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Terminus wrote:Yriel would die like the elf bitch he is.

Okay.

The absolute maximum amount his large template (which is centered on him) could possibly hit is 22 models, if he is completely enveloped from all sides.

Not quite...



If you don't feel like counting it is 30 models aside Yriel in the center. 30 MODELS, NOT 22.

What's far more likely is that all the enemy models will be within his front 180 arc (see attached file). He tagged 11 models, and the guards' bases are practically overlapping (which is less likely on an actual table due to uneven terrain and arms and whatnot).

I thought about putting together an elaborate diagram showing exactly how you are wrong. I don't need to.

If you choose not to play using no holding back (if you somehow manage to get the charge), or defenders react, that is your problem.

So, Yriel charges (let's ignore how he managed to get there for now), activates The Eye, and kills 9 models. Guard retaliate with 30 attacks (18 from grunts, 12 from sgts and commissar), averaging 3.75 wounds (he has three).

I will compromise and say he attacks a squad that completely defies the concepts of basic geometry, and only 20 models get hit by the blast. Yriel kills around 17 models, and your PWs all miraculously survive somehow. Then... all of your PW are within attack range, every single one. I fortune Yriel and it doesn't matter. None of what you are ignoring matters, not a drop of it. He will wipe the floor with that squad.

Let's say that somehow Yriel dies, the squad is left without a shooting barrier, and gets mowed down by shuriken catapults, as they are more than likely to be in range, and without many targets to hit. I am not particularly worried about blobs as an Eldar player. The one thing that eldar can do quite well, is deal with swarms.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Terminus wrote:Yriel would die like the elf bitch he is.

I will compromise and say he attacks a squad that completely defies the concepts of basic geometry, and only 20 models get hit by the blast. Yriel kills around 17 models, and your PWs all miraculously survive somehow. Then... all of your PW are within attack range, every single one. I fortune Yriel and it doesn't matter. None of what you are ignoring matters, not a drop of it. He will wipe the floor with that squad.

Let's say that somehow Yriel dies, the squad is left without a shooting barrier, and gets mowed down by shuriken catapults, as they are more than likely to be in range, and without many targets to hit. I am not particularly worried about blobs as an Eldar player. The one thing that eldar can do quite well, is deal with swarms.

because of the 6" pile in move, its pretty much impossbile to get all the guard like that on the first round of combat, even so, you can remove casualties from anywhere in the squad, if its a 30 man squad, you could kill 26 before he loses a power weapon (in theory) if its a 40 man, you could kill 35, ect. ect. Its very unlikely to route out the power weapons because of wound allocation rules

Fair enough, I don't disagree, but since you do remove models that are out of base to base combat, any PWs left outside of base contact are very likely to take a wound, and die as a result.

Anyway, it is certainly not impossible to get nearly every model in the squad under the template. Attacking with one model with a measly 1 inch base means that pulling in a ton of models into combat is certainly not out of the question. The only situation where I could imagine few models being stuck under the plate, is where the formation of the squad is in a necklace-style, single row layout. If that is what the blob is always doing, then Yriel could still just lock the squad down, and chew through it over a couple turns. Fortune is a tough cookie to break.

Most of the time, blobs won't be spread @ a 2" interval in a single line. I would expect Yriel to get a minimum of 20 models under the blast on average, especially considering the fact that I will be the one choosing where he gets into assault. If I hit the center of a 2-line, 1" spread formation, most everything is going to be forced under the template.

In order to use a blob to provide cover for vehicles, they need to be at a very mild spread. 1" simply won't provide cover saves to vehicles, nor should it.

Having Yriel around presents a serious threat to blob-squads.

I would put together something explaining all of this, but Vassal just doesn't cut it. The measuring tool is no less than garbage. There are ways to mitigate some of the damage the blast will bring, but that simply gives Yriel the opportunity to be protected from fire the next turn as well. You will have to pull the rest of your models in, and Yriel can wait to use the blast until then. Not complicated, but illustrating it is actually quite difficult. If we were in person, I could show you in about a half hour. There is no formation that will stop Yriel from wreaking havoc on a blob, really, there just isn't. Every single formation you could use, won't do enough, it will just prolong the inevitable.

You really don't want swarms to get stuck in combat with a fortuned Yriel.

I'll go into some detail quickly, working along the lines set by you (Grunds) and Terminus. A blob of 30 Guard w/ 3x PW Sarge, and a PW Commissar, lets ignore the very significant cost of that squad.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Commissar hits with 2 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 2a, 1h, .5w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .38 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1 wound on a 3+ rr, takes .11 wounds.

Yriel just took less than half a wound, while delivering three. He won't do much damage with regular attacks, but the next turn spells complete doom for the rest of the squad. Their only hope is Yriel rolling a crap-ton of ones. Sure, they can lock him down for 2-3 turns, but I prefer to think of it as Yriel having a great time stuck inside the squad, wading around in the guts of the guardsmen he has torn into pieces.

I think you need to re-read how piling-in actually works.

It's one of my pet hates that players seem to think that an assault would actually 'wrap around' in the way you visualise it. It wouldn't happen and, in the actual rules, it cannot happen unless the Guard squad moved to surround Yriel in the preceding Movement Phase.

