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After a long hard think about a year or so now I have decided to give up the ghost on my Games Workshop stuff.

Here are my reasons.
1- Chaos Space Marines, it sadly was the start of the fall. I played the newest codex for two years but never could get hyped about it. My armies weren't as creative, my game play not as effective.
2- Recent garbage, I had pretty much shelved everything and had just started selling all of my 40k armies when the current news slop hit the band waves. I muddled through though. I thought I would play fantasy and hold out for a brighter 40k future but then the third reason appeared.
3- New games, there are so many new games I would rather support and spend chunks of money on instead of my GW fantasy gits(read this as miniatures).

Dystopian Wars has revitalized my imagination for tactics, strategy, and war gaming like no other. Let alone Hell Dorado, Dust Tactics, Infinity, Bushido, and many many others. I CAN NOT in good conscience continue support the machine that is GW. I must broaden my horizons and support these newcomers to ensure a brighter newer more competitive gaming culture that we have never yet before seen.

I remember when I first started war gaming. Company’s such as Fasa, Target and many others were in their prime and now we have finally come full circle. More companies are out there in the market plying there trade to provide their own interpretation of gaming fun and I finally feel like a kid again when I go to the game store, so much to choose from and not enough time.

I hereby proclaim that yes we should stop the GW hate, yes we should stop the bashing and the moaning. We should start forgetting about GW and start the praising of the new systems out there.

Let us leave behind these chains and walls that have been clasped to our wrists and built around our imaginations and take a full step out into the new open future that is waiting for us.

I will never stop bashing GW untill they give me a reason not to. But good luck with other wargames!

Troll harder coolyo.

Pael's presenting a serious and well thought out viewpoint, and the best you can do is a 4Chan image repost. Good work!

As serious and as well thought-out as the OP's viewpoint may be, this is a topic that is rehashed constantly.

Pael: good job and good post. I remember and miss FASA. I still may have a catalog of their products.

I especially like reason number 3. There ARE a lot of good games out there that deserve my attention, especially in genres that are popular: space ship battles, WW2, etc. Dust Tactics looks especially interesting. We'll see what the future holds.

I haven't actually played a game yet, but I've purchased some Malifaux models, the rulebook, and a fate deck. I love the sculpts. They are very comic-bookish. The game looks like it's fairly simple and plays in around an hour or so. I'm looking forward to playing a game soon.

augustus5 wrote:this is a topic that is rehashed constantly.

This may be true, but it's an opinion that needs to be repeated again and again, all over the web and on every street corner. People need to understand that GW is NOT the Hobby and they have no right to even name themselves in such a fashion.....no more than Ford has a right to call itself THE Motor Industry......yes in both cases they have a deep and rich heritage, but in GW's case, those guys have become bloated and complacent, and no longer deserve a respected title.

augustus5 wrote:I haven't actually played a game yet, but I've purchased some Malifaux models, the rulebook, and a fate deck. I love the sculpts. They are very comic-bookish. The game looks like it's fairly simple and plays in around an hour or so. I'm looking forward to playing a game soon.

The game may be simple to pick up, but it's extremely deep and can be a complex game.

GW is the GW Hobby.

They're not the wargaming hobby, you're right. But they definitely are a hobby unto their own.

And quite frankly, it is a topic that is rehashed constantly. There's no reason to have new threads every time someone gets fed up. Post in one of five other threads at any given time if it means so much to you that you have to inform the entirety of Dakka that YOU are fed up with GW. That's sure to set GW straight!

If you want to make a difference or make it clear to GW, send them a written letter that is thought-out and detailed. Not just(and I'm not saying your post or that every single post ever made on the subject is this, Pael) "I hate GW and want to see them fail!" or whatever reason you have for deciding not to buy their product.

Show them why they fethed the pooch by using logic and reason, not just mindless nattering.

They're not the wargaming hobby, you're right. But they definitely are a hobby unto their own.

How? What is the difference between Games Workshop and wargaming at large? The main line of reasoning I see coming from GW is that, since they are the only provider of Warhammer Miniatures, they have no competition and are thus a hobby unto themselves. I think I even read in their Investor Relations report that they "have no competition". Their reasoning seems to be that since they are the only company that provides the HHHobby, they have no competiton.

