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I should have known better. I should have expected it. I should have remembered what GW did to my pure World Eaters army in 40K when they destroyed years of background, removed massive amounts of choice and flexibility, and imposed on us the utter rubbish that was the latest version of C:CSM. The defects in that abortion have been discussed exhaustively here and elsewhere and need not be repeated.

It was about at that time that I became interested in WHFB. And of all the armies in WHFB, the one I was interested in most was Tomb Kings. Why? Because of the Egyptian theme. Because I liked chariots. Because of the unique magic system, which was perfectly adapted to the army and made sense. So, I put together my TK army.

Then along came 8th Edition, and I got that bad feeling again. As did many of you, from comments here and elsewhere. Making fear almost completely worthless, which badly affected TK skellies. Excessive randomness, especially in charging. Random magic, which didn’t seem to affect TK as much, because of their unique magic system. Some aspects of 8th Edition seemed to be improvements, but to me it was somewhere between “two steps forward, one step back” and “one step forward, two steps back”.

When the temporary TK revisions came out last year, I could live with them, but kept hoping for some kind of improvement in things like fear, as well as costs for the various units which seemed too high. When the new, and 60% more expensive, hardcover O&G army book came out, I resigned myself to wasting a lot more money on a book that would eventually be obsoleted. And as the time for the new TK army book drew near, I (foolishly!) let myself hope that GW would do right by TK, or at least not trash the entire concept of the army a la C:CSM. Finally, I ordered and obtained my copy.

Can you say “SUCKER”?

As soon as I glanced through the 96 pages I’d just dropped $40.00 for, I got the feeling that I’d just been handed a big crap sandwich. But I wanted to be fair. So, I compared it, rule by rule and unit by unit, with the 7th Edition version. And having finished doing so, my worst fears were not only realized, they were White Dwarfed into invisibility by the awful reality, while the faint hopes that I had held on to, against all experience, were hurled off to infinity like a screaming skull.

In my humble opinion, the new TK army book isn’t just a crap sandwich. It’s a Las Vegas casino buffet of crap. This post will set out the reasons for my opinion.

Now, to all you GW cheerleaders out there whose first smug, self-congratulatory reaction is, “Oh, he’s just afraid of change,” my answer to you is, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m all for “change” that is beneficial to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. I resent and oppose “change” that is detrimental to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. The “change” that the new TK army book represents is, in my view, overwhelmingly the latter rather than the former. If nothing else (and there is a lot else), it seems to be of a piece with the apparent GW strategy of marketing its products to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money. If a rule is too hard for that 9-year-old brat to follow, out with it! If a unit is too complicated for that 9-year-old brat, change it! If a few armies are distinctive and confuse that 9-year-old brat, well, turn ‘em generic and get rid of that distinctiveness!

Since there are some beneficial changes, to be fair, I’ll start with my review of them. It won’t take long. The full horror of this monstrosity will then quickly become apparent.

Note: I will go into some detail on the various TK rules and units, for the benefit of non-TK players. TK players may find some of this discussion elementary, but hopefully also accurate. If I’ve made any factual errors, feel free to correct me.

THE BLESSINGS OF THE ASP GODDESS

Tomb Kings casters now have access to three Lores of magic, with 18 spells and 3 signature spells, as well as Lore attributes. Some of these new spells actually have utility. The spells can be modified to increase their effectiveness, and can be cast with Irresistible Force. Some spells, like Shem’s Burning Gaze, are somewhat better than their 7th Edition analogs.

Tomb Kings Hierophants, and any units they join, now get Regeneration (6+).

A number of TK units have reduced costs and/or improved characteristics. Thus, Skeleton Warriors and Archers have lower cost and better Leadership, and Warriors have standard shields.
Tomb Swarms have lower costs and are no longer 0-1.

The former Skeleton Light Horsemen now correspond most closely to 8th Edition’s Skeleton Horse Archers. Same base cost, same weaponry. The new guys get a somewhat cheaper full command, and also get Scouts. Marginal improvement here.

Skeleton Heavy Horsemen are replaced by Skeleton Horsemen, and have lower cost, cheaper full command, as well as Vanguard.

Chariots, now Skeleton Chariots, are now always core units, you don’t need a Tomb King to lead your army to get them as core. They get extra standard weapons and extra attacks, and full command comes a good deal cheaper. The Chariot Legions rule lets them get rank bonuses with three models per rank, and improves their Impact Hits when they have rank bonuses.

Tomb Guards get a cost reduction and an optional halberd. This is one of the few units with no negative changes. Thanks for at least getting this one right, GW.

Ushabti seem to have drawn a lot of commentary. They’re 23% cheaper in 8th Edition, which is nothing to sneeze at. They also get extra standard weapons, interesting weapon options and access to command. They also get BS2. On the other hand, they lose two points of Strength. They get it back if they use their great weapon, although they also are stuck swinging last. I think overall the new version is an improvement. The debate seems to be whether they are worth taking, even in view of the improvements.

Carrion get increased Strength, an extra attack and War Beast status, all for the same cost as before. Looks like another positive change with no negatives.

Screaming Skull Catapult gets Leadership 5 and crew standard light armor for the same base price, which is good. On the other hand, they pay 10 points more for Skulls of the Foe. Another baffling change. On the whole, though, I guess this is an improved unit.

The 7th Edition Bone Giant re-appears as the 8th Edition Necrolith Colossus. For 50 fewer points, you get improved BS (pardon the expression) and potentially interesting weapons options. But, you also lose one point of Toughness and one wound. You also lose that heavy armor, with its 3+ armor save. This will result in heavier casualties, especially from low-strength units. For example, (Mathhammer alert!) vs. WS3 S3, for every 36 attacks, the 7th Edition Bone Giant lost one wound, while the 8th Edition Necrolith Colossus loses three wounds. OK, that’s still a low casualty rate, but down three wounds and reduced one wound more means after 36 attacks, you’re down to two wounds and looking to die next round. I’ll still call it an overall improvement, but I’m not completely sold.

Various magic items have improved properties. The Blade of Antarhak gives Regeneration if you recover extra wounds. The Golden Death Mask of Kharnut suppresses the enemy general’s Inspiring Presence, also Hold Your Ground, within 6". Cloak of the Dunes inflicts extra hits when overflying enemy units. Enkhil’s Kanopi produces extra power dice for each Remains in Play spell dispelled. The Standard of the Undying Legion’s power level is upped to 5. The Banner of the Hidden Undead’s unit upper limit is upped to 150 pts, and near-by buried (“Entombed”) units can re-roll scatter and artillery dice.

Plenty of new units are provided. Most of them are very expensive and/or are special characters. They may or may not have some value depending on your army. I do like the new Tomb Herald, which looks like the 8th Edition replacement for the 7th Edition Icon Bearer.

OK, so much for positives. Where do we stand? Well, in the same vein as the crap sandwich/buffet metaphor, if you start with a bucket of poop, you can add all the ice cream you want to it and it’ll still be poop. Conversely, if you start with a bucket of ice cream and add even a drop of poop, it’s no longer ice cream.

In my view, the overwhelming majority of what’s new in the TK army book is the poop that GW added to the ice cream. So get out your spoon and prepare to gag.

