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Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard? They both offer a re-roll so I know plenty of people that take that to mean you pick which one you want.

Otherwise, what would happen if you had multiple commissars in a squad, and failed a morale test? Would each commissar summarily execute one guy and you'd get one re-roll total?

Check out the page on commissars, he doesn't execute if you want to re-roll. He executes when his squad fails a morale test.

As for your second question, seems like the commissars might cap a dude each - another reason to never have more than one in the blob

The level of rule confusion, and Imperial guard mutilation done by ImperialGuardPanzies...which in its self is insulting to guard, is worthy of heresy.

May this thread burn.

I thought what you see is what you get. And my friend will pull that rule..just because hes not man enough to let his space marines loose one guy.

Terminus wrote:Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard?

Illumini wrote:Check out the page on commissars, he doesn't execute if you want to re-roll. He executes when his squad fails a morale test.

Right, the sergeant in the squad looks at the banner waving in the breeze trying to figure out to run or not, but before he gets the chance to decide, he's already been shot just for the fact that he showed any doubt.

I mean, they both say that the squad re-rolls the morale check, but as you can only reroll once, you only get one reroll. Regardless of if you may or may not pass a reroll on morale (however you choose to take it), this does not stop the commissar from summarily executing someone for having failed the test the first time.

Terminus wrote:Otherwise, what would happen if you had multiple commissars in a squad, and failed a morale test? Would each commissar summarily execute one guy and you'd get one re-roll total?

Illumini wrote:As for your second question, seems like the commissars might cap a dude each - another reason to never have more than one in the blob

Yeah, this isn't exactly obvious.

Personally, I'd play it where I summarily executed just one model, regardless of the number of commissars (because in my mind 1 execution = 1 reroll), but if someone put on their rules lawyer hat, I'd remove a model per commissar without giving them grief about it.

As illumini says, there really isn't any good reason to take more than one commissar in a squad anyways (unless there are a lot of vindicare assassins afoot), so this quandry is more often than not avoided by good list building.

If you throw straken into the middle of your army then the blobs just become awesome, on the charge thats 60+ s4 int 4 attacks or if you get charged then 60+ s3 int 3

How do you figure 60? there can only be 50 people in a blob squad, and conscrips only got to fifty. and im prety sure you cant combine them.And that still wouldnt work if you had a minimul amount of conscrips because a squad starts with twenty people. You would need 40ppl from a blob squad, and a conscrips squad.Im still 150% sure that this isnt possible. Or even thought of.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:I thought what you see is what you get. And my friend will pull that rule..just because hes not man enough to let his space marines loose one guy.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:How do you figure 60? there can only be 50 people in a blob squad, and conscrips only got to fifty. and im prety sure you cant combine them.And that still wouldnt work if you had a minimul amount of conscrips because a squad starts with twenty people. You would need 40ppl from a blob squad, and a conscrips squad.Im still 150% sure that this isnt possible. Or even thought of.

It's like the duracell bunny


You really need to buy a rulebook. You seem to lack even a basic understanding of the rules.

youbedead wrote:If you throw straken into the middle of your army then the blobs just become awesome, on the charge thats 60+ s4 int 4 attacks or if you get charged then 60+ s3 int 3

Yep, good stuff. With a typical 30-man mob, you're actually getting 70 attacks (Sgts and commissar). One caveat on receiving charges against marines and such, is that your numbers will likely be dramatically decreased by the time you swing back. But that's okay, since it's really the power swords that kill marines in such match-ups.

ImpGuardPanzies wrote:How do you figure 60? there can only be 50 people in a blob squad, and conscrips only got to fifty. and im prety sure you cant combine them.And that still wouldnt work if you had a minimul amount of conscrips because a squad starts with twenty people. You would need 40ppl from a blob squad, and a conscrips squad.Im still 150% sure that this isnt possible. Or even thought of.

Rather than yelling at you, I'll explain.

When charging, each normal guardsman gets 2 attacks. So it only takes 30 charging guardsmen to get 60 attacks. The sergeants, if equipped right, and the commissar get 3 attacks base and 4 when charging, so if you factor in those attacks to you don't even need as many as 30 guardsmen.

Ailaros wrote:

Terminus wrote:Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard?

Illumini wrote:Check out the page on commissars, he doesn't execute if you want to re-roll. He executes when his squad fails a morale test.

Right, the sergeant in the squad looks at the banner waving in the breeze trying to figure out to run or not, but before he gets the chance to decide, he's already been shot just for the fact that he showed any doubt.

