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Taoofss wrote:If store owners want to mark up their prices by 40 percent of whole sale, then expect players to purchase their items online. Like I said, everyone's got to balance their checkbooks. Its absolutely silly for the OP's FLGS to frown upon or even ban players who have internet armies.

The "markup" you speak of is not a "markup" at all, but rather the MSRP of the item. Just because the wholesale price is less than the MSRP doesn't mean the retailer is going to sell it to you at that price. The MSRP is the price. Now, the reason that online retailers usually have the ability to discount the MSRP more than a brick and mortar store is the smaller overhead burden that the online retailer has.

So you're right, an online retailer has the ability to offer more of a discount over a brick and mortar store, but that "discount" is not related to any kind of "markup". A "markup" would be if the retailer sold for more than the MSRP.

And to go along with the whole markup thing, GW actually controls what kind of discounts you can offer... If you mark down your product too much too often, they stop selling it to you. You then get to go through independent distributors... which means paying more for your product. If everyone bought online then you would not have a local shopto go pick up your hobby supplies let alone play. If you look the store in question it is a partner store, check your White Dwarf, and GW would frown upon a blanket discount and take away the other perks that the store gets. If I sold GW product out of my house, I could offer a huge discount too... Pretty much just being a middle man at that point, not really providing anything to the community.

"Membership has its privileges" or so they say... Sounds like you get to play regardless of whether or not you pay for membership, just not on the extra cool, kick ass tables. I would pay for that.

Happy New Year!

whitedragon wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If store owners want to mark up their prices by 40 percent of whole sale, then expect players to purchase their items online. Like I said, everyone's got to balance their checkbooks. Its absolutely silly for the OP's FLGS to frown upon or even ban players who have internet armies.

The "markup" you speak of is not a "markup" at all, but rather the MSRP of the item. Just because the wholesale price is less than the MSRP doesn't mean the retailer is going to sell it to you at that price. The MSRP is the price. Now, the reason that online retailers usually have the ability to discount the MSRP more than a brick and mortar store is the smaller overhead burden that the online retailer has.

So you're right, an online retailer has the ability to offer more of a discount over a brick and mortar store, but that "discount" is not related to any kind of "markup". A "markup" would be if the retailer sold for more than the MSRP.

Not true, before I moved to the Jersey area, I frequented a brick and mortar store(TW) that would offer 15-25 percent off GW items if you spent a certain amount. The owner was willing to work with his customers. The store charged a little more then online stores but I was willing to pay the extra for not have to deal with shipping. His prices were marked up 15-25 percent of wholesale. It all depends on the individual FLGS and how much they want to make off of you.

And by "markup" I am obviously refering to the amount of money charged over whole sale. And obviously I have no problems for FLGS charging more money then wholesale prices.

Taoofss wrote:A store is only able to charge a membership fee if A. The quality of their store is way above the stores around them or B. they are the only FLGS around. There is no such place around me.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault. Most stores mark up GW product by 40 percent. Online, I can find GW products that are marked up around 15 percent. I did the math, buying my army online saved me close to 200 dollars. Its one thing to support your FLGS, its another to be robbed blind by them. Everyone has to balance a check book.

Example: Online I can get a box of boyz for 17 dollars. At my FLGS, they are sold for 24. I need about 12 boxes of boyz for my army. That right there is 84 dollars alone. Not a small amount.

IF FLGS owners choose to mark up their products less, I would over look the extra tidbid here and there.

That being said, I do purchase modeling supplies at the FLGS. Yes my army is internet bought, however, if you do not want me playing at your store, I will purchase my paints else where.

I'm sure that 3.70 purchast of paint now and then is a real incentive to provide you with a place to play.

Everyone has to balance a check book.

Correct, and Everyone includes the people running those stores gamers want to play at. Balancing the checkbook means paying the rent, and actually taking home a paycheck. When that doesn't happen, the store closes.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault.

The store isn't at fault for your decision to buy online. It's your choice to do so. Your local store has no say in how you make your decision of where to purchase.