There is simply no way that a 6" move would allow those models to completely surround him, so the way Terminus has it visualised is far more accurate than the one above.

Oh, and due to the fact that he's a single model, there would be no need to alter the position of the Guard models in any subsequent assault phases, as any deaths would simply be removed from the 'unengaged' pool of models; any engaged ones are fine exactly where they are. This would mean that the very best you can do is either kill 3 Guard a turn for...the rest of the game, or waste your Eye klling 4-5 more.

Oh, and to answer your question regarding price: 30-man combined PIS w/ 3 x Sergeant PWs and a Commisar PW = 225, Yriel is 155. That's only a difference of 70, and I get to hold up one of your...'killiest?' units for practically the whole game, which is exactly what I want my squad to do.

L. Wrex

EDIT: One final thing; the Guard aren't hitting Yriel on 5s, they're hitting on 4s. He's not WS7. Your maths might not be quite so shiny when you take that into consideration.

Right, Lycaeus is right. Once the guys that are within 6" of the assaulted model in question are in question, then you just need to move everything to within 2", after which you just move them towards. Unless you're starting the assault from like 1" away (which would be dumb, knowing this rule), then you're going to get a close combat that looks like a cone, rather than a circle.

don_mondo wrote:And once you pass it, there was NEVER a failed test.

But you only pass it AFTER YOU FAIL IT. Any time they fail, the commsssar shoots, regardless of if you later get a reroll or not.. Any time you don't fail, you don't get a reroll. I'm really surprised that this isn't more obvious, given how clear the rule is.

I mean, if you take this interpretation then, if you don't have a standard, you could say that because the squad passed the reroll after the summary execution, that you should be able to put the model back on the table, because there never was a failed test after all.

Wrexasaur wrote:Anyway, it is certainly not impossible to get nearly every model in the squad under the template.

It's certainly not impossible when using a computer application, and some healthy doses of make-believe and 4th edition 40K.

But then reality happens.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Oh, and due to the fact that he's a single model, there would be no need to alter the position of the Guard models in any subsequent assault phases, as any deaths would simply be removed from the 'unengaged' pool of models; any engaged ones are fine exactly where they are.

Ironically enough, even with my slightly sloppy arrangement of the models above, I think only one of them isn't actually within 2" of a model in base to base, so they would all get to attack.

Oh, and to answer your question regarding price: 30-man combined PIS w/ 3 x Sergeant PWs and a Commisar PW = 225, Yriel is 155. That's only a difference of 70, and I get to hold up one of your...'killiest?' units for practically the whole game, which is exactly what I want my squad to do.

No, you don't get to hold him up. Yriel is extremely ikely to be dead after the second combat phase, if not the first.

Even if you had to move into base to base contact, nobody ever said you had to use hexagonal close-packing (as illustrated by the last shiny diagram). You could easily only have four models in BTB contact without having room for any more. Continue using spacing like this (because hopefully you're not dumb), and you're going to decrease the number of models in range of the blast drastically.

Heck, if you want to see how it would work out, put some models on a table and roll some dice. It won't represent statistics at all, mind you, but you'll probably get a better feel for the flow of events.

Just did this little "simulation" (again, I make no assertion that this is a good example of statistics or an average case). Vs a 31 man blob, Yriel went down on the third round of combat, with seven guardsmen left. I didn't take specific time or much consideration trying to lessen the effects of the Eye. He got 22 models with the blast, killing 19. YMMV (obviously).

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I think you need to re-read how piling-in actually works.

I read it several times, and realized that the rule is actually stupid. My bad. Not that I actually plan on following it as it is. Bad rules are bad rules, and I'm only forced to use them during tournaments where they strictly enforce interpretations.

Ailaros wrote:Right, Lycaeus is right. Once the guys that are within 6" of the assaulted model in question are in question, then you just need to move everything to within 2", after which you just move them towards. Unless you're starting the assault from like 1" away (which would be dumb, knowing this rule), then you're going to get a close combat that looks like a cone, rather than a circle.

So lame it isn't even funny. The guys can just stand there, watching the rest of their squad fight.

Now, I don't feel that you and the others are entirely right, it really seems left open to a decent amount of interpretation. The general idea in assault is that you are forced to try to get everything into combat, FORCED TO TRY. You can say if you can't then you shouldn't try, but I strongly disagree. Failing comes after trying, not before.

Forced to try to get as many models into combat, does directly suggest that you use the most efficient method of doing so, regardless if you happen to fail. Interpretation is a pretty powerful thing when wielded correctly. They are forced, they don't get a choice, that is my interpretation. If you are blocking other models from trying to get into assault range, how is that not cheating exactly? Sure, you can CALL it fair, that's cool.

I am not entirely convinced that Yriel is as good a counter as before, but bad rules aside, he certainly still is worth a try or two at the least.

It's one of my pet hates that players seem to think that an assault would actually 'wrap around' in the way you visualise it. It wouldn't happen and, in the actual rules, it cannot happen unless the Guard squad moved to surround Yriel in the preceding Movement Phase.

If I hit the center of a squad with Yriel, you're really saying to me that the Guardsmen squad would not wrap around him. Really. I mean really, really... really?

