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I don't want this turning into a er thread or anyhing, but I was reading C:BA, specifically mephiston's entry, in which in the fluff section, he was a libby that join the death company, got crushed under a building, cast out the black rage, burst out of the ruin and killed about 30 orks with his bare hands. After this he now is S6, T6, W5, I7 and A4. This, to me, makes little sense- just because he surpassed the black rage, how does that then mean he suddenly has a monstrous creatures stats? To me it seems GW just wanted to make a uber-killy SM unit by any means necessary. Just my two pence on a controvesial subject. Is it just me?

Nope, I'm actually wondering why the BA aren't considered a renegade chapter yet.

So are you complaining more from a tabletop perspective? Or a fluff perspective? Not that I'm for what mephiston is. He just seems silly to be honest.

It does seem quite unlikely that this would happen, but any excuse for GW to make a Super-killy character for any of their MEQ armies will do. Not that I and fellow BA players are complaining of course. To mitigate it, he isn't an IC, so a few las/ plas shots is all it takes to bring him down.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:It does seem quite unlikely that this would happen, but any excuse for GW to make a Super-killy character for any of their MEQ armies will do. Not that I and fellow BA players are complaining of course. To mitigate it, he isn't an IC, so a few las/ plas shots is all it takes to bring him down.

at T6 nothing can ID him, short of force weapons, and he has a psychic hood, so that's unlikely, and if you pass the psy test, he's I7.
if you're tigirius using might of the ancients, quickening and the force weapon? 5's to hit, 4's to wound. 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound.
shooting? a LC to the face still needs an average of 9 to kill him. 6 hit, 5 wound.
he is, in effect, a S10 I7 5-wound carnifex that flies around with preferred enemy, a plasma pistol, force weapon, 2+ Sv, force weapon, psychic hood and fleet.
and that isn't OTT or OP.

Lexx wrote:So are you complaining more from a tabletop perspective? Or a fluff perspective? Not that I'm for what mephiston is. He just seems silly to be honest.

fluff perspective- it's in 40k background.

From a fluff perspective, I imagine he's not approaching monstrous creature stats but Sanguinius's stats. Perhaps that's what the Black Rage does, if you're strong enough to not be destroyed by the process, just as a recruit's stay in a sarcophagus after drinking the blood of Sanguinius transforms the strong into Space Marines.

From a fluff perspective it makes no sense that those events would turn him into such a freaking beast. Now if he made some sort of pact with chaos, that would make some sense...

but still- wouldn't someone like the sanguinor have close to sanguinius's stats?
For me, his fluff makes no sense, his rules make no sense, the model is terrible, and there should never be MC stats on a 25mm base.
but compared to other BA stuff it makes perfect sense. Compared with deepstriking land raiders, flying bricks, dreadnoughts hanging onto the backs of said flying bricks, dreadnought tractor beams and jump infrantry, "because they are", being better at deep striking than everyone else, it makes perfect sense!

Come on now, I've had the Marneus Calgar and Abba-Dabba chese stuffed in my face for years. Now we get a totally over the top character and everyone gets mad?
I do agree he's a little too much, I shook my head first reading the entry and it's a shame because in previous editions I loved ole Mephy (here's a tip, shoot him with something big and he dies. He at least used to have a refractor field)

marneus is cheesey, but not OTT or OP.
"shoot him with something big"...it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.

shrike wrote:marneus is cheesey, but not OTT or OP.
"shoot him with something big"...it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.

Bring Him Down?

How much does he cost anyway?

250pts.

shrike wrote:but still- wouldn't someone like the sanguinor have close to sanguinius's stats?

Why would he? Because of the 5th edition's naming conventions?

For me, his fluff makes no sense, his rules make no sense, the model is terrible, and there should never be MC stats on a 25mm base.

The fluff is fine. Given that the Blood Angels use a completely different way of creating space marines to everyone else, it makes sense that the end point might be different.

The model is not terrible, it's just showing its age.

AlexHolker wrote:

shrike wrote:but still- wouldn't someone like the sanguinor have close to sanguinius's stats?

Why would he? Because of the 5th edition's naming conventions?

For me, his fluff makes no sense, his rules make no sense, the model is terrible, and there should never be MC stats on a 25mm base.

The fluff is fine. Given that the Blood Angels use a completely different way of creating space marines to everyone else, it makes sense that the end point might be different.

The model is not terrible, it's just showing its age.

because the sanguinor is a ghostly creature like LotD, killing stuff like avatars.
yes, but basically, his life story:
was a good libby
succumbed to the black rage
joined the DC
got crushed under a building
overcame his madness
popped out, killed 30 orks with his bare hands
now runs around killing carnifexes with his bare hands
practically invincible

"The model isn't terrible, it's just showing it's age."

sigged!

shrike wrote:250pts.

Please, you're telling me you can't put anything together that won't completely make a mess of him in two turns of shooting?

No, I just don't tend to carry around 400 points worth of devestator squads, or anything like that.
His rules make no sense.

I'm thinking something more along the lines of two lascannon teams and a command squad, but whatever floats your boat.

It doesn't help that as a human-sized model, he'll get cover saves/not be seen a large amount of the time, compared to say a carnifex or daemon prince.

If I remember correctly he's also got that 'move as jump infantry' psychic power.

You do remember correctly...
And two lines of lascannon infantry? Try saying that to my 'nids... The thing rips the head off of anything without lash-whips in a single round of combat. All comers list? Forget about it, if I need to focus that much time taking down a single model, while the rest of my opponents army is shoving itself down my throat, i'm going to fail. The only time i've faced him, he stupidly charged my prime, who subsequently made him I1, and beat the god knows what out of him with its bone-swords... He still ripped himself through my lines with his MASSIVE charge range of insta-gib...