At the same time, if you aren't buying from them, don't expect much in return from them either.

I'll add the caveat that spending 500.00 at once is a bit differnet than 22.75 at a time. I would expect that most store owners, myself included, would give a discount on a purchase like that, even if we offer no discounts normally.

mikhaila wrote:

Taoofss wrote:A store is only able to charge a membership fee if A. The quality of their store is way above the stores around them or B. they are the only FLGS around. There is no such place around me.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault. Most stores mark up GW product by 40 percent. Online, I can find GW products that are marked up around 15 percent. I did the math, buying my army online saved me close to 200 dollars. Its one thing to support your FLGS, its another to be robbed blind by them. Everyone has to balance a check book.

Example: Online I can get a box of boyz for 17 dollars. At my FLGS, they are sold for 24. I need about 12 boxes of boyz for my army. That right there is 84 dollars alone. Not a small amount.

IF FLGS owners choose to mark up their products less, I would over look the extra tidbid here and there.

That being said, I do purchase modeling supplies at the FLGS. Yes my army is internet bought, however, if you do not want me playing at your store, I will purchase my paints else where.

I'm sure that 3.70 purchast of paint now and then is a real incentive to provide you with a place to play.

Everyone has to balance a check book.

Correct, and Everyone includes the people running those stores gamers want to play at. Balancing the checkbook means paying the rent, and actually taking home a paycheck. When that doesn't happen, the store closes.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault.

The store isn't at fault for your decision to buy online. It's your choice to do so. Your local store has no say in how you make your decision of where to purchase.

At the same time, if you aren't buying from them, don't expect much in return from them either.

I'll add the caveat that spending 500.00 at once is a bit differnet than 22.75 at a time. I would expect that most store owners, myself included, would give a discount on a purchase like that, even if we offer no discounts normally.

It's not just 3.70 for one can of paint. It was more like 20 bottles of paint, 2 sprays, hobby tools, green stuff, a ton of additional brushes and basing materials. All said close to 150 dollars worth of materials. That was the initial investment alone. I've since purchase more paints and brushes.

If a store has a policy of no internet army, they also lose money from what they would make from paints and other non-model specific 40k materials. It REALLY adds up. So yes, a 3.70 paint should be incentive to provide a gaming area.

Since purchasing my army, I've visited other stores in the area. MOST of them offer some kind of deal on 40k, i.e. buy 20 dollars worth of items get a bottle of paint for free or 4 dollars in store credit. Something along those lines. Had the store I visited offered something like this, there is no doubt in my mind I would have bought my army from them.

Your local store has a huge say in how you make your purchase decision. If they do a "start an army" escalation league type of thing with members who are part of the league receiving 20 percent off 40k items, then guess what, a shopper will most likely buy the majority of his army at that store. When a store offers nothing at all, hey guess what.

Again, this was my specific experience. Your local FLGS may run things different. I was just really turned off by the way this store was unwilling to work with me. Yup they don't really need to provide me anything, I understand. But I don't have to buy my army there either.

MikeMcSomething wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high.

The stores I go to pay for those costs by - and this is going to seem really out there - selling stuff. Turns out the business owner just like, does that, with his business, instead of asking for donations to keep the lights on. Maybe at some point during the process of filing for a corporation, picking out a spot to put his shop in, signing up for the lease, etc, he realized that he wasn't opening a branch of the Salvation Army.

I'm sorry, was there a point hidden behind all that sarcasm? Because if there was then you've hidden it well, really you have.

My experience has been this: As soon as you establish a class system, every customer will find some reason to be smug, dismissive, and/or outraged. If the owner sets up special, members only tables and benefits, this store is probably doomed. It's not that difficult to figure out when a customer is rude, disruptive or destructive. These are the only customers that a store doesn't need, and the owner is perfectly in his rights to ban them. All other business should be happily welcomed, from big buyers to small spenders. You never know when a small spender will turn into a big one, or bring his big spending friends.

