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LordOfTheSloths wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there were NO TK players who went around saying, "Dang, I sure wish I had a new army book that's simply in line with 8th!"

Funny, I don't know a single TK player who didn't say that.

The TK book is tremendously improved from the previous one. I'll just focus on magic for now.

TK magic in the previous book was terrible. All your opponent had to do was glance through your book and know what to stop.

-D6 S4 hits? lolz, bring on you flameless fireball. No need to dispell.
-Move/charge in the magic phase? Bring your crappy skellies on. Might stop it if chariots are going to charge, but even then they only have a few impact hits. Usually no need to dispell.
-Fight combat/shoot in the magic phase? Ok, it gives you a ghost of a chance to kill something now. This is probably getting dispelled.
-Casket? Most dangerous of the lot, but still not many casualties. Might save a couple of dice for this.

You know whats really funny? If GW had ruled that TK magic works as RAW for bound items in 8th(roll to see the power level of the incantaction, then use PD to try to meet it.), then you'd be singing the praises of the new TK Lore.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:
As far as I'm aware, there were NO TK players who went around saying, "Dang, I sure wish I had a new army book that's simply in line with 8th!"

Funny, I don't know a single TK player who didn't say that.

I find that hard to believe, specifically with respect to TK, and generally. Nobody I know has ever wanted a so-so new army book, let alone a book that's worse than the previous book, simply in order to get in line with the latest BRB.

Tzeentchling0 wrote:
The TK book is tremendously improved from the previous one. I'll just focus on magic for now.

TK magic in the previous book was terrible. All your opponent had to do was glance through your book and know what to stop.

As opposed to now, where all your opponent has to do is glance through whatever Lore's list your L(H)P's roll on? Please.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:
-D6 S4 hits? lolz, bring on you flameless fireball. No need to dispell.
-Move/charge in the magic phase? Bring your crappy skellies on. Might stop it if chariots are going to charge, but even then they only have a few impact hits. Usually no need to dispell.
-Fight combat/shoot in the magic phase? Ok, it gives you a ghost of a chance to kill something now. This is probably getting dispelled.

I'm sure you managed to get off more than a few incantations per turn. You prefer Lores to incantations, fine. I don't.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:
-Casket? Most dangerous of the lot, but still not many casualties. Might save a couple of dice for this.

So now it's more dangerous? So a 58% chance of hitting four targets is better than a 100% chance? I think not.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:
You know whats really funny? If GW had ruled that TK magic works as RAW for bound items in 8th(roll to see the power level of the incantaction, then use PD to try to meet it.), then you'd be singing the praises of the new TK Lore.

No, I'd be saying the same thing I said about getting a few new units that look interesting: it's just trying to polish a turd.

I'm with Tzeentchling: my friend who played TK was DYING for a codex in line with 8th. And he's VERY happy with it.

timetowaste85 wrote:I'm with Tzeentchling: my friend who played TK was DYING for a codex in line with 8th. And he's VERY happy with it.

Is that all he wanted? To be "in line with 8th"? Did he think that was all that was needed? Because you can be "in line with 8th" and be worse off than you were before. I think if your friend is honest he'll admit he wanted, not just an "in line" book but a better book. He may think that the new book is both "in line" and "better", but that's two different issues.

Sloths, let me ask you this: Do you really like the Tomb Kings?

Because if you do, quit yer , suck it up, stop crying, and start playing again.

I would like to point out, once again, what happened to Chaos; half of the models in our army got whipped out and put into their own and we can't mix and match between Codicies. Do you know what that means? That means the fact that I payed $45 for those ~eight model units, all six of them, suddenly just became wasted investment. Simple Maths: thats $270 of my army, just whipped out. Now, add to this the Bloodthirster and Lord of Change, again, $45 I beleive, suddenly we are up to $360. And my Chaos Army was always more Mortals, imagine someone who had spent alot more money, enough to have a balanced (between Daemon and Mortal) army.

Now, on top of that $360 loss from the Daemons, Beasts of Chaos were also taken away from Chaos Players. So those four Minotaurs ($15x4=$60), Brayshaman ($15), and two units of Beastmen ($60) I bought, ON TOP OF the Lords and Heros ( about $45 there) AND THEN the book ($20). That's $560, not including basing and paints, conservatively, another $15, for a total of $575.

