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Hey, sup guys.
I am planning on playing some 2nd edition games with my friends because 5th edition doesn't interest me and I feel that Rogue Trader would be too confusing for them. In this way, 2nd edition is a happy medium.

Anyway, we're going to be using the Battle Bible and I came across something interesting: it notes that you take armor saves before rolling to wound. Is this actually true or was this a house rule?

Second, I'm planning on starting out using 750 points and I was wondering what y'all thought of that. My friends play Marines so 750 is good, you have 2 squads and then a hero and some upgrades for both the hero and the squads. Vehicles will be introduced later because they're a whole 'nother beast.

If you have any other suggestions or ideas, feel free to pitch in. : )

Thanks,
Vlad

That was never a rule in 2nd edition.

750 points is very little in the era when a Tactical Squad costs 300 pre-upgrades.

Of course, a 750 point game will take newcomers to 2nd approximately one million hours consider the rules disaster that was 2nd edition. Pray no one makes it to close combat in your 4 turn game.

DarknessEternal wrote:That was never a rule in 2nd edition.

750 points is very little in the era when a Tactical Squad costs 300 pre-upgrades.

Of course, a 750 point game will take newcomers to 2nd approximately one million hours consider the rules disaster that was 2nd edition. Pray no one makes it to close combat in your 4 turn game.

That's fine. A Hero with some upgrades will be in the 100 point range (unless you get a Major Hero), then two Tactical squads is 600. You then have 50 points for some upgrades. Yes I know there isn't a FOC, however that makes for a simple battle. : )

Also I've been looking over the rules and close combat isn't that difficult to figure out, it just takes a while to get used to. The game also isn't that much different, the basic rules are the same and I'm already used to how cover works.

Ahh 2nd edition! good times.
I say go for it. Naysayers be damned!

Arrr second edition good times =) Hope you put aside 3 weeks to play a game tho....

Our 2nd edition games never took that long, and we played 2500+ all the time.

Are people getting stupider as time goes by, or what? 5th edition is way simplified, and yet people still don't know half the rules. I blame it on the fact that most people don't even read the rulebook beyond the basic turn sequence.

I don't think people are getting stupider as such, however being a long term wargamer I have seen a trend towards simpler rules over the past 30 years.

A lot of younger players these days could pick up a copy of WRG Ancients 6th edition, or Empire III, or Stars 'N' Bars, and their heads would explode.

Of course there is nothing wrong with simple rules, and nothing right about complex rules, as a basic principle.

A lot of the older rulesets worked on the priciple that if you accurately modelled the micro events that happen during a battle, the result would come out right. In other words, detailed rules for shooting, and sending messages, were needed.

Newer rule-sets tend to focus on modelling the outcome, and discard the precise mechanisms by which it is brought about.

40K itself is over 20 years old, though. If you accept it as being rooted in original WHFB (which it is) then it is nearly 30 years old.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Also I've been looking over the rules and close combat isn't that difficult to figure out, it just takes a while to get used to. The game also isn't that much different, the basic rules are the same and I'm already used to how cover works.

Combat is radically different.

WS counts for a huge amounts, parries are worth their weight in gold. Anything that has movement bonuses is dynamite because getting into B2B is difficult when you're only moving 4", don't get an assault move and the game only lasts for four turns...

A rock solid character like a powered up chief librarian is easily capable of massacring six marines single handed (he'd kill more but only six can get into B2B).

Vehicles aren't worth bothering with - they are 100% death traps, as are bikes.

If this was Facebook I would click the like button on this.

For me 2nd ed was the holy grail, when GW cared more about lore and background than selling models at extortionate prices.

I still have every 2nd ed book, nearly every White Dwarf from that era and a sealed boxed game.

I salute you sir, you are an enlightened dude.


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Oh and use Necrons. They were frikkin obscene in 2nd.

Your friends playing marines are likely in for a shock too. Marines were about the worst army out there in 2nd edition.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Also I've been looking over the rules and close combat isn't that difficult to figure out, it just takes a while to get used to. The game also isn't that much different, the basic rules are the same and I'm already used to how cover works.

