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that is a fair point, but i'm used to slow.. being a dwarf player lol, but then, Dwarfs are not totally unbreakable, swings and roundabouts

LordOfTheSloths wrote:

neiltj1 wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:...That's where we mostly disagree. IMO removal of incantations, MWBD, EBS and loss of magic items, not to mention not being able to heal characters, overwhelm all the positives. If you can explain why I'm wrong, I'm listening...

And thats why it will be a hard sell for you. For others the negatives do not outweigh the positives. The one thing I found ironic is that many of the "negatives" you stated I consider positives. I for one think the new MWBD is perhaps the best rule in the new book. My biggest complaint about it is that Khalida did not get it. I love the new magic, and the elegance of how it heals my units. Princes and Kings have an extra wound.

I understand that you may not like the new book, but dont think that all of the "adult customer base" agree with you. I suggest you look around and see if another army has a playstyle more suited to your wants.

Probably the biggest reason I picked TK's to play is because of their play style and their distinctive magic system. If I'd wanted to play generic lores, I would have gone Empire or some Elves or other.

Since you prefer the new magic system, please explain why an unpredictable, unreliable system that exposes your casters to instant death and your entire army to disintegration, is superior to the previous system. As for healing, please explain how the new system works better than the previous system, especially since you can't rely on random generation of even one augment. Also, as I read the stat lines, I must be missing those extra Tomb King and Prince wounds.

And I'm quite sure that a good percentage of the adult customer base doesn't agree with me. That's as may be. I think that quite a few agree with me, though.

the previous tk book only worked in 8th by overloading your opponent with incantations and then using spell dice on bound items. it was BROKEN my normal army threw 19+ dice at my opponent (average roll of 7 magic dice) even then this is how it would play...

hmm. spam summoning spell with maybe an urgency here and there. hurray for boredom

new magic goes cast desert winds to move up table. oh neat I healed some of your shooting damage. smiting to get extra shots.. nifty healed more damage. Dessication, this spell is made of win, oh look all my attacks wound you on 3+ (assuming t3). Killing blow is awesome because heavy armor was a weakness of the old book. Plus lore of light has great buffs as well.
I usually take a lvl4 and lvl 2 in my magic heavy armies so getting the spells I want is not an issue. Their magic is still distinctive just the mechanic is the same as all the others. Plus the old sytem was very open to abuse, and by using a universal mechanic it closes that opening.

The writing was on the Wall. There was no way that Tk magic was going to remain as it was in the 8th style magic phase. Well not and be remotely balanced. So I have to ask do you like 8th ed more than 7th?

(sorry I was not clear on character wounds. I was not saying that they had changed only that I love how our combat characters have more wounds than equivalent characters in other armies).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UberhAxTHC wrote:So nobody is bothered by the fact that TK are the slowest army in the game now? Like that makes sense? We're supposed to have the option of having a "fast moving chariot army", but we can't even march. What a sick joke, huh?

chariots cant march anyway.

<redacted; let's leave the personal attacks out, shall we? --Janthkin> The new book is great, just what the TK needed. The old magic system was weak and tedious and basically consisted of casting the same spells in the same order all game every game. For an army that relies on magic, our magic phase was second-most boring, being beaten out only by a no-anvil dwarf list. None of our units were lost, all of them were buffed, and we got lots of cool new stuff. This book is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the crappy chaos codex, which I am familiar with as a Word Bearers fan: rather than almost no options, most of which are weak, and no way to play to a theme while still having a competitive list, this book gives me loads of options, and plenty of themes to choose from while still keeping a fairly strong list. This book is great, just like the OnG book, and I hope all the other 8th ed books live up to it. <redacted --Janthkin>

neiltj1 wrote:

*snip*

the previous tk book only worked in 8th by overloading your opponent with incantations and then using spell dice on bound items. it was BROKEN my normal army threw 19+ dice at my opponent (average roll of 7 magic dice) even then this is how it would play...

hmm. spam summoning spell with maybe an urgency here and there. hurray for boredom

I didn't find it boring. I found it in character with the ancient and relentless nature of the army. Again, I liked that aspect of the army.

neiltj1 wrote:

new magic goes cast desert winds to move up table. oh neat I healed some of your shooting damage. smiting to get extra shots.. nifty healed more damage. Dessication, this spell is made of win, oh look all my attacks wound you on 3+ (assuming t3).

