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So, instead of a battle report to bring you today dakka, I have to ask you a question. The situation: I am playing a 1000 point game against a Tau player. On the board, there is a large building blocking line of site from your end to his. Not a big deal, I can go around. He then, for the rest of the game, quickly rolls important rolls behind it and snatch them up before I can see them. He then pulls out his Taros Campaign book after I have said no forgeworld. He puts it away and opens his Tau codex. I, naturally playing infantry guard because I am a suave and dashing young man , begin to to get out my army. After you have finished, your opponent says he is done with his list. I see a piece of paper next to him with tau writing on it, and assume its his list. I ask him what is in his army. He explains that he has 2 crisis suit commanders and 9 crisis suits, and that one is "special issue" with a 2+ Armour save. He also has 20 fire warriors, a devil fish and a hammaerhead. We start the game, dawn of war killpoints, and then he says his "blacksun filters" make it so he can see through night vision. Game begins, I steal the initiative. And start shooting. I searchlight his commander on the field, and he pulls out a piece of paer with "EXPERIMENTAL RULES" written across the top. I told him no forgeworld, but he insist that it isnt and that he can use it. I tell him to go ahead, because I just want to play the game, I dont want to stop and restart now. (Time limit before I had to catch the bus). He shows it to me and it has crazy special rules. We continue throughout the game, and suddenly his crisis suits are bodyguards to his commanders, and one of them is farsight. He then starts adding upgrades in game, I ask to see his list, and he says he doesn't have one. The paper was just scrath paper of a different list. He goes to talk to one of his friends, and I pop open his codex and start adding things up. 1000 point game, with his "special commander" and all his units (no upgrades, as I didnt know where to find them), he had 1085. I figured he was AT LEAST 100 points over, were he had insisted at the start of the game at having 1000. He came back, and I told him to write a list next time, cleaned up my models and walked away. The store employees were mad that I had walked out on a game because the kid was 14, even though at this point, I am SURE he was cheating.

So dakka, after that wall of text, what would YOU have done?

I probably would have asked to see an army list when things seemed out of hand. If my opponent doesn't want to share his list with me, (I'm always happy to go over my list with my opponent and often bring a copy to hand over to them) I'd politely decline playing any further. Or maybe I'd play out the game and try to beat the cheater despite his cheating ways.

Edit: 11 crisis suits is a lot to have in a 1,000 point list. I used to squeeze that many into a 2,000 point list.

A lot of the things you seem to have issue with, like the 2+ armor upgrade, and blacksun filters, are totally normal.

The no army list thing is shady though. Always ask for a list at the start of the game.

Hmmm...
I would've just played that game IF he is not one of those kids who would spend most of his time talking to friends and make up wierd rules.
If he is one of those annoying weaklings then I can imagine me going "what a slow?!" then pack up and go for a coffee.

The fact that his crisis suits just happened to have what he needed at that exact moment is what lead to believe he was cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, it's also good he had bonding knives to have really high leadership.

I probably would of played it out, knowing I was under powered and likely to lose, but I'm stubborn like that. Just chalk it up as a learning experience and know not to play with the kid again...

Ecurb The Mighty wrote:I probably would of played it out, knowing I was under powered and likely to lose, but I'm stubborn like that. Just chalk it up as a learning experience and know not to play with the kid again...

Problem was that I was UNDER 1000 points, like 955, and he was WAY over. I like to play games where the sides are even, not lopsided. Can anyone confirm that bonding knives do anything?

Happygrunt wrote:

Ecurb The Mighty wrote:I probably would of played it out, knowing I was under powered and likely to lose, but I'm stubborn like that. Just chalk it up as a learning experience and know not to play with the kid again...

Problem was that I was UNDER 1000 points, like 955, and he was WAY over. I like to play games where the sides are even, not lopsided. Can anyone confirm that bonding knives do anything?

They allow you to regroup under half strength.

packing up and walking out is the right thing to do.

