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Odominus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:You're just making use of really bad logic to come to a false conclusion.

I never came to a conclusion. I asked a legitimate question and you called me a troller. Really? I have never heard of this business model.

Well, I'll give you access to enough paints to do it

Hence my question. The bottom line is how much money the store (aka the owner) brings in. If the store is shelling out money for paints...well then the store is giving money to customers. That doesn't take Spock to follow that logic. Hey it may be a great practice and I am sure it is met with a lot of enthusiasm by the recipients of your generosity. My question was: does that generosity carry over into blisters as well? That is all. No need to get snippy.

spock wouldn't follow that because there is no logic; even a ferengi would raise an brow ridge to that theory of business. seriously, how can you compare the use of store-supplied communal paints to condoning shoplifting? when you go to mcdonalds, do they charge you for ketchup? no, generally they don't. does that mean you can just go behind the counter and take home a few big macs for free? of course not.

mikhaila aproach seems the smartest one, I mean tempting me with good tables, my favorite army fully stocked, painting place etc all for free, thats proactive and hard to resist store... As for the OP store I also understand the fee thing... what I cannot understand is the store telling people they are not welcommed if they buy online, thats not working out with people a solution, thats just being pissy about it and showing some unecessary muscle.

I dont understand it because we live in a free society with free trade, I can buy were I want to and dont need a store to try to make me feel bad about my personal shopping decisions and to police my hobby purchases.
Your problem is leeches? for sure you know them in person so why not address the problem directy to them instead of acting like a bully towards everyone?
How about just having one crappy table for the leeches groups?...
Also if everyone pays fees to use the tables whats it to you were they buy their armies?

Its your store, your right to enforce what you want but this to me seems a desesperate solution for a store thats loosing control over things... I hate leeches too they are killing the hobby here but this is not the way IMO to solve the problem. I mean I dont need a store owner telling me I cant play if I buy elsewere... specially if I pay somekind of fee.

I'm curious how mikhaila deals with the leech problem... I bet my winter shoes that he takes the problem directly to the leeches and turns them into good costumers

Neconilis wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
I have to say I am still surprised that US gamers are so centred on stores. I would have thought with your big homes, and lots of church halls, space could easily be found elsewhere.

Are you being serious?

I would imagine he is. The vast majority of gamers in the UK play in small private clubs using cheap or free space that's available (churches, universities, libraries, local government all make space available. Even businesses and private members clubs can make space available sometimes - there's a pub locally that hosts the bloodbowl league and the local Air Force club has a wargames night)

I would not be opposed to paying $10 a month to use a facility set up for gaming.

I'd probably consider paying as much as $15 if I knew that the money was directly going into terrain and tables, or if they offered extras, like perhaps a 'gratis' soda fountain.

Edit: I just saw the pictures. Jesus. The OP just lost all sympathy in my mind. I WISH I could pay to play on tables that looked like that.

From most business owner's perspective (as I understand after having spoken with many of them) the main idea is to draw people into the business. Then you can work on selling to them. If you have no people, there are no sales.

How do you do that? Advertising, giveaways, sweepstakes, good word-of-mouth etc. I would guess that having players in the place, using well-painted armies (hence the free use of paint at Mikhaila's store) draws new players to say "hey, that looks awesome! What is it?" There's the opening for a sale and a new customer to make them into a client.

I can see chrispryor's reason if he's got folks just hanging out abusing the tables and pushing away paying customers. Any business would do that. Hell, I saw a Subways Sandwich shop owner kick out a bunch of unruly kids who each bought only a soda and were hanging out because they were using up table space for regular, meal purchasing customers. The owner has the right to do that because it is a business.

I would love to have an FLGS instead of an LGS like I do in my area. I wish I lived where Mikhaila's store was as I'd definitely hang out and paint my armies there! If I'm there and I need a new brush, or more Guardsmen to convert, guess where I'm buying it from? Him, not the interwebz.

Just one question for Mikhaila... how do you deal with the parasites?

I wish I had the time to play at stores more often. Seems the older I get the less time I have :(

But, unless I was doing some kind of organized event that the organizer/store spent a lot of time and effort on to make it lots of fun, I would never pay a fee to play at the store or anywhere.

Mike's method really is the best. Have a great store with great tables and scenery, invite people in to play for free and run leagues and stuff, in most cases those people won't leave without buying something.

I know a lot of folks like to buy cheaper online but me personally, I'd rather get my toys from a store that will always have what I want when I want it and a place that will support the local gamer community with fun events even though I rarely get a chance play there.