Miscast. Not Enough Power. Broken Concentration. And even if they manage to go off, only one shot from one caster. Again, how is unreliability better than reliability?

neiltj1 wrote: Killing blow is awesome because heavy armor was a weakness of the old book.

You're right.

neiltj1 wrote: Plus lore of light has great buffs as well.

Again, if you're lucky enough to roll them.

neiltj1 wrote:
I usually take a lvl4 and lvl 2 in my magic heavy armies so getting the spells I want is not an issue.

If you want to be sure of getting Lore of Light spells and also Nehekhara Lore spells, now you need four casters just to ensure getting one copy of each.

neiltj1 wrote: Their magic is still distinctive just the mechanic is the same as all the others. Plus the old sytem was very open to abuse, and by using a universal mechanic it closes that opening.

It's distinctive only to the extent that the specific spell language and effects are distinctive. As for the old system being very open to abuse, if that were so, why weren't more players running TK to take advantage of that possibility? IMO there may have been some things that could be abused, but there must have been a way to deal with them other than deleting the entire system.

neitltj1 wrote:The writing was on the Wall. There was no way that Tk magic was going to remain as it was in the 8th style magic phase. Well not and be remotely balanced. So I have to ask do you like 8th ed more than 7th?

No doubt, the writing was on the wall. GW had made up its mind to rewrite the system regardless of what its player base thought about it, like they do with every other army in both systems (such as my 40K World Eaters). I don't see the FAQ/revision from last year as being that problematic, and that could have been the baseline from wich to further improve the old system.

I'm not sure about 8th vs 7th. I like a lot of 8th. What I don't like is removing distinctiveness and player options.


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<redacted; two wrongs do not make a right --Janthkin>

the color purple wrote: The new book is great, just what the TK needed. The old magic system was weak and tedious and basically consisted of casting the same spells in the same order all game every game. For an army that relies on magic, our magic phase was second-most boring, being beaten out only by a no-anvil dwarf list.

You found it "boring," I didn't. We differ.

the color purple wrote:None of our units were lost, all of them were buffed, and we got lots of cool new stuff.

Some of them were buffed. We got some new units. We lost most magic items. And almost every advantage came at high cost. As I discussed in considerable detail, and as you don't seem to have a response to other than "Nah-AHH!"

the color purple wrote:
This book is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the crappy chaos codex, which I am familiar with as a Word Bearers fan: rather than almost no options, most of which are weak, and no way to play to a theme while still having a competitive list, this book gives me loads of options, and plenty of themes to choose from while still keeping a fairly strong list. This book is great, just like the OnG book, and I hope all the other 8th ed books live up to it.

Of course there are new options and themes. You think the pros outweigh the cons. I don't. And my C:CSM analogy remains valid. Both revisions removed the possibility to play armies I had spent massive time and money on, for one reason or another, without providing satisfactory (to me) replacements.

<redacted --Janthkin>

I'm... a fanboy? LordOfTheSloths, let's quit the personal attacks here.

EDIT: post a TK list you ran in the 6th ed book that cannot be run legally with the new one

the color purple wrote:I'm... a fanboy? LordOfTheSloths, let's quit the personal attacks here.

Is that unintentional irony, or do accusations of stupidity constitute something other than personal attacks?

the color purple wrote:
EDIT: post a TK list you ran in the 6th ed book that cannot be run legally with the new one

The issue isn't whether a previous TK list can't be "run legally," but whether the current rules improve that list or not. I've already discussed why I think the current version is not an overall improvement.

"Both revisions removed the possibility to play armies I had spent massive time and money on, for one reason or another, without providing satisfactory (to me) replacements."<redacted --Janthkin>

In what way does the current Tomb Kings book remove the possibility to play models from your current TK collection? It is literally THE SAME ARMY with changed magic, cheaper units, and new stuff. Which you could see if you had both halves of your brain.

the color purple wrote:"Both revisions removed the possibility to play armies I had spent massive time and money on, for one reason or another, without providing satisfactory (to me) replacements."<redacted --Janthkin>

In what way does the current Tomb Kings book remove the possibility to play models from your current TK collection? It is literally THE SAME ARMY with changed magic, cheaper units, and new stuff. Which you could see if you had both halves of your brain.