Instead of verbally blasting away at a kid which will get your no where, you just remove yourself from the situation and free up some time in your life to drink a coffee or whatever, instead of seething over a little game in which some people don't understand the point of it, a social game in which both participates are striving to add a little happiness to each other's lives.

No army list. No game.

You did the right thing.

Considering that the kid was under the age of 18, I wouldn't have played him in the first place. Personal Rule. But, then again, if I play one game a month, that's a lot.

I'm a Painter, not a player.

/Hate the player, not the game.

Worglock wrote:Considering that the kid was under the age of 18, I wouldn't have played him in the first place. Personal Rule. But, then again, if I play one game a month, that's a lot.

I'm a Painter, not a player.

/Hate the player, not the game.

No offense, but that's a pretty gakky attitude. Kids under 18 aren't always like that. It's usually the environment (ie the store), not the player, that generates this kind of behaviour.

I Would have done the same and rolled on out. Taken a note of the kid an avoided him next time.

I always find that if they are giving you BS right from the start of the game.. They will the whole time and generally isnt worth it.

-Loki- wrote:

Worglock wrote:Considering that the kid was under the age of 18, I wouldn't have played him in the first place. Personal Rule. But, then again, if I play one game a month, that's a lot.

I'm a Painter, not a player.

/Hate the player, not the game.

No offense, but that's a pretty gakky attitude. Kids under 18 aren't always like that. It's usually the environment (ie the store), not the player, that generates this kind of behaviour.

I disagree. Not all young players are bad, but it's not the store's fault if they don't know the rules well or don't want to take the game seriously.

I tend to agree. That kind of behavior tends to stem from playing within a small friendship group, rather than an established store with experienced players. Those kids play together with whatever models they feel like, probably have never read the whole rulebook between them, and just pull rules out of their as...er codex whenever it suits their needs. If established players can find the patience to teach them proper play, they can often be turned around.

Worglock wrote:Considering that the kid was under the age of 18, I wouldn't have played him in the first place. Personal Rule.

I'm a lot like this.

It's not that I regard anyone not old enough to buy a beer or vote as less than human (I do, in many cases - with their crap musical taste and inability to conceive of a belt), it's more of a "I'm more than twice your age." factor. When I started, I was playing against people my own age - but I was also 18/19 myself. I've never played against someone younger than 18.
I just PREFER to play games against people who are closer to my own age.

The OPs situation: No list, no game. I don't care if he was accurate and can remember the book verbatim. I want to see it in B/W in front of me.

I always ask for their army list but if its a freindly which most of mine usually are I just tend to play it no matter the point difference (Within reason, not going to play 1000 vs 2000).

War isn't fair. If you've prepared for any situation then just play your army if you win then its just more bragging rights if you lose you have a good excuse

Exactly what you did. You did the right thing.

A blacksun filter allows you to double the distance in night fighting, not ignore night fighting. A bonding knife allows a unit to regroup below half strength, it does not boost leadership.

A commander is allowed to take 2 crisis suit bodyguards who are special, so it is possible for him to have 4 of those (2 for each). I tallied everything you said he definitely had (2 commanders, 9 crisis, 20 warriors, dfish, hammerhead, blacksun filters, iridium armor, bonding knives) and I got around 850. If he did have farsight it would be 970. That is without any weapons on his suits (which is illegal). Between 11 crisis suits, you would be hard pressed to outfit all of them with 150 points. I would say he was definitely over points.

The 2+ armor is Iridium Armor- it is a "special issue" system, so he wasn't trying to cheat you there, however it is expensive and reduces his ability to move.

He couldn't have legally used Farsight, because it expressly states he can only be used in games of 1500 or more.

Also, what the does "experimental rules" mean? Thats absolutely rediculous.

What does this all add up to? Cheater.

You did the right thing Happygrunt. Way to be the bigger man. Oh also it might seem like I'm siding with him with my little tally, but I'm simply getting the facts straight.

OP, you did good. I would of done the same personally but I may have been more... vocal. In a nice way

The store employees were mad that I had walked out on a game because the kid was 14

HA! This makes me laugh. Was it red shirts? I find it strange that they got upset cause they felt bad for the 14 year old brat who can't play by the rules, which they so arduously enforce.