That is totally new to me, and keep in mind that I have no intention with bogging this thread down with an unrelated subject. You're right, I am wrong. Whatever.

Seriously though, I don't have a clue what you are talking about. There are several situations where you do have to wrap around Yriel, and it is one of the main benefits to using one model against a blob. I can pull that squad like a curtain, and relying on a rule that allows for what I consider no less than sanctioned cheating, is totally lame.

There is simply no way that a 6" move would allow those models to completely surround him, so the way Terminus has it visualised is far more accurate than the one above.

Oh, and due to the fact that he's a single model, there would be no need to alter the position of the Guard models in any subsequent assault phases, as any deaths would simply be removed from the 'unengaged' pool of models; any engaged ones are fine exactly where they are. This would mean that the very best you can do is either kill 3 Guard a turn for...the rest of the game, or waste your Eye klling 4-5 more.

You say that with so much confidence. Anyway, the rule is open to a decent amount of interpretation. After one round of assault the rest of the squad can just sit there waiting around? Really? I highly doubt the commissar would be very happy about that.

Oh, and to answer your question regarding price: 30-man combined PIS w/ 3 x Sergeant PWs and a Commisar PW = 225, Yriel is 155. That's only a difference of 70, and I get to hold up one of your...'killiest?' units for practically the whole game, which is exactly what I want my squad to do.

I know the price, and didn't want an answer. It is generally frowned upon to quote prices, so I try to avoid it and speak in generalities. Generally, something costing 50% more is very significant. Generally speaking getting a car that costs 10k into an accident, hurts a lot less in terms of cash, than a car that cost 15k.

EDIT: One final thing; the Guard aren't hitting Yriel on 5s, they're hitting on 4s. He's not WS7. Your maths might not be quite so shiny when you take that into consideration.

I'll take it into consideration, and I apologize for making that mistake. This has been my only mathhammer I've dropped in the thread.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Commissar hits with 2 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 2a, 1h, .5w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 4+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .38 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 3+ rr, takes .16 wounds.

.49 wounds VS. 54 wounds.

My god, will you look at the difference. (sarcasm)
It is now fixed, and seriously, that is really minimal. Others can post their mathhammer in a clear fashion, and we can all pick it apart if it is wrong. This isn't wrong, I am just not interested in explaining why it doesn't matter if Yriel is tarpitting the tarpit... because he is tarpitting the tarpit, and doing so in a very manageable way. Add mindwar and I can take shots against the commissar, ending the entire point of that blob. Just saying.

Anyway, if Yriel does suck against a blob, which I am still unconvinced of, add more about it so this thread can be a source of knowledge.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I think you need to re-read how piling-in actually works.

I read it several times, and realized that the rule is actually stupid. My bad. Not that I actually plan on following it as it is. Bad rules are bad rules, and I'm only forced to use them during tournaments where they strictly enforce interpretations.

Yep, only tournaments. And when people want to play 5th edition 40K. But other than that, yeah, go nuts with your houserule version of close combat.

No problem man, it doesn't matter.

I mean, the rule is just so goddam clear. Surprising how clear it is really.

Just like when defenders react to being assaulted, these
models move up to 6" in an attempt to move into base
contact with an enemy or, if not possible, into a
position in which they are engaged and will be able to
fight. This follows the same rules as moving assaulting
models, except that is not slowed by difficult terrain
and does not trigger dangerous terrain tests. Also, a
pile-in move may not be used to contact enemy units
that are not currently involved in the assault.

When making pile-in moves, the player whose turn it
currently is moves first. If for some reason (mass
carnage, usually), his model’s pile-in moves are
insufficient to move into base contact with any enemy
that was involved in that fight, the player must still
move them as close as possible to such enemies. The
opponent will then execute his own models’ pile-in
moves, back into contact with the enemies they were
fighting. If both units’ pile-in moves combined (that’s
more than 12" – very unlikely!) would be insufficient to
bring the combatants back together, the assault comes
to an end and both sides may make consolidation
moves instead, as described below.

As close as possible, which suggests arraying your models in a fashion that actually puts everything as close as possible to being B2B with opposing model/s. Suggests, not directly states.

That little smidgen of doubt is what you are working with. Seriously.

Wrexasaur wrote:So lame it isn't even funny. The guys can just stand there, watching the rest of their squad fight.

Now, I don't feel that you and the others are entirely right, it really seems left open to a decent amount of interpretation. The general idea in assault is that you are forced to try to get everything into combat, FORCED TO TRY. You can say if you can't then you shouldn't try, but I strongly disagree. Failing comes after trying, not before.

What the hell are you talking about? Just stand there, watching them fight? You are forced to move into melee any unengaged models, but once they are engaged (i.e. in btb or within 2" of a squadmate that is) you don't have to move them any further. With the 2" assist rule, that entire 30-man squad can get attacks against Yriel. This is especially easy if you have any HWTs in the squad.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 6 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 6a, 2h, 1w.
- Commissar hits with 2 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 2a, 1h, .5w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 4+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .38 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 3+ rr, takes .16 wounds.

.49 wounds VS. 54 wounds.