The armies in their previous forms, as I developed them, and which motivated me to select them in the first place, are now out, and I find their replacements unsatisfactory. As you would have realized had you thought about it. <redacted --Janthkin>

It is not "the same army," any more than Mandarin and Cantonese are the same language just because they use the same characters. Again, you like the new rules, I don't.

I've been a TK player since several years before they had an army book of their own. I've seen them calve away from homogenous Undead, I've seen them go from having unstoppable scrolls to having autocast Incantations to having a set of spell lists. I've felt awkward at how easy it was to win game after game by shotgunning through flank or rear charges with Incantation/MWBD spam, so much so that I moved to Night Goblins for a more challenging army to play with.

I'm pretty much happy with the new book, on balance.

Having the lore of Light makes perfect sense for a desert people who absolutely despise Nagash and his long-fanged hangers-on and want nothing more than to destroy each and every one of them.

The new rules for coming out of the ground seem interesting. The old rules made it far to easy to wipe out support units. Combine charging deepstrikers with the old Casket 'smart bomb', and it seemed that every small unit and artillery piece had a very short eggtimer. And it's handy to synergy this with the banner of coming from below, in a way which massively reduces damage done by the Misfire dice.

I'm not too happy about characters being immune to my own heal spells, but no the other hand one can now potentially head a Chariot unit four times in a phase, with more wounds recovered on each heal. That's going to be nasty.

In a new environment in which magic is basically a WMD, I can see an argument to give a high-risk power boosting item to someone other than my Heirophant. If shotgunning through a bubble hex or augment spell wins the game, who cares if a lesser priest has to spend a few centuries coalescing?

TK are not a big selling army and will likely always be one of the most infrequently undated armies. Whilst it would be nice to be at the cutting edge of the power creep arms race, if it's a choice between that followed by eight years of being throat-stamped by every other army with a more recent book, or being one of the first to receive this toning-down of magic combos and removal of win buttons and thus be viable for longer, I hope we've got the latter.

If anything, my only massive gripe is Skeletons becoming cheaper and yet we have the same old models for the same amount of money.

lindsay40k wrote:

If anything, my only massive gripe is Skeletons becoming cheaper and yet we have the same old models for the same amount of money.

Sorry to break my trolling character, but while I thought this at first, it is a whole lot better than what happened to my Orcs-the same old models for twice the price.

<redacted --Janthkin>

Face it, some people are pissed off at the new TK. The biggest, worst thing they did was make it so that our characters can't be healed. Explain this one to me, in a REASONABLE argument, using REAL points, so that at least you did one thing right.

How does it make sense in game?
Last edition's Tomb Kings weren't overpowered. Not even close. They could use Spear of Antarhak on top of the healing spell. There was never a problem with this. Never.

How does it make sense in the fluff?
This is where it gets out of hand. Why can't TK characters be healed in the fluff? You're telling me you can reanimate zombies, skeletons, statues, undead constructs, and basically anything you want with magic. Even humans and elves can use the lore of life to heal themselves. So using a fluff reason, please, give me ONE good reason as to why TK shouldn't be allowed to heal our characters.

I won't hold my breath.

<redacted --Janthkin>

Seriouspost: I don't really see the issue, fluffwise. The TK characters are still around via an entirely different form of magic than that which animates their troops, it's logical to me that the magic necessary to bring back destroyed skeletons or repair constructs is an entirely different set of stuff from the magic necessary to heal characters (who are either fully sentient flesh corpses animated by Nagash's curse, or immortal, dessicated but still perfectly alive liche priests.) Healing characters requires magically stitching the wounds of sentient, "living" things, healing troops/constructs requires magically reanimating broken junk. Note that Life's Regrowth spell's fluff bit specifically indicates that it is closing wounds, mending bones, and whatnot. TK don't use that spell because 1. The don't use life magic in any form and 2. because it heals living things back to their natural state. It's debatable whether such a spell would even affect TK characters.

Basically, TK characters and TK troops are animated via two different forms of magic (well, three, since Priests are unique). Standing skellies back up or sticking the parts back into an Ushabti is a fairly simple spell that a Priest can do in battle, reawakening a Tomb King or whoever is a much more involved and difficult process that needs to be undertaken (rofl) after the battle has ended, and stitching the wounds of an already awoken and sentient character is not something TK magic does. Why don't you ask why we can't buff our units to larger sizes or raise whole new ones, like VC do. It just isn't what Khemrian magic is about.

