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Terminus wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Put together a better diagram explaining your point, instead of assuming you are right. I am saying that you are talking about a VERY specific formation to get those results. Frankly, I am not even sure it is possible to have a combat look like that. You can choose to make it look like that, but I certainly can't see why it would. You are saying is it because it is. Great.

I was at first going to just laugh this off as a sad attempt at a troll...

I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to insult me.

But then I read this...

Wrexasaur wrote:Basically a 115% chance
Basically a 110% chance

Now I'm obligated to help you, because my girlfriend works with the slowed, and she'd be mad if I just laughed at you. So here we go, with big pretty pictures:

Again, what is the purpose of these statements? You could have easily left them out, sticking to the actual conversation instead of attempting to reinforce your arguments with direct insults against me.

Let's first review page 35 and 40 of the rulebook. The first picture relays the rules for moving in assault. The second tells us who can fight. Especially take note of the little illustration on the right that shows gretchin (dark grey ones) engaged with the marines while being nowhere near them. Now onwards to thrilling adventures in the 40K universe! *cue 60s Batman music*

The first is of an infantry platoon in a general formation for a blob. I just plopped models down with no consideration except to stay in coherency while not clumping up too much for templates. Yriel charges in! *bang, zap, wowzers*

Note that I enjoy sarcasm, so I hardly hold this bit against you.

Next we see the movement of every guardsman that can reach his base (image 4). Then I've activated 2" rings around the guardsmen to mark the area that is eligible for combat per page 40. Then because Vassal doesn't have an 8" ring, I put a bunch of 6" rulers to see which guardsmen can get in on that hot elf action. Looks like in my haste to get this over with, I've left two guys out of the fun (image 5). The sixth and final image shows the end result: I didn't have to worry about fitting the last two guys, so the end result is kind of messy, but at least it was faster and now Yriel's blast is hitting only 10.

I appreciate your input on this point, even if I still disagree that the situation you set up represents the majority of what would be expected on the table. Anyway, it certainly seems like I have disrupted whatever plan that blob had in the first place, just by having Yriel on the field. Interesting.

Now someone please teach this man probability before he hurts himself.

You clearly enjoy demeaning people, and 1/4 can easily be illustrated as 25%. That same concept applies to all odds/probabilities.

Wrexasaur wrote:Fair enough, I don't disagree, but since you do remove models that are out of base to base combat, any PWs left outside of base contact are very likely to take a wound, and die as a result.

And another thing, this is utter nonsense. You remove casualties in assault just like you do in shooting, you pull them from wherever the hell you want among the models you allocated to. So your opponent could easily allocate wounds to any of the regulars with no risk to the PWs at all, until you've literally killed practically all of the grunts.

More insults. It is not utter nonsense, you just assume that at no point is it possible to force more wounds than the squad can handle. You ignore that possibility.

'Very likely' was probably a poor choice of words. I would rephrase that to say 'Not unlikely'.

So yes, my previous advice to "just read the rules" is still quite valid.

My question was answered clearly in the YMDC thread I set up for this, which you avoided to attack me personally in this thread.

Wrexasaur wrote:Again, what is the purpose of these statements? You could have easily left them out, sticking to the actual conversation instead of attempting to reinforce your arguments with direct insults against me.

Fair enough, I apologize, it's just that it's annoying to repeat myself several times and then create a bunch of diagrams for you to understand a very simple concept.

My question was answered clearly in the YMDC thread I set up for this, and which you avoided to attackcorrect me personally in this thread.

I didn't see the other thread, and I corrected you in this one because you were wrong in this one. But again, my apologies for "attacking" you, and I hope they were successful in teaching you the assault rules.

You clearly enjoy demeaning people, and 1/4 can easily be illustrated as 25%. That same concept applies to all odds/probabilities.

Statistical average does not equate probability of multiple dice rolls, and yes 0.25 average wounds does not equate a 25% chance to cause a wound. Often when using just a few rolls, it's close enough to be adequate as an estimate, but you're saying 5/4 means 125%. How can you succeed all the time and then some? Think about it.

It is not utter nonsense, you just assume that at no point is it possible to force more wounds than the squad can handle. You ignore that possibility.

That's because it IS nonsense.Let's say Yriel tags 15 guys with his blast and annihilates the whole lot. That leaves 16 models. Yriel has 4 attacks. Even if he wounds and kills with every single attack it will take him three full turns of hacking through grunts before he's rolling against the power weapons. That's if he doesn't die from the 84 attacks from the guardsmen he'll have received at that point (which averages about to about 4 wounds over three turns). And hey, I'd love to have a Farseer just hanging out six inches away from a rolling melee casting fortune on Yriel. One guard platoon tie up Yriel and a Farseer for 3+ turns? Score!