But wouldn't that make every manufacturer a hobby unto themselves? What is Privateer Press? Mantic? Wyrd? Even tiny obscure companies like Crocodile Games and On The Lamb.

To extrapolate, would this mean that Nintendo is distinct from the video gaming industry because they're the only source of Mario games?

Is Ford not part of the auto industry at large because they're the only source of Ford cars?

What hobby are they exactly? Is there something hugely different about the GW Hobby that differentiates it from the rest of the hobby.?

(I mean in the real sense of what they provide. Rules, figures, an IP...like everyone else....not their singularly unique concept of how to sell said items.)

Kanluwen wrote:They're not the wargaming hobby, you're right. But they definitely are a hobby unto their own.

You really believe that crap?

Kanluwen wrote:GW is the GW Hobby.

They're not the wargaming hobby, you're right. But they definitely are a hobby unto their own.

And quite frankly, it is a topic that is rehashed constantly. There's no reason to have new threads every time someone gets fed up. Post in one of five other threads at any given time if it means so much to you that you have to inform the entirety of Dakka that YOU are fed up with GW. That's sure to set GW straight!

If you want to make a difference or make it clear to GW, send them a written letter that is thought-out and detailed. Not just(and I'm not saying your post or that every single post ever made on the subject is this, Pael) "I hate GW and want to see them fail!" or whatever reason you have for deciding not to buy their product.

Show them why they fethed the pooch by using logic and reason, not just mindless nattering.

I don't think the OP mean't it that way. He's suggesting not to rag on GW, or to hate them, but just to move on and let them be. I find that quite mature actually. Writing to GW to "inform" them they have lost your business seems more like childish posturing and wishful thinking....if they have really lost you, then what is the need to tell them, it's over, nothing more to be said.

I think the OP is just sharing an opinion with the group, shooting the breeze and trying to generate discussion, no great rant at GW, no boycott and it seems, no bad feelings.

Delephont wrote:

I don't think the OP meant it that way. He's suggesting not to rag on GW, or to hate them, but just to move on and let them be. I find that quite mature actually.

I think the OP is just sharing an opinion with the group, shooting the breeze and trying to generate discussion, no great rant at GW, no boycott and it seems, no bad feelings.

He may not have "meant" it that way, but we all know how these threads turn out even before H.B.M.C. starts posting in them.

Writing to GW to "inform" them they have lost your business seems more like childish posturing and wishful thinking....if they have really lost you, then what is the need to tell them, it's over, nothing more to be said.

You're right that it is slightly childish and wishful thinking, but at the same time if you're complaining about their business practices, what harm can explaining why and how they lost your business be?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:What hobby are they exactly? Is there something hugely different about the GW Hobby that differentiates it from the rest of the hobby.?

(I mean in the real sense of what they provide. Rules, figures, an IP...like everyone else....not their singularly unique concept of how to sell said items.)

But you see, that is in reality the reasoning that they use to describe themselves as "The GW Hobby".

They're the only ones, as of this moment, with their own storefronts and gaming space available for people to use. They do everything they can to ensure you don't have to go 'outside' their circle of production in order to utilize their product.

Is it a logical reasoning or really worth celebrating? Who knows. It generates a stereotypical elitism, seemingly, that is no different than the stereotype of a well-known electronics company that has their own brand of shops.

Is it a logical reasoning or really worth celebrating? Who knows. It generates a stereotypical elitism, seemingly, that is no different than the stereotype of a well-known electronics company that has their own brand of shops.

It doesn't make it a unique hobby unto itself. Any FLGS worth its salt will provide the same things that a GW store will, albeit often informally. The only difference there is the GW store will only inform you about GW product. The FLGS will usually help you with any product you're interested in

You haven't explained what the difference is, even though you said there was a difference, and then said yourself in your next post that it's just a gimmick to prevent you from being informed about other options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, this is the Games Workshop hobby, according to their "about us" site:

"Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe"


That's their own words. How is this different from any other wargaming manufacturer out there?

"Someone who is involved in the Privateer Press Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in our universe."

"Someone who is involved in the Spartan Games Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in our universe."

"Someone who is involved in the Corvus Belli Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in our universe."

"Someone who is involved in the wargaming hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them."

Again, the only thing in that sentence is the "our universe" bit which can be applied to myriad game companies.

