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Minsc wrote:the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ???

"When Alexander saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer."

If anything the TK have got more of a plan than they had before Nagash. Back then, they ruled over slave economies with vassal states that were always having territorial disputes. At least now they've got a couple of longer term objectives beyond reaching the point of expansionist hubris:

- Get our treasures back

- Teach Nagash and his hangers-on a lesson

lindsay40k wrote:

Minsc wrote:the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ???

- Get our treasures back

- Teach Nagash and his hangers-on a lesson

you forgot:

- Order a bowl of figs and a glass of wine, forget that you ordered them while they are being found and brought to you, sit and stare at figs and wine for days, long enough for figs to rot, and wine to go vinegary, remember what they are, remember that you can't enjoy them any more, get really really angry, declare war on a country.

Flashman wrote:

Minsc wrote:Unless I missed something, it just made the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ??? Yeah, "fight Nagash" is part of it... but what then?

The same can be said of any evil fantasy / science fiction race. Essentially, you've just pointed out why the good guys always win i.e. to follow most evil plans through to their logical conclusion would be a pretty dour ending to the story. Take some Warhammer/40K/LoTR examples below...

Nagash actually succeeds in turning every living being into his undead slave. Now what?
Tyranids consume every last molecule of biomatter in the universe. Now what?
Khorne kills every last living and daemonic entity in material universe and realm of chaos. Now what?
Sauron covers all the lands in a second darkness and enslaves Middle Earth. Now what?

1a. A few Dwarves, Skaven, and Greenskins have been surviving underground and prepare to rise against him. A horiffic magical backlash disrupts Nagash's control after a few hundred years, allowing Wraiths, Wights, Ghouls and Vampires to break free from his domination, forming armies of their own.
1b. Reset the world to the time of Sigmar.

2. The Tyranids, now consuming themselves, are wiped from the universe, and on a world where foresighted individuals stored their consciousnesses on a vast computer network machines begin stirring to alter matter and change inanimate materials into life forms and repopulate the universe.

3. Khorne rules his world of ash and sorrows from atop his throne of skulls. Then he removes his mask and it was really Tzeentch the entire time. Suckers! Without sentient beings to fuel the warp, Khorne slowly dies off, until, generations later, life evolves back to a point of sentience and rediscovers the ruins of the Old Ones. And even strange, skull shaped relics...

4. The human spirit, slowly simmering in the darkness, is touched by the power of Iluvatar, Eru, the One made manifest through his servant Manwe. Sauron uses his vast army to attempt an invasion of the Undying Lands, where he strives against the combined might of all the Valar, the full population of Elfhome, and even the one recovered Silmaril. Back in Middle Earth, the humans and hobbits and dwarves still living, inspired by Manwe and Orome, begin to fight back against the tyranny of Sauron. They are dispatched, brutally, but their determination inspires others, weakening Sauron's empire from within.

All of this is in keeping with the great some of Iluvatar, proving that even the machinations of Morgoth, the Great Deceiver who tried to pervert the song of Eru to his own whims has been folded into the plan of The One, to create the epic tale of this universe.

So there.

Nagashek wrote:Khorne rules his world of ash and sorrows from atop his throne of skulls. Then he removes his mask and it was really Tzeentch the entire time.

lindsay40k wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Khorne rules his world of ash and sorrows from atop his throne of skulls. Then he removes his mask and it was really Tzeentch the entire time.

Tzeentch say, "O-TAY!!!"

Meanwhile, back at the original thread: I didn't address the new fluff, which I can take or leave, it doesn't make that much of a difference to me when compared to the larger issues. One thing I didn't mention that I'll mention now: the new book doesn't seem to have much in the way of painting advice. Newbies especially could have used some guidance.

After playing TK since day one, taking them to multiple state and national tournaments, I have had to retire them. It's not that you can't build a competitive list (although it's boring and forced), it us just that it isn't the army I signed up for. How they play has just changed too much and I don't enjoy them anymore.

The lore is pretty rubbish, the necrotect and herald were poorly implemented. Some of the new units are interesting, but only at the expense of what made the army different.

Not being able to rapidly held units or characters is greatly upsetting.

No magic banners in core is very limiting. You can do some great stuff with Princes, but that is about the only thing capturing my imagination in the list. Phalanx-tastic!

zemanjaski wrote:After playing TK since day one, taking them to multiple state and national tournaments, I have had to retire them. It's not that you can't build a competitive list (although it's boring and forced), it us just that it isn't the army I signed up for. How they play has just changed too much and I don't enjoy them anymore.