Maxstreel wrote:
I can see chrispryor's reason if he's got folks just hanging out abusing the tables and pushing away paying customers. Any business would do that. Hell, I saw a Subways Sandwich shop owner kick out a bunch of unruly kids who each bought only a soda and were hanging out because they were using up table space for regular, meal purchasing customers. The owner has the right to do that because it is a business.

It's not even just that. I mean, if you go golfing, you spend a ton of money on the gear, the funny clothes, and a good pair of shoes, and then and only then, you go to pay to play at the course. The course in turn takes the money and puts it back into maintenance and upkeep. How long do you think those well manicured greens would last should people stop paying for them?

God, kids these days...

This discussion is interesting to say the least...It seems to me that alot of people are OMFG!!! pay to play no way. Which is understandable especially if they have a FLGS or something similar to already play at for free. I have been following the thread for a couple days now without posting because Im not really sure I had made up my mind on it. After thinking on it Id come to the following observations that lead to my decisions.

Culture: The culture of the gaming groups to to vary from one area to the next, sometimes quite significantly. This can range from different regions, coutries, or even stores in the same area. This completely skews the view and opinions of each group. For example alot of people in the UK seem to be more inclined to play at clubs, churches, pubs, community centers, etc. Some of the posters indicate that this is free or low cost so this makes perfect sense. In the US there are not many places like this and for years stores have been the focal point for gaming groups. The stores typically had area set aside for this. This was fairly standard from one city to the next. The quality of the gaming area varied significantly from one store to the next. This worked for the longest time (the last 25 years or so I have been in the hobby at least). Prior to the internet this meant that almost all gamers bought there stuff at a local store or mail ordered some items (usually something the store did not have or could not get). This worked for all parties invoved as everyone benefited. Besides that for the longest time gaming was not considered a mainstream hobby so naturally us nerds tended to group together.

The Internet: Since the internet many factors have changed for the FLGS or LGS. Early on competiton was limited to the local stores for the most part. That is not the case now nor will it probably be ever again. Online dealers (god bless thier money grubbing capitolists hearts) can offer steep discounts. This is achievable only because of minimal overhead and operating costs. As a consumer this is fantastic. As a brick and mortar storefront this is hard to compete with. I dont know how many times I heard at the local store look what I got at Warstore for $$$ when he first started (Neals still great but his deals arent as big nowadys as they used to be and now I only use him when he has something I cant get locally). The same could be said of Ebay (again not as good as it used to be but still deals to be had if you a patient). The good store owners have learned to deal with this in all sorts of common sense and imaginative ways and have accepted the fact that this is just the way it is. Those that didnt or wouldnt are now out of business. One store owner even left a nasty sign on his door when he closed blaming an internet shop by name. It dint help that his shop was pathetic, understocked, overpriced, and he had the personality of a troll.

Economics: Costs have risen across the board for everyone. This includes rent and utilities. That gaming area is just getting more and more expensive all the time. Where as once it weas a no brainer now it is actually a serious decision to devote a significant area to no immediate value gained. Many shops operating margins are slim to say the least. A store owner that knows what he is doing understands this. Thats why stores operated as a business by a business man tend to perform alittle better than that gamer who opened his shop because he thought it would be cool to be a gamestore owner . Note this is not always the case and some gamers are excellent businessmen and their stores will almost always be the more successful shops. in all cases the store must be operated as a business or it will fail. One of the best qoutes I ever heard in my management classes was "if all of your customers are completely happy...then you are doomed to fail". There is some truth in that. The business must manage customer satisfaction with profit.

Parasites, leeches, trolls, and the unwashed: Sometimes it seems like these kind of people flock to gamestores like sheep. The groups of players down at the store has a direct influence on the business as a whole. If the store has a group of regulars that fall into this category then it is losing money. One of the FLGS had this for awhile and ity lasted nearly two years. For the most part a large number of us regulars stopped gaming down there completely as we did not want to deal with these . All were unemployed for the most part, spent all day at the store playing, occupied almost all the space, rarely spent money, and were generally annoying as a ll hell. This in some cases cost the store a fair amount of revenue as a few people stopped buying there completely. Bottom line is that if you have people like this then you need to curb or give them the boot immediately. This does not mean that all people that dont spend much are leeches. Quite a few times there have been a few of them that are the type of people who are fun to play with and generate quite a bit of enthusiasm and interest. Those kind of players are keepers. Good shop owners realize this and frequently hook them up and do what they can to keep them in the hobby.