THE CURSE OF GW

a) Magic

As mentioned above, GW has imposed the generic “Lore” system on TK’s. This is, in my opinion, and I’d be willing to bet many others’ as well, the single most egregious revision in the entire book. This isn’t “change” so much as “expropriation.” You know, like when the government confiscates someone’s property without compensation. The few positive changes conferred on us TK players, mentioned above, are drowned out by the overall revision like the plaintive mewing of a little lost kitty in the midst of a pride of roaring lions.

Let’s start with the spells available in the two systems. In the 7th Edition system, there were only four incantations available, each of which made sense and fit in with the background of the army. Now, as noted, in 8th Edition there are eighteen spells, three signature spells, and Lore attributes available. More is better, right? Not so fast, caster. In 7th Edition, each caster knew all four spells. If you had, say, a Liche High Priest and two Liche Priests, each of them could cast any one of the four incantation as needed. You were guaranteed to have access to the incantations you wanted.

In 8th Edition, in diametric contrast, you can’t count on having any particular spell at hand, other than the signature spell of whatever Lore your casters select. Worse, even if you do get access to the spells you want, only one of your casters will have it (again, except the signature spells). Even worse, since your spell selection is now at the mercy of little plastic cubes, your strongest caster could end up with your weakest spells, and your weakest caster could end up with your strongest spell.

GW shills, please explain to me: Exactly how does this loss of predictability and loss of wider access to incantations benefits my army? How does this make my investment in your gaming system more valuable? How does it make my property better? And don’t bother with some lame-ass excuse like, “Well, it benefits the meta-game,” or, “Well, every other WHFB army has that,” or some BS like that, because as a customer who has made a large expenditure that deserved protection, I don’t care about every other WHFB army, and I don’t care about the meta-game.

In 7th Edition, your casters always cast the selected incantations. You selected it, and it went off, unless dispelled. Now (lucky us!), TK spells–and why bother even calling them “incantations” any more?–may or may not be cast, again depending on the random action of little plastic cubes, but now multiple layers of them (Power Dice, Casting Value, Not Enough Power!, Broken Concentration). GW shills, time for explanation number two.

In 7th Edition, incantations never miscast. This was a significant benefit. Too significant for GW, since now in 8th Edition TK spells are subject to miscast. Isn’t that special? And it gets better: your Hierophant could miscast, and if he’s really lucky he could die, either from Strength 10 hits, or from being sucked into the void (14% chance!). In which case, your whole army starts to disappear! Isn’t that special?! Wait, we’ve just identified a special feature that 8th Edition magic grants to TK players and nobody else: the ability to roll 12 on two dice and blow up their army! Hey GW clones! Betcha you think that’s an improvement too!

Conversely, 7th Edition incantations were never cast with Irresistible Force. OK, sometimes it would have been nice to get a spell to work without worrying about the other guy dispelling it, but I never really longed for that little perk. Now, TK’s can get IF. But, since IF now equals miscast (two different concepts that should never have been conflated, as some have no doubt pointed out previously), it’s a Pyrrhic victory at best and a disaster at worst, as noted above.

In 7th Edition, incantations weren’t modifiable. Again, that’s a perk I was happy to do without. Lucky TK’s, we now get to modify our spells. And with that benefit, we also get even more exposure to miscasts. Hot damn!

With that as the overall magic framework, let’s look at the spells themselves.

The 7th Edition incantation Sekhubi’s Incantation of Vengeance corresponds most closely to the 8th Edition Shem’s Burning Gaze, which isn’t even a Nehekhara spell, but the signature spell from the Lore of Light. (And before we go any further–what in the name of Settra does that Lore have to do with TK’s? A Lore of magic whose attribute is doing extra damage to undead?! *SMH*) The replacement spell has a longer range, sure. But it also only has a 50% chance of casting by your Level 1 Liche Priest on one power die, and any more power dice risks miscast. The enhanced version is even more problematic, even for your Level 4 Liche High Priest.

Horekhah’s Incantation of Righteous Smiting was also one of the incantations available to Tomb Kings and Tomb Princes per “My Will Be Done!”–more on that later. This incantation was incredibly useful in multiple contexts. It gave units immediate extra shooting attacks, outside the normal sequence of events. It allowed Screaming Skull Catapults to get an extra shot, or even to overcome misfires. It gave an immediate extra attack to units in close combat. And it always went off, like other incantations, unless dispelled. Well, the replacement spell in 8th Edition, Ptra’s Incantation of Righteous Smiting (at least they don’t blame Horekhah for it), merely gives a +1 attack to the target unit (and Multiple Shot (2) to bows), in the normal course of play. Nice, but far from equivalent, let alone improved. And no bargain to cast, either, still less in the enhanced version (which is, I’ll admit, worthwhile if it goes off, affecting all units within 24").

Djedra’s Incantation of Summoning recovered wounds in 7th Edition. Any of your undead units within 12" could be targeted, even if they were in combat. Tomb Guards got extra wound recovery, and skeletons were easier to affect. Any Tomb King unit could be healed by this incantation. In 8th Edition there isn’t even an analogous spell available. Rather, you have to rely on an attribute, The Restless Dead. So, if you happen to have an augment spell available, and if it goes off, doesn’t miscast and isn’t dispelled, and if it targets the right type of unit (and that doesn’t include characters–more on that later), then you get to recover some wounds. Yeah, and if I had some ham, I could have a ham and cheese sandwich, if I had some cheese and if I had some bread. Once again, tremendous unreliability and limited utility have been imposed in place of predictability and versatility. GW apologists, start spinning.

Mankara’s Incantation of Urgency was the other 7th Edition incantation also available via “My Will Be Done!” You could target your own nearby undead unit, not in combat, and give it an immediate normal move, which even allowed the unit to charge. GW decided they needed to improve this one, too–if by “improve” you mean make less useful and more unreliable. The 8th Edition analog, Khsar’s Incantation of the Desert Wind, the signature spell of Nehekhara Lore, admittedly affects more than one unit within the same range (or twice that if enhanced). But, as usual, what we get in area we lose in utility, because now the moved units can’t charge. Thanks a pantload, GW.

OK, what about the extra new spells in Nehekhara Lore, and the other Lores? To me, they’re a big fat “meh”. Sure, some are potentially useful. Giving things like Killing Blow or 5+ Ward Saves, doing direct damage in various ways, or making nice little vortices, is all well and good, if you get them, and if you can use them. Oh, and don’t forget Aspect of the Dreadknight, which gives your units–hold on now– fear! Er, wait a minute–they already have fear! (And again–Lore of Light?! And Lore of Death–what do TK’s have to do with direct damage a la Vampires?!). That naked possibility, in my humble view, isn’t anywhere near enough to compensate for the disaster that is the new magic system taken as a whole.

b) Other Rules

The new TK magic rules are bad enough. The revised TK-specific rules are even more annoying. Every single change is less beneficial to TK players than the previous rule, or reduces the player’s choice. Some are positively detrimental. GW: What were you thinking?!

Let’s look at Hierophant selection first. In 7th Edition, the Liche (High) Priest with the highest Leadership is your Hierophant. In 8th Edition, the one with the highest Wizard level has to be the Hierophant. This may be one of the lesser irritants in the new book, but I can see some situations in which you might want a character with higher Leadership but lower Wizard level to be your Hierophant. That’s out the window now.