It'd be like if Nintendo said "People in the Nintendo Hobby enjoy our Audio-Visual Interactive Experiences (TM) on our Nintendo Hardware" and opened "Nintendo Centers" where they carry only Nintendo Hardware and Software and started producing their own Nintendo brand Televisions and sound systems to play these games on in an attempt to make "Nintendo" something distinct from "video games", and then claimed that because they're the only providers of Nintendo products, they have no competition.

But I don't want to detract from my main point: You said there is a difference between the HHHobby and the wargaming hobby. What is it?

I think the OP is just sharing an opinion with the group, shooting the breeze and trying to generate discussion, no great rant at GW, no boycott and it seems, no bad feelings.

I agree. I don't see anything wrong at all about the OP's point of view. That point could have been posted in any one of the other threads still open on the subject of why people feel the desire to quit buying from GW and try different games right now.

But, if you prefer, we can continue starting one of these every week.

This may be true, but it's an opinion that needs to be repeated again and again, all over the web and on every street corner. People need to understand that GW is NOT the Hobby and they have no right to even name themselves in such a fashion.....no more than Ford has a right to call itself THE Motor Industry......yes in both cases they have a deep and rich heritage, but in GW's case, those guys have become bloated and complacent, and no longer deserve a respected title.

I don't think that many people who visit this site, which promotes many tabletop wargaming systems, think that GW is all there is out there. Open up the News and Rumors page and most of the threads deal with non-GW models/systems.

I can't quite understand why you're disturbed that GW talk about "The GW hobby". Do you really think that there are people out there that are blissfully unaware that other game systems exist? I promise to not bestow that respected title upon them if it helps you to calm down a little and stop screaming the mantra on every street corner...

RatBot wrote:

Is it a logical reasoning or really worth celebrating? Who knows. It generates a stereotypical elitism, seemingly, that is no different than the stereotype of a well-known electronics company that has their own brand of shops.

It doesn't make it a unique hobby unto itself. Any FLGS worth its salt will provide the same things that a GW store will, albeit often informally. The only difference there is the GW store will only inform you about GW product. The FLGS will usually help you with any product you're interested in.

You haven't explained what the difference is, even though you said there was a difference, and then said yourself in your next post that it's just a gimmick to prevent you from being informed about other options.


In fact, this is the Games Workshop hobby, according to their "about us" site:

"Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe"


That's their own words. How is this different from any other wargaming manufacturer out there?

You missed the key part on there.

Games Workshop wrote:The Hobby

Investors and potential investors in Games Workshop need to understand what we mean by the Hobby.

A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.

Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.

Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game.

"Someone who is involved in the Privateer Press Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in our universe."
"Someone who is involved in the Spartan Games Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in our universe."
"Someone who is involved in the Corvus Belli Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in our universe."
"Someone who is involved in the wargaming hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them."
Again, the only thing in that sentence is the "our universe" bit which can be applied to myriad game companies.
It'd be like if Nintendo said "People in the Nintendo Hobby enjoy our Audio-Visual Interactive Experiences (TM) on our Nintendo Hardware" and opened "Nintendo Centers" where they carry only Nintendo Hardware and Software and started producing their own Nintendo brand Televisions and sound systems to play these games on in an attempt to make "Nintendo" something distinct from "video games", and then claimed that because they're the only providers of Nintendo products, they have no competition.
But I don't want to detract from my main point: You said there is a difference between the HHHobby and the wargaming hobby. What is it?

That's the difference, RatBot.

The entirety is that they attempt to be self-perpetuating. They don't rely on other companies shooting themselves in the foot to get mass exoduses of players who are "tired of the other games", or anything of that nature.

Your point about the FLGS isn't bad, but the FLGS isn't promoting their own product. That's GW's twisted brand of thinking into how they have "The GW Hobby".

The FLGS'(which REALLY is a bad term for this discussion, since GW shops can be FLGSes or any number of oddities such as that. It's why I prefer to say independents whenever possible) goal is to get your money based on whatever your interest is. The GW shop's goal is to get you involved hook, line, and sinker in "The GW Hobby".

I think you can get my point a bit better, but I don't know.

Do you really think that there are people out there that are blissfully unaware that other game systems exist?

