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Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me


thoughts? input?

There was a store in Kingston, ON that had a store membership program, but it was for discounts, not for use of their facilities so to speak. That's really odd. Personally, I would not be giving that store my business.

Did they explain why?

just2fierce wrote:

Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me


thoughts? input?

Hmm...charging to use the terrain and play, seems a little unusual.

But bought your army online, and want to use it's facilities free of charge on regular occasion, GTFO parasite! (Sorry if that seems a little strongly worded, but hey, you haven't supported your store, why should they support you?)

There are multiple stores that have tried this sort of thing. It normally doesn't work. I am a strong advocate for paying where you play, though. If you use a store's facilities to play in, but do the majority of your shopping online, you are something of a parasite. If they provide good gaming tables and good customer service, you really should be giving them business in return. Both out of gratitude and to make sure they stay open and you can keep playing there!

Generally I don't see the IDEA of a membership as a terrible thing, as long as you're getting something for your money. A lot of stores do membership programs which come with a discount or other services.

A new store in my town has a "pay to play" gaming area, but also sells a monthly membership where you choose how much you want to buy in for, and the membership gets you x number of play passes, store credit equal to the cost of the membership, and some additional services such as access to a library of games in the store which you can use. It's a pretty decent deal, and helps the store get a more regular reliable source of income.

Oh, almost forgot. There are also gaming clubs which aren't part of a store and collect dues from the members to pay for gaming space, terrain, and such. I know of one in the Boston area, and one in New York, but usually that's more common in the UK and other countries, AFAIK.

Not sure of the online army thing, but I have known some store that charged a modest fee... $5-10 a month for table/computer (AB) use.... not all that outrageous.

just2fierce wrote:Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain........

Well what if you buy half of your models from them? Do they take a note and watch which ones you try to use on the table?

I think the best thing is for a store to either provide a space for free or charge everyone a nominal amount. If you charge everyone a small amount you could make the place a really nice place to game and people would pay for that comfort and convenience otherwise they'll just stay at home.

no real explaination but I did find this on their website......

I have decided that the store will provide a membership. This will be a paid membership that will at first provide members with access to playing on members only tables. The tables will be available only to paying members. The tables will not be put away if their is no space left due to many people coming into play games. I will provide some table space for open gaming. The open tables will be first come first serve and from now on only available to our customers (if you buy online you cant play here with your online army). The members will have to fill out an application that will have an agreement clause in it that will state if you damage the table or terrain you will pay for the damages. The application will be open to all of our customers I will only refuse access based on how I know you treat terrain. If you treat it poorly you will not be approved. If members damage terrain or tables they will pay damages and then be suspended for a period of time determined by the agreement. I will write up the agreement soon and post when this will be available.

Some of you were here this weekend when the tables were out and have seen first how nice they are. If you are interested then keep checking here and I will have an agreement up soon.

Some of you may not like this idea. I realize you have had the opportunity (not right) to play here for free. You may think I buy here and should play for free. That is not the case. I give this to you out of kindness. Bowling alleys dont let you play free because you bought a ball. Theaters dont let you watch movies free because you bought popcorn (I support the store because I bought a drink, false). I will still provide space out of kindness please be kind to me and stop acting like you are entitled to all of this. This is a great place to play and hangout I provide many reasons to shop and play here. Enjoy it respect it.

also found this.........posted by owner of store
non members who are paying customers are welcome to our open tables like they have been for years. non customers as in internet business is not welcome period. Yes this is a bold statement but if you buy online and come in and buy the occasional drink or some 5 bucks here and there I dont need you. It is simply a need to stay open. if you are in here playing on my tables and my real customers run out of room because of this customer they are a burden. also they are no longer welcome to reap the benefits of a great store. Loyalty is rewarded with a place to play and people to play with. along with all the other great things we provide.
Dont get me wrong it doesnt change that I may still like you or would love any of your business I simply cant afford and will not allow it anymore. Much love to all who support us.


