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ChocolateGork wrote:The answer to him is lascannons.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:a few las shots is all it takes to bring him down.

Lokirfellheart wrote:he would get taken down by lascannons.

shrike wrote:it would take 9 lascannons to the face to kill him.

I mean, what fluff is there to justify a flying, S10, I7, T6, W5, force-weapon wielding psyker?
fluffwise, he can make himself be stronger than a carnifex, is as tough as a carnifex, eats lascannon rounds, flies around on invisible wings and rips apart daemon princes and carnifexes?
just because he survived the black rage.
that makes sense.

I dont play BA but ive always wondered about putting him with a librarian with a jump pack and a storm shield. And using shield of sanguinius to give him a 5+ save of sorts.

you can't give libbies SS unless they have TDA. (Unless you're using my chief librarian, of course):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327781.page

Could he be in Termie armour and be an epistolary so he can use wings and shield?

Funny thing about Mephistion complainers is they don't usually realise he's not fearless. Chances are low, but if in multiple combats, he can be sweeping advanced.

Additionally, in the older dex, he was still nearly as good as he is now. He gained 1 wound, 1 WS, 1 S, 1T, 1 I... and in return, can no longer join units, loses Fearless and Feel No Pain.

and he now costs 25 points more.

Given the progressive power nature of every codex, it doesn't surprise me he's in the state he is now.


and lastly, if you hate him THAT damn much, slap Skulltaker against him and be done with it.

My 2 pence.

yeah- I play GK, DKoK and SM. I'm not starting a new army just to kill one unit.


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ChocolateGork wrote:Could he be in Termie armour and be an epistolary so he can use wings and shield?

aah...I am now going to do that. thanks.
I'll use wings and eithe blood lance or might of heroes.

WGXH wrote:Funny thing about Mephistion complainers is they don't usually realise he's not fearless. Chances are low, but if in multiple combats, he can be sweeping advanced.

Additionally, in the older dex, he was still nearly as good as he is now. He gained 1 wound, 1 WS, 1 S, 1T, 1 I... and in return, can no longer join units, loses Fearless and Feel No Pain.

First off, Meph rarely ever loses combat against my 'Nids or Marines(haven't played them here yet, but I don't plan on it considering I play an Infantry heavy list), so sweeping advance just does not work.

Second, 1W 1WS 1S 1T, and 1I, an increase of Toughness from 5 to 6 is MAJOR. It means anything S10 can no longer insta-gib you. He strikes at I7, and rips apart anything he touches with his S10 weapon psychic power.

Third, losing Fearless means he doesn't take wounds if he loses CC, instead he has to pass a leadership test at LD10, it's pretty hard to fail. Feel No Pain? You can still give it to him. Can't join units? He can fly around into any cover with his massive movement, effectively obscuring your big gun's LoS.

And if he overcame the Black Rage, why didn't he become fearless?

Basically:
fluff beleivability: 1/10
though his surpassing the black rage is beleivable, him being in effect, a primarch, makes no sense.
rules believability: 1/10
same reason
rules balance: 2/10
he has a psychic hood, so that's pretty hard to use against him, he has a S10 force weapon, counts as jump infrantry, is I7, T6, W5, 2+ Sv, and has furious charge. He is Ld10, so he won't fail morale and get sweeping andvanced, and can survive 8 lascannons to the face. tell me that isn't OP or OTT.

way to kill him inside his points range-
hit him with flyers. Vendettas work best. it'll take 3 rounds of shooting with the LC's, but still, he can't touch you while youu do it. Only problem with that is, him being in a BA army, they'll stormraven your flyer first.

n0t_u wrote:Nope, I'm actually wondering why the BA aren't considered a renegade chapter yet.

oh come on, saying the BA are a renegade chapter for their Death company is like saying the Space wolves should be renegade for having wulfen, the imperium's gotta have some uber killy death machines in there somewhere to combat all the other epic BS everyone else has.

Hey guys, you know he can kill himself in one turn right? If you fail you psychic test and his plasma pistol gets hot, he's dead. Either make him shoot a lot or have him do tons of psychic goodness, and he will eventually blow himself up. And if that doesn't work, BRING IT DOWN might, or some lasscannons, or a vindicator.

plasma devs laugh at Mephy. Then again, they laugh at most things that aren't a vehicle with armor 12+

Mephy can't be swept. He is still a marine so he has the, "And They Shall Never Get Removed From The Table After Losing Combat Like Everyone Else Because They Are The Poster Boys" special rule.