If a store treats me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, give them my business, respect their tables and terrain, and bring my friends. If a store doesn't treat me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, and take my business elsewhere.

Krak_kirby wrote:
If a store treats me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, give them my business, respect their tables and terrain, and bring my friends. If a store doesn't treat me with an open and welcoming attitude, I will reply in kind, and take my business elsewhere.

A good point, that applies to most any business and not just gaming stores.

I kept doing my best to smile at people today, even with a hangover.)

I am curious about the store owners' opinions about something beyond the "internet armies."

Today I played a game in my local store against a new guy I hadn't seen in there before. His army consisted mostly of rather horrible plaster recasts of the big models like raiders, dreads and defilers. His basic infantry were actual models, but his terminators were plaster too.

What do you do as a store owner with a guy like that? Do you try to turn him into a customer? Ban him on the spot?

Avatar 720 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high.

The stores I go to pay for those costs by - and this is going to seem really out there - selling stuff. Turns out the business owner just like, does that, with his business, instead of asking for donations to keep the lights on. Maybe at some point during the process of filing for a corporation, picking out a spot to put his shop in, signing up for the lease, etc, he realized that he wasn't opening a branch of the Salvation Army.

I'm sorry, was there a point hidden behind all that sarcasm? Because if there was then you've hidden it well, really you have.

Seemed pretty obvious.

Treating your store like a soup kitchen that needs your donations to stay afloat is just obscuring the fact that it is a business. If sales don't ''pay for the electricity, bills, etc" then there is a problem, and puffing up your feathers and pretending that you're awesome for donating cash to a failing business isn't going to make that problem go away.

This is probably why my painfully obvious point eluded you - when your store owner has twisted you around to the point where you feel like a selfless hero for paying his bills without getting any merchandise for it, it probably makes it really difficult to understand that there are businesses out there that can actually *gasp* pay their own bills.

My soon-to-be-former LGS (The Outpost) charged for membership (and per game as well). It was a military disposals store that sold gaming stuff.

They actually had a large core of players who regularly turned up to play (large games room upstairs with lots of tables and terrain).

They are terminating the gaming sales from this month and will no longer be allowing the use of the upstairs room for the purpose as they are returning to being a solely Military disposals store.

This leaves the 30-odd (some very odd) players with the option of playing in each others' garages/games rooms or nothing.

just2fierce wrote:
Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

wtf??? is this ridiculous or what?????really??? I honestly can't believe I saw this and it is a store only 1.5 hours away from me


thoughts? input?

sky fox games in oshawa did that before, it failed as most of there players went to toronto.

use of terrian i can understand. but if you buy an army online?!?! thats just moronic.

just2fierce wrote:
Anyone ever heard of your local gaming store charging memberships in order to use terrain and play at the store? Also, it says that a person who buys their army online is not allowed to use the store's tables and terrain.........

The online army thing is just silly (as many, many others have said before, I'm sure). Unenforceable and just plain mean to people who buy online for cheaper prices - especially if you consider the Aussies who pay something like 30% markup (I may be wrong, I'm pulling that number out of my ass here) on regular prices.

As for the store charging membership, I don't see why it's a big problem, unless it's some exorbitant price. My store has a schedule for what games are playing on what nights, as they have games going on for all kinds of games throughout the week - be it Anima Tactics, Flames of War, Warhammer Fantasy Battle, 40k, or various TCGs. For the most part, the gamers just get pulled into the one night a week for their chosen game, though I don't think any games other than the two Warhammers fill up the entire gaming room. There is some free play available, but league players have first rights to tables, since they need them to play for the week.

The store has terrain, but it's completely unavailable to anyone, and is specially reserved for tournament play only, or if you pay to reserve a table for a game. To be fair though, the terrain is very, very nice, and it was only bad experiences that caused the owner to put it away for the most part. The store also has an optional membership that regulars can pay - $30 for the year, which gives a 10% discount off everything in the store save for food, and the option to stay there past closing.

