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For my 3468th post, because I missed my 3456th post and my 3333rd post and my 3000th post (I really don't watch my post count; it's okay though this post also has a pattern in its number which makes it interesting), I'm gonna rank the various armies as for my opinion of them, their fluff, their codex, and their overall feel as they currently stand. I will include the various Marine sub-armies simply because there are some I actually like despite what certain people occasionally insinuate.

So let's start this countdown with the faction I like the least. No, it's not Space Marines. Actually, it's:

16: NECRONS


I just... don't have any feelings at all for them. GW hasn't even written them to be very interesting ENEMIES, nevermind as an actual playable faction. They're emotionless robots which always strike without warning and have uberawesome tech which nobody can replicate and most of the time even when they're killed they're not really killed. There's some people who even claim that they can come back from being vaporized by a meltagun shot. ... yeah. I feel it's ridiculous, and just un-fun, both as a faction and as an enemy. The fact that the actual tabletop army is incredibly uninteresting to play at the moment does not help either, and it's uninteresting to play against as well.

And it doubly sucks because, with the background they have now, the Necrontyr have so much potential! I feel they should be ancient aliens coldly rebelling against their godlike masters, and giving hell to everyone else in their way (after all, they're all creations of the Old Ones they hate so much) as they work to destroy the C'tan now that they're weakened-- they don't need weak gods, so they won't suffer them. Especially the Nightbringer, whom they should hate more than anything that isn't an Old One. Add in those still enslaved to the C'tan and it justifies current fluff as well. Their Lords and Immortals should have personality still, and yet they're never really described-- think of how awesomely bat-s*** insane the Lords should be after being enslaved for countless millenniums? But it's never described. And the sane ones should be the most dangerous of all, but we don't know if there are any left.

The army list is similarly uninteresting, limited, and lackluster. The choices that are there are often uncompetitive due to the move to fifth edition, and Necrons are almost a joke army nowadays because of how notoriously hard it is to win with them against a player that knows what they're doing. They've suffered the most in the move to fifth edition, and even though they aren't as weak as people make them out to be, they're still at the bottom of the pile.

I hope the new codex rumored to come out early-mid next year breathes new life into these otherwise lifeless, and unfortunately also rather uninteresting, abominations. Because they have a HUGE opportunity to be goddamned awesome if they're just given more... personality, in both a literal and figurative sense.

Melissia wrote:Now for something which I suppose is completely expected. But it's partly the fault of certain posters on this and many other forums, as well as the army's fans IRL and GW's own fluff. So, let's move on to the second to last army:

15: CHAOS SPACE MARINES


I just don't like them. They're rather undeniiably evil for one (yeah yeah blah blah gods have positive virtues, and yet, they sanction wholesale slaughter just for the fun of it, making the Inquisition seem tame at times), which means to me they have to be particularly well written or they're only suitable as enemies. And the more I read the Horus Heresy novels (I really should stop, I haven't liked most of them), the less I like each legion.

Horus had the galaxy as his oyster, he was the greatest conquerer of the entirety of human history, and yet he threw it all away because he felt his daddy wasn't giving him enough attention (Chaos, of course, was intelligent enough to waggle silver tongues and make use of his insecurity). Perturabo whined about being stuck in siege duty, and then betrayed the Emperor only to be... stuck in more siege duty. Magnus and Fulgrim I kinda have sympathy for, but the former STILL screwed everything up even if they didn't intend to. And the primarch of the World Eaters is so bland and undeveloped that I can't even remember his name half the time.

And compounding the "bunch of grown men with daddy issues" issue is the way the fans act. I actually think the CSM codex is one of the better ones. Is it perfect? By no means. All the fifth edition ones are better, but then, they're better than ALL of the codices previously written. The codex has a lot of flavorful builds available to it, and though it shows its age, it is still capable of putting up a fight against everything else. The codex is the reason why they're above Necrons-- the army is actually interesting, even if I dislike the fluff. The current CSM codex has both simplicity and variety, and theoretically it should be fun to play as and play against-- except that fans don't quit b... whining about how it isn't absolutely perfect. And they often use some of the dumbest arguments to complain about it, too.

They whine that it's weak, even though it seems to rather consistently place in the top five in tournaments. The codex is consistently one of the better codices when it comes to actual competitive strength-- frankly it's quite possibly a tougher codex than the current fifth edition vanilla Space Marines codex, what with CSMs having what is commonly believed to be a superior selection of troops choices (And thus scoring units). They argue that it has no variety, even though it has more than any other current codex that's not fifth edition. Especially comparing it to third edition ones-- these people that claim that all the units suck save a specifi few don't know how damn lucky they are that they like CSMs instead of, say, Grey Knights (damn would they be pissed then, huh?). Honestly, I just don't get it, and it irritates the hell out of me listening to the constant whining and moaning of the fans, making me dislike the faction even more than I already did.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm just ranting about it because I'm tired of it (And just plain tired), having been hearing it ever since the damn codex was released.

The only part of the CSMs I did like (fluffwise) were daemons. And thankfully I don't have to play a CSM army to play Daemons anymore. Fun times for everyone. Or at least me. I'll talk about THAT army when it comes time for that. For now, I think I've ranted enough on this subject, so I'll post this before my graphics card overheats again (I really need to get that checked).

Melissia wrote:I make no apologies for my opinions stated in this thread. CSMs suck, they're the only faction I actively dislike, but their codex is good (Better than half the codices in use today) so they're ranked higher than Necrons. If Necrons gain interesting fluff and a revitalized army list, CSMs are going right to the bottom,and staying there until GW doesn't make them look like spiky failures with daddy issues in my eyes.

Moving right along, let's talk about the next army in the list. It was a bit of a toss-up between three armies,

but in the end of the three I would say that...

14: TYRANIDS


... are the ones I have the least desire to play, for fluff and rules reasons. They make great enemies, but a lot of their fluff is overblown even by 40k standards, and the fact that people are constantly saying there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of hive fleets out there just annoys me. Their personality is limited, and in most cases nonexistent, and they're constantly pushed as the unbeatable enemy (which is boring) by the fans. However, they rank higher than the previous armies because they're actual living creatures, and the synapse creatures DO have personality. It's limited, and very little of it is expounded upon by the fluff, but it IS there. I also have a fondness for Lictors, but unfortunately GW decided not to give us an Alpha Lictor commander, which would have been fairly sweet. That Lictors basically suck in this edition's codex also really disappoints me.