A far bigger irritant pertains to wound recovery. In 7th Edition, Djedra’s could be used to recover character wounds as well as wounds for other units. I guess that must have been too powerful to be allowed to persist into 8th Edition, because now you can’t heal characters unless specifically stated to the contrary in the spell, magic item, etc. you want to use for healing. Your TK army is now that much more susceptible to blowing up, since now your Hierophant is that much more vulnerable. Even giving Hierophants, and units they’re attacked to, Regeneration (6+), isn’t worth much. A sixteen percent chance to regain one wound doesn’t compare to Djedra’s in any way, shape or form.

If you think un-healable characters are bad, what until you see the 8th Edition version of “My Will Be Done!” In 7th Edition, Tomb Kings were able to use two incantations per turn (Horekhah’s and/or Mankara’s). They could use them on themselves or on units nearby. Tomb Princes could use one per turn, on themselves. They could be used for extra shooting, or extra close combat attacks, or extra moves including charges.

So what do we get in 8th Edition? “My Will Be Done” (at least they had the decency to delete the exclamation mark). Now, instead of getting one or two incantations per turn, useable in a variety of circumstances, one unit that the TK accompanies gets to use the TK’s Weapon Skill.

Big Fat F***ing Deal.

In my humble opinion, this is the second-worst revision in the new book. This is a joke. It is an insult. Instead of being able to shoot, or move, or get an extra round of close combat, at least once per turn, and twice with a Tomb King, i.e., instead of being versatile, we now get an ability that is useful only once, in limited circumstances, and that may not ever be used at all, if your TK isn’t a close combat character.

Again, GW apologists: How does this change improve my army?!

Characters aren’t the only units who get fun new rules. Let’s talk about those things buried under the desert, like Tomb Scorpions. In 7th Edition, “It Came from Below” was an optional deployment rule. It kicked in on turn 2, and by turn 5 you were guaranteed to enter the game. Once you got on the board, you could act normally, even charge. If you emerged under an enemy unit, you automatically engaged in close combat. Of course, you could suffer a mishap, in which case the best outcome would be that your opponent would place your unit on the board instead of you.

But guess what? In 8th Edition, it’s now “Entombed Beneath the Sands,” which I’ll refer to as “EBS” (which should actually read, “Extreme Bulls***”). Again, at least they changed the name, because the new rule is nothing like the previous one. Unlike ICFB, the new rule is not optional. It kicks in on turn 2, but you always have to roll 3+ to enter the game, i.e., you could end up never entering. If you manage to emerge, it’s during Remaining Moves, so you can’t charge. And to complete the trifecta, you can’t emerge under an enemy unit to get the automatic close combat. Admittedly, the new Mishap table is a bit less detrimental. But that’s one drop of ice cream in a bucket of poop.

c) Units

Although it’s a bit more of a mixed bag than the magic system and TK-specific rules, the revisions to TK units, especially the existing units, in my humble opinion are another net loss for the TK player. As mentioned above, costs for some units are reduced (some significantly), some units get improved stats in one way or another, some units get better standard equipment. But overall, especially in conjunction with the disastrous rules revisions discussed above, it’s irritating if not infuriating.

Let’s start with the Tomb King. For the same points cost as in 7th Edition, we now get standard light armor and–gee whiz!–the option of a big new monster to ride on (and shell out big bucks for), the dreaded Khemrian Warsphinx. Nice, eh? Well, we also get: BS3 instead of BS4, a more expensive optional flail, a significantly more expensive optional chariot, and yes, the abortion that is “My Will Be Done.” The Tomb Prince’s new situation is similar.

Tell me again, GW salesmen: How does this benefit my army?

The Liche High Priest in 8th Edition is a lot cheaper, but also significantly less useful in my humble opinion. On the plus side, besides the cost reduction, you get T4 instead of T3, and an option to upgrade to Wizard level 4. On the minus side, you get: Leadership 8 instead of 9–yes, in a game that is replete with opportunities to suffer due to low Leadership, what makes more sense than to cut down the Leadership of your High Priest and likely Hierophant?! That reduction alone virtually negates the point cost reduction. But it gets worse: you also have the disastrous new magical system, with its unreliability and danger. You get a more expensive optional steed (kind of a quibble in view of the other negatives, but I just thought I’d mention it). And you don’t get the option of a Casket of Souls. I refer you GW shills to the preceding question.

Liche Priests follow the same downward spiral: reduced cost negated by reduced Leadership and dangerously unreliable magic.

Turning to core units, in view of the advantages previously discussed, it’s probably an overall improvement. However, there are still plenty of detrimental changes.

The humble but relatively costly Skeleton Warrior of 7th Edition has been split up into 8th Edition’s Skeleton Warriors and Skeleton Archers. As mentioned above, both have been reduced in cost and both have Leadership upped to 5, which should help them survive at least a little longer when (not if) their Hierophant blows himself up or is otherwise eliminated and they start to destabilize. The new Warriors get shields standard. Both new units, however, have more costly full command. Worse, neither new unit can take a magic standard, even if the general of the army is a Tomb King. So I give the new units a solid “meh”. I’m not sure whether overall they’ve improved or not, although the reduced cost and increased Leadership makes for multiple improved units, while loss of the magic standard mostly affects one unit.

The bony ponies have been switched around and renamed. The former Skeleton Light Horsemen are discussed above. The 7th Edition Skeleton Heavy Horsemen are now just Skeleton Horsemen. They’re 25% cheaper, but no longer have standard shields; if you buy them , the cost reduction is now only 2 points instead of 4. They also get a cheaper full command, and the Vanguard rule. But like their foot bone-slogging counterparts, they are now also denied a magic standard. Another “meh” for this unit. And you GW lovers: how is this army improved by depriving Warriors and Horsemen of their magic standards? I can’t wait to hear your answer!

There must have been some confusion that GW thought it needed to clear up, because 7th Edition Chariots are now 8th Edition Skeleton Chariots. OK, what’s in a name, right? As I noted above, this is another improved unit overall. BUT. They are a good deal more expensive now. And, they are no longer light chariots. This is another brilliant re-conception of the TK army by GW. What’s the one change that comes to mind when someone suggests ways to improve the TK list? Right–make TK’s slower and less maneuverable! Between the new and unimproved MWBD, more expensive steeds and chariots, and other revisions mentioned above, GW has succeeded in doing exactly that. You GW minions reading this, I’m waiting for your explanation.

Tomb Swarms used to be Core in 7th Edition but have been banished to Special in 8th Edition. As mentioned, they’re cheaper, no longer 0-1 and have a larger unit size. On the other hand, they are subject to the dreadful EBS rule. In my humble opinion, the unpredictability of EBS negates whatever advantages 8th Edition grants to Tomb Swarms. What good is saving five points if you never get into play?!

Tomb Scorpions are another unit that somehow screamed to GW, “Quick, weaken me!” For the same price, you now get one less wound and that atrocious EBS rule. Let’s hear why this was a good thing, you GW clones.

