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Hey Dakka.
I am thinking about replacing my two tactical squads' heavy bolters with Plasma cannons. Its 5 more points, and has the same range, but the potential to hit more targets. What are your thoughts/ experience with Plasma Cannons in tactical squads or on infantry in general Dakka?

Go for it, Plasma Cannons have a better chance of hitting, and will wound most basic infantry on 2+/3+ with no saves due to Ap2. Granted that it can overheat but you only have a 1/18 chance of it overheating and killing a Marine.

Valkyrie wrote:Plasma Cannons have a better chance of hitting

Have you used the small blast template in a game? Pretty much less hits than anything else I've fired off.

Great for MEQ armies. People tend to target squads with those more than missile launchers so it'll help you anti tank do their job better sometimes

tldr wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Plasma Cannons have a better chance of hitting

Have you used the small blast template in a game? Pretty much less hits than anything else I've fired off.

Place it in the center of a unit and with a BS of 4, you'll pretty much always hit something unless you roll terrible for scatter. Compare that to Heavy Bolters, where only two shots are predicted to hit on average.

Plasma is fantastic for most games, It is versatile against meq's, horde armies, and light vehicles. For 5-10 points it is worth it to put one in a tac squad.

Valkyrie wrote:Place it in the center of a unit and with a BS of 4, you'll pretty much always hit something unless you roll terrible for scatter.

Yes, you hit, but you hit exactly 1 model against opponents who practice proper spacing. That's the problem with a template that has a 1.5" radius when you can always space models up to 2" apart.

In this case, the plasma cannon is going to probably do more for you than the heavy bolter, but I question why you'd want to spend the points for either of them. Surely, those points could be spent better elsewhere.

Its not like I am buying a 5 man box just to make 2 plasma cannons. I am buying a box of deathcompany and a 5 man squad to make a 5 man assault marine squad with a Sanquinary priest and a new veteran for my command squad, so that leaves me with 3 extra men. I have extra plasma cannon bits from my Anti-tank dev squads, so I thought it might be good to try out. And Ailros, HB for Space marines are free in ten man squads.

The general theme seems to be "For 5 points, it worth it" ?

worth it for an anti-tank dev squad? No. After all it's an anti-infantry weapon.

For a X priced tac squad compared to an X+5 pt. tac squad, I suppose. Just so long as you don't get too upset when it doesn't slaughter as advertised.

Yeah, the short comings of the small blast template are a real bummer. After all the praise that got lavished on to the Leman Russ Executioner (3 or 5 plasmacannons on one tank) it just fails. For 5 points, the Plasmacannon is definitely better than the Heavy Bolter, but only because you'll have a wider range of targets. The weapons have about the same average damage, but the Plasmacannon has a higher damage potential (tank shocks to bunch targets up, targets not in cover, transports, etc.).

Running 2x dev squads. One is 5x plasma cannons and the other 5x las cannon. I drop pod an IC Dread into their lines to die so my devs can shoot. Much fun ensues.

Opponents do not and often cannot keep an entire army of models spaced exactly 2" apart.

Plus, having to keep your army 2" apart is a disadvantage against the enemy. Say he has plasma cannons and you have nothing but heavy bolters. He's free to bunch up his squads so they're all in range much more often (with 20-30 guys 2" apart, half the squad will often be out of range.)

Since he has blast templates, your squads will have to spread, meaning less guys in shooting range and in big units some models losing attacks in combat. His won't have to spread because heavy bolters force nothing.

Heavy weapons in tactical squads are there to take pot shots while four other guys hold objectives or help prevent a melta gun from dying.

I'd stick with ML or MM (free and punchy), or even a lascannon for power. One plasma cannon simply isn't going to do that much.

My last game, my plasma dev squad wiped a 15x loota squad one turn. I am telling you, just try it proxy to see if you like it. I does.

jspyd3rx wrote:My last game, my plasma dev squad wiped a 15x loota squad one turn. I am telling you, just try it proxy to see if you like it. I does.

If your opponent placed his lootas within their range, placed close together, that was a big mistake on his part. The strength of a unit should be measured by what is capable with and against strong players, not players that make such a fundamental mistake.

Plasma Cannons are punishment weapons.

Infantry bunched up together? Plasma Cannon.
MEQ out of cover? Plasma Cannon.

For 5 extra points it is certainly better than the heavy bolter.
Besides, where else will you get it?

Happygrunt wrote:Hey Dakka.
I am thinking about replacing my two tactical squads' heavy bolters with Plasma cannons. Its 5 more points, and has the same range, but the potential to hit more targets. What are your thoughts/ experience with Plasma Cannons in tactical squads or on infantry in general Dakka?

absolutely. heavy bolters are one of the few weapons in the game that you should never take. there is always a better tool for the job.

jspyd3rx wrote:Running 2x dev squads. One is 5x plasma cannons and the other 5x las cannon. I drop pod an IC Dread into their lines to die so my devs can shoot. Much fun ensues.