My god, will you look at the difference. (sarcasm)

Your math is as warped as your understanding of the rules. The commissar and Sgts have 12 attacks between them, and would average 3 wounds on Yriel before saves. And where are you getting this "only 10 guys get pulled in" nonsense? You yourself just quoted the appropriate rules that force you to engage if at all possible. Are we assuming the squad is super spread out and you assaulted the very itty-bitty corner?

Terminus wrote:Your math is as warped as your understanding of the rules. The commissar and Sgts have 12 attacks between them, and would average 3 wounds on Yriel before saves.

Nice.

- Yriel assaults and only 10 models are pulled into combat, we will assume all 3 Sarge, and the Commissar are within that 10.
- Yriel hits with 5 attacks on a 3+ (the majority is always going to be WS3), wounds on a 2+, instakills. 5a, 3.3h, 2.7w. Nearly 3 guard dead, not amazing.
- 3 sarge hit with 9 attacks on a 5+, wound on a 4+, ignores 3+ armor to face a 4++ rr. 9a, 4.5h, 2.25w.
- Commissar hits with 3 attacks on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, ". 3a, 1.5h, .75w.
- 6 guards hit with 6 attacks on a 4+, wound on a 4+, deals with a 3+ rr. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.
- Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 4++ rr, takes .75 wounds. Yriel takes saves against 1.5 wounds on a 3+ rr, takes .16 wounds.

.49 wounds VS. 91 wounds.

I guess that bit is actually pretty significant, and the squad actually has a good chance to deliver one wound. Not bad, it just sucks that the wound isn't going to be a PF, allowing you a chance to insta-gib Yriel. THAT would be serious, 1 standard wound @ 90% per turn... isn't. Yriel still tarpits the tarpit, which is generally as good as taking it out of commission.

And where are you getting this "only 10 guys get pulled in" nonsense? You yourself just quoted the appropriate rules that force you to engage if at all possible. Are we assuming the squad is super spread out and you assaulted the very itty-bitty corner?

I assumed that you realized I was speaking from a point which gave your argument the advantage. The squad is spread in a way (probably double linked, 1.25-1.5" spread necklace) where they somehow only getting 10 into assault, leaving the majority out of the blast, which clearly appeared to be your premise, and continues to appear to be the premise of your argument.

I gave you the advantage, and I am not going to spend 2 hours putting a serious diagram together. Maybe I will over the next couple of weeks as soon as I find time. Formations are important, but we are talking about general formations, not micro-management. I agree that micro can be a massive factor, but it is next to impossible to account for. The fact that it can make or break makes that kind of suck. There are just too many specific situations that can be brought up, to be practical in an overarching discussion.

This is a discussion involving a great deal of abstraction on every side, most tactical discussions are, none of us can predict the future for everyone reading this thread.

...

Well, I do have some experience with tarot cards.

Right, one wound if we go with your 10-model limit, and apparently also grant him a free Fortune.

And hey, even going by that, all they have to do is deal two wounds, and 50/50 his own spear eats him at the end of the game.

That is usually what happens with Yriel either way, I assume I edited that into the response to your edit, and your post was posted before you saw my post...

About your post.

a free Fortune.

Anyway, I didn't say that, I have not presented any hard points numbers as far as I know. L. Wrex did that.

My suggestion was that for LESS points, I tarpit your tarpit, and have a good chance of blowing it into pieces, depending on how you like to see the rules.

Wrexasaur wrote:I assumed that you realized I was speaking from a point which gave your argument the advantage. The squad is spread in a way (probably double linked, 1.25-1.5" spread necklace) where they somehow only getting 10 into assault, leaving the majority out of the blast, which clearly appeared to be your premise, and continues to appear to be the premise of your argument.

I gave you the advantage, and I am not going to spend 2 hours putting a serious diagram together.

So basically, you utterly failed to comprehend what I was saying.

Look at the diagram I posted. All 30 guardsmen (well, maybe all but one of them) are within 2" of a model that's in base to base with Yriel. THE ENTIRE SQUAD WILL GET TO ATTACK. Conversely, the 5" template centered on Yriel will only tag about a dozen models.

They can be in assault AND outside of the blast, that's what you're not getting it seems.

You are assuming that the squad will be in that pattern then, which is fine, but it hardly covers most situations.

You gave us a picture showing how the squad looked once it was in combat, with absolutely no explanation as to how it got to look so much like an acorn. You have a very nice diagram, but it doesn't explain the point you are trying to make, it explains that you haven't taken the time to illustrate it sufficiently. If I misunderstood, it is because you laid out a vague scenario in which guard would obviously be super-awesome. SUPER DUPER AWESOME. They have weaknesses, I am trying to figure out exactly how you are dealing with them.

How do you hide a 30-man squad from assault and flamer templates? What is your trick? If you read through what I have written previously, I countered as many points as I could, and put together a pretty good argument against your premise. I was responded to with, "You're wrong", by you specifically Terminus. That is fine, I am not particularly concerned. You were not the one to adequately make me re-think my concept. If your guard can stay out of combat because you read the rules in a certain way, and fail to address the basic points I brought up, that is fine. Your formations determine how the assault will take place, I do not feel that Yriel is insignificant at all, and I would certainly be at least mildly concerned about ending up in combat with him.

My next suggestion, rabbit, hat, out-of.