The idea that throwing HQs away to deal with a single guard mob is somehow a good plan is ludicrous to begin with. How about some Guided Warwalkers with scatter lasers, or some Fire Prisms, or even those Nightspinners that just came out? Then you not only kill a bunch of dudes, you also hinder the rest with a big splotch of dangerous terrain. If you just want to tie them up, a 100 Wraithlord with a pair of flamers would probably kill just as many without ever being at risk.

Jaon wrote:I was under the impression that a 10 man assault squad would kill a HEAP of them.

Then use the rest of your army to ensure that assault squad doesn't make it with ten marines.

Assault marines can't attack on turn one if you deploy right, after all.

Terminus wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Again, what is the purpose of these statements? You could have easily left them out, sticking to the actual conversation instead of attempting to reinforce your arguments with direct insults against me.

Fair enough, I apologize, it's just that it's annoying to repeat myself several times and then create a bunch of diagrams for you to understand a very simple concept.

I still don't consider it simple, and I have certainly never faced an opponent that was so intent on blocking his own models from getting into combat. What you are suggesting is that you can, and you are right, the rules do appear to support it. This was a rather specific situation, that I am not even sure all of it applies to any other assault, seeing as you won't encounter any other combat blasts, to the best of my knowledge. Overall, you were correct though, even if I still consider the potential for what you suggest to be questionable on some levels.

This has definitely been a learning experience, even if I got the substance of my answer from the YMDC thread.

My question was answered clearly in the YMDC thread I set up for this, and which you avoided to attackcorrect me personally in this thread.

I didn't see the other thread, and I corrected you in this one because you were wrong in this one. But again, my apologies for "attacking" you, and I hope they were successful in teaching you the assault rules.

My experience is not vast, and I have never suggested it to be so substantial that I know the rules up, down, and sideways. The problem is that I have never experienced someone working combat like you are laying out. It certainly allows you to block yourself from entering combat with a significant portion of your models. It is really a matter of one rule, overriding another, and IMO the spirit of assaults in general. I am certainly free to maintain that position.

You clearly enjoy demeaning people, and 1/4 can easily be illustrated as 25%. That same concept applies to all odds/probabilities.

Statistical average does not equate probability of multiple dice rolls, and yes 0.25 average wounds does not equate a 25% chance to cause a wound. Often when using just a few rolls, it's close enough to be adequate as an estimate, but you're saying 5/4 means 125%.

I'm not actually saying 125%, I am saying 99.999...% plus 25.000...1%. If I say 125%, it means that over the course of 4 turns, you're quite likely to inflict 5 wounds.

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58166.html

While 4/3rds of a cake may not exist, the potential for it will always exist. If you are talking about eating 4/3rds of one cake, you are actually talking about eating a whole cake plus a third of another cake. It could be considered confusing, but it has more to do with the context, than the actual use of the percentage notation.

How can you succeed all the time and then some? Think about it.

25% equals one wound over 4 turns. Thought about it.

It is not utter nonsense, you just assume that at no point is it possible to force more wounds than the squad can handle. You ignore that possibility.

That's because it IS nonsense.Let's say Yriel tags 15 guys with his blast and annihilates the whole lot. That leaves 16 models. Yriel has 4 attacks. Even if he wounds and kills with every single attack it will take him three full turns of hacking through grunts before he's rolling against the power weapons. That's if he doesn't die from the 84 attacks from the guardsmen he'll have received at that point (which averages about to about 4 wounds over three turns).

Saying that he will always hit 15 models, or 11 models, or 22 models doesn't stop him from having the potential to hit and wound more than 27. You have to make decisions in order for it to be impossible, so it isn't nonsense to simply suggest the possibility.

And hey, I'd love to have a Farseer just hanging out six inches away from a rolling melee casting fortune on Yriel. One guard platoon tie up Yriel and a Farseer for 3+ turns? Score!

This could be a problem, no doubt. It depends on my options though, the simple fact that I CAN use Yriel + fortune, and from my perspective in an effective way, certainly leaves the option on the table. Heck, the very mention of him made you incredibly defensive. That in and of itself is something to take note of.