As for Rare units, there’s the Casket of Souls. On the one hand, the cost is substantially reduced, it’s no longer 0-1, the crew gets standard light armor, you get extra power dice if you have a CS on the table, and it blows up for extra damage if it’s destroyed. On the other hand, it loses two wounds, the guards are weaker and not as tough, the Keeper of the Casket (no longer a Liche (High) Priest) is down to one wound, it no longer causes terror, and it no longer affects all enemy Wizards’ casting. More problematic is the new Light of Death rule. In 7th Edition, all enemy units that can see the Casket drew a LOS to it, then deducted their Leadership from 2D6+2 to determine the number of wounds. Now, you hit one enemy unit (OK, with a 3D6 Leadership test), and maybe get one or more others that happen to be nearby. So, for example (warning: Mathhammer!), assuming four units with LOS, such that each is within the 6" of the next unit, in 7th Edition you would hit all four of them 100% of the time. Alas, no such luck in 8th Edition: you hit all four of them only 30% of the time. Not only that, but in 8th Edition you have to have all potential targets within 6" of the one before them, unlike in 7th Edition where all you needed was LOS to each unit.

*SMH* You know the question, GW: What were you thinking?!

The existing Special Characters, Settra and Khalida, have been analyzed by others at length. I tend to agree with those who say “Meh!” to Settra and “Nerfed!” to Khalida. Especially the latter. Khalida wasn’t just gutted, the canopic jars were thrown down a well.

d) Magic items

This is another area where GW seems to be fixated on force-fitting the game to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and fathers with too much money. Surely, Nagash must have gotten to the GW team who wrote up this book in order to take his vengeance on Nehekhara.

In 7th Edition, Tomb Kings characters and other designated units had access to all Common magic items in the BRB. They also had thirty-four unique magic items, specifically adapted to and compatible with Tomb Kings armies, including 7 weapons, 4 armors, 5 talismans, 6 enchanted items, 5 arcane items and 7 banners.

GW in its wisdom has seen fit to cut the TK treasury down to eight items: two each of weapons, enchanted items, arcane items and magic standards. Once again: How does this represent an improvement in my army, GW?! And I don't care that you did it to O&G's too. You shouldn't have done it to them either!

That last question was rhetorical, because the answer is obvious: It doesn’t.

But it isn’t just in numbers that TK magic items have been devastated. Of the remaining eight items, each and every one costs more, and almost every one has been weakened in some way. True, most have also been given additional abilities, but many of these are of questionable worth for the extra price.

Of the surviving items, Destroyer of Eternities now costs 10 points more. For that cost increase, your model now inflicts one hit on each enemy in base contact instead of two.

The Spear of Antarhak, now the Blade of Antarhak, costs 15 points more, is no longer a spear, and, instead of regaining 1 wound for the character, his chariot or his unit, only regains that wound for the character.

The Death Mask of Kharnut has been gilded, at an extra cost of 25 points, to become the Golden Death Mask of Kharnut. For that extra cost, you get to suppress the enemy general’s Inspiring Presence and the enemy’s Hold Your Ground within six inches. OK fine. At least it still causes terror. But the price increase is way out of line with the added value, in my humble opinion.

Cloak of the Dunes has more than doubled in cost. For those 30 extra points, you now also get to cause extra hits to enemy units you fly over (Strength 2–I guess you’re spitting down at them). Is this worth the price increase? Not to me it isn’t.

Neferra’s Plaques of Mighty Incantations have been degraded to Scrolls. Appropriate, I suppose, for an item which used to last forever but now is only good for one use. And for a mere 20 points more, instead of being able to re-roll the dice for any incantation you cast, for the entire game, you now get one shot at adding your Wizard level in bonus dice to the power dice you’re using (which don’t count towards power dice, btw). And as an extra bonus, if you roll any double–not just double 6's–you get Irresistible Force + miscast! Thanks another pantload for that, GW. I’ll be sure to give this to my Hierophant.

Enkhil’s Kanopi has gone up by only 5 points. But for that small cost increase, you get a power level reduction from 4 to 3. Also, instead of dispelling all Remains in Play spells on successful activation, you get to roll to see if any of them are dispelled (2+). So (Mathhammer alert!), if three RiP spells are on the table, you go from a 100% chance of dispelling them all to a 58% chance. Yippy-skippy!

The Banner of the Undying Legion must have gotten golden brocade or something, as in 8th Edition it’s now the Standard of the Undying Legion and costs twice as much. And for that 25 extra points, you get a bound spell of power level 5 instead of 3 that, if it goes off, regains D6+2 wounds (average 5.5) rather than D3 (average 2) or D6 (average 3.5) or the higher of 2D6. However, it won’t heal your characters. Good trade? Not in my book. I’d much rather get a wound back for my Tomb King or Hierophant than 3 wounds in skellies. Tell me again, GW cheerleaders, why I can’t regain character wounds in 8th Edition!

Last, and least, there’s the Banner of the Hidden Undead. For 90 total points (an increase of 30 points), you get to bury one unit of up to 150 points, compared to 100 points in 7th Edition. Great, right? No, not great. The previous Banner allowed your unit to be unearthed during the Remaining Moves phase of any TK Movement Phase. The unit could be placed within 18" of the Banner (and more than 1" from an enemy unit), and move normally when it appeared. Now, for your extra 30 points you are subject to EBS. If your unit ever shows up, it is placed within only 12" of the Banner. Oh, and any other units subject to EBS that also attempt to emerge with 12" get to re-roll scatter and artillery dice, but not the roll to actually appear. So, for 90 points, you get to bury 150 points’ worth of TK infantry, cavalry or chariots, and then, if you’re really lucky, watch them stay buried for the whole game.

Say it with me, will you? GW, what were you thinking?!

If TK players find this unsatisfactory, they are stuck with the BRB, with items like, oh, Trickster’s Helm, Scarecrow Banner and the Terrifying Mask of EEE!, that one would naturally expect to find in any tomb in Nehekhara.

NEW UNITS AWAKEN

In my humble opinion, while some of the new units in 8th Edition TK are worthwhile, overall, it’s a case of trying to polish a turd.

The 7th Edition Icon Bearer’s 8th Edition counterpart is the Tomb Herald. I actually like this revision. As compared to the Icon Bearer, the Tomb Herald has a lower base cost, one more attack, standard light armor, and lots of optional weapon upgrades. It’s no longer limited to 0-1. And, it can act as a meat, er, bone shield for your Tomb Kings and Princes. True, it has to pay a lot in order to carry the army’s battle standard, and it suffers from the general increase in cost for chariots and steeds. It’s also now flammable, which is problematic but not devastating. Overall, I see this as an improvement for the TK army. Alas, it’s one of the few.

Necrotects offer Regeneration (6+) to nearby Animated Constructs, and confer Hatred on their units. They can also take 50 points of magic items, which, as is evident from the preceding discussion, doesn’t get you much TK gear anymore. They’re Heroes, and not cheap.

Necropolis Knights cost as much as the 7th Edition Ushabtis. They do have good stats. They may be worth taking as Specials. They’re also very expensive to buy at your FLGS.

Sepulchral Stalkers are another expensive Special. Transmogrifying Gaze sounds like an amusing power if it misfires, which is not unlikely. Unfortunately, it’s also subject to EBS. Meh.

Hierotitans seem like potentially interesting Rares, about the same cost as Necrolith Colossi. Spirit Conduit looks useful for your Liche Priests.

Necrosphinxes and Khemrian Warsphinxes are huge, and hugely expensive (in points and dollars) units that could be useful in some situations and in large enough armies.