Upkeep: Any decent gaming area requires upkeep. Unless its a few tables with some boxes and a pair of ratty blankets then its going to cost time and money. Alot of our fellow gamers treat the terrain like ass and dont care because... tada its not theirs . I dont understand this logic but hey maybe someone will fill me in. So who should eat the cost of replacing and repairing all the damage done in the gaming area. The store owner can only eat it at cost for so long. Also the few people who use thier own time to do it for free quickly burn out or get tired of picking up after the .

The OP pretty much worded the original post in his favor skewing many of the opinions of the follow on posters. Since reading Chris and some of the local gamers who use the store in question I would say he absolutely right in his decision. Some of the people in this thread seem to completely disregard their replies. A few even have a strange sense of entitlement... buying a soda or pot of paint once in a blue moon does not make you a valued customer. Buying all of your armies, models, paints, etc. online and gaming down at the store does not make you a valued customer. Does this mean you buy everything at the store, no it dosent. Even the store owner said as much earlier in the thread but quite a few replies seem to overlook that.

Taking all that into account I can see where it would be plausible to charge for gaming space (especially looking at the pics of the store that started this whole thread). If the store has a decent sized, well stocked, and equipped gaming area then I see no problem with this concept. Now whether or not this has any value added is entirely up to the store owner. If the time is invested to make the gaming area worth it then Im fairly sure it will work. If its justs a couple empty tables with some shabby hand me down terrain pieces made from cardboard scraps... well it will probably fail.

If I showed up from out of town with my army looking for a casual pick-up game at Chris' store, I wouldn't have a problem paying a nominal fee (say$5-8 bucks) to use the space for the afternoon.

If I showed up from out of town looking for a pickup game at Chris' store with my army, offered to pay a nominal fee for $5-8, and was told to bugger off because I didn't buy my army at his store, I'd have a huge problem with that.

But if I was Chris, and i had a local customer who contributed to the community/store by helping to organize tournaments, helping to clean up, building terrain and bringing it in for community use, but didn't have a lot of money to spend, I'd probably consider waiving that fee or any membership for that person.

hemingway wrote:If I showed up from out of town with my army looking for a casual pick-up game at Chris' store, I wouldn't have a problem paying a nominal fee (say$5-8 bucks) to use the space for the afternoon.

A chance gamer stopping by to check out the store and play a pick up game? I doubt Chris would take a dime from you to play. Actually I know he would say no way and let you check the store out for yourself.

hemingway wrote:If I showed up from out of town looking for a pickup game at Chris' store with my army, offered to pay a nominal fee for $5-8, and was told to bugger off because I didn't buy my army at his store, I'd have a huge problem with that.

We all would and he would never do that. Again, he might tell you to enjoy yourself but the pay to play wouldn't be on the table for you. He's never told any random player, to my knowledge, to bugger off for stopping by to play...

hemingway wrote:But if I was Chris, and i had a local customer who contributed to the community/store by helping to organize tournaments, helping to clean up, building terrain and bringing it in for community use, but didn't have a lot of money to spend, I'd probably consider waiving that fee or any membership for that person.

Again, don't forget this is an option to pay to play on the really expensive cool tables. Open space will still be there.

I help out with setting up or putting away terrain for tourneys, taking out the trash, helping new players with the rules. I get nothing for it; no discounts, no deals, no special treatment(other than maybe a little gratitude). I do it because Chris provides an awesome, well stocked, FREE envoriment to roll dice in and I am grateful for it.

DoonOnYou72: You are spot on mate. Thanks for reading all posts, not just the ones you can throw gas on. This area is lucky to have chris's store. I've been to the other ones, and I've experienced places without FLGS all together and I know what the difference is.

MM

A store shouldn't be so heavy-handed. That's not how you develop a gaming community. At a good store like the one I go to, the players donate the terrain we use.

We donate terrain and the store provides as well.

For the most part so do we as well. However over the years the donations have slowed/ stopped for a few reasons. The first is that it frequently seems to be that same peeps who donate, every now and then we get a new player who does as well. Some of the players who do use it are arseclowns who cant be bothered to take care of it and thrash it. I no longer have any interest in donating new pieces or fixing old ones. I will still bring down my nice terrain for special events (wheter Im a part of it or not) on the understanding that you break it you bought it. Lets face it and Im sure most of you would agree that it gets old being one of the few people who care enough to donate or fix it while others just trash it and dont care.

Owain wrote:A store shouldn't be so heavy-handed. That's not how you develop a gaming community. At a good store like the one I go to, the players donate the terrain we use.