A squad of 19 Ork Sluggas, and a PK/BP nob in a BW. Not the best option I am sure, but one that can pick the blob out as a pretty ripe target. More expensive, let's be entirely clear.

Assume they get the charge, because they probably will. For the sake of my argument, I will assume they charge @ full squad strength as well, not unlikely either.

- All hit at the same time, all models are in combat, a very safe assumption. Crazy formations aside, guard hit at the same time making it a good thing to be in combat either way. Orks hit hard.
- Sluggas hit with 76 attacks, on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 76a, 50h, 33w.
- Guard hit with 27 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 5+. 27a, 13.5h, 4.5w.
- Commissar/Sarge hit with 12 attacks, wounding on a... hmm, made another mistake, my bad. All hit on a 4+, so my numbers were slightly off in the last one as well... so I was significantly wrong on that specific point, and I apologize, add 2-5% to .91 and you have the right answer.

Never mind, it was a typo. I calculated on a 4+ to hit anyway.

- Commissar/Sarge hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 5+. 12a, 6h, 2w.

- Orks take 4.5 saves @ 6+ after losing 2 models. More than 2/3 of an Ork plus 2 Orks die. 2.7 Orks are dead.
- Guard blob takes wounds on everything, plus 10% over the whole squad, spread over the guard of course. Guard take 30 saves @ 5+. 20 Guard die.
- Sarge take 3 wounds @ 5+, 2 die.

- PK Nob hits with 4 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 2+, instakilling. 4a, 2h, 1.7w. Nearly 22 guard in total die. Not amazing, but the edge appears to be taken off of the blob, and the Orks now have a pretty nice blob to sit in. Seems pretty comfortable in their guts, as long as you target them with the right units. Commonly seen units at that.

I think it's safe to say that, from a close combat perspective, guard blobs are really only vulnerable to other blobs (Orks, Hormoguants, Huge Kroot/hound units) and the rediculously death star units out there (10+ man Death Company, Seer Councils and such).

As a long time Tau players, I hate having to extract guard blobs off objectives, I usually take a dedicated anti-infantry Shas'el in my list specifically to counter 20-30 man blobs. I also take large Kroot units of 10 Kroot + 10 hounds.

One thing an Al'rahem squad should be wary of is it's rear when it comes in via outflanking. I've countered that blob twice now with an outflanking Kroot squad coming in behind Al'rahem and charging - 60 attacks on the charge creates 26 dead guardsmen.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:One thing an Al'rahem squad should be wary of is it's rear when it comes in via outflanking. I've countered that blob twice now with an outflanking Kroot squad coming in behind Al'rahem and charging - 60 attacks on the charge creates 26 dead guardsmen.

- Hounds hit with 30 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 3+. 30a, 15h, 10w.
- Guard take 10 wound on a 5+, 6.7 die. Nearly 7 guard down, we will assume this is the case.

- Kroot hit with 20 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 3+. 20a, 10h, 6.6w.
- Guard hit with 22 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 22a, 11h, 5.5w.
- Sarge/Commissar hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 12a, 6h, 3w.

- Guard take 6.6w on a 5+, 4.4 die. Nearly 11.5 guard down, we'll call it 11 to balance out the average from previous wounds.
- Kroot take 8.5 wounds all told.

That looks pretty bad IMO. I am not even sure the Kroot can tarpit them. Keep in mind that the Kroot squad, even with the hounds, is very cheap.
It may be that you were using a much larger squad, but 10 kroot and 10 hound don't get 60 attacks on the charge, and they certainly don't average 26 wounds. It would be awesome if they did, don't get me wrong.

A little off there. Both kroot and hounds get three attacks on charge because kroot rifles are two close combat weapons. Weapon skill 4 hits WS3 on a 3+. Twenty guys of any sort will be throwing out 60 attacks, two thirds hit, two thirds wound, two thirds fail save (just like when Marine hit you, though obviously they don't take a beating like marines). 60 times 8/27 = 17 and some more. How many losses they take back depends on how many hounds are there. If no hounds the guard throw back something like 32 attacks divide by 4 equals 8. Kroot wipe the Guard out two assault phases later.

Assuming a just a command squad and two infantry squads with one commissar. A larger platoon would obviously kill more kroot.

My bad, I didn't check the weapons rules. Made a mistake on the WS, fixed now. Need sleep.

- Hounds hit with 30 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 30a, 20h, 13.2w.
- Guard take 13.2 wound on a 5+, 8.7 die. Nearly 9 guard down, we will assume this is the case.

- Kroot hit with 30 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 30a, 20h, 13.2w.
- Guard hit with 18 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 18a, 9h, 4.5w.
- Sarge/Commissar hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 12a, 6h, 3w.

- Guard take 13.2w on a 5+, 8.7 die. Nearly 18 guard down.
- Kroot take 8 wounds all told.

Let's get 26 wounds though, I bet it will be cheaper than the blob. 12 hounds, 20 kroot. That is a really solid chunk of firepower to boot, but we don't need to factor it.

- Hounds hit with 36 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 36a, 24h, 18w.
- Guard take 18 wounds on a 5+, 12 die.