But I actually quite enjoy fighting Tyranids. I may not like their fluff, but they make for extremely enjoyable opponents in tabletop, there's just something visceral and cool about fighting them. Whether it's monstrous creatures or gant/gaunt spam, the codex, despite its flaws (inability to deep strike the tyranid prime for example, and the suckage of Lictors), saves the army for me. Eventually I might even be tempted to start the army, though that's hampered by the aformentioned absence of an alpha lictor commander (Dawn of War 2 really increased my opinion of them as far as playstyle goes, and this character is, specifically, why). The Tyranid Prime however is an interesting HQ unit and so if I did start a Tyranid army, it would probably be my choice in lieu of the previously mentioned nonexistent unit.

I actually kind feel bad for putting Tyranids here, but at the same time, something has to go here and of the three that are to come (sort of a lower-mid tier of armies), this army is the one I'm least likely to start playing. But from here on comes armies that I like to play AGAINST, or at least don't mind. Tyranids are fun opponents, with a good amount of variety which makes up for their lackluster fluff. Certainly I'd rather see a Tyranid army across the trable than any of the previous ones, and probably moreso than the next one as well.

Melissia wrote:To me, without Orks, there is no 40k.

I will say no more until I get to Orks in this list.

Until then, let's move on to...

13: Black Templars

This is going to be a short little rant. This is an army I see little of. This ranking totally a matter of feeling and opinion, as on this particular army I'm not really sure know how to explain these opinions.

I really have mixed feelings for this army. I like the crusader aspect, it's part of the reason I like Sisters, and yet... somehow, it just doesn't work out as well with the Templars. I don't know if I can really explain it, but Black Templars just don't "click" with me. I don't really enjoy seeing them on the field as my opponent that much, and I don't really think I'll ever play them, despite the fact that I like their concept.

The army list itself isn't bad per se I suppose. It's certainly more interesting than Blood Angels as far as varying from the basic default codex (though in other aspects, such as variety, it is lacking like any non-fifth edition codex). But it seems to be showing its age, and there's something I can't put my finger on that makes it feel flawed and unfun. I don't know if it is (I have not seen that many of these players), perhaps I just don't see the army enough to judge it, but in the end I think the army really needs to be revitalized before I can take it seriously, much like Necrons in fact.

While not as bad as third edition codices, it feels like a very flawed codex, and the fluff itself, despite me liking the concept, does not endear me to the army as much as I would like. Every time I read it I just can't seem to appreciate the chapter. The army's concept is something I can get into for starting it, if it's revitalized sometime in fifth edition (after tau probably), certainly moreso than Tyranids, but currently I'm just held back from really liking the army or its fluff for some reason. Consider this army tied with the previous one, and next one which should come later today.

Melissia wrote:I should note that I don't really dislike any of the low ranking factions/codices, the reason they're low ranking is a combination of competitiveness, appeal, how much they fit into my view of 40k. Personally I think that, outside of Chaos Space Marines, all of the factions have concepts that greatly appeal to me. It's just a matter of their execution-- some of them were done far better than others. Which of course brings me to:

12: TAU EMPIRE


Along with the Necrons, the Tau and their Empire were added in after the conclusion of second edition. Of the two, this faction fared far better, but could still use some work.

Just like with Black Templars, there's some things I like about the army, that entice me to try it out... yet... they're poorly executed. The Tau fluff was originally unambiguously "the good guys", making them fit in like an executioner's block in a preschool building. GW has tried to move them away from that since then, but I feel they haven't done enough to do so. The fact that they try and make the Tau to be a credible threat on par with everything else also is questionable, as they do so even when they emphasize how little territory the Tau actually have at the moment.

Originally, Dark Eldar was in this position. But Dark Eldar's playstyle and models, and possibly fluff, look to be greatly improved with the upcoming codex, and so they're bumped up. Which is unfortunate for the Tau, because frankly I think they have a lot of potential. It's just that they haven't had enough fluff, or enough models, or enough rules to build on that potential. The rules kinda suffer in fifth edition, and they weren't actually THAT great in fourth edition anyway (though they were better than they are now, with fifth edition codices out). I imagine they will move up quite a few spots when the fifth edition codex comes out, probably sometime late next year or early the year after. I look forward to it, and hope they don't do any more stupid things like "Tau can defeat a Tyranid fleet without a single casualty!". As much as I despise the more over the top Tyranid fluff, come ON! They're not THAT incompetent!

The parts of the Tau fluff that I like actually tend to be on how naieve they are, but eventually they're going to have to learn the harsh, unforgiving, merciless truth of the 40k galaxy. And I rub my hands with psychotic glee over how much that realization might change their way of thinking, way of life, and way of warfare. But the Tau at least have the firepower to withstand it a bit longer, and I hope they do. They're one of the more alien factions in the setting, and at the same time, their purely scientific view on warfare and technology is refreshing and has a lot of potential... both for units, AND for potential conflicts revolving it rogue AIs. And the fact that they are an empire of many races brings hope to me that the fifth edition codex will really let you go crazy with the auxiliaries-- be they human, kroot, demiurg, or what have you. It's a part of the army list that reminds me of the Roman Empire and their use of foreign light auxiliaries in support of their legions, and I like such historical references.

So despite it s seemingly low rating, the Tau Empire, much like the previous codex, has a lot of potential. It just feels wasted, with mediocre, incomplete, and often over the top fluff, and rules which have suffered due to age. I sincerely hope GW's fifth edition release makes me want to buy a Tau army.

Melissia wrote:Gone for what, twelve hours, and already two more pages? Goddamn, goddamn.

Well anyway, as predicted by Saint Hazard (I have a text file with the order of the factions, so no, I didn't change it because of his prediction), here's:

11: Dark Angels


Once again, I feel bad giving them this rating. I admit I like the majority of the factions, and yet with a rating system like this that's a numbered list, it's hard to be fair.