Some groups of gamers will make and donate scenery. Others won't, or don't, or don't know how. A store can't always wait around for a group of gamers to donate what the store neeeds. The scenery at this store looks great, very nice tables that would be a great treat to play on. I can understand where he's coming from, even though I personally don't like to charge people to play.

He runs his store different than i would. Good for him. If you look at a lot of the good gaming stores there's a consistant theme: An owner that cares about his gamers and the community and works hard to build both his store and the community. We aren't going to be cookie cutter operations. How he runs his store is just as valid as I run mine, and it looks like he's doing a good job of it.

He's a bit blunt in his message. So what? He's also not aiming it at anyone but a few of his locals that abuse his hospitality. If you're offended by it, then you're choosing to apply his words to yourself, but he's not talking to you. Unless you happen to be someone local to the store, never buy anything, but want to use the scenery and tables anyway.

I really applaud someone that is finding a way to bring that level of scenery into his store for his gamers to play on.

Dealing with people that don't support the store, but take advantage of what it offers, is always tricky. I tend to deal with it on a case by case basis. This has the advantage of not making rules for everyone, but has the downside of having to deal one on one with someone who might be quite difficult to talk to. Every stores going to be a bit different, the problem children will create different problems, and require different solutions.

Howdy folks,

I'm another one of the gamers from the store in question. Like the rest of the locals, I'm here to support Chris and how he's choosing to run the store.

I'm going to attempt to avoid any unnecessary redundancy in arguing a point that's already been well-made. Instead, I'm going to just add in an additional perspective with what anecdotal evidence I can.


I'm there to play WoW TCG on Fridays and occasionally make it to the shop on other days of the week as well. Now before you go thinking that I have no business talking about membership fees, terrain, etc. know this- I've played 40K since Rogue Trader, Fantasy since 4th edition, Warmachine, Battletech, and various other tabletop games over the years and I do still actively collect, paint, and play. As many of you will know, there are points in time where you just get burnt out and are wanting to do something different for a while. Right now, I'm in the "do something different" phase, and so I'm playing cardboard crack.


The tables.
I'm at the shop pretty much every Friday. When I walk in, there's a better than average chance that every single one of the tables is occupied. Some are covered with terrain with people actively playing on them, some are stacked with people's miniature cases, rulebooks, and "dead" and "reserve" models. There's usually one centrally-located table that has a few guys building/painting figs.
You'll see a pair of WoW TCG players sitting at the far end of one table with just enough space to play a game with their elbows tucked in while the rest of the surface is covered in terrain that may or may not have a game of Warmachine or 40K going on. As the weekend gamers roll in, more people are asked to "move their stuff" to make room for more people to game. The miniature cases get placed under tables or in corners and under shelves of product. The guys building/painting minis have to take a moment to condense the amount of table space they're using so more people can fit at the "not playing, but doing stuff" table.
Space is at a premium, without being so tight that it's claustrophobic. It's just the right amount of clutter that promotes interaction between the people in the store. You can't help but get to know the names, faces, and armies/interests of the people around you.


Membership and "No Internet Armies Allowed"
In such a setting where table space is at a premium, there is a very valid reason for keeping a select number of tables available to a "Members Only" subscription. For those who don't have firsthand knowledge of the store and the individual challenges that we face in this area, the "no online-purchased armies" thing could seem understandably harsh. I see your point of view, but I have also seen the actual situation that brought about this decision. It started out as an annoyance, became a problem, and unless it was checked...would have become an epidemic.

As an example, here's something that I witnessed:
An employee was introducing a potential player to 40K. He spent the better part of an hour going into detail about the broad-stroke strategies and tactics for each individual army, gave tips on painting and modeling, suggested how to get the most bang for your buck while still coming out with a playable army, and offered to drop whatever he was doing to run the guy through a demo game whenever he had the time.
After all of this time spent investing in a new player/customer with an introduction to our hobby (rather than a hard sell), some creep walks over and has the gall to "poach" the customer from the store by mentioning that the newbie could pick up the same suggested models online and save X-amount of money.

This wasn't a singular occurrence that spawned Chris' "If you buy online, you aren't welcome here" policy. This sort of thing happened repeatedly over the course of time. Not just "poaching," but casual remarks from people saying "I'm hyped about the new Army that's coming out...I already put in an order for it online." There was also a rash of Used Car Salesmanship...selling a "slightly used" (Read: poorly assembled and shoddily painted) army to a new player for a fraction of the retail cost. Sometimes, this was a direct poaching of what would have been an in-store sale, other times it was from one veteran gamer to another.