<redacted --Janthkin>

lindsay40k wrote:I've been a TK player since several years before they had an army book of their own. I've seen them calve away from homogenous Undead, I've seen them go from having unstoppable scrolls to having autocast Incantations to having a set of spell lists. I've felt awkward at how easy it was to win game after game by shotgunning through flank or rear charges with Incantation/MWBD spam, so much so that I moved to Night Goblins for a more challenging army to play with.

I'm pretty much happy with the new book, on balance.

Having the lore of Light makes perfect sense for a desert people who absolutely despise Nagash and his long-fanged hangers-on and want nothing more than to destroy each and every one of them.

That actually makes sense. I suppose TK's would want to find the best ways to kill their most hated enemies, and if it works on other armies as well, or even helps their own units, so much the better.

lindsay40k wrote:
The new rules for coming out of the ground seem interesting. The old rules made it far to easy to wipe out support units. Combine charging deepstrikers with the old Casket 'smart bomb', and it seemed that every small unit and artillery piece had a very short eggtimer. And it's handy to synergy this with the banner of coming from below, in a way which massively reduces damage done by the Misfire dice.

But why do you prefer EBS to the old ICFB? Why do you find it better for your army? And I mean for you, not the overall game or other players' armies or GW sales.

lindsay40k wrote:
I'm not too happy about characters being immune to my own heal spells, but no the other hand one can now potentially head a Chariot unit four times in a phase, with more wounds recovered on each heal. That's going to be nasty.

There's that word "potential" again. We're being deprived of sure good results for potential good results combined with potential really bad results.

lindsay40k wrote:
In a new environment in which magic is basically a WMD, I can see an argument to give a high-risk power boosting item to someone other than my Heirophant. If shotgunning through a bubble hex or augment spell wins the game, who cares if a lesser priest has to spend a few centuries coalescing?

That's probably making the best of it, I agree.

lindsay40k wrote:TK are not a big selling army and will likely always be one of the most infrequently undated armies. Whilst it would be nice to be at the cutting edge of the power creep arms race, if it's a choice between that followed by eight years of being throat-stamped by every other army with a more recent book, or being one of the first to receive this toning-down of magic combos and removal of win buttons and thus be viable for longer, I hope we've got the latter.

That's positive spin I guess.

lindsay40k wrote:If anything, my only massive gripe is Skeletons becoming cheaper and yet we have the same old models for the same amount of money.

I don't mind the same old models. But we're already paying more for the same old models!


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UberhAxTHC wrote:So nobody is bothered by the fact that TK are the slowest army in the game now? Like that makes sense? We're supposed to have the option of having a "fast moving chariot army", but we can't even march. What a sick joke, huh?

Uber, what do you think of EBS and the revised MWBD?

<redacted --Janthkin>

What I think about EBTS...I think the best way to explain it, is to describe my first thoughts on seeing it, and MWBD.
For EBTS:
Holy flying nerf batman! We can't charge the turn we pop up anymore? And that misfire chart...what? Are you serious? Reclaimed by the sands? That's awful!
My final thought on EBTS: Omg it's <redacted; don't obfuscate obscenities --Janthkin> deep strike in fantasy, but WORSE. And even Deepstrike is hella unreliable...

When I first heard about the new MWBD, I was like, what's that? TK give their weapon skill to the unit they join? That's awesome!!
Then after a long, hard minute, I realized I <was disappointed>.
Before, I had this awesome king, who used his sheer force of will to command his warriors to march faster!! or fight harder!! I always imagined him screaming these things with his long mummyface as his will indeed was done.
Now, I'm stuck with some ability that doesn't even have a fluff explanation to it. My Will Be Done. No exclamation point. For good reason. It's not nearly as exciting. I just have to come up with my own reason for how it works, and then it's always really lame, like the Skeletons around him are inspired so they fight harder...except they're dead...so then I'm like, I guess he has a magic aura or something, I dunno...
<redacted --Janthkin>

<redacted --Janthkin>

The mods may not have the time to read and sort through your posts, but I DO. <don't bet on that>

Now get back to discussing TK tactics so we can all improve. Agreed?
<excellent idea>

UberhAxTHC wrote:"you really don't you apparently were under the impression that 6th ed TK chariots were marching about the place"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

You keep proving my point...you would made a terrible lawyer.