So far this is how it works. If you are currently and continue to buy elsewhere please do not come here anymore you are no longer welcome. I know this sounds harsh but I need to take care of my customers. If you are playing here and not buying here then you are basically mooching off of me. Not acceptable anymore.
As for playing. There will be some tables that are open to all of our customers. And there will be some that are member only.

Jan is going to be our member start date. I will finalize everything soon

I don't know how he's going to enforce the internet armies thing. The quoted text sounds like he's upset over it, and maybe a little desperate to get some more cashflow.

He does seem to be continuing to offer some free gaming space, and more and better tables with access only for the members.

Don't know if it'll work out, or is possibly a last-ditch tactic of a store that's failing. If this is a store you like and want to keep around, it's worth supporting them with your money.

I only ever get up there like 3 times a year cause it's a 2 hour drive versus my local 30minute commute to my home store, I just found it really strange and this store has been there a LONG TIME and has a VERY large local following in the town where it is!!!!

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I think the best thing is for a store to either provide a space for free or charge everyone a nominal amount. If you charge everyone a small amount you could make the place a really nice place to game and people would pay for that comfort and convenience otherwise they'll just stay at home.

In a perfect world that is what would happen, but it seems more and more store owners are out to bleed whatever they can from the locals, screwing the long term consequences. Take for instance one local store. Our club had been running monthly tournaments there for about a year. The club supplies the terrain, the materials, the advertising, the judging. The store provides space, and the tables to lay our mats and terrain on. On tournament days we were generally drawing 10-16 people (which 16 is about the cap, and even that is VERY cramped). Most of the time we'd draw in some people who live out of town and drive up to support the club (and by way of that the store since they don't have one within normal driving distance). They'd drop 200-300 dollars (combined) each visit, plus we'd buy our prize support from the store. All of a sudden, because business in general was going bad for the store, they wanted us to start paying a rather hefty fee up front to use the space, plus they wanted to dictate the way we set up our tournaments, etc. Now, this would have gone over better if the store owner hadn't dropped this on us on a day where he hadn't just sold $500+ in 40k and other items (comics, RPG books, paint, etc) to our players. So we pulled out of the store, stopped hosting anything, and our player base stopped shopping there. Less than 6 months later the store had to move to a smaller location that will see far less traffic for the shop. While we knew they were having trouble before, I think our departure sped up the process of them losing their prime space (in a heavily trafficked shopping district).

Moral of my story is if the store is asking you to pay for nothing except space, there is always a better alternative. While they may not like it, online shopping plays just as much an important part of the hobby as the local brick and mortar.

Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

I buy most of my stuff online for a simple reason, I buy Forge World models. Anytime I buy paints it comes from a local store.Thing is, I can't buy my army offline, any store that would reject me from playing because I bought my army online would not only stop seeing me, but any player in my friend circle, had they bought their army there or not.

I know of one store that makes you pay for table usage, 5$ per hour I believe. They never got me buying there or playing there, it's very simple: I can buy at the same price at other stores and I can play at those stores too, without an hourly fee.

If a store rejects a player because he hasn't bought his army there, they reject any player that come from other stores and players that just moved in town not only those who bought their armies online.

I have no problem with someone having those policies, I simply won't shop there. I simply do not understand how they can be profitable on the long run.

Thats just stupid. Sucks to be u

I can understand where the policy comes from. I can also agree with it to a point. But in my hometown I have stopped playing at Jesters cap because of the owner.

One time I asked to use a copy of their codex for one quick game. (I had left my codex in Rochester, about an hour away, which I HAD bought from that store a year ago) He politely said no so I opened my laptop & used a pdf. At this point he flipped out at me. Spouting how if I wasn't supporting the store I couldn't play. I had supported them two years ago when I lived in the area but now I live an hour away, I can't afford the $20 in gas every time I want something & I need to support rochesters shops too. I haven't been back since.