When I get the tabletop gaming itch again, I want to be able to walk into the store and play a game. What Chris is trying to avoid is for his supporters to get choked out of gaming space by the Internet Armies and Leeches occupying the available tables.

I don't want to paint a picture that blows this problem out of proportion though...there are PLENTY of supporters at the shop who have space to game. The number of Internet Armies and Leeches is small. The thing is, even one of these people taking up a table puts a major ding in the availability of gaming space. If that "Freeloader" happens to be playing on one of the high-quality Games Day tables, that's a pretty big kick to the jewels...hence the need for some way of ensuring that those that support the store have priority over those that don't.

It's not like we're vying for table space that has books placed under a mat for "hills" and oddly-shaped bits of green construction paper for "trees"...the terrain room is practically overflowing with awesome bits and pieces of terrain of all flavors. This is what gets used for Open Gaming. Taking a step up from already awesome terrain to play on a Games Day quality table that cost hundreds (or thousands) of dollars to purchase makes any membership fee that might be attached to it all the more worthwhile. Maybe it's a "Had to be there" thing, but after reading through this thread, it would seem that anyone who saw the photos posted earlier has agreed that they'd be more than happy to pay a nominal fee in order to play on the table. That fee, in turn, goes towards buying even more high quality gaming tables.




On Chris (the store owner)
If you judge a person by their "internet voice" then you're going to get a very different idea of Chris' character than you would if you spoke to him in person. There's a reason why it's a commonly-held belief that 93% of communication is non-verbal (at least, according to a UCLA study) and another great reason why internet anonymity can bring out the worst in people. Chris has an admittedly brusque manner when it comes to his typed messages. If you know him personally though, it takes the sting out of the words because you know without a doubt that he'd much rather talk to you about it in person for an hour rather than "waste" 5 minutes talking about it in a text-only format.

If you're from out of town (as I was when I first visited the shop) you will NOT experience a "Buy something or GTFO" sort of atmosphere. In fact, I highly doubt that you'd be required to pay any sort of fee to play on one of the Games Day tables. Either Chris would waive the fee, or your opponent might cover the cost out of their pocket just to ensure you had a good time. We're that type of crowd.



Final Thought
Pass judgment on the "Stores charging membership fees" topic if you must, but I think you'll find that (at least according to the actual REGULARS at the store) the membership fee being enacted at this particular shop is not only warranted, but well-worth it and fully-endorsed by the gamers that support the store.

Your mileage may vary...but mine will stay at a 20-minute drive to and from this great store at least once a week.

More power to the owner for doing whatever he wants with the space he uses his money (and probably his blood pressure and sleepless nights) to pay for.

Maybe in Phoenix we're really lucky, there's 4-5 FLGS within a 30-minute drive on the freeways, and each one of them has at bare minimum 6+ 8'x4' tables. When I need to buy something, I typically buy it at the store that I am spending time in that day. If I don't need to buy anything for my army then yeah I'm getting soda and chips, sorry I didn't need my 6th drop pod today bro, if that isn't enough we just have the ability to drive anywhere else. Many of the stores here have free discount cards that come in one form or another (one of them generates bonus store credit points every time you buy something, one of them gives you 20% off your next purchase for every 150$ or so you spend)

We have options, and the terrain is (generally) outstanding at most of the locations, so if someone started charging 5$ or whatever to play every month they would have to have something alot cooler than that table with the bridge on it to make us stay. What kind of competition is out there in TN? If owning a gaming shop in Nashville is so awesome that you have to literally turn away people that are merely buying Funyuns and Pepsi maybe someone should open another FLGS out there. Sounds like the competition would do some good for everyone.

MikeMcSomething wrote:More power to the owner for doing whatever he wants with the space he uses his money (and probably his blood pressure and sleepless nights) to pay for.

Maybe in Phoenix we're really lucky, there's 4-5 FLGS within a 30-minute drive on the freeways, and each one of them has at bare minimum 6+ 8'x4' tables. When I need to buy something, I typically buy it at the store that I am spending time in that day. If I don't need to buy anything for my army then yeah I'm getting soda and chips, sorry I didn't need my 6th drop pod today bro, if that isn't enough we just have the ability to drive anywhere else. Many of the stores here have free discount cards that come in one form or another (one of them generates bonus store credit points every time you buy something, one of them gives you 20% off your next purchase for every 150$ or so you spend)

We have options, and the terrain is (generally) outstanding at most of the locations, so if someone started charging 5$ or whatever to play every month they would have to have something alot cooler than that table with the bridge on it to make us stay. What kind of competition is out there in TN? If owning a gaming shop in Nashville is so awesome that you have to literally turn away people that are merely buying Funyuns and Pepsi maybe someone should open another FLGS out there. Sounds like the competition would do some good for everyone.