The lore is pretty rubbish, the necrotect and herald were poorly implemented. Some of the new units are interesting, but only at the expense of what made the army different.

Not being able to rapidly held units or characters is greatly upsetting.

No magic banners in core is very limiting. You can do some great stuff with Princes, but that is about the only thing capturing my imagination in the list. Phalanx-tastic!

I'm with you.

One other thing that makes the whole situation so unsatisfactory is that TK is my only WHFB army. So if I retire/sell it, I'm basically out of the game. I don't feel like working up another army, none of the others really appeal to me (except maybe Ogres), and even if I do go with another army, as soon as I finish it, if not before, GW will likely nerf the list with a new book (Ogres!) and I'll be back where I started except now with two armies.

Im just letting the army gather dust (joke intended? who knows?!).

It can sit there with its trophies and think about what it was once capable of (will the jokes stop?).

Seriously, ill probably sulk until im on holidays, then try and make something work. I think its going to be a HUGE unit of skeletons with spears, prince and herald (w/ some sort of banner), then auxilliary to that.

It doesnt seem viable to take multiple blocks anymore, we cant spam now, so a better choice seems to be to drift towards 'eggs in one basket', so that we get the most out of each and every spell.

Scorpions are still pretty good for killing wizards and auxillary. Chariots are good, but hurt by steadfast.

Im just not sure, ill see what I can come up with :(

I'm actually wondering how good a chariot unit will be in 8ed. Practically relying on misfires to avoid being hit by multiple wound template attacks, unlikely to break large units, and no more handbrake turns into flanks.

It'll smash through a mediocre-sized unit of mediocre troops, but then at 55ppm you'd expect nothing less.

Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.

They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.

Any feelings regarding the special character herald?

zemanjaski wrote:Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.

They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.

Any feelings regarding the special character herald?

Let's see: for only twice the price of an ordinary Tomb Herald, you get: +1 WS, +5 ward save, Killing Blow on 5+, Herald of Despair, and Flail of Skulls (worth 45 pts in the old book). And it's two extra wounds for whatever King/Prince it guards. For the price, it seems like a reasonable deal. Is it compensation for the rest of the book (combined with the other new goodies)? You be the judge.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

zemanjaski wrote:Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.

They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.

Any feelings regarding the special character herald?

Let's see: for only twice the price of an ordinary Tomb Herald, you get: +1 WS, +5 ward save, Killing Blow on 5+, Herald of Despair, and Flail of Skulls (worth 45 pts in the old book). And it's two extra wounds for whatever King/Prince it guards. For the price, it seems like a reasonable deal. Is it compensation for the rest of the book (combined with the other new goodies)? You be the judge.

You also get something with only two wounds, a light armour save of 6+ and a poor initiative. I really wouldn't expect him to last very long against anything with a half decent magic weapon. An Empire Captain could take him out, no problem.

Basically we should make the King as killy as possible,
and the Herald as tough as possible.

Thats pretty much the point of the 2?

Flashman wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

zemanjaski wrote:Im looking to use them for taking out heavy auxillary - ogres, dyrads, beastherds - that sort of thing. They can still add a lot of wounds to otherwise protracted combats.

They arent what the used to be, steadfast is a serious pain in the ass for the TK, as well as the nerf to fear.

Any feelings regarding the special character herald?

Let's see: for only twice the price of an ordinary Tomb Herald, you get: +1 WS, +5 ward save, Killing Blow on 5+, Herald of Despair, and Flail of Skulls (worth 45 pts in the old book). And it's two extra wounds for whatever King/Prince it guards. For the price, it seems like a reasonable deal. Is it compensation for the rest of the book (combined with the other new goodies)? You be the judge.

You also get something with only two wounds, a light armour save of 6+ and a poor initiative. I really wouldn't expect him to last very long against anything with a half decent magic weapon. An Empire Captain could take him out, no problem.

I agree with this, Nekaph only stands half a chance if you put him on a chariot, at least then his armour is 4+, but then that's an extra 55 points and I'm willing to bet there are much better things to put those points on.

I've also played quite a few games with my new book and although there are parts of it I like, it just seems less functional than the old book somehow, I can't really explain it. Part of the problem seems to be they've kept pretty much all the old penalties for undead, or made them worse, and haven't really given them the kind of punch that such drawbacks would merit.