EXCUSE ME while I play you the worlds smallest violin; at least you can still use all your gak....

Slarg232 thats not fair.

A new edition of army should never have to be " Hey! atleast your army didnt turn into **** like mine "
Thats not sloth's fault , thats GW's fault.

LunaHound wrote:Slarg232 thats not fair.

A new edition of army should never have to be " Hey! atleast your army didnt turn into **** like mine "
Thats not sloth's fault , thats GW's fault.

Possibly true, but my Sympathy Meter is still surprisingly low. At least he can adapt to the changes. This, coupled with the fact that Chaos Units really need to be feilded in 15+, require 5 Models per Rank, and come in 12 Models per Box, really killed Warhammer for me :(

Slarg232 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Slarg232 thats not fair.

A new edition of army should never have to be " Hey! atleast your army didnt turn into **** like mine "
Thats not sloth's fault , thats GW's fault.

Possibly true, but my Sympathy Meter is still surprisingly low. At least he can adapt to the changes. This, coupled with the fact that Chaos Units really need to be feilded in 15+, require 5 Models per Rank, and come in 12 Models per Box, really killed Warhammer for me :(

Trust me i know how you feel , i too have Chaos army. Worse yet i made custom sized movement trays for them , how do you feel when it all doesnt fit! Omgaaaaa lol
unfortunately , GW can also say we can adapt to the changes.... "buy a second box of warrior" 12x 5 boxes = 60
you can line them how ever you want now xD

To be fair , see it from my point of view of why i say its GW's fault.

An new army book doesnt always mean improvement now , here is what irks me.
An "improvement" comes in the form of buffed New units , to get us to buy new products.
An "old" army list that worked well previous edition , will NEVER function the same way again. This forces you to change to the new format of things.
Again, either buy new unit for new synergy, of suffer draw back of old units that doesnt really work together.

This will happen to every army book into the future.

Slarg232 wrote:Sloths, let me ask you this: Do you really like the Tomb Kings?

Because if you do, quit yer , suck it up, stop crying, and start playing again.

Nobody is forcing you to read this thread or participate in this discussion.

Slarg232 wrote:
I would like to point out, once again, what happened to Chaos; half of the models in our army got whipped out and put into their own and we can't mix and match between Codicies. Do you know what that means? That means the fact that I payed $45 for those ~eight model units, all six of them, suddenly just became wasted investment. Simple Maths: thats $270 of my army, just whipped out. Now, add to this the Bloodthirster and Lord of Change, again, $45 I beleive, suddenly we are up to $360. And my Chaos Army was always more Mortals, imagine someone who had spent alot more money, enough to have a balanced (between Daemon and Mortal) army.

Recall the very beginning of the OP, when I pointed out how in 40K my pure World Eaters army was made unplayable. So yes, I am well aware of what happened with Chaos, certainly in the 40K context. (And TK is not the first army to receive such treatment, and certainly won't be the last.) That was the "Fool Me Once" in the title.

Slarg232 wrote:
Now, on top of that $360 loss from the Daemons, Beasts of Chaos were also taken away from Chaos Players. So those four Minotaurs ($15x4=$60), Brayshaman ($15), and two units of Beastmen ($60) I bought, ON TOP OF the Lords and Heros ( about $45 there) AND THEN the book ($20). That's $560, not including basing and paints, conservatively, another $15, for a total of $575.

I spent a lot on my WE 40K army as well.

Slarg232 wrote: EXCUSE ME while I play you the worlds smallest violin; at least you can still use all your ****....

Swell, I can use the same models. To me, that's like being told that I have to speak Italian instead of English, but at least I can still use the same alphabet.

Guys lets not fight, lets discuss some TK strategies >.<

So i was thinking , there were tons of debates on HW vs Spears ,
then i was thinking of priest with augmenting spells.

HW+ shield's parry safe only works on front rank of 6+ Been as slow as they are, they 'll problably end up getting charged from multiple sides anyways.

Then we have the Augment spell with 5+ ward save. Works on all front yet doesnt stack with the 6+ parry safe.
With this in mind , can we say spears arnt so useless? especially when augmented? the extra damage done might very well swing the combat resolution by little bit
hence even less casualty from crumbling. ( another reason why i want to take LA )

LunaHound wrote:HW+ shield's parry safe only works on front rank of 6+ Been as slow as they are, they 'll problably end up getting charged from multiple sides anyways.