Combat is radically different.

WS counts for a huge amounts, parries are worth their weight in gold. Anything that has movement bonuses is dynamite because getting into B2B is difficult when you're only moving 4", don't get an assault move and the game only lasts for four turns...

A rock solid character like a powered up chief librarian is easily capable of massacring six marines single handed (he'd kill more but only six can get into B2B).

Vehicles aren't worth bothering with - they are 100% death traps, as are bikes.

Yeah, this is true, combat is super different. WS is really important, Attacks are both good and bad. Though Bloodthirsters have 10 attacks, they're going to be rolling at least a couple 1's.

As for vehicles, that's funny, it seems like either vehicles are super hard to kill or super easy to kill. For example, a Leman Russ Demolisher. Its turret is more or less impossible to destroy, and its hull is pretty hard to destroy as well. Of course, once you pen, that vehicle is more or less out of commission.

The problem with bikes and by extension Landspeeders that I saw is that they aren't very tough. Yeah they're tough against basic weapons but everything else will penetrate super-easily.

My friend plays Death/Ravenwing though, so most of the time my troops are going to get a -2 to hit at the very least against his bikers. In a way that makes up for it!
----
On a side note, I don't mind complex rules, however in interest of time (winter break) I feel like 2nd edition will be much easier for them (and for me) to understand. I have a good grasp of Rogue Trader, however the big problem there is that Spacewolves and Dark Angels don't really have army lists there.
----

@DarknessEternal-My friends play Spacewolves (which even in 2nd seem ridiculous, Njal is Str9 in combat) and Dark Angels, which seem pretty good 'cause they're Terminator focused.
As for me, I play Eldar and Khorne Legionnaires. Khorne Berzerkers in 2nd seem both better (with Frenzy and a 2+ save) and worse (less WS, less attacks).

Anyway, when we get going I'm going to post some battle reports. : )

Thanks for all the help, everyone

Ah, sweet, sweet 2nd Ed.

Looks like you've got the same armies (Eldar and Chaos) I used to run. A man of fine taste

How i miss my Eldar shuricat Guardian/jetbike/Vyper/falcon army. The sheer amount of firepower that thing put downrange was obscene.


If you end up playing a bigger game with your chaos at some point and really want to make your friend cry -

Chaos Lord
Terminator Armor w/ LC and combi-melta
All 4 Marks
L4 psyker
Power Field
Collar of Khorne
Praise of Khorne


He will straight-up murder everything he gets remotely close to, and be well-nigh impossible to kill. Just watch out for peksy Vortex Grenades

HI all.
2nd ed was a fun game , with the game play and NARRATIVE taking priority.
And about as big of a game as the WHFB rules could work with effectivley.

2nd ed 40k was an overcomplicated rule set that delivered detailed narrative skirmish games.

5th ed 40k is an overcomplicated rule set that delivers abstract 'bland ' games with more minatures.

If you want to play GWs 'sci-fantasy' games you just pick which over compicated rule set you prefer to use...

(If you prefer more game play per page of written rules, Fast and Dirty, and No limits are worth a look IMO.)

TTFN

You....DON'T PLAY WITH THE NEWEST EDITION!??!?!?


HERETIC!!!!!!!! (Throws Daemonhammer).

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
2nd ed was a fun game , with the game play and NARRATIVE taking priority.

I disagree with that.

What's "narrative" about playing one mission (kill each other) where everyone starts 24" apart, most people only move 4" and the game only lasts four turns? How does two armies plugging away at each other doing minimal damage while a character or two massacre their way through everything they can touch = narrative?

Rogue Trader was about narrative. 2nd edition was trying to be what 3-5th edition have become but with a ruleset that was slow and clunky.

Terminus wrote:Our 2nd edition games never took that long, and we played 2500+ all the time.

Are people getting stupider as time goes by, or what? 5th edition is way simplified, and yet people still don't know half the rules. I blame it on the fact that most people don't even read the rulebook beyond the basic turn sequence.

You are my fething hero I want to anoint your feet with precious oils and name my children after you. fething nerds gak me sometimes......