This post makes me sad.

As an ork, I wholeheartedly support your removal of heavy bolters from your army.

In all seriousness, definitely do it. The PC is a solid choice - far more versatile than the heavy bolter, if you discount the 1/18 chance of exploding. It's far better against heavy infantry, especially guard and eldar, who will be insta-killed. In fact, there are only a very limited number of situations where the heavy bolter would be preferable.

MekanobSamael wrote: It's far better against heavy infantry, especially guard and eldar, who will be insta-killed.

... yes, because as a guard player, I'm terrified of weapons which cause instant death...

Anyways, the plasma cannon can target more things and actually do damage, but it's not actually all that much better. I mean, there's a reason it's only a 5 point upgrade...

Ailaros wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Place it in the center of a unit and with a BS of 4, you'll pretty much always hit something unless you roll terrible for scatter.

Yes, you hit, but you hit exactly 1 model against opponents who practice proper spacing.

Last time i looked at a deployment of yours from a rep you didn't have every single guardsman 2 inches from a buddy cover/enemy LOS/moving through terrain sometimes dictates getting 2-3 guys hit in cover by a blast is better than the whole squad getting rapid fired in the open. Also, when you place 10 marines in the footprint of a rhino, it becomes hard not to hit a couple with a plasma cannon- and plasma cannons love shooting at marines!

Ailaros wrote:For a X priced tac squad compared to an X+5 pt. tac squad, I suppose. Just so long as you don't get too upset when it doesn't slaughter as advertised.

I don't really see any slaughter being advertised. It's a single plasma cannon shot. On the other hand, you tell me which is going to have more effect next time i play a deathwing/loganwing force- a singple plasma cannon or a single HB. The PC is going to work well against large groups of lightly armoured models, marines, terminators, you can even point the damn thing at MC's or light vehicles. The HB is preferable in a very limited number of situations.

Ailaros wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote: It's far better against heavy infantry, especially guard and eldar, who will be insta-killed.

... yes, because as a guard player, I'm terrified of weapons which cause instant death...

Anyways, the plasma cannon can target more things and actually do damage, but it's not actually all that much better. I mean, there's a reason it's only a 5 point upgrade...

If you have a heavy weapons squad in cover, and it fails a wound instant death wound, goodbye whole model.

Being able to target more things is much better, especially if you are trying for a take-all-comers list. I killed 4 terminators in cover in 2 shots with PC's last game i played, a multiplayer game with guard and marines on the same side. with the exact same dice rolls, it could have been 4 guardsmen. ork boy, guardsman, necron, terminator, plague marine- it simply doesn't discriminate against any infantry.

sulla1080 wrote:absolutely. heavy bolters are one of the few weapons in the game that you should never take. there is always a better tool for the job.

Those absolutes can really get you into trouble on discussions

I can think right off the bat of a few great times heavy bolters are useful.
1) Dakka Preads : 85 points for a AC and 2 HB? Yes, please.
2) HB Speeder : 60 points for 2 HB on a speeder? Yes, please.
3) Valks : 10 points for 2 HB sponsons? Yes, please.

Heavy bolters are great to throw wounds on T3 - T5 targets at range. Their large threat range is what makes them very effective in that role. Sure, their not as good as say a Rifleman Dread, but their also much cheaper.

I would not field them in a taq squad, but I also don't field taq squads with my marines.

Heavy Bolters are also better against units with fewer models and more wounds. A Plasma Cannon may be more likely to cause a single wound to a Tervigon, but a Heavy Bolter is more likely to cause three wounds...

Nurglitch wrote:Heavy Bolters are also better against units with fewer models and more wounds. A Plasma Cannon may be more likely to cause a single wound to a Tervigon, but a Heavy Bolter is more likely to cause three wounds...

Heavy bolters are great when they are on cheap units like chimera hulls, dakka preds, landspeeder typhoons, HB landspeeders, ect. They are also great when they are part of an expensive unit, when they are free, like land raiders, LRBT (though the LC might be a good option for 15 points)

That being said, I wouldn't put them in tactical or dev squads, as A: they are rather expensive since you pay for the whole squad, and all you get is a HB... and B: they can take better weapons for nearly the same price, if not the same price.

On the matter of plasma cannons, I don't really like them all that much, but they have their uses. For tacticals I would just go for the free missile launchers, they are reliable, can threaten anything (though AV 13-14 is a poor shot), and can select between the krak and frag depending on target. But at 5 point the plasma is VERY tempting... Ugh, now I'm going to have to try them out some.

tldr wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Plasma Cannons have a better chance of hitting

Have you used the small blast template in a game? Pretty much less hits than anything else I've fired off.

I know. It is bull . It should hit at least 3 at once.