FYI, I've never used a chariot, and neither has anyone I've ever played against. We all pretty much agree they're crap. So I didn't know that chariots couldn't march...big deal. How's that on topic again?

Let me preface by saying I am not sure if this was a response to me. So if it was not please disregard the following. I realize that you may be having issues with others in this thread, I have been keeping my responses respectful please do me the same courtesy. Again not sure that was directed at me, but my comment is not a strawman as you used the example of having a "fast moving chariot army" followed by a comment about marching. I did not address the rest of your quote because I did not agree with its basic premise that we are now so much slower as opposed to how it was before (exception being that we cant use magic to charge anymore)

LordoftheSloths wrote:Miscast. Not Enough Power. Broken Concentration. And even if they manage to go off, only one shot from one caster. Again, how is unreliability better than reliability?

because I feel that the spells of the new lore are more powerful and I am willing to gamble on a more powerful outcome. However I understand and respect your position that you have a preference for reliability. on a side note I really like lore of nehekhara so I plan on having both my LHP and LP take nehekhara. also considering converting up a heirotitan to make it harder for my opponent to dispell.

On a side not (because I am curious) what are your plans? Are you going to try to keep playing your TKs or are you completely done? I only hope that you stay with them awhile to give them a full shakedown because players that are passionate about their armies are a good thing. My reason for asking is that I played Protectorate of Menoth when WM came out because my friends had taken the other factions. So I played them and really HATED them. So much so that I quit playing WM for over a year. Then I wanted to get back into WM, but I only had that one faction so prepared my self to slog through playing them, now they are my favorite faction and I really enjoy playing them.

<thread isolated -- I suggest everyone chill during this downtime>

edit: <okay, there was a LOT of pruning necessary in this thread; I'm going to reopen it, conditional upon the good behavior of the participants. If I have to come back here, it will be MY will that is done.>

Lordofsloths, when half of the models in your army suddenly become useless, not so that you don't want to use them, but so you CAN'T use them, us Chaos players will care.....

I find GW like russian roulette

Part(s) of armies has to take the bullet (of change)

Whether this is good or bad, well thats all personal opinion

LordOfTheSloths, I composed a reply and it unfortunately got eaten by the ether on account of the thread being temp locked before I submitted it. I'll repost at some point.

UberhAxTHC wrote:
TK players have plenty to be pissed about with this new army book. It's not because GW didn't make TK overpowered. That's not why TK players are complaining. It's because TK players waiting so long for a new book, all the while doing their best with the weak 7th army rules they had, constantly getting raped because they were in need of an update more than any other army, and then when that update finally comes out, it actually makes the weakest army in the game EVEN WEAKER.

Uber, that is exactly what I had in mind. My dissatisfaction with the new TK book (sounds like yours too, and others) is proportional to how much I had actually looked forward to a new book, the length of time I'd been waiting, and the inadaquacy IMO of the product.

Question: what are you going to do?


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BlackDow wrote:Your telling me MWBD is bad...really? How is having your skeletons, your core tropps for 4pts a pop, hitting things on 3's and things hitting them on 4's a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing in itself. IMO it's nowhere near as useful as the previous rule, not by itself and certainly not taken in combination with the other revisions. That's my point.

BlackDow wrote:And you say that you always got your incantations off, ya thats true. Though in eight edition you a problem.
People can dispell 4 incantations at 2k if they have a decent amount of dispell dice. So you get one incantation off, maybe two depending on your opponents rolls.

. . . .

Also, the bound spells were cool i cant say anything else, but it doesn't scale well at all. Try playing 3k TK (the old book) with 8'th edition magic. It's not balanced if you roll five dispell dice for your opponent when you yourself have 10 incantations to cast. All which go off.

So, in 8th Edition TK had a problem getting off their incantations, except when they didn't?

I submit that there must have been ways to reconcile incantations with 8th Edition if GW had bothered to look for them. They clearly never had any intention of doing so.

BlackDow wrote:There is indeed a lot you complain about which i think is just you not liking the book. It wasn't nerfed at all, they got a huge boost! You can acually play TK now instead of having them stand on your shelf collecting dust.

Not "just" disliking the book. Disliking it for reasons. You may disagree with the reasons. That's fine.