In this case, though, I think it's merited. I feel much the same about Dark Angels as I do about Black Templars, except I actually prefer Dark Angels a bit more because of their focus on plasma and ranged warfare. Plasma is cool, both from a visual and from a physics perspective (well, technically it's hot), after all, and I have a preference for playing armies which have some focus on shooting (Although, given that I play Orks, obviously it isn't a requirement). Their codex also has a better variety of choices than the BT codex I feel, including the awesome all-terminator army. They've suffered a bit with age, and yet they still have a good amount of variety to help cover for that.

Yet, for all of that, they're still kinda languishing behind any of the modern codices, left in the dust to suffer from age. Their fluff feels the same way, as well-- their focus on secrecy has resulted in us not knowing that much about them or their "dark secret", which while attractive to some people makes the army less desirable to me. Some secrets are necessary for the sake of a continued narrative, but something feels off about the Dark Angels' narrative. Still, at least they have one and they are, very slowly, moving forward and trying to resolve their dark secret (in secret of course), where with the Black Templars it feels are kinda stuck in stasis (which again is appealing to some people, but not necessarily to me).

All in all, despite anything I've said here, I think DA are a good mid-level codex, IE, they aren't spectacular, but they do look fun, and have a good amount of somewhat interesting fluff. They need more work done on them, but I could say (and have said) the same thing about any non-fifth edition codex.

Melissia wrote:10: DARK ELDAR


As said before, for me to really like bad guys and want to play them requires that they be well written . I'm not so sure Dark Eldar are. But they DO have vastly improved rules and models over their previous incarnation, and heck, even the previous incarnation was probably the most competitive of the third edition codices at the start of fifth edition. It just took more finesse than most codices-- but since it's an Eldar codex, that's expected of it anyway so that's hardly a criticism.

The fluff doesn't really present them to be a huge galactic threat-- they suffer just like the Tau in that regard, only unlike the Tau they don't seem to be intending to expand much. Maybe the fifth edition codex will change that, maybe they'll be more awesome then. But until then, they're kinda stuck in the limbo of evil ninja pirate bondage elves. In space. Which is actually pretty awesome. Dark Eldar make for very interesting enemies, but they suffer much like most of the third edition codices in that they just don't have all that much fluff, which means they don't have that much for me to judge from, and less characterization than they deserve. That which is there isn't all that impressive, though, for aforementioned reasons.

Their playstyle, however, redeems all of that, as do their new models (those two-handed swords are just badass, and Lelith is a great female model and hopefully a sign of things to come for future female models). They're actually DIFFERENT from other armies, which is more than I can say for the many MEQ armies which are basically "like C:SM, but...". Fast, fragile, and hard hitting, with plenty of fun special rules, they're quite interesting on the tabletop even if they lack a bit in the lore.

It's a bit unfair rating Dark Eldar right now, what with a new codex coming out in a month, but hey, I don't feel like waiting a month to finish this. Suffice it to say, Dark Eldar are cool enemies. And if the codex doesn't suck, and has a good amount of well-written fluff, then I might even be tempted to collect a small army.

Melissia wrote:9: DAEMONHUNTERS


I like Daemonhunters. I really do! They're the Marine army that I've most seriously considered starting. They have awesome, highly detailed models, they're complete badasses without going overboard into stupidity (like the other Marine codices). When the Grey Knights appear from their teleportation, the battlefield trembles in fear for THEY have come, and only death awaits their enemies. Sworn to protect humanity from the nastiest of the nasty-- the foul infestations of chaos daemons which threaten to swallow entire worlds into the warp-- they do so with a stoic bravery that just feels lacking in other Marines, whom often fight out of rage, or pride, or simple joy in fighting, or wanting to leave their mark on history. The Grey Knights fight knowing they will not be remembered for what they do. They fight-- and win-- because they must, for the sake of all humanity.

And it is awesome. Where I feel the majority of Marine fluff fails, the lore of the Grey Knights succeeds.

But let's face it, their codex sucks. I mean Necron level of suck. There's very few options-- hell, not even a single fast attack option, just an option for "you can deep strike your troops choice as a fast attack unit, but they can't score anymore". The only reason they're not down there next to Necrons despite having an equally bad codex, competition-wise, is because their fluff is awesome. Their limited options are limited even further because a few of their choices are very weak, and this is due to more than just the age of the codex... they weren't necessarily all that powerful even back when they were created. The units that ARE good are hampered by the fact that they need support from the units which aren't. Winning with a purist Grey Knights army is difficult to say the least, and adding in Inquisitorial Stormtroopers dramatically increases their overall kill points while reducing their overall survivability. They have few upgrade options, and the ones that are there don't really cover their weaknesses very well.

Perhaps because of this, their codex is scheduled to go after Dark Eldar. To wax poetic, I look towards spring in far more ways than one. May the new codex be as awesome as all of the fifth edition codices have been thus far.

Melissia wrote:I was hoping a certain Saint would amuse me with another prediction. But somehow I figure he might have predicted:

8: BLOOD ANGELS


... or at least that it would be roughly around this location. Fluffwise, I kinda liked Blood Angels. Metal nipples aside, I like their models. But the reason why they're low is because somehow, their playstyle feels... indistinct. As if they're borrowing a conglomeration of Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, and Space Marines and mashing it all together without developing a coherent narrative for the army.

As for the fluff, I admit I don't know as much about Blood Angels as I would like. I do like their primarch-- Saint Sanguinius, the only primarch considered worthy of being declared an Imperial Saint. Injured and tired from fighting a greater daemon, Sanguinius battled Horus as desperately as he could to protect his father, the Emperor of Mankind. Not seeking any reward-- but because it was the right thing to do. Being the symbol of nobility and honor in a grimdark universe, of course, means that he was killed, and his death was used as a catalyst to curse all of his progeny. The Space Marines afterwards fought desperately not to give in to this curse. They express themselves in the fine arts (something which is kinda endearing and humanizing about them), and yet, they must struggle to maintain their humanity lest they give in to the curse and become the Death Company. They are generally considered very reliable and friendly as far as Space Marines go, and have a good reputation for heroism across the galaxy.