What the hell happened to your other units?!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gonna agree with Tzeentling et al, I want a book that's in line with the current edition and balanced with the other books, not a 7th Ed Daemons or Ogres book (to grab the two ends of the spectruum).

That being said, I think this is a poor book, with weak internal balance and a lot of over-costing.

Also, IMO Khalida is about 100 points too expensive compared to a Tomb King if you added comparable abilities.

Havnt arrived from EBTS yet :'P

LordOfThe Sloths, let's suppose you got the wish you seem to be expressing - that the new TK book made most every unit either the same or better than it was before; everything getting killier, or tougher, or cheaper, or a mix of the three.

Given that it took nine years for our book to get this update, how long do you think it'd take this 'arms race' approach of army book writing to make our army completely unplayable in a metagame full of armies with more recent updates than ourselves?

I'm not saying that the days of rapid 'power creep' are definitely over, but as a collector of an army with a very low refresh rate I'm somewhat relieved to see what appears to be a major levelling of the curve on which we will be falling behind in a few years.

We've gone from being 'that army that never runs away and always charges my flanks in the magic phase' to being 'that army that never runs away and has got more Killing Blow attacks than a sackful of Swarmlords'.

I'm not denying that it might have been fun to be one of the last army books to be rewritten on the old 'power creep' and have a guaranteed leafblower. But given the choice between that and the certainty of a long period of obsolescence, or else being viable and having a fair crack at still being viable in five years' time, I prefer the latter.

@Lindsay40k: +1000

Good points!

LordOfTheSloths wrote:Nobody is forcing you to read this thread or participate in this discussion.

True.

lordofthesloths wrote:Recall the very beginning of the OP, when I pointed out how in 40K my pure World Eaters army was made unplayable. So yes, I am well aware of what happened with Chaos, certainly in the 40K context. (And TK is not the first army to receive such treatment, and certainly won't be the last.) That was the "Fool Me Once" in the title.

Yes, but what happened to Chaos in the 40K context pales in comparison to what happened in the Fantasy Context; Even if they lost a few rules, Chaos Space Marines can still be played like the Legions. Half of the Hordes of Chaos army was just wiped out; only four units of CSM were wiped out. Once again, just because we lost a fair amount of rules in the last codex, doesn't mean our lists suck. They just can't be as fluffy anymore.

I spent a lot on my WE 40K army as well.

And once again, you can still use yours. There is nothing stopping you from feilding a World Eaters Army, you just have to use a few Boltguns and such. I absolutely can NOT use my Beastmen or Daemons in my Warriors of Chaos army.

Swell, I can use the same models. To me, that's like being told that I have to speak Italian instead of English, but at least I can still use the same alphabet.

No, that's like being told that you can still speak English but have to understand Italian.

Wait...so the TK army book being changed and keeping all of the same models (and adding quite a bit more) but just making some rule changes is on par to the Chaos army books and codexes being split so that half the models/armies used were invalidated? That's the most ridiculous statement ever. I agree with Slarg-the changes did not make them unplayable, but it did completely destroy a lot of Chaos armies. Such a comparison is unfounded and whiney.

lindsay40k wrote:LordOfThe Sloths, let's suppose you got the wish you seem to be expressing - that the new TK book made most every unit either the same or better than it was before; everything getting killier, or tougher, or cheaper, or a mix of the three.

Given that it took nine years for our book to get this update, how long do you think it'd take this 'arms race' approach of army book writing to make our army completely unplayable in a metagame full of armies with more recent updates than ourselves?

I'm not saying that the days of rapid 'power creep' are definitely over, but as a collector of an army with a very low refresh rate I'm somewhat relieved to see what appears to be a major levelling of the curve on which we will be falling behind in a few years.

We've gone from being 'that army that never runs away and always charges my flanks in the magic phase' to being 'that army that never runs away and has got more Killing Blow attacks than a sackful of Swarmlords'.

I'm not denying that it might have been fun to be one of the last army books to be rewritten on the old 'power creep' and have a guaranteed leafblower. But given the choice between that and the certainty of a long period of obsolescence, or else being viable and having a fair crack at still being viable in five years' time, I prefer the latter.