Then there’s a plethora of new special characters, including Arkhan the Vampire, er, the Black (what the hell is he doing in the TK army book?!), Grand Hierophant Khatep, the Herald Nekaph, Prince Apophas and Ramhotep the Visionary. They range from expensive to very, very expensive. They all provide different advantages and bonuses to your army. I personally have never been enthused about special characters. In general, I think they’re gimmicks, and I don’t like to rely on gimmicks. Some would disagree.

Regardless of how good any of the foregoing units may be, in my humble opinion they don’t come close to compensating for the destructive and unnecessary changes to the very nature of the Tomb Kings list that appear on every page of the 8th Edition army book.

In summary, GW has taken a distinctive, interesting army, which admittedly needed some upgrading, but which could have been improved starting on the basis of last summer’s revisions, and turned it into another generic WHFB army that, in my view, is worse off overall than before the revision. I am frankly disgusted with GW. I’m also disgusted with myself for letting myself be taken in by another false promise of a revision that actually respects GW’s adult customer base.

GW minions, bring it on.

Everyone knew they were going to get "normal" magic. I don't think that was remotely a secret. It's hard enough balancing as many armies as they had, but when you have a magic/sorta-magic, how do other abilities and items interract with them? They had to basically FAQ every ability.

And no, TK didn't need "some upgrading," they completely sucked. They were horrid.

That was a lot of bile in your post, which is frankly hard for me to grasp as I think the new book is damn cool, and yes, I had the old one, and yes, I'm more than an "adult customer." To each his own.

I read through your post and I must say from what i have seen of the new TK alot of your argument seems to be complaining for the sake of complaining. Also the common lores in my opinion improved the army.

I'm also not sure what the problem is with having a normal "lore" type setup for Tomb Kings. It streamlines the game a bit... ogres will probably have Gut Magic brought into line with current things (i.e. each wizard won't have loremaster / know all spells).

But yeah, I don't know... I guess you're not happy with the new tomb kings, but I thought they looked pretty well re-done and quite tempting!

Personally I like the new change. The purpose of "normal" lores of magic is to streamline the game and make it less complicated. As a Wood Elf player i am sure they will take away the shadow dances of loec and make dyrads RNF units but it is for the better. So quit your complaining, your army wasnt de-fluffed it was made stronger. The basic premis of TK stayed the same, plus you get some cool new stuff to add to your army.

Too long but did read

Unfortunately it was a waste of 15minutes.
Please go rant about something more useful, like politics or human rights.

You know, you can just use the old book.

I did debate taking all of your points one by one, but then I realized I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a teaspoon. I suppose I can somewhat relate to your problems with a few things (particularly the impossibility of bringing back character wounds, which is kind of silly if you're correct).

Overall, though, the TK book represents a continuation of a very positive trend in GW book writing IMO. The Beastmen, OnG, and now TK are good, viable, competitive army lists without being the overpowered cheesefest the Skaven book was. On the point about only 8 very expensive magic items, this has been debated before, and will be again I'm sure, but I understand it; it's to diminish the possibility of obnoxious combos like the unkillable dark elf dreadlord, speculum war altar pope, completely invulnerable to everything high elf archmage, tower of world dragon elves, and so on. In general, I support the theory, particularly given the massive list of items (many of which are very useful) available in the BRB.

Others have suggested it in this thread, but let me come out and say it: I believe the basic problem here isn't GW or their rule writing, but your attitude. You're free to be disappointed, or even to quit the hobby (though that would be a shame), but just because GW's creative philosophy doesn't happen to precisely line up with what you were hoping for in a new TK book doesn't warrant this kind of fury. Your book hasn't been ruined,* it's just been changed. If those changes are uncongenial to you to the point where you want to quit playing, then you should; this is a hobby, and people should cease doing hobbies when they cease to be fun.

Playing the GW hobby means you're subject to their decisions. I doubt there's anybody reading this who has never been frustrated with any of them. However, I'd suggest that the hour or so you spent writing this post could have been spent figuring out how to mitigate these problems and enjoy the game, or figuring out how expensive it will be to buy that Trollbloods army

*Competitively, this is a solid codex. It will win some tournaments sometimes, but not win every tournament all the time like 7th ed Daemons. It requires a thoughtful, tactical player and a lot of careful maneuvering. Also, the models being released are uniformly wonderful as far as most people I've heard from are concerned.

I for one love the fact the the new TK emphasis is on undead constructs and a legion-styled army. My recognition of this emphasis has nothing to do with its competitiveness because that's a ridiculous extrapolation.

These books aren't written in order to make you more successful at tournaments and updates aren't published to benefit your army in any way except in terms of compatibility with the current ruleset and expansion of the miniatures range.

Now, to all you GW cheerleaders out there whose first smug, self-congratulatory reaction is, “Oh, he’s just afraid of change,” my answer to you is, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m all for “change” that is beneficial to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. I resent and oppose “change” that is detrimental to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. The “change” that the new TK army book represents is, in my view, overwhelmingly the latter rather than the former. If nothing else (and there is a lot else), it seems to be of a piece with the apparent GW strategy of marketing its products to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money. If a rule is too hard for that 9-year-old brat to follow, out with it! If a unit is too complicated for that 9-year-old brat, change it! If a few armies are distinctive and confuse that 9-year-old brat, well, turn ‘em generic and get rid of that distinctiveness!

I loved the way the OP infers that he cannot enjoy wargaming unless he wins games. I especially like the way he turned the idiot phrase 'fanboy' into a personal insult towards anyone who disagrees with him. It's all cool though, because he doesn't afraid of anything.

I agree with the "not enough magical items" point, and with the dumb Irresistible Force (+miscast) problem for the Hierophant...

Other than this, I don't know that army enough to complain... I do like the new models though...

Lol, you mad?

I love the way the OP flat out said he didn't care about army balance, he just wanted the new book to make all his stuff better.

EmilCrane wrote:Lol, you mad?

Thats not nice Jeremy

LunaHound wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:Lol, you mad?

Thats not nice Jeremy

Wait... I don't know you do I?

I can't wait for the new dwarf book. Out with runes and in with a Dwarf Lore where all the spell include the word Rune.

I don't see it as complaining for the sake of complaining...
He has made plenty of good points, and if you actually took the time to read his post, instead of coming in here and trying to flame anyone who expresses their opinions...you might realize that.

TK players have plenty to be pissed about with this new army book. It's not because GW didn't make TK overpowered. That's not why TK players are complaining. It's because TK players waiting so long for a new book, all the while doing their best with the weak 7th army rules they had, constantly getting raped because they were in need of an update more than any other army, and then when that update finally comes out, it actually makes the weakest army in the game EVEN WEAKER.

You can't tell me that you actually think the new TK book is stronger than the last version. Read that one more time before you post. I said STRONGER than last version. TK players weren't looking for a "balanced revision of their current book," because our current book wasn't balanced at all. It needed a huge buff, and when the new TK book was released, all that was in it was nerf, nerf, nerf.

It really is a bit ridiculous. The TK costing the same price as it used to, while MWBD getting nerfed the way it did? Where's the justification in that?

Your telling me MWBD is bad...really? How is having your skeletons, your core tropps for 4pts a pop, hitting things on 3's and things hitting them on 4's a bad thing? And you say that you always got your incantations off, ya thats true. Though in eight edition you a problem.
People can dispell 4 incantations at 2k if they have a decent amount of dispell dice. So you get one incantation off, maybe two depending on your opponents rolls.