As simple as this concept is, the "tragically doomed heroes" feel is captured very well and done justice by GW. I'm not so sure about the quality of some of the new fluff (as I said, I have only glanced through the newest codex outside of the army list, but all in all I think they're a very likable chapter without becoming Mary Sue. That said, where I feel they fail is the coherency of their army, and some of the more ridiculous things that they are given in order to give "flavor" to them. Descent of Angels feels like they went a step too far-- exchanging Combat Tactics for re-rolling failed reserve rolls sounds good. Exchanging combat tactics for reducing scatter by d6 sounds better. But both of them at once? Perhaps I'm misjudging it, but it feels like a bit too much. I get the idea behind this, but it still feels excessive (time will tell if it is-- I don't think it's THAT excessive mind). The deep striking land raiders come to mind as well, but they're only bad because the concept is ludicrous, not because it's dangerous or overpowered (quite the opposite).

But more than that, they just don't feel coherent. They wanted to give the Blood Angels an assault army feel, which is all well and good, but then they topped it off by making them a FAST assault army (good deep striking, fast tanks), and then a fast and durable (sanguinary priests anyone?) assault army, and then after that they made them a fast durable assault army with good shooting as well. So what CAN'T they do very well? Perhaps they succeeded and the issue is with my own expectations, as it doesn't appear to be an overpowered list, I just think it doesn't really feel like it is very well thought out and coherently organized. If it is my fault, then maybe Blood Angels just aren't my thing.

Metal nipples aside, the models are well crafted and the color scheme is nice to look at, but they don't really vary much from Space Marines visually, which is unfortunate. I don't have that many complaints about the army list and models, I just wish I had more GOOD things to say about it, because I like their fluff. Still, Blood Angels aren't doing badly as they're the first of the top half of the codex list.

Melissia wrote:7: Chaos Daemons


Chaos Daemons, the only reason why I might consider playing a Chaos army right now. A pity that despite the cool fluff and interesting rules, the reason why I'm turned off of the army is because of the models.

The mythological feel of the codex really gives the four gods personality, and their minions as well in turn. The corrupting nature of Chaos in the fluff books-- especially the Dark Heresy roleplay books-- is very well done, and though I am saddened by the fact that there is no Lost and the Damned army (I'm not starting a Chaos army where I have to buy even one single Chaos Space Marine, for reasons stated in that army's review), Chaos Daemons themselves are certainly a very interesting and very dangerous foe, without going overboard. They're highly dangerous, yet they're also very unstable, simply existing in this world damages Daemons and so with rare exceptions they can only manifest for short whirlwind battles and infestations. But oh damn, when those specific conditions are met and they CAN take a long-term stay on a world? They turn that world into a living hell the likes of which the human mind cannot properly comprehend, and it takes the powers of the Grey Knights and Imperial Inquisition in order to fight them off. Even then, sometimes it's judged to be better to simply quarantine such worlds until the sorcery wears off, instead of attempt to cleanse them.

Their rules pretty much represent this. Tabletop 40k battles are short, brutal affairs, and with Daemons this is no different. They manifest onto the battlefield in your face, and quickly move to tear it off in the remorseless manner of the daemons of myth and nightmare. While limited in much the same way as the Ork army is as far as anti-tank goes, they certainly aren't as incapable of handling mechanized armies as many people think-- they just require more coordination than many players are willing to put them through. But that's fine with me, not every army has to be nor should be simple and easy to play (as noted in my Dark Eldar rant). Daemons are tricky, but when mastered present a great deal of potential kickassery waiting to happen.

... and now, onto the models. Well, with a few exceptions, I don't really particularly like most of them. The horrors are just spaztastic in a very uninspiring way, and their form is really just too predictable for a Tzeentch daemon. The Daemonettes look like they belong in a Nurgle army rather than a Slaanesh army, a marked decrease in quality from the previous versions. Plaguebearers are okay, giving a proper Nurgle feel, yet they too feel so limiting. Nurglings are good, properly cute and disgusting at the same time, but their rules feel kinda mediocre and they seem to be rarely used. Bloodletters... well, I just wish their limbs were a bit more muscular, but other than that I'm okay with them. Of the HQ units, I like skulltaker the best (minus his overlong tongue), but most of them have potential.... just very specific problems. The detail on the teeth of the bloodthirster, the nonexistent "face" of the Great Unclean One, the peculiar staff position of the Lord of Change, the passive appearance of the Fateweaver, the "naked baby on a throne" look for Epidemius, the silly masked wand of the Masque, and so on. Much of the rest of hte units are the same way, but visually speaking I'd go with a Khorne army as their models ahve the most consistent visual appeal to me with the least amount of problems.

Still, as collecting and painting is my least favorite aspect of the hobby anyway, that's not really enough to have Daemons pushed lower than this. Since it came out I've been tempted to collect the army, but money and the issues with the new range of models have prevented me from doing so. Perhaps a fifth edition set of models will be better. Perhaps not. Either way, I at least look forward to its codex.

Melissia wrote:6: SPACE WOLVES


Well, Saint Hazard picked another one. I like Space Wolves, which is obvious given that they're in this particular spot. They're a great army, one of the best competitively, with several good options and a few really great options-- far more than anything else in this list thus far. I also enjoy their fluff, the Vikings In Space feel is just awesome in a somewhat humorous way. Space Wolves are known for being gregarious and surprisingly humble, not viewing themselves as better than the average Guardsman. While other chapters might do this, more than any of them it is focused on with the Space Wolves fluff as something that is an intrinsic part of their chapter's culture, and it means that the Imperium at large tends to respect them. Any soldier who fights for the Imperium and gives their life in the name of the Emperor is equal to a Space Wolf even if they were a mere human, and therefor to be honored with a drink in their name. I guess Space Wolves drink a lot after big battles.

But sometimes it feels like it went a bit too far. Thunderwolf cavalry? Goddamnit GW, this isn't fantasy, this is science fiction! Okay okay, sure, in scifi there's always aliens riding aliens or somesuch, but this isn't as cool as that because they aren't aliens, they're just really big wolves. Which works in fantasy, but it does not work in science fiction. And all of the "wolf" equipment feels the same way. I really wish they'd focus more on the viking aspect than the werewolf aspect, because the viking aspect is the one that actually remotely interests me (hell, I wasn't even interested in werewolves back when I roleplayed in the various White Wolf games and settings).