If he is so concerned about losing sales because of online competition why not just lower his prices and keep his customers happy. He won't be making a loss as the people that were buying online will now be paying him instead

Hi all.
I think making the distinction between retail space , and hobby area is a valid one.
My FLGS let us gamers use one of the upstairs store room to game in.
All the gamers chipped in £1 per week, which was used to buy chairs tables terrain etc.
The money was for the gameing space was paid by the gamers , and used by the gamers.

The shop sold stuff.

If the shop owner put up his prices to cover the gaming space expences. How would this be fair to the customers NOT using the gaming space.

Concidering over HALF of GW RRP is to cover the costs of its B&M stores.
It makes buying stuff from GW and NOT using GW stores to play games in, very poor value for money doesnt it?

TTFN

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
I think making the distinction between retail space , and hobby area is a valid one.
My FLGS let us gamers use one of the upstairs store room to game in.
All the gamers chipped in £1 per week, which was used to buy chairs tables terrain etc.
The money was for the gameing space was paid by the gamers , and used by the gamers.

The shop sold stuff.

If the shop owner put up his prices to cover the gaming space expences. How would this be fair to the customers NOT using the gaming space.

Concidering over HALF of GW RRP is to cover the costs of its B&M stores.
It makes buying stuff from GW and NOT using GW stores to play games in, very poor value for money doesnt it?

TTFN

HI,
GW sells through 3 channels.
1) Wholesale to independent stores and distributors at a whole sale discount. The profit from selling GW products goes to paying the stores rent.
2) Through their own stores. The difference between wholesale and retail is the profit derived by selling at full rrp and goes to pay the rent and costs of the store
3) Through mail order, at full RRP. Probably the most profitable for them.

You hate GW Lanrak, every post is some aspect of it, with a different twist or flavor.

TTFN

Hi Mikhaila.
'Hate' is a very negative emotion I dont think I suffer from, in reguards to GW.

I have nothing but good things to say about the good GW games and great people that work(ed) at GW. (SGs and GW staff that belive in gameplay and VFM.)

I think GW plc has a inefficient buisness plan, (due to incompetant corperate managment,) and as such rely on thier customers paying far more than they should, to support it.
And as that reflects on many discussions on these forums , I feel it within my rights to express these concerns.

Warhammer World is now charging money to use the tables for events.

Maybe 'charging for tables' will be rolled out across the GW stores as well?


TTFN

MikeMcSomething wrote:Seemed pretty obvious.

Treating your store like a soup kitchen that needs your donations to stay afloat is just obscuring the fact that it is a business. If sales don't ''pay for the electricity, bills, etc" then there is a problem, and puffing up your feathers and pretending that you're awesome for donating cash to a failing business isn't going to make that problem go away.

This is probably why my painfully obvious point eluded you - when your store owner has twisted you around to the point where you feel like a selfless hero for paying his bills without getting any merchandise for it, it probably makes it really difficult to understand that there are businesses out there that can actually *gasp* pay their own bills.

Tables are one of the services that's one offer. Paying £2.50 (which is what my FLGS charges) for the right to use the tables for the day is no different in my mind to paying for what I eat or drink. There's a few reasons for that:

1) The tables are high quality, far better than I could manage by myself at home. Playing on them is far more enjoyable than on my living room floor with my own tiny terrain collection, squeezed between my sofa and model cabinet. There is plenty of room around them, easy access to snacks and toilet facilities, good terrain (both the owner's own stuff and stuff that he rents from a local club) and a huge variety - there's between 18-24 tables set up in the store at any time, and the boards + terrain on them change often.
2) If I want to play Apocalypse and drag two tables together (necessitating a bit of hassle) or Planetstrike and use 5 bastions, that stuff is accommodated. If I just want to bash through a game of 40k, then the tables are already set up for me - I don't have to drag out a table, then a board, then the terrain box, then tear it all down again at the end of the night. This is significantly more convenient for me.
3) Quality tables cost money to set up, and money to maintain. Why should these costs not be covered by the people using them?