Happygrunt wrote:Hey guys, you know he can kill himself in one turn right? If you fail you psychic test and his plasma pistol gets hot, he's dead. Either make him shoot a lot or have him do tons of psychic goodness, and he will eventually blow himself up. And if that doesn't work, BRING IT DOWN might, or some lasscannons, or a vindicator.

how many times?
a) it's pretty unlikely that he rolls 5 double-1's.
b) IT WOULD TAKE NINE LASCANNONS TO KILL HIM.
c) Bring it down! won't work- MC's and vehicles only.
d) it would take 12 demolisher cannon shots to kill him. (assuming that there's a 1/3 to hit, and then the chances of scattering but still hitting are 1/2)

the things I can think of for killing mephiston:

lysander vs mephiston:
0.74 wounds on lysander (3.26 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (2.2 left)
0.74 wounds on lysander (2.51 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (dead).
lysander could kill mephiston with 2 or 3 wounds left.

ghazghkull vs mephiston:
1.6 wounds on ghaz (2.4 left)
2 wounds on meph (3 left)
ghazghkull launches a waagh!
0.2 wounds on ghazghkull (2.2 left)
2 wounds on meph (1 left)
waagh! remains going
0.2 wounds on ghaz (2 left)
2 wounds on meph (dead).
waagh! stops (2 turns, give ghazghkull a 2++)

You guys are all saying "lascannons! Plasmacannons!", I Mind War him to death, once you get past the hood, I've taken him down in one go, but just in case, I run two farseers.

Remember, background/fluff.....not tactics guys .

The fluff basically states his gene seed being dormant, coupled with the Black Rage caused some physical transformation. It also states '...when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place.". Given his Daemon Prince states, I'm thinking maybe....

Anyways, it's Ward. His fluff is over the top, I wouldn't let it eat you up.

so what unit from each race can kill him?

orks- ghazghkull
SM- lysander
IG- vendetta
Eldar- farseer

yarrick vs mephiston:
0.9 wounds on yarrick (2.1 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (4.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (1.2 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (4 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (0.3 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (3.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (dead.)
yarrick gets back up (iron will)
0.5 wounds on meph (3 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (0.1 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (2.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (dead)
yarrick gets back up (iron will)
0.5 wounds on meph (2 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (0.1 left)
0.5 wounds on meph (1.5 left)
0.9 wounds on yarrick (dead.)
doesn't get back up.
ah. With IG, you either have to be really lucky with your iron will rolls, or have a vendetta.

mephiston vs vendetta:
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.991 left)
1.6 wounds on meph (3.4 left)
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.982 left)
1.6 wounds on meph (1.8 left)
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.973 left)
1.6 on meph (0.2 left)
0.009 destroyed on the vendetta (0.964 left)
1.6 on meph (dead.)

shrike wrote:
a) it's pretty unlikely that he rolls 5 double-1's.

Or double six's.

And Meph is probably much closer to the primarch then anyone else. But the chaos angle on him makes him very interesting. I guess we will have to wait to see what GW do with him...

hopefull make him either:
a) get crushed by a third building and die
b) succumb to the black rage and charge headlong into a waagh!/hive fleet/craftworld/the warp
c) succumb to the black rage and get executed by astorath
d) turn to chaos and get killed by grey knights
END THE MADNESS!

He costs 2XX points.
Is not Eternal Warrior.
Can not join a unit.
Has no invul save.

Is it really that hard to shoot him up with a bunch of AP1/AP2 stuff?

he's I7.
he has 5 wounds.
he has 4 attacks.
he's toughness 6, so he can't be ID'd.
he has a S10 force weapon.
he counts as jump infrantry.
he has a 2+ Sv.
he can use 3 psy powers a turn.
he's S6 standard.
Yes he is that OP and hard to kill
9 SM LASCANNONS.

I think this thread needs to die. Shrike has no interest in actually listening to in-universe justifications for Mephiston's power, and keeps on dragging it off-topic.

He's not hard to kill at all.

Where's your plasma and meltaguns?

Where's your librarian to cancel his powers?

Where's your SS terminators to lock him down?

sorry, I fail to see how I "keep dragging it OT"
my posts have been:
why I don't like mephiston
explaining to someone that I was talking about from a fluff perspective
working out what could kill him and summing him up in 1 sentence
talking about his OTTness compared with other BA units
talking some more about what it would take to kill him
telling someone how many points he costs
talking about how he became so good in the fluff
talking some more about how to kill him
answering some questions
speculating about what GW holds in store for meph in the future
talking some more about how to kill him
answering some more questions
rating meph's beleivability and fairness
some mathhammer on what could kill him
some more on speculating meph's future
summing up his OP-ness
and posting this.
EVERYTHING I POSTED WAS ABOUT MEPHISTON*
*or BA libarian-related.

AlexHolker wrote:I think this thread needs to die. Shrike has no interest in actually listening to in-universe justifications for Mephiston's power, and keeps on dragging it off-topic.