- Kroot hit with 60 attacks on a 3+, wounding on a 3+. 60a, 40h, 26w.
- Guard hit with 15 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 15a, 7.5h, 3.75w.
- Sarge/Commissar hit with 12 attacks on a 4+, wounding on a 4+. 12a, 6h, 3w.

- Guard take 26w on a 5+, 17 die. All told, around 29 guard die.
- Kroot take 6.75 wounds all told, nearly 7 Kroot die.

That isn't bad, but you're definitely going to have to take a few shots to make 26 wounds possible. That means you need to take two turns to make 26 wounds happen. Don't get me wrong, the price is right, Kroot are pretty cost effective. Since they can outflank, and assault if targets are pushed towards the edge of the board, I think 21 wounds for the cost of 20 Kroot and 12 Hounds is a pretty good option. Nix that, those guard are toast against a large Kroot squad. A smaller squad doesn't seem to have enough punch, but they are cheap enough to toss into combat either way. The commissar is going to be standing on his lonesome facing down the large Kroot squad, as he probably has a moderate chance of survival as the last man standing. Awesome, no better way for a commissar to die.

- 40 shots @ BS3, wounds on a 3+. 40a, 20h, 13.2w.
- Guards save on a 5+, 8.7 die. On 4+ from cover, 6.6 die.

Definitely assault them if you can, shooting is worthless in comparison.

the point is that Kroot and Orks and Hormoguants can do the same thing that your blob squad does in assault which is they don't care how many die because they'll just soak it up. 10 Kroot and 10 hounds on the charge will (assuming average rolls) destroy a 30 man blob squad. It takes about 3 assault phases, but they basically almost double their points back. lActually, Tau are one of the lists I would say that blob guard have a problem with...

Wrexasaur wrote:You are assuming that the squad will be in that pattern then, which is fine, but it hardly covers most situations. You gave us a picture showing how the squad looked once it was in combat, with absolutely no explanation as to how it got to look so much like an acorn.

You have a very nice diagram, but it doesn't explain the point you are trying to make, it explains that you haven't taken the time to illustrate it sufficiently. If I misunderstood, it is because you laid out a vague scenario in which guard would obviously be super-awesome. SUPER DUPER AWESOME. They have weaknesses, I am trying to figure out exactly how you are dealing with them.

It's not a stretch to assume that a bubblewrap squad would be in a loose formation where it covers as much ground as possible, while not spreading so far that they can't focus their fire or properly screen whatever it is they're babysitting.



Look again at that diagram. Now move every guardsman 6" away from Yriel in various directions (except the one he charged, of course, and see how much area they can cover. The point I was making was not that guard squads are super awesome (although granted they are pretty damn awesome), but rather that Yriel would get his ass handed to him if he tried to charge one by his lonesome (and assuming a T3 elf can safely cross the board by his lonesome is far more a stretch than "this guard squad is spread out a bit").

Of course they have weaknesses. They are guardsmen, and they die very easily. Where others turn to armor to keep safe, they rely on numbers to soak casualties. So if you introduce a sufficient volume of attacks to cancel out that numeric advantage, they suddenly start dying in droves all over again. So this means: A. templates, and B. other mobbed squads.

How do you hide a 30-man squad from assault and flamer templates? What is your trick?

You don't need to hide from assaults. As for flamer templates, there isn't much you can do about them; if they get in range, they are killing droves of guardsmen. Your only recourse is to either kill the flamers before they get there, or take it on the chin and kill them with the survivors.

If you read through what I have written previously, I countered as many points as I could, and put together a pretty good argument against your premise. I was responded to with, "You're wrong", by you specifically Terminus. If your guard can stay out of combat because you read the rules in a certain way, and fail to address the basic points I brought up, that is fine.

I'm not keeping my guard out of combat, I'm using the 2" assist rule to its fullest so I can get as many models in combat as possible against a small opponent. So your points are deficient, your argument is non-existent, and you are indeed wrong. You whined about how "lame" the rules are and then drew up a bit of mathhammer (that was both irrelevant AND incorrect).

And yes, mobs of Boyz are more than a match for Guardsmen.

Terminus wrote:It's not a stretch to assume that a bubblewrap squad would be in a loose formation where it covers as much ground as possible, while not spreading so far that they can't focus their fire or properly screen whatever it is they're babysitting.

So show me, I can't figure out how you got that result, it doesn't make sense. Take screen shots of that happening, or use real models and photos so I can get what point you are making. Either the squad has a few models within blast range, or it has a lot within blast range. Those two scenarios are determined by where I assault the squad with Yriel.

You need to explain point A. to point B. here.

Look again at that diagram.

Put together a better diagram explaining your point, instead of assuming you are right. I am saying that you are talking about a VERY specific formation to get those results. Frankly, I am not even sure it is possible to have a combat look like that. You can choose to make it look like that, but I certainly can't see why it would. You are saying is it because it is. Great.

I agree with the suggestion made by someone earlier in the thread, that the combat would look much like a cone in many situations. That acorn layout just doesn't seem possible.

In case anyone was confused by my diagram, I EXPLICITLY stated that it was in response to the premise that only 22 models can ever get caught under the blast, maximum. That was wrong, and I put together a diagram explaining why.