Your post presents a false dichotomy, and also misrepresents the situation. I'm not 'donating' anything - a donation is a voluntary act of charity given for altruistic reasons, in which the giving party receives no tangible benefit for his or her action. I receive a tangible benefit - I am able to use the table space, which for the reasons I have highlighted above is a benefit I like to have. If I don't pay, I don't get to use one of the services the store offers, in the same way that I can't just take a drink out of the fridge and drink it because I bought a pot of paint. The false dichotomy comes with your comparison of sales vs. 'donations' - if we phrase this correctly, as sales vs. services, we can see the falsehood. The store can offer me both products for sale (models, drinks and snacks, wargaming paraphernalia) and services (use of the table space). Both are valid things to charge the customer for.

The issue here seems to be one of entitlement. A lot of posters (mostly Americans, I would guess because the FLGS system is much more common over there) seem to have the impression that the shop should bend to their desires because they are 'customers' and that paying for something in the shop entitles one to use everything in the shop to one's heart's content. This seems like a frighteningly immature attitude to a business - the owner needs to make money, and one of the options available to him or her is charging for use of the tables. Having an extra revenue stream beyond just selling stuff (which many posters seem to feel includes 'if I buy a few pots of paint totalling £25 every few months, I should be able to use the tables all day every day because I'm a 'customer') is not a bad thing and is not a request for charity. This especially applies when the charge is to use one of the aspects of the business which has both a high set-up cost, and then continual maintenance costs resulting from its use.

Quickly addressing the completely ridiculous point about '40% mark-up', the difference between the wholesale price and the customer's price is the money that the owner makes, which pays for his shop to stay open and his lights to stay on. If his costs are lower, he can afford a better discount. If they're higher, he necessarily charges closer to the RRP in order to cover the higher costs. Internet retailers in general have lower costs because they don't run shops - there's lower overheads so they can afford to make less money per sale. Tying this in to the discussion on table charges, I'm sure you like having a 10% discount in the store, or even higher depending on the owner; would you rather spend more per item you buy, even if you don't use the table space, or pay less but pay for the table when you do choose to use it?

chromedog wrote:My soon-to-be-former LGS (The Outpost) charged for membership (and per game as well). It was a military disposals store that sold gaming stuff.

They actually had a large core of players who regularly turned up to play (large games room upstairs with lots of tables and terrain).

They are terminating the gaming sales from this month and will no longer be allowing the use of the upstairs room for the purpose as they are returning to being a solely Military disposals store.

This leaves the 30-odd (some very odd) players with the option of playing in each others' garages/games rooms or nothing.

Rent a church or school hall on an evening?

If some of you can take charge to make a gaming night and run a club from somewhere you can still make a go of a community someplace.

Personally, like many of you, I do most of my purchasing on-line, but if I had an FLGS, I'd support them somewhat. I don't mind paying full retail for Rules & Codices and I might buy a squad or two at said FLGS as part of the compact that'd give me a place to play.For example, in my old FLGS in England, whilst I bought most of my Salamanders army on-line, I did but a Vindicator, a Land Speeder & a Terminator box from the store.

More than a few posters in here (corrode's post is the most recent example) keep trying to paint themselves as somehow more mature, intelligent, charitable, etc. than the average gamer by virtue of being more willing to hand out cash for nothing.

Here's the thing guys, being willing to pay for something you can get for free doesn't somehow make you smarter/more mature/more charitable/whatever, it just makes you easier to price discriminate.

And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

MikeMcSomething wrote:More than a few posters in here (corrode's post is the most recent example) keep trying to paint themselves as somehow more mature, intelligent, charitable, etc. than the average gamer by virtue of being more willing to hand out cash for nothing.

Here's the thing guys, being willing to pay for something you can get for free doesn't somehow make you smarter/more mature/more charitable/whatever, it just makes you easier to price discriminate.

And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

I wasn't aware that quality tables, terrain and space to use those things (bear in mind that I live in a tiny flat and a 6'x4' board literally takes up so much of my front room that attempting to play with it becomes incredibly awkward) was free. Could you direct me to the charity that's handing those things out so that I can get them?