That's the thing...there ARE other shops. Not 4 or 5 (more like 1 or 2) that are within reasonable driving distance for me. I visited both of them...once. I'll put it as nicely as I can: Not my kind of crowd. From a business perspective, there IS competition. From my personal perspective, none of the other shops can possibly compete with the atmosphere, variety of stock, cleanliness, and high-quality character of the playerbase as this store.

Mike, you ARE lucky over there in Phoenix. Choice is a good thing, and as I stated, we do have choices. I do, however, consider myself lucky too. Your nightmarish description of someone charging $5 a month to play and feeling obligated to buy a 6th drop pod is not a place I'd want to frequent either.

I think you seem to have mis-translated what the store's membership program and definition of "support your store" is all about.
Yeah, it's easy to see a dollar sign mixed in with a bunch of words and decide that if it's somehow related to gaming, it's a bad thing that shouldn't be tolerated. I mean, really...the NERVE of some people wanting to charge you extra for perks.

--WARNING Sarcasm to illustrate a point is incoming!--
Paying MONEY to actively play a hobby? Ridiculous! I already spent hundreds of dollars just to play...my...hobby. Oh...woops. I should just start playing golf. That's a hobby. With a high-dollar initial cost for equipment, a cost for goofy plaid pants, shoes, green fees every time I play, extra for golf cart rental, etc. I could upgrade my membership and have access to the player's clubhouse, too. Hmm...maybe I should just stick to tabletop gaming after all.
--End of Sarcasm--

At my store (I say mine, because I consider it my "home store") you could walk in any day of the week and play for free. Membership simply gives you access to some of the more outstanding tables and a priority of being able to play on those tables over a non-membership player.

At a different store, many years ago, in a different town, I frequented a place that had custom-built lockers. These lockers were rented out to gamers who were interested in being able to store their stuff there at the shop. The store owner charged rent for these lockers. Not only to recoup his initial investment in making them, but also to buy more in the future. If you saw a bunch of lockers in a hobby store, you'd assume that they were for rent, not "free for anyone to use," right? If anyone did think "free for me," they should probably re-evaluate their sense of self-entitlement. It's waaaay off.

I honestly don't see the current situation any differently. You want access to nice things that are above and beyond what a typical store is commonly expected to provide, you're going to have to expect it to come with a price tag. These high-quality "Members Only" tables serve the same function as a locker rental system, just with different physical dimensions.
Both take up a certain amount of floor space. Both of them offer a customer the ability to use said space at a nominal monthly fee. Both are a "nice to have" perk, not a "you must do this" part of the hobby. Membership simply has its privileges.

guys, seriously, lets leave the funyons out of this. i don't want that awesome taste's reputation sullied in a minor internet argument. pepsi on the other hand, meh.

A store is only able to charge a membership fee if A. The quality of their store is way above the stores around them or B. they are the only FLGS around. There is no such place around me.

While I do buy most of my army online, it's entirely the store's fault. Most stores mark up GW product by 40 percent. Online, I can find GW products that are marked up around 15 percent. I did the math, buying my army online saved me close to 200 dollars. Its one thing to support your FLGS, its another to be robbed blind by them. Everyone has to balance a check book.

Example: Online I can get a box of boyz for 17 dollars. At my FLGS, they are sold for 24. I need about 12 boxes of boyz for my army. That right there is 84 dollars alone. Not a small amount.

IF FLGS owners choose to mark up their products less, I would over look the extra tidbid here and there.

That being said, I do purchase modeling supplies at the FLGS. Yes my army is internet bought, however, if you do not want me playing at your store, I will purchase my paints else where.

Mr Mystery wrote:
Wrong, actually. And provably so.

This, contrary to many beliefs is an incredibly social hobby. The town I currently live in has a GW, and has had for...erm...15ish years. And do you know what? Every single person I know in this town (thats a couple of hundred at least) I know either directly or indirectly via that shop. It is the common denominator. Simple as. NO website can offer that. Not a single one. No, not even Facebook, unless you are a friend gathering cretin obsessed with having a higher number of 'friends' even though you've likely never met 90% of them.