Also, giving GG WS6 is horrible in every respect of the word, they slaughter anything they run up against. Even setting a prince in a skeleton unit drastically upps their chance of survival. THey are your anvil and making things hit them on 4's is way better than 3's.

Also, the bound spells were cool i cant say anything else, but it doesn't scale well at all. Try playing 3k TK (the old book) with 8'th edition magic. It's not balanced if you roll five dispell dice for your opponent when you yourself have 10 incantations to cast. All which go off.

There is indeed a lot you complain about which i think is just you not liking the book. It wasn't nerfed at all, they got a huge boost! You can acually play TK now instead of having them stand on your shelf collecting dust.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I for one love the fact the the new TK emphasis is on undead constructs and a legion-styled army. My recognition of this emphasis has nothing to do with its competitiveness because that's a ridiculous extrapolation.

These books aren't written in order to make you more successful at tournaments and updates aren't published to benefit your army in any way except in terms of compatibility with the current ruleset and expansion of the miniatures range.

Well, that's an honest answer at least. The primary purpose of transforming the list had little to do with improved play and much to do with sales.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Now, to all you GW cheerleaders out there whose first smug, self-congratulatory reaction is, “Oh, he’s just afraid of change,” my answer to you is, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m all for “change” that is beneficial to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. I resent and oppose “change” that is detrimental to my army, my investment and my enjoyment in playing. The “change” that the new TK army book represents is, in my view, overwhelmingly the latter rather than the former. If nothing else (and there is a lot else), it seems to be of a piece with the apparent GW strategy of marketing its products to 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money. If a rule is too hard for that 9-year-old brat to follow, out with it! If a unit is too complicated for that 9-year-old brat, change it! If a few armies are distinctive and confuse that 9-year-old brat, well, turn ‘em generic and get rid of that distinctiveness!

I loved the way the OP infers that he cannot enjoy wargaming unless he wins games. I especially like the way he turned the idiot phrase 'fanboy' into a personal insult towards anyone who disagrees with him. It's all cool though, because he doesn't afraid of anything.

There is not the slightest suggestion in my post that I "cannot enjoy wargaming unless I win games." I'm sure the new list will manage to win games here and there. It could just as easily have done so while retaining the distinctive features of the army that drew me and others to it in the first place. Change merely for the sake of change is pointless.

BTW: if you're not a GW cheerleader, the comment wasn't meant for you. If you have a non-cheerleader response, let's see it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Malleus wrote:I did debate taking all of your points one by one, but then I realized I'd rather gouge out my eyes with a teaspoon. I suppose I can somewhat relate to your problems with a few things (particularly the impossibility of bringing back character wounds, which is kind of silly if you're correct).

Overall, though, the TK book represents a continuation of a very positive trend in GW book writing IMO. The Beastmen, OnG, and now TK are good, viable, competitive army lists without being the overpowered cheesefest the Skaven book was. On the point about only 8 very expensive magic items, this has been debated before, and will be again I'm sure, but I understand it; it's to diminish the possibility of obnoxious combos like the unkillable dark elf dreadlord, speculum war altar pope, completely invulnerable to everything high elf archmage, tower of world dragon elves, and so on. In general, I support the theory, particularly given the massive list of items (many of which are very useful) available in the BRB.

I'd read some of your posts on this subject before starting this thread. I knew you were generally in favor of the new book.

You and I clearly differ on cutting down on player options and army distinctiveness. I'm against it, you seem not to have a big problem with it. That was what happened in 40K with C:CSM, and it's why I quit playing CSM. In this context, IMO the pendulum has swung way too far in the direction of dumbing-down and genericizing army lists in general, and TK's specifically.

Malleus wrote:
Others have suggested it in this thread, but let me come out and say it: I believe the basic problem here isn't GW or their rule writing, but your attitude. You're free to be disappointed, or even to quit the hobby (though that would be a shame), but just because GW's creative philosophy doesn't happen to precisely line up with what you were hoping for in a new TK book doesn't warrant this kind of fury. Your book hasn't been ruined,* it's just been changed. If those changes are uncongenial to you to the point where you want to quit playing, then you should; this is a hobby, and people should cease doing hobbies when they cease to be fun.

Playing the GW hobby means you're subject to their decisions. I doubt there's anybody reading this who has never been frustrated with any of them. However, I'd suggest that the hour or so you spent writing this post could have been spent figuring out how to mitigate these problems and enjoy the game, or figuring out how expensive it will be to buy that Trollbloods army

I think you've hit on something profound there, that I hadn't fully articulated. Why should I, or any player, having spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars (some of us at least), be put in the position where we have to "mitigate problems" that GW creates?! This is a systemic problem with GW. I suppose one could be grateful that TKs didn't go the way of Squats, but that's pretty weak beer.

Malleus wrote:
*Competitively, this is a solid codex. It will win some tournaments sometimes, but not win every tournament all the time like 7th ed Daemons. It requires a thoughtful, tactical player and a lot of careful maneuvering. Also, the models being released are uniformly wonderful as far as most people I've heard from are concerned.

I may have missed it, but I don't recall ever seeing TK's accused of winning every tournament all the time. If anything, I recall criticism to the contrary. And they do require careful maneuvering, which is now harder, more expensive and less reliable. That was part of my point.

As for the new models, yes, they are fine products. I may even have considered buying one or two.

@Lordofthesloths:
Hate to tell you, but the new TK book is amazing. Your SC who grants hatred/frenzy is awesome and <redacted --Janthkin>CHEAP, Necro Knights are worth their weight in gold, Stalkers <redacted; try "destroy" --Janthkin> Hellcannons with ease (while most things will die before they get to them), skellies are dirt cheap, you have Heavy Cavalry with VANGUARD, chariots that are ridiculous, Kings and Princes raising the WS of any unit they join, and you're complaining? This complaint is really a joke. Read the book again and try it. My friend went to a tournament with a list he and I built together that had a little of everything except scorpions, bone giants and sphinxes. He obliterated the first two opponents and lost to the tournament winner (at 'Ard Boyz) when he only had 3 days to prep with the army at all. Worthless book? I think not.

timetowaste85 wrote:@Lordofthesloths:
Hate to tell you, but the new TK book is amazing. Your SC who grants hatred/frenzy is awesome and <redacted --Janthkin>CHEAP, Necro Knights are worth their weight in gold, Stalkers <redacted --Janthkin> Hellcannons with ease (while most things will die before they get to them), skellies are dirt cheap, you have Heavy Cavalry with VANGUARD, chariots that are ridiculous, Kings and Princes raising the WS of any unit they join, and you're complaining? This complaint is really a joke. Read the book again and try it. My friend went to a tournament with a list he and I built together that had a little of everything except scorpions, bone giants and sphinxes. He obliterated the first two opponents and lost to the tournament winner (at 'Ard Boyz) when he only had 3 days to prep with the army at all. Worthless book? I think not.

He, like many in my area frown on the use of special characters. Teclis especially has soured our views of them, and they are seen as gimmicks and crutches. The "Heavy Cav" that TK has is slightly less survivable than, say, Wild Riders. Which is to say not at all. They hit like Empire State Troops. Goblin Wolf Chariots are cheaper and hit harder, so I can understand ones reticence to appreciate their "buffs."