Or, the sgt looks at the standard and rallies the men before the Commissar reacts, given that you IGNORE the first roll if the reroll is successful.
If you ignore it, they never failed, so why would the commissar shoot someone...................
Just like a twin-linked plasma gun that overheats. If the second roll is a one, it never got hot and you do not take a wound.


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Terminus wrote:Why does Summary Execution take precedence over the Standard? They both offer a re-roll so I know plenty of people that take that to mean you pick which one you want.

Even more, both require you to reroll. And yeah, I'm in the 'pick which one you want to use' camp.

check the rules again:

summary execution: "If the commissar's unit fails a Morale test the commissar will summarily execute..."

regimental standard: "...in addition, any friendly units within 12" reroll failed morale and pinning checks."

So, there are two possible things that could happen when a squad takes casualties.

1.) the squad in question rolls, say, a 5. They're fine.

2.) the squad rolls, say an 11. Your unit failed a morale test. This means the commissar shoots. Now, after this, you can choose to reroll this already-failed test with the standard, but it's moot as the commissar already rerolled it, and you can't reroll it again.

Summery execution doesn't win, but you failed the roll, so someone's still got to get shot in the face, occasionally you want to fail that leadership, like if you are fighting terminators so you can assault back in.

I'm slowly warming up to guard blobs. While I don't "go assault" with my blobs I outfit them as such. Usually 3 squads, 3 power swords and a commisar. Basically acting as a gunline / meat shield I dont understand the whole assaulting with them thing. If you could replace basic guardsmen rifles with pistols and stick a priest in the back of the squad, then maybe, I just don't see the assault being worth the 60-90 lasgun shots with a first rank order fire the previous turn.

It makes a difference if you have a source of furious charge, or you need to lock up a target for next turn. It really depends on the target. For example, I rather assault a tactical squad and take the fight to power swords and bayonets, rather than trade shots with rapid-firing boltguns.

Also, a huge difference is that in close combat, you almost always get an armor save, while against shooting you almost never do. Furthermore, most people get two shots in the shooting, but only one attack when they're caught flat-footed in assault. As such, close combat makes your squad three times more durable. Plus, stubborn is only helpful in close combat.

Sitting still at point blank range so that you can shoot some lasguns and then get bladestormed or berserker charged or waaaughed, or whatever is a bad idea. Stopping your opponent from shooting, reducing their attacks, and stopping some of their special rules (like furious charge), all while giving you a slough of power weapon attacks and putting your troops into a position where they're the most durable sounds like a good idea.

Just for fun, I did some rough calculations of the two possibilities when facing a unit of 10 Khorne Berserkers with a PW champ in two melee phases. I'm disregarding the pistols of the Sgts and Commissar, as well as special weapons, since you get to fire them in either case.

OPTION ONE - Shoot the bastards!
24 FRFSRF lasguns = 72 shots, 4 kills

Berserkers shoot 6 bolt pistols, kill 2 or 3
Charge with 20 S5 regular attacks, kill about 7
Champ drops another 2 or 3, so let's say 12 dead total in melee.

Guard grunts then respond with 15 S3 attacks, killing about one. Sgts and Commissar swing with 12 S3 power weapon attacks, claiming another 2.

So the shooting option, assuming the Chaos player doesn't attack the blob with anything other than the Berks, results in trading 16 guardsmen for 6 berserkers. An excellent trade, even before you factor in any kills from the special weapons.

OPTION TWO - Bayonet their entrails!
Guard assault on their turn.
Berserkers attack first with 27 regular attacks and 4 PW attacks, killing about 10.
Guard with 34 regular S3 attacks and 16 S3 PW attacks, killing 6.

Chaos turn, Berserkers swing with 9 regular attacks and 4 PW attacks, killing another 4 guardsmen.
Guard respond with 13 regular attacks and 12 PW attacks, killing all but one or two. Then factor in the special weapons, and bye bye Berserkers.

------------------------------------------------------------------

So as you can see, even against an elite melee unit, assaulting can serve you more than shooting. Both situations actually end with the Berserkers losing, but assaulting takes the opponent's choice out of the equation (so he can't whittle the squad down a bit with other elements, or re-deploy the berserkers elsewhere), kills the Berserkers faster, and actually loses fewer guys.

Now if you add Furious Charge to the mix, you have solid odds of wiping out the Berks in one round. Or better yet, you'll only leave one or two alive, and can finish them off on their turn, avoiding another round of enemy shooting.

Counter Charge also gives you the best of both worlds, allowing you to shoot and get the extra attacks.

Those are really persuasive numbers, Terminus.