Terminus wrote:The absolute maximum amount his large template (which is centered on him) could possibly hit is 22 models, if he is completely enveloped from all sides.

Not quite...



If you don't feel like counting it is 30 models aside Yriel in the center. 30 MODELS, NOT 22.

This diagram explains that 30 models maximum can be caught under the template, and that was what it was in direct response to. This conversation has made a rather large turn into YMDC territory, in a way that I feel has now taken the thread reasonably OT. I apologize for being at least partly the cause of that.

Now move every guardsman 6" away from Yriel in various directions (except the one he charged, of course, and see how much area they can cover. The point I was making was not that guard squads are super awesome (although granted they are pretty damn awesome), but rather that Yriel would get his ass handed to him if he tried to charge one by his lonesome (and assuming a T3 elf can safely cross the board by his lonesome is far more a stretch than "this guard squad is spread out a bit").

I have no idea why that would be a problem either. Heck, I could probably tank shock that blob before dropping Yriel off into combat, and I don't even need a WS just for him.

I disagree that Yriel would get owned, and I think it would be a pretty interesting match, as long as we both agree on what specific rules are intended for.

Of course they have weaknesses. They are guardsmen, and they die very easily. Where others turn to armor to keep safe, they rely on numbers to soak casualties. So if you introduce a sufficient volume of attacks to cancel out that numeric advantage, they suddenly start dying in droves all over again. So this means: A. templates, and B. other mobbed squads.

That is all I was pointing out, and I still think Yriel is worth more testing.

I'm not keeping my guard out of combat, I'm using the 2" assist rule to its fullest so I can get as many models in combat as possible against a small opponent. So your points are deficient, your argument is non-existent, and you are indeed wrong.

You are using the 2" assist rule while ignoring that you have to move as many of them as possible into B2B. There are few scenarios that play out as you suggest, and I think it is quite possible that you are simply cheating. Now, I am trying to explain to you that I feel you're wrong, because the rules seem to support what I am trying to say.

2 inches from a model in combat, I am sure that you could get a great deal of them into combat, but not without opening yourself up to a large blast. I may have overestimated Yriels ability to deliver that blast and wipe the squad in one turn, no problem, I have already conceded that point. What it sounds like though, is that you are using rules to your advantage, that aren't meant to be used to your advantage, they are meant to put you at a disadvantage. By what sounds like blocking several of your own models from getting into B2B contact, it appears like no more than cheating. I didn't realize that no holding back, meant that you could actually hold back a little bit. You are forced into putting as many models as close as possible, so the rest of the squad can also get into combat. This to me, does no less that give you every advantage where you shouldn't have any. Assaults are not meant to be friendly to those that are assaulted, if I got anything from the assault section, that was certainly it.

You whined about how "lame" the rules are and then drew up a bit of mathhammer (that was both irrelevant AND incorrect).

My mathhammer was messy yesterday, I should not have been working with numbers with so little sleep, I apologise. I actually noticed another mistake I made, and in the future I will take any steps I can to avoid those mistakes. Apologies.

I explained that the rule had open ends, and many rules in WH40k ARE badly written, there are no two ways about that. I still think that the bit you were talking about, which does not cover the majority of what I was talking about, is a very flimsy point to rest your argument on. You haven't even clarified that, besides saying "read da rules" a few times. I suggest that we take this discussion to YMDC where it belongs.

Here is the thread.

So..... i guess that Yriel is good at killing blob squads......

I would tend to think they'd cancel each other out. yriel will kill most of the guardsmen with his blast, but the few that survive will be commisars and officers no? then they'd cut him down with their power weapons? does yriel have an invuln save? dont have the codex
AF

yes Yriel has a 4++ save (force shield)

vs 3 guys with power weapons that's cutting it awfully close.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:vs 3 guys with power weapons that's cutting it awfully close.

It is going to be 3 sarge and a commissar if am not mistaken, in a blob of 27 guardsmen. That seems to be the general consensus on putting your blobs together, aside preference for slightly smaller or larger squads (plus or minus one infantry squad).

Yriel can gain fortune for a rr on any save.

How well he does depends a lot on how much of the blob can get hit by his blast, and how much can assault while avoiding the blast entirely. Let's say 15 get hit by the blast, and all can assault for some reason, I won't even think about how that would be possible for now. Yriel + fortune costs roughly 80-85% of the IG blobs cost, assuming all the squad has taken is 4 PW.

- Yriel attacks first with the blast, hitting 15 models, wounding and killing around 12.5 guard. 12 or less half of the time, 13-15 the other half.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 15 guard attack. 15a, 7.5h, 3.75w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 3.75w against a 3+ rr. 3.75w, .4w

There is a very good chance in this situation for Yriel to take at least one wound, with a noticable chance to take a second. Basically a 115% chance to get wounded once.

The next Turn might look a lot like this.

- Yriel hits first with 4 attacks. 4a, 2.65h, 2.2w. Two dead guardsmen, with the chance to kill a third.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 13 guard attack. 13a, 6.5h, 3.25w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 3.25w against a 3+ rr. 3.25w, .35w

There is a very good chance in this situation for Yriel to take at least one wound, with a noticeable chance to take a second. Basically a 110% chance to get wounded once.