To the original poster, I do have to disagree with you on a few points.

First, you complained on one or two occasions that the powerlevels of certain bound items had been decreased (in terms of going from a 4 to a 3, for instance.) I am curious, do you know how bound items cast now? Decreasing the power level is actually better, as you need to hit a smaller number and actually need to use your magic dice to cast them.

Second, though there is a loss to the MWBD, I do LIKE the new ability. A poor replacement for your free spells, perhaps, but increasing a unit's WS, in essence getting the Helm of Command on any unit that a Prince or King joins. You questioned about "What if your king isn't tooled for combat?" My answer is that such a question is like asking "What if my bright wizard isn't geared to cast spells?" Is that not the (sole) function of a tomb king?

The magic system needed a little help. With how 8th ed was redone, the TK system was INCREDIBLY overpowered (read: Teclis level.) Perhaps you didn't run a LHP and 2-3 LP, but my regular opponants did. And they got spells off. Regularly. Even if I really tooled for anti magic, they could get off what they wanted, and that is friggin rough given what those spells did (ESPECIALLY the buff to the SSC. I mean, who wants that many hyper accurate templates dropped in their face every turn? Not me, sir. Not me.). Now, simply making TK magic a lore and NOT CHANGING what those spells did would have been enough, IMO. Strong, dangerous, scary, but manageable if you tool for it. And, IMO, it makes it the equal of other lores. No charging on that move spell? I mean really? Holy crap...

Lore of Light I believe lets them fight their long standing fluff Nemeses, the Vampire Counts. This also does very nice things for the army, buff wise, and is a solid Lore.

As far as the scorpions are concerned, they were a might too strong for their cost before. I think lowering them by A wound was sufficient, but I haven't seen the new deployment rule. I do agree that nerfing the deployment rule AND forcing the unit to be deployed in that was was over kill. Leaving you with the option to deploy as normal would have been preferred.

In the end, GW has the EXCESSIVELY annoying tendency to add three fixes to any one problem when any one fix would do. (Strength of Scorpions and magic, is what I'm referring to here.) Most of your problems are understandable and I agree with you. My VC now sit on a shelf collecting dust. Sigh.

timetowaste85 wrote:@Lordofthesloths:
Hate to tell you, but the new TK book is amazing. Your SC who grants hatred/frenzy is awesome and <redacted --Janthkin>CHEAP,

Sure, hatred/frenzy is useful, for one unit. Ramhotep is interesting, as a gimmick. He's also not that cheap, and he takes up Hero space that displaces the extra Liche Priest you will need to compensate for the loss of incantations. And since he randomly gives Master Artisan to one Animated Construct unit, he could very well give it to your Tomb Scorpion that never deploys thanks to EBS.

timetowaste85 wrote:
Necro Knights are worth their weight in gold,

I noted that Necropolis Knights might be worth taking. They also just about cost their weight in gold.

timetowaste85 wrote:
Stalkers <redacted --Janthkin> Hellcannons with ease (while most things will die before they get to them),

Maybe, if they ever show up. EBS makes them unreliable.

timetowaste85 wrote:skellies are dirt cheap,

Yes, they are cheap. I admitted they have gotten some improvements, maybe even net improvements overall.

timewaster85 wrote:you have Heavy Cavalry with VANGUARD,

Again, noted.

timewaster85 wrote:
chariots that are ridiculous,

Chariots that are a lot more expensive. And I like chariots. And I noted that they are probably improved overall.

timetowaste85 wrote:
Kings and Princes raising the WS of any unit they join,

One unit, one time per turn, in one particular set of circumstances. As opposed to the previous version that was useful in multiple circumstances with multiple units. I don't find this in any way an even trade, let alone an upgrade.

timetowaste85 wrote:
and you're complaining? This complaint is really a joke.

No, it's a statement concerning the relative values of what was added and what was removed. In my view, what TK's were deprived of far outweighs what they were given. Your view seems to be to the contrary. I am not convinced by your examples. I don't think the loss of incantations, MWBD! (as opposed to MWBD), ICFB and the previous magic treasury, among other things, come close to being compensated for by the new rules that have been imposed.

timetowaste85 wrote: Read the book again and try it. My friend went to a tournament with a list he and I built together that had a little of everything except scorpions, bone giants and sphinxes. He obliterated the first two opponents and lost to the tournament winner (at 'Ard Boyz) when he only had 3 days to prep with the army at all.

That's a mighty low statistical sample. And again, you seem to be OK with giving up the distinctive features of 7th Edition TK (including the temporary patch from last year). I'm not, and I have yet to be convinced that 8th Edition is preferable.

Um, the Princes and Kings CONFER their WS to their squad-not just once, but all the time (and WS6 Tomb Guard is nothing to scoff at). And chariot units HAD to go up in price for what they do: they went from D3 to D6, and got stronger as you added ranks. They're well deserving of their increased cost. And you're right, it is unfair of me to base their ability off of one friend playing them. But since he's been playing the new book and only lost that one 'Ard Boyz match and won every other game by a landslide...I'd say he's on to something.

I will grant that the decrease in the Magic Treasury of the 8th edition books is a bit of a bummer, but what GW is trying to do is have everyone use the same general list of items (from the rulebook) while giving each army an opportunity to have a bit of personal flavor-just at an increased cost. And yes, I understand Rhamotep (had forgotten his name before) only affects his unit-but this is a common trait of MOST 8th ed characters now. 110pts (I believe, no book in front of me) is a VERY low cost for the bonuses he gives.

I understand it's a bummer for the change to incantations, but because GW changed how bound spells worked, if they kept the same the Tomb Kings would be hurting. I never read the FAQ either: I don't play Tomb Kings and my friend shelved them until the new book came out, so I had no reason to look at it. Plus I was going through a hiatus from fantasy for a while and switched to 40K. I've seen the magic stuff though, and you still get raisings, based on any successful Nehekharan spells-just work a bit differently.

I know I came off kind of angry-sounding before, but really, I do think they deserve another chance. I'm just disappointed at hearing how "underpowered" or "bad" the 8th edition army books are (Imagine how pissed I get when people bash the new O&G book, which I started playing-when I do believe it's perfect), when they are balancing out well and are a lot more fun to play than 7th ed books and I think. My friend and I went over the book with a fine tooth comb and LOVED the changes that were made. Sure, some costs went up, some things changed, magic items went down. But for every negative change there were 2 positives. There is more stuff, and a lot of things seem to be a vast improvement. Last point, I agree you said the Necro Knights might be worth it-I'll give you the heads up that they are: 5 attacks total per model, 3 with poison, 2 with killing blow, plus stomp, generally equals high damage output-they're just flanking units, not straight up fighters. They also have a great armor save. Give them a go, first chance you get and use them in the flank. I promise you won't be disappointed. My friend refuses to play a game without them.

Lord: You're like a politician, so much talking, so little actual content.

When the Tomb-Kings originally came out, 10 years ago. I was there for that, I saw people whine and moan about the book.

"...Heavy cavalry? May as well call it medium-terrible cavalry"

"Cloak of dunes lets you fly, but not charge? No-one will ever take that."