Those of you who have decided their army sucks too badly to continue playing may PM me for my address so at you can remove these sources of such horrible nerd rage from your abodes.

Nagashek wrote:
He, like many in my area frown on the use of special characters. Teclis especially has soured our views of them, and they are seen as gimmicks and crutches. The "Heavy Cav" that TK has is slightly less survivable than, say, Wild Riders. Which is to say not at all. They hit like Empire State Troops. Goblin Wolf Chariots are cheaper and hit harder, so I can understand ones reticence to appreciate their "buffs."

Spot on.

Nagashek wrote:Second, though there is a loss to the MWBD, I do LIKE the new ability. A poor replacement for your free spells, perhaps, but increasing a unit's WS, in essence getting the Helm of Command on any unit that a Prince or King joins. You questioned about "What if your king isn't tooled for combat?" My answer is that such a question is like asking "What if my bright wizard isn't geared to cast spells?" Is that not the (sole) function of a tomb king?

Not necessarily. He could be a general who directs the rest of the army, making sure other units move to the right place at the right time and get the other benefits of the previous MWBD! instead of being limited to the new MWBD.

Nagashek wrote:The magic system needed a little help. With how 8th ed was redone, the TK system was INCREDIBLY overpowered (read: Teclis level.) Perhaps you didn't run a LHP and 2-3 LP, but my regular opponants did. And they got spells off. Regularly. Even if I really tooled for anti magic, they could get off what they wanted, and that is friggin rough given what those spells did (ESPECIALLY the buff to the SSC. I mean, who wants that many hyper accurate templates dropped in their face every turn? Not me, sir. Not me.).

Seems to me that now you just about have to run that many L(H)P's. And sure they got their spells off regularly. That was the whole point of the system. Others have noted that TK's could actually have more trouble now getting incantations to go off, due to more dispel dice the opponent may now have. As for the SSC, why not modify the incantation so that it doesn't apply to stone throwers, if you think it was otherwise overpowered?

Nagashek wrote: Lore of Light I believe lets them fight their long standing fluff Nemeses, the Vampire Counts. This also does very nice things for the army, buff wise, and is a solid Lore.

That makes sense.

Nagashek wrote:As far as the scorpions are concerned, they were a might too strong for their cost before. I think lowering them by A wound was sufficient, but I haven't seen the new deployment rule. I do agree that nerfing the deployment rule AND forcing the unit to be deployed in that was was over kill. Leaving you with the option to deploy as normal would have been preferred.

If they had only dropped the number of wounds on TS's, I'd agree. Overall I think EBS is as I described it, <redacted -- do NOT use obfuscation to try and bypass the language filter. --Janthkin>

Nagashek wrote:In the end, GW has the EXCESSIVELY annoying tendency to add three fixes to any one problem when any one fix would do. (Strength of Scorpions and magic, is what I'm referring to here.) Most of your problems are understandable and I agree with you. My VC now sit on a shelf collecting dust. Sigh.

Have you decided what you're going to do now?




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Loki_TBC wrote:Those of you who have decided their army sucks too badly to continue playing may PM me for my address so at you can remove these sources of such horrible nerd rage from your abodes.

What a generous offer. Now, do you have anything else constructive to contribute?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lindsay40k wrote:LordOfTheSloths, I composed a reply and it unfortunately got eaten by the ether on account of the thread being temp locked before I submitted it. I'll repost at some point.

Looking forward to seeing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nagashek wrote:
First, you complained on one or two occasions that the powerlevels of certain bound items had been decreased (in terms of going from a 4 to a 3, for instance.) I am curious, do you know how bound items cast now? Decreasing the power level is actually better, as you need to hit a smaller number and actually need to use your magic dice to cast them.

I overlooked this in my previous reply.

I don't think I commented either way on the changes in bound item power levels. Enkhil's Kanopi went from 4 to 3, so that would make it easier to use. But the Standard went from 3 to 5, which makes it significantly harder to use. That, on top of the huge cost increase.

hey LordOfTheSloths good to see the thread back open.

Have you given thought to what kind of list you might use if you use the new book? I really like the 4pt skellys and since I like masses of troops, I am thinking of using 2+ big blocks of skellys and several blocks of bowmen backing them up. I think I want to also try the heirotitan to help power through some spells, and they can help a block of skellys by thunderstomping enemy troops.(and try to use bound death spell to kill enemy bsbs)

I had actually been working on a bunch of skellies when the new book came out.