Still, on the parts that didn't go too far, they did a good job capturing the feel of the army while keeping most of the options to be pretty cool and useful. The Sagas are how I kinda wish the original SM codex did things instead of using special characters, but that's an entirely different subject (that I will cover when I get to that). Some things feel like they're too cheap for what you get-- Grey Hunters for instance-- but it's not so much that the force is unbeatable by most codices given a properly built army.

So yeah. Go Wolves. They're the Marine army I'd be tempted to start after Grey Knights.

Melissia wrote:5: SPACE MARINES


And here it is. The big one, in GW's eyes. It pretty much defines what a fifth edition codex is-- no unit is truly useless, there's multiple competitive builds and a huge variety of builds period, a huge variety of units to choose from, representing a very large variety of forces in a single codex. This is, in part, the reason why fifth edition rocks.

While it has its limitations (such as no all-terminator armies, for example), it's still the ideal by which all other fifth edition codices are compared to, and indeed by which all other non-fifth edition codices are compared to when it comes to playing them in fifth edition. While I'm iffy about using special characters-- and I really wish they just used something like Sagas as previously mentioned-- they're still at least an easy way to ensure that people know what your army can do just by looking at it (in this case, by looking at its HQ models). While many people miss fourth edition's customization, very few people would argue against the inclusion of such units as Thunderfire cannons, Ironclad Dreadnaughts, Land Speeder Storms, Sternguard and Vanguard (okay, the Vanguard are hard to use properly, but not everything can be a perfect hit), cheap TH/SS terminators, the inclusion of the Master of the Forge and his bringing back of hte Conversion beamer, etc. It brought a lot of new stuff in, as well as some of the older stuff that was missing.

The army can be built around scouts, or tacticals, and provides a huge amount of support options for these units. Or alternatively one could minimize their scout/tactical purchases (which I dislike seeing, but it does add to variety) and focus on the support functions themselves, leading to a Space Marine list that doesn't have to look the same twice every time you play it while still being quite competitive even with dramatic changes to the list. It's also part of the reason why fifth edition sucks, but I blame that on Matt Ward more than anything else. But marinewank aside, it's viable fluff and offers a huge amount of customization with widely varying DIY chapters that let you completely bypass the spank and produce something completely of your own (this compared to Space Wolves, who in the fluff don't have any descendant chapters, or Dark/Blood Angels, whose limited descendant chapters tend to be cursed like the Lamentors).

All in all, as I said, this is the codex every other fifth edition codex is going to be compared to. And there's a reason for this-- because it's a damned good codex with one of the most balanced and interesting army lists yet released. So yeah, Space Marines of all factions gets the fifth slot.

Melissia wrote:To the surprise of some people I'm sure, the next one is:

4: WITCH HUNTERS


There's a lot I like about the army, from a fluff standpoint. Sisters, especially. The best of the best that humanity can offer, trained to-- and sometimes past-- the human limits, resistant to psychic power through sheer willpower and belief, loyal to a fault and brave to a tee. Though still most assuredly human, they yet at the same time surpass the normal human capabilities, their skill and agility in their power armor eventually raising to match the Astartes... or even exceed it in the most talented cases, due to their special training and utmost dedication. The issues facing Sisters aren't a matter of whether or not they might betray the Imperium (which doesn't happen outside of psychic mind control that can effect even Space Marines with its power), but rather whether or not they succeed or fail in their attempts to catch heresy and betrayal. The traitors attempt to use Sisters for their own benefits, and Sisters must always be vigilant to make sure that this does not succeed... all the while they must also protect the innocent and defend the faithful. In such a galaxy as 40k, these duties constantly conflict, creating a tension in the Sisters' duties that prevent them from being mary sue while still keeping them relatively "good" (as much as anything in 40k can be "good").

The army list, that is the parts that don't suck, has a unique playstyle-- short-ranged shooty in a way that no other army manages to encapsulate. Bolter shock and flamers, are the bread and butter, steak and potatoes, and some other forms of common foodstuffs for the Sisters army-- to the extreme that even armies which have access to equivalents (Space Marines, Orks to an extent, Necrons) just don't compare. In close combat, Sisters rely upon their numbers and skill rather than their raw strength or toughness, as shown by the numbers of Battle Sister Squads, the unparalleled talent Seraphim have in hit and run tactics, or the unmatched skill of Celestians (Holy Hatred). Sadly, this list is very limited.

The HQ choice is good... but really limiting. She's statted out for ranged combat, but she can only really be equipped for close combat. Celestians are okay out of the Elites choice, but they're very limited by the fact that they have no free frags, and no BP+CCW or some other equipment to make them better in close combat (like Sarissas or some such), the other choice I won't even bother with. Battle Sisters are the core of the army, as despite being overcosted they're still very useful, clinging to Acts of Faith and mechanization in order to ensure the army stands a chance. The FA choices are useful, if overcosted, with Seraphim definitely on top. Similarly with the HS choices, the Exorcist comes on top by a long shot. Their transports are overcosted, with the Immolator basically just being an overpriced razorback (BA razorbacks are better).

The Inquisitor Lord is interesting from a game perspective, but from a fluff perspective I find it entirely droll as I don't see combat as an Inquisitor's job. Same with the Elite Inquisitor. Most of the time people just take those because they want the hood, and for no other reason. Stormtroopers aren't as good as Sisters, and never were, but they have their uses (mostly plasma spam with lots of small units) if you really, really have to have them in your list. Assassins I never really bother with... they have a few tricks, but save for one particular one they don't usually really help win battles compared to their cost (including the required Inquisitor).

The priest, if he actually started out with any equipment, would be better than the one the IG has, but s/he doesn't. Not even an armor save. But s/he does have the option to have power armor and other equipment that can make him/her worth taking, and taking him/her unlocks Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines. The former is a bit overpriced, but actually not all that bad, rather deadly and can be hard to kill. The latter is far, far more deadly, but also far, far easier to kill despite (or perhaps because of) being a vehicle squadron, and an open topped vehicle with AV11 to boot.