Honestly I think the policies of "buy here play here" are bad for business in the long run. I wouldn't be opposed to a flat fee as long as it was reasonable & the table quality good.

As a side note apparently the owner has realized the error of his old practices (Now that Niagara hobby sells warhammer & at 20-25% off MSRP) but I still refuse to go there, I'd rather drive the extra 10 minutes to go somewhere I feel appreciated, even If I only order 2-3 things a year.

I guess a lot of gaming shops don't realise how important it is to have customers in the shop, even if they don't buy much. I know I wouldn't have gone into my first GW if I hadn't seen people playing, modeling, ect...

I buy a lot of my models online, but when I go into a shop I occasionally buy things, this isn't usually a planned purchase but after I talk with other gamers I get the urge to buy something. I wouldn't be in the shop to spend the money if I wasn't able to talk and play.

A lot of people i know don't have anywhere else to play other than stores, if the store starts putting people off playing there they will just stop buying anything.

I personaly think the best idea would be a minimal charge just to get enough to cover the upkeep of the facilities. Make it clear your not trying to make money and that it will go towards making it a nicer place to play and people will be a lot more accepting. It isn't that expensive anyway, my gaming club only costs £2 a meeting and thats having to hire a hall as well as maintain terrain, a shop shouldn't be trying to make money from charging for tables.

I get it. Do I think it'll work? Nope. But it's his right. I think, from reading what is above anyway, it has more to do with that local scene that was mentioned and spends money in his store having issues getting playing space/time for people he sees never make a purchase. And obviously he's had some problems with people abusing his tables and scenery. If he has a large enough customer base already they'll probably pay to get exclusive rights to gaming space that has been pushing them out.

But he probably shouldn't make rules he can't enforce such as the no online armies....Oh well.

One store near has a monthly membership program. The membership program, however, is more like a premium fee. You get access to things like a free board game rental every month, discounts and special sales, and unlimited use of the pool tables and RPG room they normally charge an hourly fee for. Customers are still allowed to come into the store and game without being members.

On another note, though I've bought my armies online for the most part, if I go into the store and paint for a few hours, even though they have things set up at the paint stations to use, I will buy the colors I need if it is not already something I have in my kit rather than using theirs because I feel that I want to make sure their space is still available for me to use in the future when I have more time to play.

What an ass. Seriously, as a student who lives somewhere new every 4 months this issue becomes a big problem in some cases. I feel bad showing up at a local store with 2000pts painted and just playing but I'm not about to start a new army or buy something I don't need just to make myself a "customer". Now that there are a ton of places to buy stuff online for less, LGS's really only have one draw: The playing space. Without that they are just more expensive and less convenient. Seems like someone is getting too GW in their diet.

The FLGS that I play at is..well, friendly. I buy my models used or open box on e-bay and buy all my modeling related materials from the FLGS (paint, glue, bases, etc.) I figure the $10-$20 per visit should be plenty of compensation for my taking up of the owner's space for the 3 hours I'm there. I also drop change or $1 for use of AB and the store's printer.

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

If it ever became an issue, I'd just play at my house or my friend's house because I hardly ever play against anyone else anyway.

Personally, I think a more viable business strategy would be to charge some sort of membership but then give discounts equal to the amount paid....sort of insurance that a certain amount would be spent in the store each month (ie. a $10 membership/month and $10 off the first purchase each month using a punch card or something).

just2fierce wrote:wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me

thoughts? input?

What is ridiculous is the over the top negative reaction you have, your absurd internet speak says almost all that's necessary to understand your opinion on this matter. People who run stores do it as a job, and probably an investment, expecting it to be free is entitlement minded drivel. Or perhaps you don't deserve to be indignant if we all decided to berate you for not allowing us to come play in your home with your toys for free. Stop being a child.

4M2A wrote:I guess a lot of gaming shops don't realise how important it is to have customers in the shop, even if they don't buy much.... Make it clear your not trying to make money and...