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:

He will straight-up murder everything he gets remotely close to, and be well-nigh impossible to kill. Just watch out for peksy Vortex Grenades

Pfft, A Guided Wraith Cannons was the answer to any problem like that. And, as you mention, an Exarch with a Vortex Grenade and Swooping Hawk wings.

This taught my friends that a naked 30 point champion was the best General.

Ahh 2nd edition. It's hard to fathom all that has changed since then. It had an interesting mix of depth and sheer insanity that lead to some pretty memorable moment. Shooting a krak missile at a tank and being disappointed that I hit the sponson... only to have the sponson flash back into the hull... then have the hull explode and drop a flaming turret on a squad of guys nearby. Epic

DarknessEternal wrote:

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:

He will straight-up murder everything he gets remotely close to, and be well-nigh impossible to kill. Just watch out for peksy Vortex Grenades

Pfft, A Guided Wraith Cannons was the answer to any problem like that. And, as you mention, an Exarch with a Vortex Grenade and Swooping Hawk wings.

This taught my friends that a naked 30 point champion was the best General.

Very true. Thankfully, I was also the only Eldar player at my FLGS

Tactical squad with 10 marines, chainsword for sergeant, missile launcher, flamer, krak grenades... 386 points in 2nd edition. Force requirements are a mandatory 1 Commander and that 50% force has to be non-characters/vehicles... a librarian costs around 200-300 if you deck him out, and randomly draws cards for psykic power so yeah have fun with 750 points. FO goes out the window, and points are essentially doubled. BUT..... you get to use OVERWATCH!!!!! dang I miss overwatch. Game is far too dumbed down now for people to fathom such a thing.

Wish I was there to play with you. I cut my teeth on 2nd edition.it was slower with all the modifiers but still fun and my eldar could kill those marines.



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I loved my scatter lasers.




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You should post a battle report.

Almost makes me wanna root out my old 2nd ed codex and have a blast of things.
Let us know how things go with the game, a batrep would be great.

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:
Chaos Lord
Terminator Armor w/ LC and combi-melta
All 4 Marks
L4 psyker
Power Field
Collar of Khorne
Praise of Khorne

He will straight-up murder everything he gets remotely close to, and be well-nigh impossible to kill. Just watch out for peksy Vortex Grenades

That character is bogus, you weren't allowed the Collar of Khorne as a psyker.

Anyway, Space Wolves and Dark Angels were quite acceptable in 2nd edtion. Especially Space Wolves, with their 20-man Wolfguard squads each sporting a cyclone missile launcher and assault cannon. Andy Chambers was such a cheese-monger.

Terminus wrote:

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:
Chaos Lord
Terminator Armor w/ LC and combi-melta
All 4 Marks
L4 psyker
Power Field
Collar of Khorne
Praise of Khorne

He will straight-up murder everything he gets remotely close to, and be well-nigh impossible to kill. Just watch out for peksy Vortex Grenades

That character is bogus, you weren't allowed the Collar of Khorne as a psyker.

Anyway, Space Wolves and Dark Angels were quite acceptable in 2nd edtion. Especially Space Wolves, with their 20-man Wolfguard squads each sporting a cyclone missile launcher and assault cannon. Andy Chambers was such a cheese-monger.

One would think that, but I have a 2nd ed Chaos codex sitting next to me that says otherwise. Also by Andy Chalmers. Most definitely a cheese monger.

Guitardian wrote:Tactical squad with 10 marines, chainsword for sergeant, missile launcher, flamer, krak grenades... 386 points in 2nd edition. Force requirements are a mandatory 1 Commander and that 50% force has to be non-characters/vehicles... a librarian costs around 200-300 if you deck him out, and randomly draws cards for psykic power so yeah have fun with 750 points. FO goes out the window, and points are essentially doubled. BUT..... you get to use OVERWATCH!!!!! dang I miss overwatch. Game is far too dumbed down now for people to fathom such a thing.

Well, the thing is that we aren't going to be using psychic powers for the first couple of games as it's additional complication. Once we get more used to how the ruleset works, then we'll add in vehicles and psykers. That being said, upping the game to 1000 wouldn't be a bad idea.