The fluff also has issues. Sisters are often abused as the scratching post of the galaxy, and the overwhelming majority of their fluff revolves around them losing fights, with only a very small portion showing them as the competent, capable soldiers they are. And the models... there was a thread that was what, over twenty five pages on that subject? And it wasn't the first. Enough has been said on that-- suffice it to say I like most of the models, but I despise the corset and boob cups style chest/abdomen armor.

All in all... they're my favorite faction. But goddamn does GW need to do a better job making them more appealing to more people. It's like GW's handling of Avatars-- apparently beating one up is a rite of passage for chapter masters now. I'm hoping that the new codex will focus on the aspects of Sisters that don't suck rather than focusing on the "omg martyrs let's have them kill themselves like lemmings!" bullgakt that some of the gakkier "authors" in BL try and do.

Melissia wrote:3: ELDAR

I like Eldar. I really do, though my like for them is far more subdued than my love of Orks, Guard, and Sisters, they're still my favorite non-human protagonists. Back in the day when I rped DnD and other fantasy-based systems I almost inevitably played an elven character of some sort, as I'm a fan of the long-lived races whom must struggle to keep up with the faster-reproducing races through skill an guile, as opposed to sheer numbers. That's what Eldar are, in essence-- elves in space. Psychic ninja elves in space. The concept is ludicrously over the top, and in any other setting you'd be thinking "what the bleep?" at it, but in 40k... they make it work.

And it is awesome.

Sadly, the Eldar do have aspects of their fluff I dislike-- mostly focused around "we're a dying race, let's go cry a river". Feth, it's just not believable to me the way GW attempt to portray this, they just didn't do a good job. I do my best to ignore that aspect, and instead focus on the idea that Eldar are trying to rebuild their empire, to rise again-- that they're struggling hard because of Slaanesh is fine, but they must struggle, not just wallow in their despair (that path leads to Nurgle). Struggle, fight, and survive. And thrive. The Eldar race is one of the oldest in the galaxy, equal to that of the Orks and younger only than the Necrontyr. They know more about it than just about everyone else, both about the physical world as well as the warp, and this is evident with the skill with which they do everything.

Such skill is also required to play their list, and Eldar is by no means a newbie's army. Generally speaking, it's actually quite the opposite, and that's part of the reason why its players seem to like it-- it's hard to use, but when used properly it's one of the best even with a fourth edition codex in fifth edition. Of the fourth edition codices, I think Codex: Eldar has stood up the tallest and proudest, befitting the race which it represents. IT has its issues, mind you, but all fourth edition codices do... and yet, last year it was second place in 'Ard Boyz. Sadly, I can't tell this year because GW's 2010 page is so screwed up (it just shows a simple table with the names of participants... not their army), but I'd be willing to bet that they got in the top five. I hope very much that their fifth edition codex, when it comes, continues its fine tradition of being a strong finesse army.

Go Eldar, hurrah hurrah, etc. I plan on starting an Eldar army after I finish collecting and painting my Guard and Ork armies up to 2k points, which will be a while, but they're still next in line, and I'm a rather big fan of them (greatly helped, I should note, by Dawn of War 2 of all things).

I love Necrons. Love them, and I totally agree with everything you said. They do need to be fleshed out a little more, they have so much wasted potential. While I wouldn't rank them at the bottom, You do make some excellent points.

Ugh, I was typing up the second post, and my graphics card overheated for some reason . Guess I'm gonna have to take it to get cleaned tomorrow. I'll see about rewriting the post in the meantime.

Melissia wrote:after all, they're all creations of the Old Ones they hate so much

I would disagree with that, I could be wrong but the background for the Necrontyr certainly seems to suggest that they were one of many other races which existed and came into existence alongside the Old Ones. The Necron Codex tells us that the Old Ones were the first species to make it into space with other races coming on behind and it wasn't until the Necrontyr also began to colonise other planets that they encountered the Old Ones. That's why they hate them so much, the Old Ones had everything the Necrontyr didn't have and they resented them bitterly.

Whilst I don't dislike the Necron background or the army I agree with almost everything you've said, they have the possibility for an immensely rich and deep history which has been completely passed over. When they were first introduced as robotic alien raiders (let's face it, someone looked at the old Chaos Androids and wondered how to re-use them in a non-Chaos related way. Maybe they shouldn't have) the concept was so basic that the developers struggled to make them into a fully fledged, playable army, it's why the Tau came from no-where but got completed first. I imagine that's how it went, someone took the look of the Chaos Androids, scoured the background for any other unexplored fragments of background, discovered the few mentions of the quiescent peril of the C'tan and shoe-horned them both together into a single Codex.

As you say, they have a lot of potential and we should know far more about the Necrontyr and what they were like, what they looked like, how their culture functioned and was structured and how it came to pass the majority of this 'proud race' were sold out by a tiny minority to the voracious C'tan. We should know more about Pariahs, about the method by which humans have been turned into Necrons. We should have various Lords with proper personalities, and as you say, maybe some of them couldn't stop what eventually was done to them but it doesn't mean they have to be happy about it. Just as many have the C'tan to thank for everything, a lot of Necrons have them to curse for everything and that would be worth exploring as well as the connection to the Mechanicus.

Unfortunately though, just as much more attention should be given to the Mechanicus, Arbites, PDF, Administratum et cetera I don't think we'll see any of these possibilities touched, when there is a new Necron Codex and wouldn't expect anything other than more of the same but with more emphasis on Lords leading the armies rather than the C'tan directing them from afar.

No, I'm saying the Necrontyr hate the creations of the Old ones, and most life in the galaxy is that, or at least descended from that.

Ahh, yeah, fair enough then.

Now for something which I suppose is completely expected. But it's partly the fault of certain posters on this and many other forums, as well as the army's fans IRL and GW's own fluff. So, let's move on to the second to last army:

15: CHAOS SPACE MARINES


I just don't like them. They're rather undeniiably evil for one (yeah yeah blah blah gods have positive virtues, and yet, they sanction wholesale slaughter just for the fun of it, making the Inquisition seem tame at times), which means to me they have to be particularly well written or they're only suitable as enemies. And the more I read the Horus Heresy novels (I really should stop, I haven't liked most of them), the less I like each legion.