He is nearly dead in this combat, if we do in fact assume that the squad only gets 15 models hit, but all models can assault. Not to say that killing upwards of 2/3 of the squad, while locking it down for 2-3 turns is bad. That is pretty substantial even by itself.

...

Since I can find many situations where that is unlikely to happen, I will add in what I feel is the more likely situation. I might have done this before, but doubling up isn't a terrible idea, as my math was kind of wonky the other day. Yriel hits 25 in the blast. The whole blob can assault.

- Yriel attacks first with the blast, hitting 25 models, wounding and killing around 20.75 guard. 21-25 more than half the time, 20 or less the other half.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 6 guard attack. 6a, 3h, 1.5w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 1.5w against a 3+ rr. 1.5w, .16w

There is a good chance in this situation for Yriel to take at least one wound. Basically a 90% chance to get wounded once. Yriel has killed in the area of 2/3 of the squad in the first round of combat. The squad locks itself into combat for the next turn.

- Yriel hits first with 4 attacks. 4a, 2.65h, 2.2w. Two dead guardsmen, with the chance to kill a third.

- Comm/Sarges attack with 12 PWs. 12a, 6h, 3w.
- 4 guard attack. 4a, 2h, 1w.

- Yriel takes 3w against a 4++ rr. 3w, .75w.
- Yriel takes 1w against a 3+ rr. 1w, .10w

Yriels' been wound once, with a pretty good chance for a second wound. Basically a 175% chance to get wounded once, alternatively, 100% to wound once, 75% for the second wound. At this point, it does seem like much the tie, yet Yriel has filled his role of locking the blob down and the squad is easily cleaned up by something else at this point. Having some dire avengers around to back Yriel up in an emergency is also a good idea. They can take a turn from doing something else if Yriel drops to the blob in the 2nd-3rd round of combat. This is why I love the Defend/SS combo on DA, you can reduce the number of PW attacks on the squad, AND get an invuln. As long as the DA can wipe the rest of the squad, it is likely to be very near to the end of the game at this point.

I think that Yriel can generally manage to neutralize the blob during important parts of the game, and the DA are just a way to finish the squad off if it manages to remain a threat after Yriel is gone, which he may not be, dying only because of Doomed, which is not a massive threat overall. It does happen more than I would like though, and it the second easiest way to lose Yriel besides insta-death from PF/PK and such.

Wrexasaur wrote:Put together a better diagram explaining your point, instead of assuming you are right. I am saying that you are talking about a VERY specific formation to get those results. Frankly, I am not even sure it is possible to have a combat look like that. You can choose to make it look like that, but I certainly can't see why it would. You are saying is it because it is. Great.

I was at first going to just laugh this off as a sad attempt at a troll...

But then I read this...

Wrexasaur wrote:Basically a 115% chance
Basically a 110% chance

Now I'm obligated to help you, because my girlfriend works with the slowed, and she'd be mad if I just laughed at you. So here we go, with big pretty pictures:

Let's first review page 35 and 40 of the rulebook. The first picture relays the rules for moving in assault. The second tells us who can fight. Especially take note of the little illustration on the right that shows gretchin (dark grey ones) engaged with the marines while being nowhere near them. Now onwards to thrilling adventures in the 40K universe! *cue 60s Batman music*

The first is of an infantry platoon in a general formation for a blob. I just plopped models down with no consideration except to stay in coherency while not clumping up too much for templates. Yriel charges in! *bang, zap, wowzers*

Next we see the movement of every guardsman that can reach his base (image 4). Then I've activated 2" rings around the guardsmen to mark the area that is eligible for combat per page 40. Then because Vassal doesn't have an 8" ring, I put a bunch of 6" rulers to see which guardsmen can get in on that hot elf action. Looks like in my haste to get this over with, I've left two guys out of the fun (image 5). The sixth and final image shows the end result: I didn't have to worry about fitting the last two guys, so the end result is kind of messy, but at least it was faster and now Yriel's blast is hitting only 10.

For another example of this maneuver, see here:



Now someone please teach this man probability before he hurts himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrexasaur wrote:Fair enough, I don't disagree, but since you do remove models that are out of base to base combat, any PWs left outside of base contact are very likely to take a wound, and die as a result.

And another thing, this is utter nonsense. You remove casualties in assault just like you do in shooting, you pull them from wherever the hell you want among the models you allocated to. So your opponent could easily allocate wounds to any of the regulars with no risk to the PWs at all, until you've literally killed practically all of the grunts.

So yes, my previous advice to "just read the rules" is still quite valid.

Wrex
yeah if he's fortuned he'll probably live through it.

Terminatus
If you take the 15 or so guys in the back and put them up in the front I feel this gives a more accurate representation of what yriel is likely to charge. this is because guard players will naturally want to have their models within rapid fire range of the enemy where their lasguns can have the most benefit. that's going to result in 5-10 more guys getting caught in the blast.

you said: You remove casualties in assault just like you do in shooting, you pull them from wherever the hell you want among the models you allocated to. So your opponent could easily allocate wounds to any of the regulars with no risk to the PWs at all, until you've literally killed practically all of the grunts.

yeah you're obviously right about that. the guys with the power weapons will be the last to die.

AF