Corrode wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:More than a few posters in here (corrode's post is the most recent example) keep trying to paint themselves as somehow more mature, intelligent, charitable, etc. than the average gamer by virtue of being more willing to hand out cash for nothing.

Here's the thing guys, being willing to pay for something you can get for free doesn't somehow make you smarter/more mature/more charitable/whatever, it just makes you easier to price discriminate.

And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

I wasn't aware that quality tables, terrain and space to use those things (bear in mind that I live in a tiny flat and a 6'x4' board literally takes up so much of my front room that attempting to play with it becomes incredibly awkward) was free. Could you direct me to the charity that's handing those things out so that I can get them?

Try any FLGS I've ever been to. I've frequented a lot of them over the years and have never once had to pay for table use or a membership to use their space. We're far from being entitled, it's just that paying to use the gaming areas is more often the exception, not the norm you see it as, at least on this side of the pond.

The only place I can think of that I could game for free in the local area is the various Games Workshop stores, where the table space is much smaller, much lower quality, and the staff are apt to try and squeeze you onto a 4'x4' board since that way another game can still fit on the board (which in small shops is often an 8'x'4' realm of battle). The other options are either clubs or shops, which around here both charge £2.50 for the use of their stuff. It's also worth considering that the terrain and boards available at the shop in particular is head and shoulders above that available elsewhere, which is worth paying for IMO.

*shrugs* At least 3 of the stores I've frequented had Games Day worthy terrain thanks to engineers or Graphics Designers. One store had much of the terrain done by a certain Ed Bourelle, current Project Manager for Privateer Press, back when he was a Press Ganger and running Skeleton Key Games.

The others were none to shabby, either.

The shop Corrode refers to is Cut and Thrust Wargaming.

It was also my local gaming store until last month when I moved to the US.

The fee is £2.50 per person playing. You get an 8x4 table with excellent terrain, washroom facilities, seating and a clean and hospitable environment for that fee.

The shop has 2 floors of dedicated gaming space with 20 something tables and is entirely for tabletop wargaming.

It also has a snack bar serving hot beverages, dedicated painting tables that are free to use with angled daylight lighting and you are surrounded by mature(ish) fellow gamers and hobbyists.

It is not the crowded, small, poorly heated, brat infested free crèche that the Broadmead GW had become.

£2.50 for as long as I like in that environment to game as I see fit?

That's a bloody bargain. I was entirely happy to pay that fee.

Just my .02 on this topic...

Charging players to play on your tables and terrain at a game store isn't unheard of, however there are ways to do it so that give your customers more for their money and they don't feel like they have to pay for "Memberships".

For starters if you have a good-sized game store with table and terrain space, then to take advantage of it you should be running leagues, campaigns, and demos on it. If you have a store league or campaign, then there's nothing wrong with charging a few bucks to the players to play in it. For example: Let's say that I advertise up in the store that on Wednesday nights I'm going to run a 40k league for 6 weeks and will take up to 24 players. I then post a sign-up sheet in the store for players and charge them $10 each to play in it. Now, at the end of the league you award prize support (aprox $60-$100 worth) and the remainder of the money collected goes to the store to maintain the tables, terrain, ect. Not to mention that out of the 24 players playing in the league, many of them are going to shop while they are at the store. The more customers you have in your store and the more games you have going, the more product sells.

A good store owner will book events like that constantly and keep rotating games on different nights of the week.... On rare days that there isn't an event going, then you allow open gaming on the tables to play.

Also, a smart game store owner with tables and terrain will ALWAYS want people playing games on his tables. It is free advertisment and an easier time to sell the product if a customer walks into a store asking about a game if you already have players playing it.

Platuan4th wrote:

Corrode wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:And if you can't get good tables for free, then you are in a situation where you have to pay because your market sucks and you're unwilling to realize it.

I wasn't aware that quality tables, terrain and space to use those things (bear in mind that I live in a tiny flat and a 6'x4' board literally takes up so much of my front room that attempting to play with it becomes incredibly awkward) was free. Could you direct me to the charity that's handing those things out so that I can get them?