I really don't know. I'm still thinking if it's worth the additional investment of time and money. But your suggestion seems like a good place to start. Maybe I'll try something way outside the envelope, like a block of Ushabtis + Ramhotep.

Okay. Soo...

With regard to ICFB compared to EBS. ICFB felt overpowered. Deepstriking and charging on the same turn, at the cost of announcing your dropzone? It was horrific. Two or three fairly modest units could put a solid eggtimer on an artillery base; when they arrived, they would charge a cannon without fear of taking a shot in return, wipe it out, overrun into the next war machine, and slaughter everything. Even one single scorpion would affect the game way more than its price warranted, by forcing an entire gunline to run away from its dropzone. It needed toning down.

EBS seems interesting. Note that I've not said I prefer it, I need more play. It seems to replace several similar rules for the same thing on different units ('natural' diggers and hidden legion skellies) with one rule for the same thing, which is good. It brings about synergy with that banner, and since I happen to favour a horsemen unit with BSB using this sort of thing to surround a unit that thought itself safe, the change does not worry me. We've lost a win button, and gained fewer mishaps.

Re easily forced incantations versus less reliable spells. It's swings and roundabouts. Healing spell and moving spell being combined into a bubble is very powerful, even if we lose the win button of magic phase flank charging chariots.

Re MWBD. We're in 8ed, where a spearmen horde gets 40-odd attacks. Making those hit on a 3+ is going to hurt. Our 'hit them more' augment now affects spearmen |(didn't before), and being distinct from MWBD means it can stack with it. Along with giving them Killing Blow. It's not far-fetched to see cheap skellies causing more damage than Chaos Warriors. We seem to be becoming the Tyranids of WFB; lots of buffing and spawning to keep up the pressure.

Re changes in magic items. These seem entirely in line with the O&G book, and we can expect the same for everybody else. Won't be long before everybody's in the same boat. Being a Night Goblin stalwart, I'm glad to have an army that's got some units with access to some magic banners that the graverobbers haven't had away with.

I agree with all the points the OP has and when i first read the book I immediately put my Tomb Kings army on E-bay. What many people that didn't play Tomb Kings aren't understanding is that players like myself and the OP played TK not because they were broken, or easy to win with, or were great for tournaments, but because the feel of the army and the lore was enjoyable. When something that you enjoy for a number of years gets changed to the point that you no longer enjoy it, you get angry. Angry for the time and effort put into your army that now doesn't please you. Angry at the people that reply to your unhappiness with insults and accusations of "whining". But most importantly, angry at ourselves for getting this attached to little metal and plastic models that end up making us unhappy.

As for the Gw trend of messing up armies for the old vets of them, I am used to it. They made my fun Chaos fantasy army totally unplayable when they released the Deamons books, they made my Chaos 40k army unfun with the new codex, and then they messed up my fun Tomb Kings. I am dreading the day they update the Dwarfs as that may be the day I finally stop playing anything GW related.

lindsay40k wrote:Okay. Soo...

With regard to ICFB compared to EBS. ICFB felt overpowered. Deepstriking and charging on the same turn, at the cost of announcing your dropzone? It was horrific. Two or three fairly modest units could put a solid eggtimer on an artillery base; when they arrived, they would charge a cannon without fear of taking a shot in return, wipe it out, overrun into the next war machine, and slaughter everything. Even one single scorpion would affect the game way more than its price warranted, by forcing an entire gunline to run away from its dropzone. It needed toning down.

Sure, ICFB was powerful. It could also be compensated for to some extent, as you recognize, since you knew where the marker was and could move away from it, or at least prepare for the unit's arrival. In isolation, ICFB was definitely powerful, but it was one rule in the context of the overall TK list with all its other advantages and limitations.

BTW: why would you prefer a weakened rule for your own army? I can see opponents not liking it, but a TK player?

lindsay40k wrote:
EBS seems interesting. Note that I've not said I prefer it, I need more play. It seems to replace several similar rules for the same thing on different units ('natural' diggers and hidden legion skellies) with one rule for the same thing, which is good. It brings about synergy with that banner, and since I happen to favour a horsemen unit with BSB using this sort of thing to surround a unit that thought itself safe, the change does not worry me. We've lost a win button, and gained fewer mishaps.