THAT is why Bricks and Mortar stores are the life blood of the Wargames Hobby. It's how you meet new opponents. It's where you brush up or even learn skills. It is very literally the common ground. The internet is a useful wing of the Hobby Community, but if somehow the interwebs went 'poof' and disappeared right now, the Wargames Hobby would continue. If every Brick and Mortar store somehow went 'pooof' right now, the Hobby as a whole is well and truly buggered.

The only person wrong actually is.....you. Is a a social hobby? Absolutely. But let me point out one particular thing your missing. Rdiddle me this- what are you doing right now? Posting on? Discussing on? Where do you post your army lists? Get tactical advice? News and rumors of upcoming models and armies? Get painting advice? get meetups for games, find new clubs or gaming groups?

Where are you arguing right now? thats right, the internet. If the stores went "poof" right now, we'd do what we did back in the day long before there were many brick and mortars(in fact some of us still dont have decent ones). Play at a friends basement. With the magic wonders of the web, I can find opponents, get advice, buy models all in my fluffy slippers.

Never looked through gamers looking for gamers have you? Its how I got into my last RPG game. Its how we coordinate next warmachine/hordes game night. The wonders of the web that no store can really do. Or at least I should say, none I have ever been to in my lifetime.

The hobby was here long before FLGS, it will be here long after them.

Not to nit-pick here Tripp but if those stores staffed by cave trolls or whatever aren't able to pull you away from the one with the table that has a bridge on it then they aren't actually competition.

And I would rent the hell out of some lockers.

A store that can should absolutely charge a fee. That's a no - brainer. It's just business.

Most stores don't because they can generate more demand by having an active free gaming community, thus encouraging new people to come in and watch product be used, incentivizing them to make that first purchase and join in the local gaming community. Free gaming space is the demand that moves the store's supply and keeps revenue coming in.

Some stores can justify a fee if there's enough of a 'gamer elite' wishing for a more exclusive gaming experience. This is only really made possible if the store can offer some sort of clearly superior gaming experience, like exceptional facilities, terrain, screening out the unwashed cave troll masses... If your community is large enough and select enough to support a membership club without damaging your inventory demand, you as a store owner should go for it.

Hmmm, as someone who has worked retail management for years i have to say I agree with both sides of this argument.

When it comes to running a retail shop "The customer is king" the customer pays your bills, and your salary. Treating him like he's a burden to you is the wrong way to run a business. There are several reasons that the logic of this store owner is flawed.

War gaming is great for business. In retail, a customer on average is in your store for less than 20 minutes. If that customer is playing a game that takes 3 hrs to play you have increased your "face time" with the customer 9 fold. If you ignore the customer the entire time he is playing then you have wasted your time. I can't count how many times i've played a game in a store had watched the clerk sit behind the counter reading a comic book the entire game. If i was his boss i would fire him. Customer interaction is key. Should he be standing watching over the game the whole time? no. but to ignore two customers for 3 hours? Idiocy.

While that customer is there for 3 hrs, having drinks, snacks or other amenities available to him should be key. Why because it gets him invested.

Even if the "offending" customer did buy his entire army online that's no reason from a retail perspective to villify him. He's gonna have friends right? They're gonna need armies right? might they buy online? sure, but they might also buy in store. Telling some that they can't be customers in their shop because they bought some of their things elsewhere is stupid. I wouldn't tell a customer in my store to leave unless they were going to spend money. That would make me a bad salesman.

Now, I do agree with a pay to play policy as long as it gets you bonus'. Acess to better tables than the standard customer, or garunteed tables at certain times, or something like that are great ways to create loyal customers. Once a customer buys into the idea of your shop you have them hooked. Studies have shown that consumers who have formed a relationship with a store will purchase in store even at higher prices.

My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high. It's got more tables, food/drinks, a shop area; my GW has 2 cramped 4x4s and the rest is shop and a small painting area.

Membership pays for the electricity, heating, water, rent ect. as well as giving you a further discount to already discounted store prices.

With the only alternative if the store goes under being an uncomfortable GW environment, and the fee being a tiny gesture, I feel it's only fair to try and keep the place running. People who don't pay or see it as rude to even ask could soon find themselves with nowhere to go after work.

Whilst what you're paying for is fair, there are consequences for not paying. Are some people really that far up on their high horse that they'll risk the store going under and ruining the gaming experiences for a lot of other people just in the effort to save £30 per year?

Daggermaw wrote:

When it comes to running a retail shop "The customer is king" the customer pays your bills, and your salary. Treating him like he's a burden to you is the wrong way to run a business. There are several reasons that the logic of this store owner is flawed.....