"Overall it's a weak army, that really has no fighting power, and is a hobby-ists army."

Yeah, well 3 years later, everyone knew one guy that played Tomb Kings in their club, and was pissed because that Tomb Kings player consistently, and constantly won.

The vitiriol in your post, simply seems like you're pissing and moaning because you drank too much vinegar this morning.

I think certain aspects of the army need to be re-strategized, to take advantage of strengths, and shore up new weaknesses found in the army. Khemri has never been an army that could be played traditionally.

So our Heirophant can't cast spells without killing himself? Stop casting spells with him then. Except for that one phase where you NEED him to cast, you know the one, right before you're going to be getting into combat...

EBS will put your unit on the board right around 95% of the time before the game is over. Hopefully it's not a complete waste and they don't come on, on turn 6, but it is what it is. You either have to bring lots of redundant EBS to take advantage of the rule, or not depend on what they do. Either is acceptable. Holy Feth! An army that depends on lots of EBS? Wow.. what a concept!

The book is fine

Sell your stuff.

We don't want you anyway.

Go play Daemons, just don't come back whining to us, because someone sat down with HIS book, looked at it and thought of the evil, nasty things he COULD do with his book, instead of whining about the things he can't do with it.

Live gave you lemons dude.. Trouble is, life isn't taking them back. Make lemonade, or quit whining, because i've got my own lemons to deal with, and honestly don't care about yours.

timetowaste85 wrote:Um, the Princes and Kings CONFER their WS to their squad-not just once, but all the time (and WS6 Tomb Guard is nothing to scoff at).

What I meant was, it comes into effect once per round, not once total. And still, it's only useful in one situation, namely close combat. Versatility has gone way down.

timetowaste85 wrote: And chariot units HAD to go up in price for what they do: they went from D3 to D6, and got stronger as you added ranks. They're well deserving of their increased cost.

Again, I agree that chariots do more. But to me, it's like saying a $500,000 Rolls Royce is worth the money for what you get, when I don't have that half mill lying around. Why not have light and heavy chariots? They're basically the same model.

timetowaste85 wrote:
And you're right, it is unfair of me to base their ability off of one friend playing them. But since he's been playing the new book and only lost that one 'Ard Boyz match and won every other game by a landslide...I'd say he's on to something.

He could be, at that. But, it could also be unfamiliarity with the new TK army on the part of his opponents. More data will be needed.

timetowaste85 wrote:
I will grant that the decrease in the Magic Treasury of the 8th edition books is a bit of a bummer, but what GW is trying to do is have everyone use the same general list of items (from the rulebook) while giving each army an opportunity to have a bit of personal flavor-just at an increased cost.

That's what I object to: making every army have to use the same items, with only minor and rare variations. Choice is good. Denial of choice, not so much.

timetowaste85 wrote: And yes, I understand Rhamotep (had forgotten his name before) only affects his unit-but this is a common trait of MOST 8th ed characters now. 110pts (I believe, no book in front of me) is a VERY low cost for the bonuses he gives.

Again, it's not that he isn't useful, it's that you have to use up Hero points and thus have fewer points left for casters.

timetowaste85 wrote:
I understand it's a bummer for the change to incantations, but because GW changed how bound spells worked, if they kept the same the Tomb Kings would be hurting.

TK's had bound spell items after 8th Edition came out, with last year's FAQ/revision, and they worked just fine.

timetowaste85 wrote:
I never read the FAQ either: I don't play Tomb Kings and my friend shelved them until the new book came out, so I had no reason to look at it. Plus I was going through a hiatus from fantasy for a while and switched to 40K. I've seen the magic stuff though, and you still get raisings, based on any successful Nehekharan spells-just work a bit differently.

Again, you can't rely on getting any raisings. You have to get at least one augment spell, then cast it without any of the bad things that I mentioned happening. For all you know, your Liche Priests may not roll any augment spells, in which case the best you can do is to swap out for the signature spell to get one. Versatility is lost again. That's a running theme with this revision.

timetowaste85 wrote:
I know I came off kind of angry-sounding before, but really, I do think they deserve another chance.

I'm sure I did in the OP. The magnitude of my objection is proportional to the extent to which I was actually looking forward to the new book, the length of time I've been waiting, and the time and money I've put into this army in the meantime.

timetowaste85 wrote:
I'm just disappointed at hearing how "underpowered" or "bad" the 8th edition army books are (Imagine how pissed I get when people bash the new O&G book, which I started playing-when I do believe it's perfect), when they are balancing out well and are a lot more fun to play than 7th ed books and I think. My friend and I went over the book with a fine tooth comb and LOVED the changes that were made. Sure, some costs went up, some things changed, magic items went down. But for every negative change there were 2 positives.

That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening.

timetowaste85 wrote: There is more stuff, and a lot of things seem to be a vast improvement. Last point, I agree you said the Necro Knights might be worth it-I'll give you the heads up that they are: 5 attacks total per model, 3 with poison, 2 with killing blow, plus stomp, generally equals high damage output-they're just flanking units, not straight up fighters. They also have a great armor save. Give them a go, first chance you get and use them in the flank. I promise you won't be disappointed. My friend refuses to play a game without them.

Perhaps.

I must agree with the OP on many points. 7th ed. TK were not an easy army to win with, but used properly with a bit of luck they could rule. I tabled a demon army with them once, so I know.
Their magic system was elegant and unique to the army, and will be missed most of all. I don't buy into all this streamlining crap.
On the other hand, Settra is much more useable than before.
The new book was due but I can see why long time TK players are not happy with it.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...

And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.

I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.

neiltj1 wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...

And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.

I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.

Probably the biggest reason I picked TK's to play is because of their play style and their distinctive magic system. If I'd wanted to play generic lores, I would have gone Empire or some Elves or other.

Since you prefer the new magic system, please explain why an unpredictable, unreliable system that exposes your casters to instant death and your entire army to disintegration, is superior to the previous system. As for healing, please explain how the new system works better than the previous system, especially since you can't rely on random generation of even one augment. Also, as I read the stat lines, I must be missing those extra Tomb King and Prince wounds.

And I'm quite sure that a good percentage of the adult customer base doesn't agree with me. That's as may be. I think that quite a few agree with me, though.

neiltj1 wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...

And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.

I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.

I think here is a question someone should have asked way earlier.

Do you have a TK army this edition?

I read through the wall of text and something stuck, have you read the Time of legends books? the ones about nagash? the ones where the Tomb Kings use the Lore of LIGHT to fight Nagash?

"Generic" lores i isn't really what the Lore of Nehekhara is though. Its extremly unic and designed for TK specifically. It has a lot of buff spells and augments which are meant to boost your troops so they become better at what they do.
And yes magic is unreliable, thats just how the cookie crumbles atm. But saying "that exposes your casters to instant death and your entire army to disintegration" is laughable. Yes you have a chance to kill your heirophant...if you roll double sixes....2-4 on misscast result and then you need to roll 3 or less to kill him outright. Otherwise he looses a wound. Ya its a real killer. If your worried about misscast do what you always did with a heirophant, plunk him with an archers unit in the backfield to avoid killing your other troops.

So nobody is bothered by the fact that TK are the slowest army in the game now? Like that makes sense? We're supposed to have the option of having a "fast moving chariot army", but we can't even march. What a sick joke, huh?