The idea that throwing HQs away to deal with a single guard mob is somehow a good plan is ludicrous to begin with. How about some Guided Warwalkers with scatter lasers, or some Fire Prisms, or even those Nightspinners that just came out? Then you not only kill a bunch of dudes, you also hinder the rest with a big splotch of dangerous terrain. If you just want to tie them up, a 100 Wraithlord with a pair of flamers would probably kill just as many without ever being at risk.

If I bring Yriel, and he has several targets to choose from, I might just attack that blob because doing so has many indirect benefits. You may think that the Farseer is doing nothing but assisting Yriel, but that is not always going to be true. The farseer can multi-task, and if I feel like bringing Eldrad, he can juggle different roles all day long.

Strengths and weakness is what I try to focus on. On the table, it is quite possible for me to drop 5-10 wounds into the squad through various means, then to use Yriel when they are vulnerable, in order to completely neutralize them.

If I may poke my head in, grey knight holocaust is an ordnance template in melee too.

Are there more? S5 is cool, AP- is lame, but the awesome part seems to be the how it isn't stuck centered over the psyker. That is pretty cool though.

The concept is very cool and it would seem that both templates, plus any others that might exist, could do a great deal of damage against swarms.

the nightbringer has his gaze of death, and they can't physically hurt him

Aura of Decay? You can only use it in your own shooting phase but you can still do it when locked in combat. It's also only S2 Ap-, but the range is 6".

Wrexasaur wrote:My experience is not vast, and I have never suggested it to be so substantial that I know the rules up, down, and sideways. The problem is that I have never experienced someone working combat like you are laying out. It certainly allows you to block yourself from entering combat with a significant portion of your models. It is really a matter of one rule, overriding another, and IMO the spirit of assaults in general. I am certainly free to maintain that position.

Wow, just wow. You're still not getting it. I'm not blocking myself from getting into combat at all, all of my models are getting into melee (except in the latest example two didn't reach it because it was thrown together sloppily and most of the guys were at max coherency and very spread out). What I'm doing is using the assault rules to mitigate how many models you can hit with that template. Try any formation you've seen on the table, and if anything it will be easier to mitigate the wounds. My whole objection stemmed from your ridiculous example where Yriel somehow magically teleported right into the center of the squad, and opponent obliges you by packing in all the models as tight as possible (and apparently also playing with just the bases so there are no arms or weapons to interfere with flawless btb positioning.

I'm not actually saying 125%, I am saying 99.999...% plus 25.000...1%. If I say 125%, it means that over the course of 4 turns, you're quite likely to inflict 5 wounds.

25% equals one wound over 4 turns. Thought about it.

You're talking gibberish again.

Heck, the very mention of him made you incredibly defensive. That in and of itself is something to take note of.

You are mistaking incredulity for defensiveness. Your idea was stupid, shockingly so, and all I did was say as much. Anyway, have fun with your 4/3rds of a cake, I'm going to bow out now before I'm obliged to insult your intelligence again.

Actually we'd prefer it if you didn't insult people's intelliegnce at all, let alone further.

I appreciate it can be very frustrating when debating an issue such as this, but cracks to do with people being slowed and the like are over the line. Please refrain making comments like that in future.

Thanks, mod. Next time someone wants to drag a thread into the magma at the centre of the earth, I hope they do the right thing make a new one early on. I keep thinking there will be some more analysis of IG Blob Squads, what with 6 pages to the thread.

One thing I've noticed about my commieblob is that it's not really the best bubblewrap. As soon as it gets in combat, it often blocks a good chunk of my army from firing through it. Also, I want my bubblewrap to break so that I can shoot at what was assaulting it. Furthermore, when the blob 'piles in' during combat, it pulls men away from where I wanted bubblewrap. 10 man squads work better for this. Just an observation from a guy who loves bubblewrap, but who also wants the tarpit option on the table. I've yet to try the full-on power-blob, it seems like a major investment that could be tarpitted itself. By Yriel - just joking, DON'T GO THERE!

If you want your bubble to break, you just allocate a wound to the Commissar and off they go.

Wrexasaur wrote:
Yriel just took less than half a wound, while delivering three. He won't do much damage with regular attacks, but the next turn spells complete doom for the rest of the squad. Their only hope is Yriel rolling a crap-ton of ones. Sure, they can lock him down for 2-3 turns, but I prefer to think of it as Yriel having a great time stuck inside the squad, wading around in the guts of the guardsmen he has torn into pieces.

congrats you can kill 15 points of guardsmen with your "super" unit?

It's sometimes tough to do because guard have crazy shooting...but a venerable dreadnought assaulting a blob squad is a pretty effective way of holding up the super expensive squad indefinitely. If he does have a way to pop it, it's probably with a meltabomb. Use venerable to try to get vehicle explodes result.