Horus had the galaxy as his oyster, he was the greatest conquerer of the entirety of human history, and yet he threw it all away because he felt his daddy wasn't giving him enough attention (Chaos, of course, was intelligent enough to waggle silver tongues and make use of his insecurity). Perturabo whined about being stuck in siege duty, and then betrayed the Emperor only to be... stuck in more siege duty. Magnus and Fulgrim I kinda have sympathy for, but the former STILL screwed everything up even if they didn't intend to. And the primarch of the World Eaters is so bland and undeveloped that I can't even remember his name half the time.

And compounding the "bunch of grown men with daddy issues" issue is the way the fans act. I actually think the CSM codex is one of the better ones. Is it perfect? By no means. All the fifth edition ones are better, but then, they're better than ALL of the codices previously written. The codex has a lot of flavorful builds available to it, and though it shows its age, it is still capable of putting up a fight against everything else. The codex is the reason why they're above Necrons-- the army is actually interesting, even if I dislike the fluff. The current CSM codex has both simplicity and variety, and theoretically it should be fun to play as and play against-- except that fans don't quit b... whining about how it isn't absolutely perfect. And they often use some of the dumbest arguments to complain about it, too.

They whine that it's weak, even though it seems to rather consistently place in the top five in tournaments. The codex is consistently one of the better codices when it comes to actual competitive strength-- frankly it's quite possibly a tougher codex than the current fifth edition vanilla Space Marines codex, what with CSMs having what is commonly believed to be a superior selection of troops choices (And thus scoring units). They argue that it has no variety, even though it has more than any other current codex that's not fifth edition. Especially comparing it to third edition ones-- these people that claim that all the units suck save a specifi few don't know how damn lucky they are that they like CSMs instead of, say, Grey Knights (damn would they be pissed then, huh?). Honestly, I just don't get it, and it irritates the hell out of me listening to the constant whining and moaning of the fans, making me dislike the faction even more than I already did.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm just ranting about it because I'm tired of it (And just plain tired), having been hearing it ever since the damn codex was released.

The only part of the CSMs I did like (fluffwise) were daemons. And thankfully I don't have to play a CSM army to play Daemons anymore. Fun times for everyone. Or at least me. I'll talk about THAT army when it comes time for that. For now, I think I've ranted enough on this subject, so I'll post this before my graphics card overheats again (I really need to get that checked).

Great idea, M. I shall watch this thread with great interest.

Of course the only two armies I play are at the bottom of the list...

I blame the Parents.

Wow, everyone is doing something like this now a days. And I was going to use THIS idea for my 1000th. Great, now I have to think up another... Very interested to see who gets number 1 *cough* WITCH HUNTERS *cough*. Will be a fun read. Looking forward to it.

You might be surprised.

But then, maybe not.

I'm pleasantly surprised that Space Marines weren't at the bottom.

Good stuff so far, though I couldn't disagree more about the Necrons.

I happen to agree with everything you've said about the chaos space marine codex: it is a lot of fun, but so many people whine about it online. My local game group has 3 people that play it and love it. I've played 4 games with it, and I've won each one. It isn't overpowered like a regular space marine variant codex (BA or SW), but it allows for some awesome flexibility. And each army can be different each time. Chaos Terminator units marked Slaanesh with half containing lightning claws, half with combi-melta's are beyond amazing. Obliterators are some of the most useful/multi-purpose models out there. I even use raptors successfully. And chosen ripping in from the sides with melta-guns blazing, spilling out of rhinos that can have meltaguns (combi-meltas)? Yes please! I don't even care about the Slaanesh Daemon Prince with lash build-it's too boring and over used. Give me a Chaos Lord with a daemon weapon any day. Yea, the fluff isn't too amazing, but the playability is great. Don't let a bunch of online haters make this awesome codex (awesome because it's of average build and not overpowered, but not pathetic either-you need some skill to win) seem like crap to you-place it how you like it, not how whiners influenced you. Totally agree with you about the 'crons though, except I'd have put the Tau on the bottom of the list, then 'crons. Just my $.02

For grins and giggles, I'll play a foot slogging Black Templar list on occasion.

Once, my buddy played a lash list with plenty of plasma cannon and other blast templates.

I'm now gun-shy. It was ugly.

Ooh enjoyable to read. Hope Vanilla Marines make it relatively far, in some peoples opinions they already have.

Melissia wrote:And compounding the "bunch of grown men with daddy issues" issue is the way the fans act ... They whine that it's weak, even though it seems to rather consistently place in the top five in tournaments.

I've never complained about the current 'Chaos' Codex being weak. It's a perfectly competitive Codex. It's also a boring Codex, and a pale shadow of its former self.

Melissia wrote:They argue that it has no variety, even though it has more than any other current codex that's not fifth edition.

It has no variety compared to its former self. There's more variety in my Daemonunter Codex than in the current 'Chaos' Codex.

Melissia wrote:Especially comparing it to third edition ones-- these people that claim that all the units suck save a specifi few don't know how damn lucky they are that they like CSMs instead of, say, Grey Knights (damn would they be pissed then, huh?). Honestly, I just don't get it, and it irritates the hell out of me listening to the constant whining and moaning of the fans, making me dislike the faction even more than I already did.

Again, none of my complaints relate to the power of the current 'Chaos' Codex and its worthiness as a viable 5th Edition army. Any complaint or comparison is simply due to how fething awful the Codex is as a Codex, stripping away everything that made Chaos interesting (Marks, Legions, mother-fething Daemons) and replacing them with boring bs that's only slightly more interesting than the Dark Angel Codex (but only just).

Melissia wrote:I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm just ranting about it because I'm tired of it (And just plain tired), having been hearing it ever since the damn codex was released.

That's rich coming from you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Melissia wrote:I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm just ranting about it because I'm tired of it (And just plain tired), having been hearing it ever since the damn codex was released.

That's rich coming from you.

To be fair he's much improved lately. I rather like the new Melissia.