Now, I do agree with a pay to play policy as long as it gets you bonus'. Acess to better tables than the standard customer, or garunteed tables at certain times, or something like that are great ways to create loyal customers. Once a customer buys into the idea of your shop you have them hooked. Studies have shown that consumers who have formed a relationship with a store will purchase in store even at higher prices.

You make good points, but I need to point out one thing. When the customer doesn't buy from your store, are they still a customer? I think not but I don't work in retail. They may have friends they can bring in, true, but unless their friends are above their influence, which pulled them into the hobby, then they will go the cheap route as well.

On the loyalty point, I agree but everyone is different. Some people will scoff at instore prices because of the deals you can get online. I don't even think store prices are premium because they are the same as retail GW, but without shipping costs. I consider that a small, very small price to pay, especially since once one buys an army, unless they just buy extras or a NEW army, they are done spending money on merchandise on a large scale....

Also everyone should keep in mind that you pay 35 USD for a box of marines. That's not 35 bucks the store gets pure profit, because they had to pay for those marines, and the lights, and rent, etc.

I want to say this generally again to those browsing this thread, the membership is up for discussion as an option. I love when people leap with both arms to extremes.


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Avatar 720 wrote:Whilst what you're paying for is fair, there are consequences for not paying. Are some people really that far up on their high horse that they'll risk the store going under and ruining the gaming experiences for a lot of other people just in the effort to save £30 per year?

Some people are, yes and they are quite lame. I chose this hobby knowing it was expensive, I consider it a monthly bill! I set aside funds for it. I suppose it is a project that I manage. Part of it is the store, because without the store, there is the garage/basement. Those are great places if you want a quick game after hours but as my only option, my interest would wain significantly as it has since RT days.

taoofss. I realize you werent saying me. I just wanted to respond to over charging. the items in my store are at retail much like the price you indicated on your post. you cant really sell all the time below retail in a store due to other costs like rent, electricity, and so on. online dealers can afford to do it since they dont really need much space.

i dont recall who said it but i dont and would not kick people out simply because they came in and played here. I talk to all of my customers and try to interact as often as possible. if you came in and played here cool. if you bought nothing o well no biggie. if you cam in say a dozen times and did this and basically provide nothing to this community or the store then i would address it and it would more than likely be a please dont come back thing. basically i dont care if people come into play. a lot of times it is like test driving a car.
internet wording so fickle. if only we all could transport quickly to and from. being here in person is so much easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am glad this happened. Like others said I learned to watch how I say things. I usually do but I guess this time around not so well. I also have some ideas on how to approach all of this in general. I thank all of you for the insight and this will help me make a final decision on how we put the new tables to use.
Happy New Year.
Zombie Dice as a drinking game is awesome by the way.

chrispryor wrote:taoofss. I realize you werent saying me. I just wanted to respond to over charging. the items in my store are at retail much like the price you indicated on your post. you cant really sell all the time below retail in a store due to other costs like rent, electricity, and so on. online dealers can afford to do it since they dont really need much space.

The following obviously isn't the same situations in all stores but this was with mine. When I was starting my army, I went to my local FLGS. I asked the owner if they were doing any sort of discount for 40k. I told him I wanted to purchase an entire army. He flat out told me "no." He could offer me nothing. Whats my incentive to buy at this store? Whats my incentive to over pay? I was willing to spend up to 500 dollars that day then and there if the store would work with me a little. But since there was no budging room for him, I took my business else where.

If store owners want to mark up their prices by 40 percent of whole sale, then expect players to purchase their items online. Like I said, everyone's got to balance their checkbooks. Its absolutely silly for the OP's FLGS to frown upon or even ban players who have internet armies.

you are right

I've heard of membership fees like that. I believe good old Dakka Dakka the brick
and mortar store had them.

I would shop at a store with cool terrain. I would pay to play at that same
store. However, not being from wherever this is, I'll never get a chance to
weigh in on this matter in meat-space. Ah well.

Avatar 720 wrote:My local store has started introducing a small annual fee, but the reasons why are obvious and fair. It's about 2-3x larger than my local GW, and the costs of running it are high.

The stores I go to pay for those costs by - and this is going to seem really out there - selling stuff. Turns out the business owner just like, does that, with his business, instead of asking for donations to keep the lights on. Maybe at some point during the process of filing for a corporation, picking out a spot to put his shop in, signing up for the lease, etc, he realized that he wasn't opening a branch of the Salvation Army.