The tricky part is getting a dread into hth with a blob squad...fortunately a smoked ven dread is tough as nails.

Also, when it's 50 guardsman, it's hard to get at the comissar. However, if you knock down the squad to about 30 models, an assault squad shooting and charging in will have enough attacks to allocate on the comissar in the 2nd turn of combat...that is the guard player's turn.
You don't want to overshoot before charging.

Also, sgt. telion can single out models. So can some psychic powers (Ezekiel's, chaos has one, space wolves, etc.) Kill the comissar, and the blob squad isn't stubborn.

Considering the expense of a blob squad, that's game over.

The"Power Blobs" I faced tended to have the Priest w/Eviscerator buried in there as well... Not a guarantee of course, but it should take down a DN, or at least be a threat to it... Me, I use Commissars with Power fists :-)

Terminus wrote:If you want your bubble to break, you just allocate a wound to the Commissar and off they go.

Pretty expensive bubble. I can't imagine planning for that, it would be like an emergency measure, no?

scuddman wrote:Also, sgt. telion can single out models. So can some psychic powers (Ezekiel's, chaos has one, space wolves, etc.) Kill the comissar, and the blob squad isn't stubborn.

Considering the expense of a blob squad, that's game over.

Eldar can use mind war as well.

I really don't think you will lose a game if you lose the squad, unless you have made the squad into a points sink. Nearly every single transport based Eldar unit is more than 200 points all told. Losing one tank+squad does not equal losing a game automatically. It may hurt your plans quite a bit, but at the very least you can definitely still pull off a tie at least in many situations. Hopefully the blob won't lose the commissar, then do nothing at all. They can still serve as pretty solid bubblewrap, and they still aren't much more expensive than bubblewrap you would find in another army. You will usually have to kill at least 2 sarges after killing the commissar to drop the squad to a risky Ld 7.

It won't end the game if you kill the commissar, heck it may not even help at all in the first place. Ld 8 is hardly all that bad, but assaults will be rough... so your opponent will probably start shooting the blob instead.

The advantage of the commissar is not the high leadership (although it helps) it is the fact that he confers stubborn and a re-roll. Suddenly, assualting 20-30 guardsmen isn't so daunting if you think you can break them in the first round.

I understand that and was pointing out the fact that it doesn't always matter. If you take out the commissar at range somehow, or your opponent decides that whatever may assault them the next turn will wreck their plans, losing the commissar is not an insta-fix.

Perhaps you kill the commissar, or your opponent takes a wound on him from shooting (and you need two solid wounds if I am not mistaken guess not), it may end up that Ld 8 wasn't fragile enough to work in the first place. I think the main reason where this could be an issue is if you need to contest a flag, not hold it, and your unit (who will not win OR lose combat, and has a good chance to tie) is better off jumping into the blob on the last turn or something.

Losing the commissar does not guarantee that whatever you had intended will in fact be the case. It is certainly possible that it could backfire.

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

I got everything you said right up until this point. Do you WANT the Blob squad to flee?

It depends on whether your opponent wants it to flee. Does it benefit you (the opposing army) in certain ways for that squad to have a commissar? Sure, I would guess that there are more than a few situations where it could be beneficial. Same goes for any Ld save above a 7. It could be a good thing that the squad doesn't flee and if the IG player WANTS the commissar dead, it is a safe bet that you don't want it dead.

I would consider popping a commissar to be a bit of a last ditch effort to avoid providing cover/immunity from shooting. All I am saying is that popping the commissar is not an end all fix to running from assault. Ork boys assaulting is probably a good example of a unit that would rather you kept the commissar around, but one standard wound can also be saved 1/3 of the time. Commissar saves a wound taken from the Ork sluggas, then takes a wound from a PK nob, dying as a result. If the first part of combat (Ini 3) was a tie, not saying that is likely vs. Orks, the one wound that killed the commissar only lowers your Ld to 7. That SHOULD be enough but dropping Ld 7 to 6 is a much safer bet. The sarge's can keep that squad in combat with or without a commissar. If all of the sarge are dead, guardsmen make pretty crappy leaders. You need to lose all sarge's and the commissar at the same time to make an even combat favor your ability to have a reliable 'off' button on the squad.

If there are PWs around that last bit isn't really an issue, your opponent just needs a solid wound.

I'm saying it isn't always as simple as getting rid of the commissar.

I just don't get why...