Try any FLGS I've ever been to. I've frequented a lot of them over the years and have never once had to pay for table use or a membership to use their space. We're far from being entitled, it's just that paying to use the gaming areas is more often the exception, not the norm you see it as, at least on this side of the pond.

"Far from being entitled", you say?

Just because it's common in the US doesn't mean it isn't a sense of entitlement you're displaying. The stores which give us nice tables and a place to play without charging for them ARE giving us a valuable service for free. Acting as if these services are obligatory, like we are entitled to them for free, or like there's no good reason for any store to charge for them is silly. We're not entitled to get those things for free any more than we're entitled to have someone else shovel our driveways free of snow for no charge.

Many stores do provide these services for free as loss-leaders, as a way of supporting an active group of players in the area of their store, encouraging people to buy stuff. But this is a business choice; not a service they are obligated to provide. Charging for the space and the tables is an equally valid choice. Which is the better business decision depends on the area & costs of space, as well as the culture of the players in the area and their receptiveness to the idea.

I'm fortunate enough to play at a store which has a large gaming space and 8+ tables available pretty much all the time for free use. They also have a computer with Army Builder available for general use. But I'm aware that it costs the store money to provide all that stuff, and if I want them to stay around and keep providing those services which are valuable to me, it's a smart move for me to put money in the owner's pocket on a regular basis.

Wolflord Patrick wrote:Also, a smart game store owner with tables and terrain will ALWAYS want people playing games on his tables. It is free advertisment and an easier time to sell the product if a customer walks into a store asking about a game if you already have players playing it.

"Always" is a big word. What if those players buy all their models online? Does he want those players in his shop, putting wear and tear on his tables, and likely talking to other players about their practice of saving money by spending online instead of supporting the shop?

Overall I agree that it's usually a very good thing for the shop owner if he's got people actively playing in the shop. Successful shop owners like Mikhaila prefer this model, and don't charge for the use of their tables. But this kind of advertising isn't actually "free"; space and tables and maintenance for those tables cost money.

Mannahnin wrote:
"Far from being entitled", you say?

Just because it's common in the US doesn't mean it isn't a sense of entitlement you're displaying. The stores which give us nice tables and a place to play without charging for them ARE giving us a valuable service for free. Acting as if these services are obligatory, like we are entitled to them for free, or like there's no good reason for any store to charge for them is silly. We're not entitled to get those things for free any more than we're entitled to have someone else shovel our driveways free of snow for no charge.

Sorry, Mannahnin, but at no point did I say that such services were obligatory nor was paying a bad idea or silly. That's reading a bit more into my post than what it states. It was more a response to the previous poster basically implying(from how it reads to me) that it was some sort of fluke or mistake that we got to play for free at a non-GW store because he wasn't or isn't able to. If he didn't mean that with his heavily sarcastic(and slightly caustic) post, I apologize. As well, he seems to be implying that pay-to-play is the only way to get quality terrain to play on. Again, if he doesn't mean that, I apologize.

I'm not against the idea of pay-to-play(I've done it several times with game store computers), just that I've never faced it with tabletops. If I moved to an area with a store like that(with no quality competition offering free play, though either way a store would get that money), I'd happily pay if they asked me to.

I'd rather use that money for more models/toys given the choice, but I'd be willing. It's just that free play has been my experience more than pay-to-play.

Mike McSomething was dismissive and insulting about stores charging. Another poster made a ridiculous argument against the MSRP markup. Corrode gave a detailed explanation of why and how his FLGS charges, why it's worth his time and money, and why it's not charity (as Mike claimed) to pay for a service. Mike somehow took offense to this argument (surprising, given how flippant his own was), and got snarky, and Corrode snarked back a little.

I'm not sure why you felt offended by it. I do think that the argument you put forward- that you're accustomed to being provided this service for free, and therefore he should be able to get it for free too, is a display of you feeling entitled to this free service.