After running the same scenarios against other unit types whose numbers aren't so skewed by the huge number of attacks that berzerkers get, I'm even more convinced. Against tac marines and assault marines, the guard get similar results, and the only difference is that the guard lose fewer models in assault--which is always a good thing.

It's surprising to see that the extra attacks of extra guardsmen don't really make that much of a difference--even doubling them by charging only makes a difference of about 1 enemy casualty--but that those extra power weapon attacks make a big difference. A couple of extra casualties in those 10-man power-armor units makes a big difference.

I don't know if it would work the same against large units of T3 models with crappy saves, though. There it feels like the shooting would net more casualties overall.

yeah. it's pretty sickening how space marines cant beat guard in a fire fight or in a fist fight. you pretty much have to flame them if they're in giant blobs. Guard are going be good for a llllooooonnnngggg time.
AF


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I disagree Ailaros. The guardsmen can withstand the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this is from another thread

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Fett
the marines will win the 1st round of assault but the guardsmen are leadership 9 stubborn and reroll their leadership when within 12 of a banner. the guard aren't going to run.

So to continue your example..... I'm going to round decimals to the nearest whole number. You can try rounding down if you want but I think the result will be more or less the same.

1st round:
Marines: 21 attacks 14 hits 10 wounds 7 casualties
Guard: 14 attacks 7 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (7) Guard (14) Marines win. Guard hold.

2nd round:
Marines: 9 attacks 6 hits 4 wounds 3 casualties
Guard: 11 attacks 6 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (4) Guard (11) Combat tied.

3rd round:
Marines: 6 attacks 4 hit 3 wounds 2 casualties
Guard: 9 attacks 5 hits 2 wounds 1 casualty
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines (1) Guard (9) Marines lose.

4th round:
Marines: 3 attacks 2 hit 1 wound 1 casualty
Guard: 8 attacks 4 hits 1 wound 0 casualties
9 power weapon attacks 5 hit 2 casualties
Result: Marines are all dead.

AF

The save is really the important part here. Against SM, it's really the power weapons that do most of the killing, so once that benefit is mitigated, all that matters is volume of attacks.

So alright, let's do it vs. 30 hormagaunts with adrenals. As always, standard caveat about mathhammer apply.

OPTION 1
72 shots, 15 casualties (let's assume they don't run away).

Remaining 15 hormies assault with 45 S4 attacks, killing 10 guardsmen. Guardsmen respond, killing 6 or 7. Combat should end on your turn with the Guardsmen victorious after losing maybe a dozen members.

OPTION 2
Guard charge. Hormagaunts swing 60 times, killing 10.
Guard respond by killing 11. If the Hormagaunts don't break, it will probably take at least another two combat rounds to clear them out. That in of itself isn't that bad since that would end the combat on their assault phase, but you'd lose at least twice as many dudes.

--------------------

So yes, against other scum of the universe, the flashlights are good enough. For everyone else, into the breach (unless it has T>4, in which case RUN AWAY FROM THE BREACH! ).

Lets mathhammer them against Yriel.

Large blast can hit more than 30 models when crunched together.

30 hits, 24 models dead. Hilarious.

If I am not mistaken a solid blob is going to be at least 200 points. I would love to see that get hit by a large template from the center. Just thinking about all of those guardsmen splattered all over the map makes me laugh.

Is there a better counter to them? What could actually do that much damage? A bunch of flamers? The best part is that the last few guardsmen will stick around if the Commissar can survive somehow, providing a shield against shooting. It really doesn't seem to get much better than Yriel when faced with swarms.

Hmm... I should probably work him into more lists, what a freaking beast.



No, not you...

Obviously, this doesn't mean that blobs don't have their uses, you just need to be really aware of template weaponry, doubly so when it ignores cover, and quadruply so when it is also a S6/Ap3 large blast... that hits inside of assaults. Fantastic that is, I will really need to try it out some time. Usually I'll just throw Yriel in with some Meq, to make use of the Ap3, but he seems to do a serious tap-dance on swarm units.

Yriel would die like the elf bitch he is.

The absolute maximum amount his large template (which is centered on him) could possibly hit is 22 models, if he is completely enveloped from all sides. What's far more likely is that all the enemy models will be within his front 180 arc (see attached file). He tagged 11 models, and the guards' bases are practically overlapping (which is less likely on an actual table due to uneven terrain and arms and whatnot).

So, Yriel charges (let's ignore how he managed to get there for now), activates The Eye, and kills 9 models. Guard retaliate with 30 attacks (18 from grunts, 12 from sgts and commissar), averaging 3.75 wounds (he has three).

plus, blob squads are more vulnerable when unsupported. The best way to kill Yuriel in this case would be to have the melta SWS sitting right behind the blob step forward and instant death him.