Aside from that, why would over-coming the Black Rage cause you to be able to eat bolter rounds, and lasguns to bounce off your skin! To be able to strangle orks with your hands is understandable, but even the emperor was almost strangled to death by an ork!

Footsloggin wrote:Aside from that, why would over-coming the Black Rage cause you to be able to eat bolter rounds, and lasguns to bounce off your skin!

I've given my hypothesis: that sleeping in a sarcophagus for a year triggers a partial change, but there's no inherent reason this should represent the limits of Sanguinius's blood. Mephiston's fall to the Black Rage and subsequent imprisonment might have triggered a second more complete apotheosis.

To be able to strangle orks with your hands is understandable, but even the emperor was almost strangled to death by an ork!

Not all orks are equal. Without the Imperium to cull their numbers, the Age of Strife may have allowed some exceptionally massive ork empires to come into existence, with warlords to match.

Are you suggesting that the Black Rage is not an affliction? But rather a right of passage and evolution for strongest of Blood Angels?

There are those persistent rumors that Mephiston's transformation is the result of something more sinister...

Honestly, i look at it this way, he is the closest we will ever see to a primarch on the table, and the stats and fluff support that. Look at the black library novels, Fulgrim ripped an avatar apart with his bare hands, Russ and Magnus fighting was described as wrecking city blocks and Sanguinus held back a demon army by himself and broke a bloodthirster over his knee.

Now look at the things the Meph is good at taking apart, Avatars, Carnifexes, and other big monsterous things, just like the legends of old. Given that the blood angels have the most direct connection to there Primarch, because of how they are made it makes sense that if any marine would have this kind of transformation it would be him.

Commander Endova wrote:There are those persistent rumors that Mephiston's transformation is the result of something more sinister...

KHORNE!!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD... wait... I mean FOR THE EMPRAH!

But in all Honesty i cold see overcoming the Black Raeg. ( ) Cause minor changes but nothing like this.

Maybe his increase in stats is basically him learning more how to harness his new found powers after conquering the black rage. He is OP but still has no invul save IIRC not unkillable just dnt go CC with him unless you want to lose. I love his character think he is pretty awesome

My view is that overcoming the black rage is something abnormal and it would take immense willpower and mental strength to overcome, plus maybe when he overcame the blackrage, he permanently gained the bonuses from it (and since he is a special character.... more bonus), probably a one in a Imperium chance.

Meph.... hmm where to start. Hope I dont butcher any lore too much

The big three in the BA lore currently (imo) is corb, meph and dante. Each know their chapter is doomed, are trying to find ways to slow their degredation and fall, and all have foreseen their end will be a sacrifice for big E himself.

This is resultant to the blood practices they use during the initiatory process, giving them the most direct connection to their primarch, more so then any marine chapter. The black rage/red thirst is also a effect of that close tie a direct extension of Sanguinius's anger.

Meph in my opinion be able to overcome the black rage has become closer to his primarch in ability then any prior. This is only made more apparent from his prior skills as a librarian.

Kinda like
Marine + psyker = bad ass armored jedi
Marine + black rage = psycho fearless rending monster
Marine + psyker + controlled black rage = bad ass psycho armoured fearless rending jedi monster with a cool nickname.

He would have those stats when he was suffering the black rage, not after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:

CommissarCandlestick wrote:It does seem quite unlikely that this would happen, but any excuse for GW to make a Super-killy character for any of their MEQ armies will do. Not that I and fellow BA players are complaining of course. To mitigate it, he isn't an IC, so a few las/ plas shots is all it takes to bring him down.

at T6 nothing can ID him, short of force weapons, and he has a psychic hood, so that's unlikely, and if you pass the psy test, he's I7.
if you're tigirius using might of the ancients, quickening and the force weapon? 5's to hit, 4's to wound. 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound.
shooting? a LC to the face still needs an average of 9 to kill him. 6 hit, 5 wound.
he is, in effect, a S10 I7 5-wound carnifex that flies around with preferred enemy, a plasma pistol, force weapon, 2+ Sv, force weapon, psychic hood and fleet.
and that isn't OTT or OP.

Lexx wrote:So are you complaining more from a tabletop perspective? Or a fluff perspective? Not that I'm for what mephiston is. He just seems silly to be honest.

fluff perspective- it's in 40k background.

But he can't join units, and has no invun, so as CommissarCandlestick said, he would get taken down by lascannons and plasma cannons/guns.

Footsloggin wrote:You do remember correctly...
And two lines of lascannon infantry? Try saying that to my 'nids... The thing rips the head off of anything without lash-whips in a single round of combat. All comers list? Forget about it, if I need to focus that much time taking down a single model, while the rest of my opponents army is shoving itself down my throat, i'm going to fail. The only time i've faced him, he stupidly charged my prime, who subsequently made him I1, and beat the god knows what out of him with its bone-swords... He still ripped himself through my lines with his MASSIVE charge range of insta-gib...

Aside from that, why would over-coming the Black Rage cause you to be able to eat bolter rounds, and lasguns to bounce off your skin! To be able to strangle orks with your hands is understandable, but even the emperor was almost strangled to death by an ork!

he was captured by m'kar- the daemon prince that kills people by looking at them? the one who nearly wiped out the first company? the one who nearly killed calgar and agemann? the one who has come back to life 3 times? yeah, him. Meph apparently strangled him with his bare hands.

Commander Endova wrote:There are those persistent rumors that Mephiston's transformation is the result of something more sinister...

M'kar asked meph if he wanted to join him, insisting he was destined to join the path of chaos...

He is ridiculous.

The answer to him is lascannons but he is so tiny he can usually get cover from your heavy weapons.