You will regularly lose combat with Ld7 tests, Ld8 is better and you have multiple Ld8's in the blob. Kroot and gretchin are fantastic examples of collapsible bubble-wrap, where IG blobs are less so.

I am not saying that it won't work a good deal of the time. I'm not sure where I wasn't clear about that. You do however need to face a PW wound to reliably get rid of the commissar. Those aren't terribly hard to find, but I assume that the commissar isn't always going to be deciding what assaults the squad.

I'm saying it isn't always as simple as getting rid of the commissar. 'Always' assumes every situation will provide you the opportunity to make use of that tactic.

The loss of a commissar doesn't gurantee anything...but it removes the blob squad's advantage of being a tarpit. Once the commissar is dead, the squad is no longer stubborn, so cc is modified by wounds again.

Generally a blob squad wins CC by attrittion and hidden power weapon wounds. An assault squad charging in will now lose some models but are pretty much guranteed to sweeping advance.

Leadership 8 no rerolls is also fairly weak to tank shock.

pchappel wrote:The"Power Blobs" I faced tended to have the Priest w/Eviscerator buried in there as well... Not a guarantee of course, but it should take down a DN, or at least be a threat to it... Me, I use Commissars with Power fists :-)

The Commissars in the Infantry Squads (and therefore be buried in blobs) can't take Power Fists, only the ones in the PCS can (or Lord Commissars). There aren't really enough wounds in a PCS to protect a PF, and a Lord Commissar can be singled out by being an IC. I'm now trying the idea of an Eviscerator, plus I have one squad with Krak and Melta in case of enemy armor.

i've seen Melta bombs on Sgts mentioned a couple of times. is it worth it to buy the Blob Krak grenades as well?
it would help with Sentinels and Dreadnoughts. and would be a pretty good chance of earning some points back. rolling 6 + d6,
20-30 times, is bound to blow something up.

ElCheezus wrote:

pchappel wrote:The"Power Blobs" I faced tended to have the Priest w/Eviscerator buried in there as well... Not a guarantee of course, but it should take down a DN, or at least be a threat to it... Me, I use Commissars with Power fists :-)

The Commissars in the Infantry Squads (and therefore be buried in blobs) can't take Power Fists, only the ones in the PCS can (or Lord Commissars). There aren't really enough wounds in a PCS to protect a PF, and a Lord Commissar can be singled out by being an IC. I'm now trying the idea of an Eviscerator, plus I have one squad with Krak and Melta in case of enemy armor.

I run the PCS with the LT, 4 special weapons and the Commisar w/ fist nearby to help out... Priests, while IC's seem like they help out alot, just haven't gotten anything like that dug up from the basement...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:i've seen Melta bombs on Sgts mentioned a couple of times. is it worth it to buy the Blob Krak grenades as well?
it would help with Sentinels and Dreadnoughts. and would be a pretty good chance of earning some points back. rolling 6 + d6,
20-30 times, is bound to blow something up.

As long as it isn't an Ironclad or Furioso DN... Oops, I need a 7 on the d6...

pchappel wrote: As long as it isn't an Ironclad or Furioso DN... Oops, I need a 7 on the d6...

or you then use the afore mentioned Melta bombs...

Any IG blob will likely have a CCS with a standard nearby, so they will get a re-roll regardless (even at Ld7 they will still have a 75% success rate). Killing the Commissar gets rid of Stubborn, which makes them easier to break in close combat. Period.


And running Commissars in command squads is hilariously silly.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

Stubborn Ld9 rr's are not always a good thing, but Ld 8 can present some of the same problems. Ld 7 much less.

I got everything you said right up until this point. Do you WANT the Blob squad to flee?

Yes, sometimes you do want the blob to flee. Example, in a recent tourney my opponent attached Shrike to an assault squad and when they came in from the flank, they killed a huge number of the 30-man blob. I crunched the numbers (before I attacked back even) and decided that it was quite likely he would completely finish the remnats in the next round of hth, ir during MY turn, leaving his assault unit free to move and do it all over again. So I took a power weapon wound on the Commissar, failed my -15 Morale test and ran. Leaving his assault squad nicely packed (even after their consolidation) for the Executioner and the other blob squad to pick off the remnants. Heh, my opponent couldn't believe that I took the Commissar either, until he realized WHY I wanted them to run. And yes, Shrike and assault squad all died on my turn.

And re priests. They're ICs, so seldom get to use that big weapon in hth. They're main value lies in the reroll, and I'm not convinced it's worth it for a gunline blob. Assault blob, maybe.