There is some truth in what you say, certainly in view of GW's penchant for codex/army creep.

Yet, I am still left with the conviction that the current revision was not the only, and certainly not the best, way to address that issue, that GW has simply decided to delete any trace of distinctiveness (for TK and any other non-standard army), and that their motivation in doing so was primarily to get more sales from 9-year-old brats who have ADHD and have fathers with too much money.

And don't forget, getting those extra Killing Blows is far less certain than getting the previous incantations, what with those two new ways not to get a spell off and one new way to kill our L(H)P's in doing so.

This thread has pretty much focused the question for me to: Is the new book bad enough that I'm going to shelve my army (like I did with WE's in 40K), or is it worth putting in more time and money to build more units and keep going? It's a closer question now than when I put up the OP, I will say.

I'm not a Chaos player, but what GW did to Chaos players of all eras was abominable. I dearly hope to see a new Codex for CSM soon, and at the very least an Iron Warriors or Death Guard Codex within five years or so. /threadjack

lindsay40k wrote:I'm not a Chaos player, but what GW did to Chaos players of all eras was abominable. I dearly hope to see a new Codex for CSM soon, and at the very least an Iron Warriors or Death Guard Codex within five years or so. /threadjack

I'm with you there. There's a desperate need for pure Chaos Legions lists like we could run in the previous C:C

Anyway, back to the original topic:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

timetowaste85 wrote:Wait...so the TK army book being changed and keeping all of the same models (and adding quite a bit more) but just making some rule changes is on par to the Chaos army books and codexes being split so that half the models/armies used were invalidated? That's the most ridiculous statement ever. I agree with Slarg-the changes did not make them unplayable, but it did completely destroy a lot of Chaos armies. Such a comparison is unfounded and whiney.

Not exactly the same, but the point remains: the original armies, that people were attracted to playiing and spent time and money developing, have been deleted.

LordOfTheSloths wrote:Not exactly the same, but the point remains: the original armies, that people were attracted to playiing and spent time and money developing, have been deleted.

Pretty much every army had a shift in playing style because of the wholesale changes that 8th ed made. Tomb King's aren't unique, we're just late to the party. MSU had its heart and throat ripped out, its guts peed on, and the remains were scavegened and carried off to the 4 corners of the world by the most heinous of carrion. It seems that High Elves/Chaos are the the only armies anymore that can bring an MSU army to the table, and be sort of competitve, and Khemri used to be the kings of MSU in the worst way. That having been said, MSU really isn't the best possible build any more for any army. It was a philosophy that was really effective, but IMO damaging to the game as a whole.

To just add my two cents, I basically agree with the OP. I finished selling all my TK stuff on ebay two weeks ago, made a good chunk of change on it all since I bought it when they got their first seperate army book almost 10 years ago.

The price increase GW stuff is crazy, made double or more than what I paid for everything. 8th Ed is really disappointing and a lack luster boring TK army book was the end of my interest. I'll stick to Hordes for my fantasy game.

Man, I stopped coming to this forum because its 1000 posts of "what army should i start?"... and then... wow.

giant stegadon wrote:Man, I stopped coming to this forum because its 1000 posts of "what army should i start?"... and then... wow.

You come into a thread designed to complain about the new TK book, and you're surprised to see complaining inside of it? Seriously?

Then, to make matters worse, you actually complain about the complaining.

Except you had no good reason to come in here, only to whine.

Stop trolling, seriously. If you don't have something worthwhile to add, keep it to yourself.

UberhAxTHC wrote:

giant stegadon wrote:Man, I stopped coming to this forum because its 1000 posts of "what army should i start?"... and then... wow.

You come into a thread designed to complain about the new TK book, and you're surprised to see complaining inside of it? Seriously?

Then, to make matters worse, you actually complain about the complaining.

Except you had no good reason to come in here, only to whine.

Stop trolling, seriously. If you don't have something worthwhile to add, keep it to yourself.

There do seem to be more than a few posters whose mission in life is to demonstrate (to themselves at least) how "with it" they are, by ridiculing anyone who offers any criticism of GW. I think there's a name for this kind of poster . . . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ragnar4 wrote:

LordOfTheSloths wrote:Not exactly the same, but the point remains: the original armies, that people were attracted to playiing and spent time and money developing, have been deleted.