I do agree that the Chaos codex is bland and unimaginative; I thought they were the greatest threat to the Imperium, the guys who nearly pulled off toppling the Emperor. Instead we get generic spiky marines and Failbaddon jokes.

In short GW needs to make Chaos badass again. Heroes are defined by the evil they oppose, so how can Marines be heroes if Chaos is 2-dimensional cardboard.

Thus far I agree with you on the Necrons, disagree about the CSM.

To me, the Necrons never really made the jump from WD-only Adversary force to Army. While the Thousand Sons and Undead had a similar focus on mindless automatons, both strongly encouraged you to have individuals (characters in the story sense of the word) leading them: the Thousand Sons by giving you free Aspiring Sorcerers and the Undead with their buffs and special rules for the destruction of units following the death of the general. The Necrons instead get only 0-2 Lords and 0-10 identical Pariahs. Combine that with the lack of options (Lord Wargear, Disruption Fields and Tomb Spyder's ranged weapon, that's it) and you get a boring army. The apparent emphasis on shoehorning them into everybody else's history books doesn't help, either.

On the CSM: I would have thought that someone who liked the Daemons would appreciate why having them and the Daemon Princes flayed to the bone in the newest book would disappoint some people. The Armoury in the 3.5 book was a wonderful thing, giving you a vast array of options to personalise your HQ choices and Aspiring Champions.

I also disagree with you about the Chaos Daemons book. One of the interesting things about the daemons was that (outside of the Daemon Worlds) they relied upon mortals to bring them into the material universe, be it Chaos Space Marines or cultists. The new codex removes that, turning them into a displaced version of a fantasy army.

I am fully amazed and appalled that you thought it was a good idea to put CSM below "Chaoz Deemonzz!!11!". At least, on a fluff level. CSM on a gameplay level are definitely Blandy McPowersauce.

ph34r wrote:I am fully amazed and appalled that you thought it was a good idea to put CSM below "Chaoz Deemonzz!!11!". At least, on a fluff level. CSM on a gameplay level are definitely Blandy McPowersauce.

AlexHolker wrote:The Armoury in the 3.5 book was a wonderful thing, giving you a vast array of options to personalise your HQ choices and Aspiring Champions.

To answer both of these, but the last one in particular: So? I don't give a damn about aspiring champions, at least not chaos marine ones. Why should I?

I like Daemons. Not spiky Space Marines with bad attitudes and daddy issues. Daemons actually interest me from a fluff perspective, and they're actually different and unique from a gameplay perspective (IE, they aren't just another MEQ army).

H.B.M.C. wrote:It has no variety compared to its former self. There's more variety in my Daemonunter Codex than in the current 'Chaos' Codex.

... no.

I think it is probably too early in the morning for a statement so mind-numbingly wrong as this. Because I don't want this thread to turn into another argument on that godforsaken subject (And certainly not an argument with you), drop it. And drop the insults while you're at it.

Now, on to your regularly scheduled thread... I'll work on the third one after the caffeine takes effect.


edit: ... and it happened again. I'm going to have to work on this later, as I don't think I have time to start over before I have to go.

This thread is already starting to get flamy. I will be watching it. Posters are advise to stay polite, that includes you Melissia and the above post is not.

Melissia wrote:

ph34r wrote:I am fully amazed and appalled that you thought it was a good idea to put CSM below "Chaoz Deemonzz!!11!". At least, on a fluff level. CSM on a gameplay level are definitely Blandy McPowersauce.

AlexHolker wrote:The Armoury in the 3.5 book was a wonderful thing, giving you a vast array of options to personalise your HQ choices and Aspiring Champions.

To answer both of these, but the last one in particular: So? I don't give a damn about aspiring champions, at least not chaos marine ones. Why should I?

I like Daemons. Not spiky Space Marines with bad attitudes and daddy issues. Daemons actually interest me from a fluff perspective, and they're actually different and unique from a gameplay perspective (IE, they aren't just another MEQ army).

I've got no problem with you ranking the Chaos Space Marines 15th on a background basis alone. But that antipathy is no reason to make false claims about the rest of the codices, or to insult anyone that disagrees with those claims.

well, I'm in agreement so far. It's really a shame that CSM went from one of the best codexes to one of the worst in a single go.

Beautiful fluff, nice models, plenty compeditive became an army of thousand year old angsty teens that few play because they're so uncompetitive.

I'm hoping eldar or =I= are next...

Ailaros wrote:Beautiful fluff, nice models, plenty compeditive became an army of thousand year old angsty teens that few play because they're so uncompetitive.

Ailaros wrote:CSM

Ailaros wrote:uncompetitive

what

He's right, CSM can't really run with the big dogs (er, Wolves) anymore.

Frazzled wrote:This thread is already starting to get flamy. I will be watching it. Posters are advise to stay polite, that includes you Melissia and the above post is not.

He's got the wiener dogs primed and ready. You'd better do what he says. No telling what horrors he will unleash.

I don't think I ever really heard anyone complain about the Chaos codex being uncompetitive, but rather being really bland and having only one or two decent builds (and the standard rhino rush build having been long left in the dust by chimera convoys, Blood Angel armored companies, and Space Wolf longfang brigades).

They really do need to put the Chaos back into Chaos Space Marines, even if it means scrapping the daemon codex and merging it back into the main book (or at least create ally rules to allow blending of the armies).

I would disagree on a few of the points you made about the Chaos Marines, as I actually like them a great deal. However, I can see where you're coming from; I have never really complained about the codex myself, as I think it's pretty good, but it does get singled out a lot by fans.
Even so, they're your opinions, and I've always liked the famous maxim:
"Sir, I may not like what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

I have noticed already that this ranking is based upon emotions and the rather high blood pressure environment of hearing other players winge and critique of the fluff rather than anything which is applicable to the playing field.

I've certainly never heard that Chaos is not competetive and to say that Necrons are neither is just pandering to taste rather than looking at it with a tactical mind. Players do win with Necrons and not because the opponent is fielding just 500 gretchin either. It takes a player who fields them to understand the tactics required and in doing so can be quite a good fight. They do need a codex upgrade but the existing choices, although limited, can be used to good effect.

I would, personally, have placed both races named so far quite high up the ranks really.