I think you definately did the right thing. If the store employees make a stink about, especially after you explain the situation, then forget em. Keep playing with the good players who are there to have fun, not win at all costs.

Yup, a fred shirt. I came up and explained myself. I am not the creepy guy in the store either. I am usually very well dressed (Plain T shirt if I didnt go to church, polo if I did, I go to GW on sundays mostly)

Whats really sad? It was either him or no game. I REALLY wanted to get in more games as IG, so you can see why I TIRED to get the game to work. But hey, cant play em' all I guess.

ph34r wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Worglock wrote:Considering that the kid was under the age of 18, I wouldn't have played him in the first place. Personal Rule. But, then again, if I play one game a month, that's a lot.

I'm a Painter, not a player.

/Hate the player, not the game.

No offense, but that's a pretty gakky attitude. Kids under 18 aren't always like that. It's usually the environment (ie the store), not the player, that generates this kind of behaviour.

I disagree. Not all young players are bad, but it's not the store's fault if they don't know the rules well or don't want to take the game seriously.

Sorry, but it is the stores fault. They obviously paid attention to the game, enough that they were angry that the OP walked out. Seeing commotion about rules and army, they should have stepped in. By not stepping in when the kid got away with presenting a false list, using experimental rules when the OP said he didn't agree to use them in that game, and seeing commotion over things like changing units mid game, they're effectively promoting this type of play to the kid. If they stepped in, corrected him, and told him to play properly, the kid would learn. I know I did (though I didn't outright cheat, but I was an donkey-cave). If he didn't, they'd have grounds to not let him play at the store, which, again, would make him learn to not pull gak.

The store itself and the employees are a huge influence on younger gamers. However, this is also a fault of GW who don't like dealing with this stuff anymore for the most part, but still, it's store discretion.

I am apparently labeled a "competitive" player because I write my lists the way it is required to be posted on dakka and I dont like to play in Apoc/ mega battles. I guess the bonus is that they leave me alone for the most part. But it means stuff like this will happen I guess.

you did the right thing. some people would freak out and be as immature as your former opponent was. You had clear expectations that he would play fair, and you would grace him with the same fair play. He bent the most important rule, and that's to have fun. You didn't enjoy the experience, so walking away without causing a scene was the right thing. now you know for next time not to play him.

^ +1
you did the right thing, theres no way i would have stuck around for that, a call for shenanigans would have been in order.

PraetorDave wrote:
Also, what the does "experimental rules" mean? Thats absolutely rediculous.

I'm guessing they were the FW Experimental rules. That ruleset that includes the LR Achilles and other such nonsense. They're posted on FW's site as a free download. I think one of the Xenos races just got a new one put out for them too. Might have been Eldar though. Can't remember.

I gotta say, your guy would have really pissed me off, but I think you handled it about as appropriately as possible. Between him using rulesets you weren't prepared for, changing upgrades in game, using experimental rules, and going over points, I'd say your time and effort weren't worth it.

I wouldn't play him either, no matter what age bracket he is in. He uses rules that you haven't agreed upon, lies about this rules

special commander eh and experimental rule? Can't be O'Rmyr
has to be O'ralai

can't be a 1000 point list , he was clearly over

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

He probably did not lie about the function of his wargear, and, while I haven't added it up yet, you can fit all that in a 1k point list. He had some things wrong, but not by much. Frankly, it sounds like all you did was make an ass of yourself out of ignorance instead of helping him get the rest of the way to being correct.

I would have helped him work out his list really.

You can fit everything you've listed into a 900 point list. Admittedly it's hard to say if it was cheating without seeing that they were armed with. The rules he's talked about exist too and aren't very expensive. You'd be surprised what your can fit in a Tau army. So I don't think he was cheating

You really need to make sure, if you care about such things, that the list is correct and available before you start.

Help the guy with his list, be polite and explain what the correct... (etiquette?) is and if you play him again things will be easier.

Go easy on Tau players, they're and endangered species right now.