Pretty much every army had a shift in playing style because of the wholesale changes that 8th ed made. Tomb King's aren't unique, we're just late to the party. MSU had its heart and throat ripped out, its guts peed on, and the remains were scavegened and carried off to the 4 corners of the world by the most heinous of carrion. It seems that High Elves/Chaos are the the only armies anymore that can bring an MSU army to the table, and be sort of competitve, and Khemri used to be the kings of MSU in the worst way. That having been said, MSU really isn't the best possible build any more for any army. It was a philosophy that was really effective, but IMO damaging to the game as a whole.

Actually, I do like 8th Edition's focus on larger units. But again, did that necessitate what was done in the new TK book?

Be fair, we don't have to rely on spells to get extra Killing Blows. We've got a unit of monstrous cavalry with it, and two attacks apiece. Our monsters bristle with it, making characters think very carefully about having a go. The Destroyer of Eternities can do it to dragons now.

Though it's going to be a right laugh, first time I buff any of those up to 5+ KB, I tell you what.

UberhAxTHC wrote:

giant stegadon wrote:Man, I stopped coming to this forum because its 1000 posts of "what army should i start?"... and then... wow.

You come into a thread designed to complain about the new TK book, and you're surprised to see complaining inside of it? Seriously?

Then, to make matters worse, you actually complain about the complaining.

Except you had no good reason to come in here, only to whine.

Stop trolling, seriously. If you don't have something worthwhile to add, keep it to yourself.

wow I didn't think my single sentence in any way said I was complaining about people complaining. I was commenting that I was surprised about the amount of vitriol in this thread. Your response shows why a mod needed to scrub the thread, go eat a hamburger.

Agree with the OP and bemoan the continued loss of individuality amidst the armies in 8th, I looked through the new book and also decided that this army did not represent the one that I started collecting so it will be sold, along with the majority of my other fantasy armies. 8th edition has basically killed fantasy for me, very sad as I was for the longest time a fantasy fanatic :(

I like the original fluff and the loss of what makes the TK unique is appalling. As an educated and creative individual I want variety in my gaming not the streamlining, dumbing down and randomness injected by the latest edition, maybe 9th will be better

cheers

Papasmurf

So the verdict on fielding Khalida supporting unit of 40 archers , yes or no :x

What hit me hardest of the TKing fluff changes was two things:

1) They were rebuilding. Read the last edition's Tomb King book. Things were to gak in the area because the river was still poisoned, and the earlier attempts at fixing... were mucked up by Orcs, I think it was. Orcs and Civil Wars. Beforehand, they were actually trying to have living thralls again. New book you get the idea that it's a bunch of undead dudes waking up playing undead chess in grabs for power, and then... ??? No idea what they'll do after they have their lands, other than sit on their throne and wait.

2) Making it overt that Skaven helped to kill Nagash. Now, while I get the point of this, it's become almost common knowledge by now... they didn't quite need to make it that obvious "Rat-like figures" and what-not. People who know, know. People who don't, don't, and it's not like it makes that heavy a difference as most people who don't know when reading the TK book are probably not interested in that fluff piece (considering it's covered in just how many other books as well?).

Of the two, second's extremely minor... but the first is big. Unless I missed something, it just made the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ??? Yeah, "fight Nagash" is part of it... but what then?

Minsc wrote:Unless I missed something, it just made the TK come off as power-hungry undead dictators who have no idea what to do afterwards and are obsessed with ruling necropolis' that're returned to former glory, then... ??? Yeah, "fight Nagash" is part of it... but what then?

The same can be said of any evil fantasy / science fiction race. Essentially, you've just pointed out why the good guys always win i.e. to follow most evil plans through to their logical conclusion would be a pretty dour ending to the story. Take some Warhammer/40K/LoTR examples below...

Nagash actually succeeds in turning every living being into his undead slave. Now what?
Tyranids consume every last molecule of biomatter in the universe. Now what?
Khorne kills every last living and daemonic entity in material universe and realm of chaos. Now what?
Sauron covers all the lands in a second darkness and enslaves Middle Earth. Now what?