I guess a lot of gamers don't realize if stores don't make money then there wont be anywhere to play. Actually there's no point to having people who don't buy things in a shop (unless they are employees) and of course they are trying to make money, doesn't everyone who runs a store? This quote from the store owner makes the point really well:

just2fierce wrote:Bowling alleys don't let you play free because you bought a ball. Theaters don't let you watch movies free because you bought popcorn...

If you made your own meals and went to a restaurant and sat down to eat them what do you think would happen?

derek wrote:Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

After reading that you sound just like one of the belligerent entitlement minded miscreants this was aimed at! I want to find out who the store owner is so I can mail order some product from him. It's sad so many belligerent nerds have forced him into a decision like this.

I'll also say this, if you're reading this thread and siding with the op you're the kind of gamer who gives us a bad name. Perhaps a hobby you can afford would suit you better?

Maybe if the OPs store owner were more willing to discount, people wouldn't be shopping so much online. Why pay full price for something when you don't have to?

I call bull on this.

My old FLGS ran a 30% off "membership"(I use the term loosely here--because you didn't pay anything for it. It was just if they'd had you in there multiple times or you showed up for events occasionally, you had it automatically) for anything you bought through them, and an extra 10% knocked off anything you preordered through them. They also did something where, when a new army was being released, anyone who bought that army book/codex and models for that army got that extra 10%(usually only for preorders) tacked on to their 30% off.

And people still bought online, despite the store being in a convenient location, the staff being absurdly friendly and the store having plenty of space to actually just sit down and work on your stuff right then and there.

just2fierce wrote:

Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to...

Yes I have heard of that actually, a very common practice, it's called 'cover charge' but only in special gaming stores for adults called 'bars' and a special game called 'pool'. I think you can look these up on Wikipedia.

I've seen this argument many a time, and sometimes wonder about it... but from 2 different perspectives:

I used to run a gaming club - We got charged about £10 per hour to hire the premises we were in, so all members were required to pay £2 for a 2 hour session - theres times we were up, and many times we were down, so it was really required pay for table space, as there was no other source of income to fund the quiet weeks.

Now I know this isnt quite the argument that this thread is on about (a gaming club vs using tables inside a store) but from being involved in the mangement of a store (this is UK specifically... I have a feeling that the price of rent and land is much cheaper in the states, but lets see)

The shop costs £7,000 per year in rent. The gas, electric, rates, insurance etc all add up on top of that... as a guess in the region of an actual cost of £10,000 per year.

Putting gaming tables up takes away from space that you can have saleable items on display - whilst its not a direct limiter on what you can take in, the more things you have on display the more attractive to the average consumer the store becomes.

But heres the real killer... to get the £10,000 per year costs covered, you need to sell £30,000 of actual product when you work out just how much you make on your sales. At that point, you arent even paying yourself a wage, so youre effectively doing it out of the kindness of your heart, and worrying about how you pay your mortgage.

If your store is full to the brim of people playing games, that tends to push away casual browsers who wouldnt want to come into a packed shop... theres a fine line with this in that you need to have the shop looking busy to generate interest in the passing public, but you dont want it so busy that you push those people away too.

Making the money to keep afloat becomes a real concern, especially when most people would gladly come to your store for 2-3 hours, play a game and either leave without buying anything, or occasionally spending £15-£20 on a boxed set every now and again.

Im sure arguments like this could have economics experts debating for weeks...

It sounds as if the owner has a loyal customer base that are suffering as a result of people walking in, using the tables, damaging the tables, and walking out.

If I was running a FLGS and this was happening, I'd be annoyed. Particularly as the message suggests that users aren't treating his terrain with respect.

The owner is running a business. He can do what he likes, provided he doesn't discriminate on race, sex, sexuality, religion etc. I assume he's prepared to lose the casual custom in the name of preserving the regular attenders. Fair enough.