Ailaros wrote:check the rules again:

summary execution: "If the commissar's unit fails a Morale test the commissar will summarily execute..."

regimental standard: "...in addition, any friendly units within 12" reroll failed morale and pinning checks."

So, there are two possible things that could happen when a squad takes casualties.

1.) the squad in question rolls, say, a 5. They're fine.

2.) the squad rolls, say an 11. Your unit failed a morale test. This means the commissar shoots. Now, after this, you can choose to reroll this already-failed test with the standard, but it's moot as the commissar already rerolled it, and you can't reroll it again.

Or.................... Since there is nothing saying which order they are resolved in, you use the banner first, pass the reroll, and the failure NEVER happened.

The standard says that you may "reroll FAILED morale tests". This means that you need to fail the morale test in order to take a reroll from the standard.

However, when you fail a morale test, the commissar summarily executes. If you'd like, you can take the test, fail the test, do the summary execution, and then take the standard reroll (and waste the commissar's reroll), but it doesn't stop you from shooting a guy, and it doesn't give you an extra reroll. Therefore taking a standard for commissar-led squads is pointless.

don_mondo wrote:Since there is nothing saying which order they are resolved in, you use the banner first, pass the reroll, and the failure NEVER happened.

I read this a lot, but I am not sure I agree.
The failed roll no longer counts, but it occured or you would not re-roll.

Once you re-roll the previous roll is discounted, but it still happened.
The re-roll rules never say to ignore the failure--just that the next roll is the one that counts.
As an example, Gets Hot! actuall states the re-roll is the only one that matters and that the initial roll can be ignored.

Ailaros wrote:The standard says that you may "reroll FAILED morale tests". This means that you need to fail the morale test in order to take a reroll from the standard.

However, when you fail a morale test, the commissar summarily executes. If you'd like, you can take the test, fail the test, do the summary execution, and then take the standard reroll (and waste the commissar's reroll), but it doesn't stop you from shooting a guy, and it doesn't give you an extra reroll. Therefore taking a standard for commissar-led squads is pointless.

My argument to that is that the exact same language used in Summary Execution is used when describing how to take the Morale check to see if you fall back. So if you meet the conditions for Summary Execution (i.e it is an inevitible outcome the moment that you fail the first check), you just as legitimately meet the conditions for Falling Back.

Yes, you do meet the conditions for falling back.

However, the rule for summary execution then goes on to say that you immediately reroll the morale check, which uses that second result to determine if you actually fall back or not.

I suppose the only vague thing for me on this is if the commissar summarily executes after EVERY failed morale check. Namely, if the squad fails the first morale check, and the commissar shoots, and then you reroll and fail again, does he shoot again? I've been assuming not, as, as mentioned, the reroll rule implies that you count the reroll as if it were the initial results of your first roll, but I could see an argument for a particularly trigger happy commissar.

Ailaros wrote:The standard says that you may "reroll FAILED morale tests". This means that you need to fail the morale test in order to take a reroll from the standard.

However, when you fail a morale test, the commissar summarily executes. If you'd like, you can take the test, fail the test, do the summary execution, and then take the standard reroll (and waste the commissar's reroll), but it doesn't stop you from shooting a guy, and it doesn't give you an extra reroll. Therefore taking a standard for commissar-led squads is pointless.

And once you pass it, there was NEVER a failed test. Or do you insist that twin-linked plasma guns have to roll an armor save when they roll a one on the first try, but not on the second. It's the same principle. If the reroll succeeds, the first rioll never happened. And if it never happened, why is the Commissar going to shoot someone for something that never happened.

But we're going to just keep going around and around, just like last time this came up.
Bottom line. I think you can choose the order in which they are applied, which changes what happens.
You disagree and think that the Commissar must be applied first, which means someone always gets shot.

I agree with the don on this one. RAW is vague, RAI seems to favor giving you the choice (or perhaps it just makes more sense in my mind), and the INAT FAQ (for what it's worth), has ruled that the banner goes first.


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Ugh... no heavy weapons, crappy melta SWS teams instead of veterans or even a platoon command, small combined squads loaded with 100+ points of characters and topped off with grenade launchers of all things... wow, it's like everything you do with your guard is designed expressly to annoy me.

don_mondo wrote: Or do you insist that twin-linked plasma guns have to roll an armor save when they roll a one on the first try, but not on the second. It's the same principle. If the reroll succeeds, the first rioll never happened.

As I said, this is because the Gets Hot! rules actually state that is the case. The failed roll did happen, that is why you can reroll.