The more casual players and people who don't browse these forums and others like them, and only play at GW Hobby Centres? Absolutely. I guarantee that many if not most of them are unaware of much outside of The Hobby (TM). I never even played in official GW stores and my awareness of games other than GW games was dim at best. As far as I knew for years, there was BattleTech and various GW games, and that's it. To be fair, at that time, those were the biggest, but I didn't even know about FASA's other games, Warzone, VOID, Dark Age, or that Historical games even existed.

I've only been involved in wargaming for 12 or 13 years, and there's more competition now than ever, but where I used to live, nothing has gained much traction. Ironically I think CAV and Confrontation were the most popular non GW games for a while. Neither of these exist now. Warmachine was popular for a while, but I don't know where all the Privateer Press fans went. They seem to have disappeared.

RatBot wrote:

But I don't want to detract from my main point: You said there is a difference between the HHHobby and the wargaming hobby. What is it?

The GWplc©,tm "The Hobby©,tm' -is when you play nothing but GW games, using GW models, with GW paint and washes, using GW paint brushes, played on GW terrain or in a GW store, while using the GW carrying case, GW glue, with GW 'hobby tools' and never using or talking about any other companys game or models because they don't exist.

That is the GW's "The Hobby©,tm". They recrute kids between 10-18 years old and expect 80%-90% to drop out within two years of starting. In that time then need to wallet rape them for every last penny. After you turn 18 or if you start talking about that new fangled 'internet' thingy they politely ask you to stop playing in store and find a game club. Each time you visit the staff will try to hardsell you on everything new and if you don't purchace enough, they politely ask you to leave. They see 'Vets' (anyone over 18) as icing on the cake. They belive they make most of their profits from kiddies but in reality they have no idea who buys their figgies.

That is in a nut shell 'The Hobby©,tm'.

Table Top War Gamming hobby is when you do the same thing, but you pick up models that you like, you use different companys products to produce a over all experience for yourself and opponents. You might use Elhiem 20mm figgies for a game like Force on Force, or maybe their 15mm for Flames of War?

Basically GW has created so much 'hate' because they choose to focus on the demographic 'THEY' think earns them the most profit, kids with there parents footing the bill.

Personally, I have been done with GW stuff since I finished working as a redshirt. That killed any hobby love that I had left. They don't want my money, so I will give it to a company that actually wants it. Anyone want to buy a Sister of Battle army on the cheep?

Forgive my ignorance, but where did the term 'HHHobby' stem from?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but where did the term 'HHHobby' stem from?

I think it was KillKrazy who started it.

And what does it mean?

Yeah, it was Killkrazy and I kind of have been appropriating it. I hope he doesn't mind. IIRC he uses it to differentiate between the hobby and The Hobby(TM). Not sure why there's 3H's.



I think I should add, on the topic of "people who don't know anything but GW":

That's why GW hates us vets. We know there are other games out there. We're aware of how ridiculous GW is. That's why they don't want us in their stores or talking about them. The kiddies who play GW are most of the ones who don't know anything but GW, and GW is happy to fleece them of their (parents') cash.

RatBot wrote:

Do you really think that there are people out there that are blissfully unaware that other game systems exist?

The more casual players and people who don't browse these forums and others like them, and only play at GW Hobby Centres? Absolutely. I guarantee that many if not most of them are unaware of much outside of The Hobby (TM). I never even played in official GW stores and my awareness of games other than GW games was dim at best. As far as I knew for years, there was BattleTech and various GW games, and that's it. To be fair, at that time, those were the biggest, but I didn't even know about FASA's other games, Warzone, VOID, Dark Age, or that Historical games even existed.

I've only been involved in wargaming for 12 or 13 years, and there's more competition now than ever, but where I used to live, nothing has gained much traction. Ironically I think CAV and Confrontation were the most popular non GW games for a while. Neither of these exist now. Warmachine was popular for a while, but I don't know where all the Privateer Press fans went. They seem to have disappeared.

Yes there are alot of people out there who don't know any different. They don't brouse Fourms like this one or Warseer. They hang of every word that a GW redshirt says, and takes anything he says as the gospal truth.