@ Maenus_Rajhana- Haha yes, I only use the best. : )

And yes, I'm definitely going to be posting battle reports. I will get one done hopefully this weekend, if not, then next weekend for sure.

If you're going for just infantry then, I'd recommend an Eldar guardian gunline. Shuricats were bar none the best basic infantry weapon in the game in 2nd ed, and IIRC, a shuricat guardian was almost exactly half the cost of a standard marine. A flood of those, backed up by a squad of Banshees to counter-charge anything that gets close and a scatter laser or d-cannon or two for added firepower, and you've got a pretty rock-solid core for your army.

Maenus_Rajhana wrote:If you're going for just infantry then, I'd recommend an Eldar guardian gunline. Shuricats were bar none the best basic infantry weapon in the game in 2nd ed, and IIRC, a shuricat guardian was almost exactly half the cost of a standard marine. A flood of those, backed up by a squad of Banshees to counter-charge anything that gets close and a scatter laser or d-cannon or two for added firepower, and you've got a pretty rock-solid core for your army.

Yeah dude, I just looked at the Shuricat stats. No wonder they were nerfed into oblivion in 3rd.

We're going to be playing for fun so while in competition I wouldn't mind the suggested list, I figure I'll keep it simple.

Anyway, I played a solitaire game at 500 points. A squad of Marines with a Heavy Bolter, a standard bearer, and a squad of Arbites versus 16 Cultists, 8 Khorne Berserkers+Asp Champ, and 4 Chaos Marines.

It was because I rolled well with the Heavy Bolter which allowed the Marines to win, amongst other things. First turn I roll two 3's, second turn I rolled a 3 and a 2. It pretty much owned.

Also, I discovered that simply charging troops forth DOES NOT work well, at all, like it does in current 40k. Cultists were going down left and right. At the end of Turn 4, the Marines and Arbites were practically unharmed and the Chaos forces were in tatters.

Space Marine gunlines are insane, especially with Rapid Fire.

Next game I want to see how disgusting Terminators are.

It was enjoyable though. I like the Allies system and I wish that it would be brought back. Would make for more interesting matches and scenarios!

Playing 2nd edition? Previous editions are like old girlfriends and tax returns. Put them in a closet and never look at them again.

You sir, are crazy!!

I know exactly how they feel. You think: "oh, I remember playing Mechwarrior III! That game had so such customization, and some epic fire-fights!" Then you load the thing up, realize the fire fights aren't epic because your armor is cardboard, and storing extra ammunition in your shoulders because you can is just asking for an ammo explosion. Then you go back to playing MW4:Mercs on MTX for a faster, more balanced game.


...Even after saying that, I can feel the tug of MWIII. And Hellgate London. Hell, and Modern Warfare 2.

Well I've been playing some test games of 2nd edition, just using 500 points with no vehicles or psykers.

I'm actually surprised at the amount of stuff you can fit in a 500 point game. Then again, you can fit even more into a current 40k game at 500 so no big deal there!

Things I like about 2nd edition so far:

-Everything dies fast (sans Terminators ), even characters. Note that I haven't really begun introducing Lascannon and Assault Cannon into the games yet, so I imagine that things will die even faster, even Terminators.
-Cover. I have always liked the idea of modifiers rather than cover saves.
-Shooting is actually really effective
-Close Combat requires actual tactics to pull off
-Swords. Parries rule. : )

Things I'm not a fan of:
-Short game length. 4 turns just isn't enough. Then again, pretty much everything is dead by that point, it's just that you feel a little cheated.
-Hand to Hand combat requiring you to be base-to-base. If you could be within 1/2", then that'd be a lot better.


Those are my thoughts so far. I'm loving the combinations of allies. I'm almost a little sad that I traded off my Imperial Guard. (Naht)

Just finished playing a game with Chaos marines versus Exodite eldar with some aspect warriors. Pretty sweet stuff.

Chaos combi bolters are brutal, the reaper autocannon is just mean. The Assault Cannon must be even more painful to endure.