I would take it though. It can take on transports and light tanks as well as high-toughness infantry like Hive Guard with ease.

Against infantry, though, you're probably going to deal the same amount of wounds as a heavy bolter without the risk of exploding. I'd say it's only just worth 5 points.

notabot187 wrote:Heavy bolters are great when they are on cheap units like chimera hulls, dakka preds, landspeeder typhoons, HB landspeeders, ect. They are also great when they are part of an expensive unit, when they are free, like land raiders, LRBT (though the LC might be a good option for 15 points)

That being said, I wouldn't put them in tactical or dev squads, as A: they are rather expensive since you pay for the whole squad, and all you get is a HB... and B: they can take better weapons for nearly the same price, if not the same price.

On the matter of plasma cannons, I don't really like them all that much, but they have their uses. For tacticals I would just go for the free missile launchers, they are reliable, can threaten anything (though AV 13-14 is a poor shot), and can select between the krak and frag depending on target. But at 5 point the plasma is VERY tempting... Ugh, now I'm going to have to try them out some.

I could not agree more with this statement.

Definately get some. They are barely more expensive, can hit more targets, have a much better strength and allow no armour saves.(:

Nurglitch wrote:Heavy Bolters are also better against units with fewer models and more wounds. A Plasma Cannon may be more likely to cause a single wound to a Tervigon, but a Heavy Bolter is more likely to cause three wounds...

I disagree with the fewer models, my GK got wiped out by a tac squad plasma cannon over 2 or 3 turns before my Vindicare wounded it (he always gets a 1!).

I see it as worth it especially if you have more than one tac squad with it.

Nurglitch wrote:Heavy Bolters are also better against units with fewer models and more wounds. A Plasma Cannon may be more likely to cause a single wound to a Tervigon, but a Heavy Bolter is more likely to cause three wounds...

A tervigon, T6 6 wounds 3+ save.

3 heavy bolter shots average 0.2 wounds.
1 plasma touch average 0.4 wounds.

That statement by you is complete gibberish.

Heavy bolters are terrible against armor.

Having more shots at low strength does not increase the chance of doing massive damage. Heavy bolters are basically the lasguns of heavy weapons. Sure if you rolled 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 then 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 then he rolled 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 you could do massive damage. Is that realistic or intelligent? No.

1 Lascannon is a million times superior to 5 lasguns at putting wounds on a carnifex, period. A heavy bolter takes 27 turns of shooting to bring down a carnifex/tervigon. A single scratch from a plasma cannon on something T4-6 and 2+/3+ save is worth many shots fired from a heavy bolter. Then it only gets exponentially better if it hits more than 1 guy. It's possible to hit 3 at once even if the enemy is somewhat spaced, look at the diagram in the BRB.

TheBloodGod:

Speaking of gibberish, you are aware of what that means, right? If you feel that my statements are wrong, feel free to explain it. To say that they're gibberish is simply stupid since you know what I mean and you simply feel that I've made a mistake of calculation.

For example, your statement about a Lascannon being "a million times superior to 5 Lasguns at putting wounds on a carnifex, period" is wrong. It's not gibberish, because it makes a meaningful statement. It is, however, clearly hyperbole since five Imperial Guard Lasguns can be expected to put 0.14 wounds per turn on a Tervigon between 13" and 24" range, while a Lascannon can be expected to put 0.42, and where 0.42 = 0.14x, x ≠ 1,000,000. So either you're incompetent where arithmetic is concerned, or you're simply being a 'donkey-cave'.

So what are the numbers for a Heavy Bolter or a Plasma Cannon against a Tervigon, assuming a Space Marine gunner? The Heavy Bolter can be expected to up to 3.00 if lucky. The Plasma Cannon can be expected to cause up to 1.00. Obviously a Plasma Cannon is more likely to cause one wound, and I never said anything to the contrary, but it can't cause more than one wound against a unit composed of a single model.

So how about dropping the hyperbole and discussing this like a reasonable adult, okay? Maybe if you're concentrated on engaging with the topic you wouldn't embarrass yourself so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
phantommaster:

I would have thought the difference between a squad of Grey Knights and a Tervigon was obvious, but apparently not because you're not the only player that misunderstood my point. Recall that I pointed out that the Heavy Bolter is better against units with fewer models "and more wounds", such as a Tervigon. As I mentioned to TheBloodGod above, a blast can only do a maximum of one wound to such a unit as a Tervigon, while a Heavy Bolter can do a maximum of three wounds. This makes it a fact that a Heavy Bolter is more likely to cause three wounds on a Tervigon than a Plasma Cannon because it is impossible for a Plasma Cannon to cause more than one wound on a Tervigon in a single turn of shooting.

Curiously this makes a Plasma Cannon better against units of single-wound models, rather than units consisting of a multiple-wound model (or small units composed of multiple wound models).