I think the point he is making is that there is no in-universe justification for his power. If you compare his TT power to his background there is no justification for it at all.

shrike wrote:he's I7.
he has 5 wounds.
he has 4 attacks.
he's toughness 6, so he can't be ID'd.
he has a S10 force weapon.
he counts as jump infrantry.
he has a 2+ Sv.
he can use 3 psy powers a turn.
he's S6 standard.
Yes he is that OP and hard to kill
9 SM LASCANNONS.

And looking at this, are your 9 Lascannons going to matter? Odds are you will never get all 9 in LoS of him at the start of the game, and you still have the REST of the army to deal with! Any good player will just sit him behind a Rhino, and jump him around killing whatever he well pleases.


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Tzeentchling9 wrote:Mephy can't be swept. He is still a marine so he has the, "And They Shall Never Get Removed From The Table After Losing Combat Like Everyone Else Because They Are The Poster Boys" special rule.

Oh yes, and sigged!

AgeOfEgos wrote:Remember, background/fluff.....not tactics guys .

The fluff basically states his gene seed being dormant, coupled with the Black Rage caused some physical transformation. It also states '...when he mastered the Black Rage something altogether more terrible took its place.". Given his Daemon Prince states, I'm thinking maybe....

Anyways, it's Ward. His fluff is over the top, I wouldn't let it eat you up.

New strategy, throw the Watchers in the Dark at him, the buggers are invulnerable and he'll eventually get buried

Personally, I thought his fluff was kinda cool. Makes sense? Well no, but it followed the only rule that GW seems to follow and as over the top as it may be I'm fine with it.

Luco wrote:Makes sense? Well no, but it followed the only rule that GW seems to follow.

what rule is that? MEQ must be the best? MEQ must have the most OP and OTT units? I bet it's something like that...

shrike wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:Hey guys, you know he can kill himself in one turn right? If you fail you psychic test and his plasma pistol gets hot, he's dead. Either make him shoot a lot or have him do tons of psychic goodness, and he will eventually blow himself up. And if that doesn't work, BRING IT DOWN might, or some lasscannons, or a vindicator.

how many times?
a) it's pretty unlikely that he rolls 5 double-1's.
b) IT WOULD TAKE NINE LASCANNONS TO KILL HIM.
c) Bring it down! won't work- MC's and vehicles only.
d) it would take 12 demolisher cannon shots to kill him. (assuming that there's a 1/3 to hit, and then the chances of scattering but still hitting are 1/2)

the things I can think of for killing mephiston:

lysander vs mephiston:
0.74 wounds on lysander (3.26 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (2.2 left)
0.74 wounds on lysander (2.51 left)
2.7 wounds on meph (dead).
lysander could kill mephiston with 2 or 3 wounds left.

ghazghkull vs mephiston:
1.6 wounds on ghaz (2.4 left)
2 wounds on meph (3 left)
ghazghkull launches a waagh!
0.2 wounds on ghazghkull (2.2 left)
2 wounds on meph (1 left)
waagh! remains going
0.2 wounds on ghaz (2 left)
2 wounds on meph (dead).
waagh! stops (2 turns, give ghazghkull a 2++)

Thats assuming lysander doesnt get mind f^&@ed by him. And that is more likely than it isnt.

Instead of crying about how OP he is, why not try and find simple workarounds to counteract him?
A Death company squad with some power weapons/fists of roughly the same point cost can make mincemeat of Meph in a single round.
Guardsman can use a blob with a commissar, a Psyker battle squad to tank his leadership, or worst case scenario- just pile on volume of fire from a few chimeras.
Farseers with dire avengers can do a nasty volume of fire with rerolls, or even a squad of fire dragons jumping out of a wave serpent and pouring shots into him.
Hell, Tyranid warriors with lash whips and boneswords do things to Mephiston that should be illegal, let alone the pricier HQ types, Broodlords with stealers, etc.

From a fluff point of view, sure it's a stretch, but reading almost ANY of the fluff can stretch your credulity if you are trying to think about how 'unrealistic' it is. Does riding a wold mean a marine is now immune to being blown apart by an anti tank missile? According to the book, it sure does!

shrike wrote:Basically:
fluff beleivability: 1/10
though his surpassing the black rage is beleivable, him being in effect, a primarch, makes no sense.
rules believability: 1/10
same reason
rules balance: 2/10
he has a psychic hood, so that's pretty hard to use against him, he has a S10 force weapon, counts as jump infrantry, is I7, T6, W5, 2+ Sv, and has furious charge. He is Ld10, so he won't fail morale and get sweeping andvanced, and can survive 8 lascannons to the face. tell me that isn't OP or OTT.

way to kill him inside his points range-
hit him with flyers. Vendettas work best. it'll take 3 rounds of shooting with the LC's, but still, he can't touch you while youu do it. Only problem with that is, him being in a BA army, they'll stormraven your flyer first.

Actually with fleet he could catch you.