I thnk the worst part now is the Hierophant, is there any good reason they kept this aspect of the rules? I mean really. It's not like the book is so cheesy overpowerd it needs a 'Press here to disintegrate army' button, and now that he's a standard wizard he just seems to attract so much more attention than the old Liche Priests did, basically because he's providing the buffs and healing for the whole army at once he suddenly becomes a much more valuable target than a bunch of priests across the board all casting the same weak but effective spells.

Also, I think the dubious "benefits" of causing fear and being unbreakable are too hugely counterbalanced by having poor stats and armour, being unstable, having no march and no stand and shoot. But hey, at least our only artillery piece got more expensive and with half the chances to shoot!

In all likelihood, my Herald will stay on his horse, stay in his cavalry unit, and continue being a behind-their-lines unit delivery system - one that makes lost and killed Scorpions largely a thing of the past. Surround isolated unit, crush it next turn with multiple frontage charges with a BSB involved, advance into enemy flank as the hordes of KB infantry hit home.

i dont quite have the will power to read this entire thread but im not sure if its been mentioned, as far as the whole heirophant miscasting arguement...

i dont beleive tomb kings can complain about hat simply because vampire counts have been dealing wiht it alot longer that they have..

and personally i think the tomb kings ability for magic has become stronger, instead of trying to raise the dead you can just augment that unit and get a little hoorah on the side because you heal them everytime you hit them with an augment spell...
my 2 cents

rocksteadygreeny wrote:i dont quite have the will power to read this entire thread but im not sure if its been mentioned, as far as the whole heirophant miscasting arguement...

i dont beleive tomb kings can complain about hat simply because vampire counts have been dealing wiht it alot longer that they have..

VC's didn't have, as far as I know, an army-specific magic system expropriated from them, like TK's did.

VC's didn't have an army-specific magic system that attracted players to them and was one of the major reasons I and a lot of players chose them, like TK's did.

VC players knew going in what the army's problems were.

rocksteadygreeny wrote:
and personally i think the tomb kings ability for magic has become stronger, instead of trying to raise the dead you can just augment that unit and get a little hoorah on the side because you heal them everytime you hit them with an augment spell...
my 2 cents

Instead of every L(H)P having four incantations that always cast successfully, never miscast and were only subject to dispelling, as well as Tomb Kings/Princes having spell access with the same reliability, they now have a random selection of spells that can't be duplicated (with one exception per lore), have three ways not to go off, one way to not cast any more spells that phase, and one way to wound and/or kill their caster, as well as having Tomb Kings/Princes that are far less versatile. As I've argued above and others have added to, this is not a net gain for TK's IMO.

Beyond that, the whole random spell generation concept IMO is an unattractive feature of the game in general (and again, a big reason I went TK in the first place). It's like playing chess not knowing until you start the game if you're going to play with one queen, three knights or nine pawns.

Well a magic SYSTEM that is army specific i think is a little silly, why dont you take the silver lining on the vloud and say hey you have your own lore, that no one else but tomb kings can use, and no VC didnt have a system but they do have necromancy spells (can becast more than once a turn on hte same unit even)

"players new going into the army waht the problems were" i assume you knew that going into TK that shud your single most important heirophant die, your pooched, just like VC

albeit i will agree with the significantly less worth while tomb kings n princes, that could be a hard blow to deal wiht from going to a useful versitile lord/hero to a piipsquick who is hiny on the battlefeild, i WILL give you that.

and as far as the magic system goes, again it streamlines the game, and you still get your own independance about your lore, and if you are SO worried about not getting the exsact spell you want (unlikely if your running a level 4-rolling a single double lets you pick) then run an extra level 2 and your gaurunteed to get alll but the sig spell.

just because all your mages are no longer lore masters is no reason to have this much of a fuss, yess they are huge changes, some for the better others for the worse, take whats giving swallow the kick in the teeth and ramble on, if you go at it with a positive attitude, and adapt to your new book and style of play who knows you might find out you like it more than the last!

cheers

Mike

Did VC get a new book in 7th and were one of the best armies?

Did TK get a new book in 7th?

Does the fact that VC who haven't had an 8th Ed update yet suffer from General-dependence not make it a bad rule that should have been dropped, especially with the new increased miscast risk in 8th?