I've known FLGSs that have a back room for gaming, for which they charge a set fee. Maybe a more diplomatic way of implementing this would have been a flat charge, discounted for members.

Similarly, enforce the "in-store armies only" store by providing a higher level membership for people who spend a certain amount a month.

That's what I'd do anyway, make the benefits positive, rather than explicitly punishing those who don't play along. But I'm not a shop owner.

A membership to use terrain and table space sounds fine. The part about buying online is draconian and will probably lose them business, not to mention unenforceable. However, in order to pay for boards, terrain, materials, etc and of course to pay the bills, I'd be totally and completely fine with being charged a membership fee to use such items.

Yeah, if we're talking stores like the one I visited in Olathe Kansas when I was there or my buddies place Game Ogre in Northridge Cali then I'd have no problem pitching in for them to build/maintain awesome terrain and a good atmosphere. The sense of entitlement is a bit much from the OP. While I don't think the way the owner is going about it is the right way it's compeltely understandable from his written statements why he's doing it.

The last time I looked into the cost of retail space it was £3,000 to £6,000 per month, let alone per year.

That was in Richmond, Surrey, where there used to be a GW shop until it closed for lack of profits.

I agree with Vaktathi.

derek wrote: While they may not like it, online shopping plays just as much an important part of the hobby as the local brick and mortar.

Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

Wrong, actually. And provably so.

This, contrary to many beliefs is an incredibly social hobby. The town I currently live in has a GW, and has had for...erm...15ish years. And do you know what? Every single person I know in this town (thats a couple of hundred at least) I know either directly or indirectly via that shop. It is the common denominator. Simple as. NO website can offer that. Not a single one. No, not even Facebook, unless you are a friend gathering cretin obsessed with having a higher number of 'friends' even though you've likely never met 90% of them.

THAT is why Bricks and Mortar stores are the life blood of the Wargames Hobby. It's how you meet new opponents. It's where you brush up or even learn skills. It is very literally the common ground. The internet is a useful wing of the Hobby Community, but if somehow the interwebs went 'poof' and disappeared right now, the Wargames Hobby would continue. If every Brick and Mortar store somehow went 'pooof' right now, the Hobby as a whole is well and truly buggered.

Kilkrazy wrote:The last time I looked into the cost of retail space it was £3,000 to £6,000 per month, let alone per year.

That was in Richmond, Surrey, where there used to be a GW shop until it closed for lack of profits.

I agree with Vaktathi.

Oh yeah... the £7,000 per year is for a small shop off the main street away from any major commercial centres. In the North East where its usually a bit cheaper thankfully though.

And still only made about £12k in sales for the year so yeah... bit of a loss overall.

There was a game store I used to play at that would charge 10$ a month depending on how often you played in order to be able to play. Their gaming room wasen't apart of the store itself and was located around the corner, the fee was mainly to help him pay for the extra room since he rented it. But like I said it depended on how often you went, if you played every week you payed and if you went say once a month or once every few months you didn't have to pay.

As far as the online bit that seems pretty stupid IMHO. The store I played at did have it so you coulden't enter tournaments hosted by the store if you bought GW products from their competitor in town but no one ever did anyway because their selection was crap.

Augustus wrote:

derek wrote:Edit- Wow, after reading that, the store owner sounds like a someone I would never shop from anyway. What a ****.

After reading that you sound just like one of the belligerent entitlement minded miscreants this was aimed at! I want to find out who the store owner is so I can mail order some product from him. It's sad so many belligerent nerds have forced him into a decision like this.

I'll also say this, if you're reading this thread and siding with the op you're the kind of gamer who gives us a bad name. Perhaps a hobby you can afford would suit you better?

I don't think entitlement has anything to do with it other than I am entitled to take my business elsewhere than give my money to some douchey guy that isn't happy making multiple smaller sales and only wants your business for big items. That is his own words.