The previous Banner also allowed horsemen to be hidden. And while the new rule may result in marginally fewer mishaps (3-4 doesn't wipe out the unit, but you still have to roll to see if the unit comes into play and you can easily flub those rolls), IMO that is an inadequate recompense for losing charging and being subject to EBS.

lindsay40k wrote:Re easily forced incantations versus less reliable spells. It's swings and roundabouts. Healing spell and moving spell being combined into a bubble is very powerful, even if we lose the win button of magic phase flank charging chariots.

You can make that argument. I just don't see it as better than, or even as good as, the previous rule. And don't forget that none of the Nehekhara augments are that easy to cast, especially for W1's and W2's who pretty much have to roll two or more dice and thus risk miscast (7.4% miscast when rolling 3 dice, 9% when rolling 4 dice), plus Not Enough Power and Broken Concentration (haven't done the mathhammer on these yet).

lindsay40k wrote:
Re MWBD. We're in 8ed, where a spearmen horde gets 40-odd attacks. Making those hit on a 3+ is going to hurt. Our 'hit them more' augment now affects spearmen |(didn't before), and being distinct from MWBD means it can stack with it. Along with giving them Killing Blow. It's not far-fetched to see cheap skellies causing more damage than Chaos Warriors. We seem to be becoming the Tyranids of WFB; lots of buffing and spawning to keep up the pressure.

Yes, MWBD is useful, but in far fewer circumstances than MWBD! was. And since TK's probably will have a lot fewer early charges, it probably won't be useful for one or more turns. So, one or more turns of no use at all, then use only in close combat. I have trouble seeing this as anything but a nerf.

lindsay40k wrote:Re changes in magic items. These seem entirely in line with the O&G book, and we can expect the same for everybody else. Won't be long before everybody's in the same boat.

That reminds me of what my father used to tell me, about how, just because everyone is jumping off a bridge, that doesn't mean you have to jump too. It was bad for O&G and it's bad for TK's and everyone else.

lindsay40k wrote: Being a Night Goblin stalwart, I'm glad to have an army that's got some units with access to some magic banners that the graverobbers haven't had away with.

I suppose there's that.

My main contention remains: taken as a whole, the TK revision IMO is not only not an upgrade, it's a step backward. It's now a matter of how to react to it.

Why would I prefer a weakened rule for my army? Because it was getting boring, winning 90% of games I played, having what felt like two 'win buttons' in the form of ICFB Scorpions guaranteeing kills on artillery and forced flank or rear charges guaranteeing the breaking of any line unit. This is why I switched from TK to Night Goblins - I wanted an army that'd be a challenge to play. Whilst tournament stats might not agree, I found that the army I took along to friendly games was horrifically powerful. It was satisfying for a while, but then it became tiresome, being able to immediately punish the first mistake my opponent made and then be virtually guaranteed a win. Even if they formed a solid castle deployment, I'd have so many units appearing inside and charging on the same turn that I'd make a hole in the most determined wall.

RE magic items. Be honest, a large amount of army-specific items were duplicates of the weapon of +2 strength or the gem of 4+ ward or suchlike, or else pretty useless stuff that really didn't matter in the midst of a six-unit brawl. Whereas in 7ed we had a short list of generic items and a big list of 'our' items, we now have an absolute stack of generic items and a short list of 'our' items. In a couple of years, it seems a given that only Skaven will be on the old army book standard. We're the second army that's been thrown int he deep end of the new standard.

RE MWBD/!. The thing to bear in mind here is that this is actually the rule that Mummy Lords had when taking the Tomb King's Crown item in WHA: Undead. With our previous TK book, they became in effect low level wizards and contributed to the army's IMO overpowered magic phase. In this book, they've been returned to having their previous ability. Good thing? Bad thing? For me, it's 'interesting thing', and one I'll enjoy putting to the test when setting my minions upon the filthy Nagash-lovers.

All in all, it feels like TK are an army that'll be a challenge to play with and not one that immediately destroys the enemy the moment they make one mistake. I'm more inclined to field them now than I was a year or two ago.

Units fulfilling what their role made them to be is not over powered.

Making things random for TK is not a way for to balance them , they are not Skaven or Goblins.

I felt there are better ways to "nerf" TK