or in the least stop anyone from getting unwantedly close.

this has been great to read, it makes me wantto try blobing now.

karate_bum wrote:A question, however - when you field this unit (as I'm assuming you do, it sounds like you have battlefield experience with it) do you take any special weapons in the squad? What about the PCS - 4xflamers in a chimera as a bodyguard for the blob or advancing with the rest? Or something else?

Right, so there are two ways to do blobs. The one way is to camp them on your objective as cheaply as possible. Maybe throw in a couple of meltaguns or something. I can't give you the best possible advise on these kinds of blobs as I've never used them myself. All I can say is keep them cheap.

As for the power blobs all you strictly speaking need is a commissar and a power weapon on everyone who could take it. Personally, I've been running them in 20-man squads + commissar + priest, and each of the two squads has a special weapon (grenade launcher and a flamer). Honestly, I've found that, despite being assault weapons, I almost never get a chance to fire them. The tricky thing with giving weapons to assault-based squads is that you never want to kill so many of them that you're not in assault range.

Currently I'm springing 10 points for 2 special weapons and 10 points for rerollable meltabombs. As such, I'm becoming seriously tempted by getting rid of the special weapons alltogether to spend points on stuff I'll actually shoot in any given game. Alternately, I could turn those 20 points into two meltaguns - something I don't normally find savory, but if I'm not shooting lasguns (or anything for that matter) anyways, then it's not like I'm wasting firepower by shooting at tanks. Of course, most of the time it means I'm carrying around 20 points of dead weight, so I'm still not certain.

In any case, the strength of the blob comes from lots and lots of stubborn wounds. Don't make it more bloated than it needs to be to get the job done.

Ailaros wrote:

karate_bum wrote:
As for the power blobs all you strictly speaking need is a commissar and a power weapon on everyone who could take it. Personally, I've been running them in 20-man squads + commissar + priest, and each of the two squads has a special weapon (grenade launcher and a flamer). Honestly, I've found that, despite being assault weapons, I almost never get a chance to fire them. The tricky thing with giving weapons to assault-based squads is that you never want to kill so many of them that you're not in assault range.

.

Couldnt agree more, meltaguns and flamers on the defensive is never a very easy thing to pull off. Use them aggressivley in a valkyrie or chimera. Suprise the enemy with them. You will get many high ranking kills with these. Flamers are excellent in chimeras for their ability to guarantee kills on anything meleeing the chimera. And I cant describe in words how successful ive been with meltaguns in a valkyrie, sure their suicidal, but there not that many points, and they make it up in single kills. Ive killed land raiders and predators and defilers and all the like, the only thing that has escaped me thus far is a damn wave serpent!