It's a total different ball game in the US and Canada. GW doesn't have the market saturation that they do in the UK and continental Europe. GW doesn't have a plan for north america, they did in the 90's but the uppermanagment killed all the good will when they tried to do what they did in europe to the indapendents. If a indy is doing well with GW products, they would open a GW rather close, then the indys shipments would be 'late' and 'missing stock'. They would happen for a while until the people that where commited GW'ers would just go to the GW instead of the indy. This didn't earn them alot of goodwill. Also with north america the distances and population distribution is totally different then in the UK and Europe. We have much longer distances to travel there then they do in the UK. It's not possible or feasable to have a GW shop in every town or every state ( or provience =o]).

Anyways, with regards to GW, you get what you give. Karma will bite you in the ass if you're not careful.

Just my twocents. =o]

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

It's a total different ball game in the US and Canada. GW doesn't have the market saturation that they do in the UK and continental Europe. GW doesn't have a plan for north america, they did in the 90's but the uppermanagment killed all the good will when they tried to do what they did in europe to the indapendents. If a indy is doing well with GW products, they would open a GW rather close, then the indys shipments would be 'late' and 'missing stock'. They would happen for a while until the people that where commited GW'ers would just go to the GW instead of the indy. This didn't earn them alot of goodwill. Also with north america the distances and population distribution is totally different then in the UK and Europe. We have much longer distances to travel there then they do in the UK. It's not possible or feasable to have a GW shop in every town or every state ( or provience =o]).

Heh, never knew that. They must've given up on that plan shortly before I started playing, there's never been a GW closer than 90 minutes to me (it closed a while ago) and I always played at indie shops. Despite my lack of knowledge in regard to the existence of other games, I also didn't know GW had their own stores until I had been playing for a year or two.

augustus5 wrote:As serious and as well thought-out as the OP's viewpoint may be, this is a topic that is rehashed constantly.

Sign of the extent of malcontent
but the OP would have fitted just as well in Delphont's thread

Is sometimes worth a search before posting

I'm in the malcontent group myself. Haven't purchased anything new since May, and will continue to only make second hand purchases. I still enjoy and play the game, and am even getting into WHFB through all second hand purchases, but will not buy anything new.

OK, I somehow missed Kanluwen's response to my long, rambling post. I'm not sure what part of GW's description you consider key.

I can only assume it's this:

Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

If so, then it still doesn't mean that the Games Workshop Hobby is somehow distinct from the wargaming hobby. It certainly means that GW likes to believe that they are somehow distinct and seperate from the Wargaming Hobby, and it's clearly just a marketing ploy to keep uninformed Hobbyists uninformed.

"Oh ho, you could play Kings of War, but that's not part of the Games Workshop Hobby, and therefore isn't the same, not to mention there's no Mantic Hobby Center to 'advise' you on new units, painting, and how to play" despite the fact that Kings of War is, in principle, quite similar to WHFB and there's a decent chance there's someone at an independent store who can provide the same service.

If I'm still missing the point, then I must be hopeless. I have no idea what the distinction is between The HHHobby and the wargaming hobby other than a marketing ploy solely intended to keep the herd fenced in.

The part I quoted has to be the relevant part, because this:

A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.

Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.

Is true of any miniature wargame and its players, and the last paragraph just says "we make a whole bunch of games that appeal to a variety of people", which means they just have broader appeal than their competitors, much like how the Wii is more likely appeal to hordes of nongamers than the PS3 or XBox 360, which are more likely to appeal to more hardcore gamers.


Ergo, there is no "Games Workshop Hobby". The "Games Workshop Hobby" is just an artificial restriction on the broader wagaming hobby that GW uses to sound special and make you think that somehow playing Warhammer is an entirely different experience than playing any other game, which is untrue. It can't be because they make their own paints and modelling supplies, because Reaper and Privateer Press also do this, and even if this were not the case, that's not a big difference. It doesn't somehow make purchasing Malifaux models, building and painting them with third-party supplies, building a Malifaux table with Malifaux terrain and playing Malifaux somehow a totally different hobby than the rest of the wargaming hobby or The HHHobby. The fact that GW has dedicated stores doesn't magically make their game something totally different and therefore separate from the broader hobby. In fact, if the Hobby Center is the key difference between The HHHobby and the hobby, then the Games Workshop Hobby does not exist for the overwhelming majority of gamers in the US. So what hobby have Warhammer players in the States been participating in all these years?

RatBot wrote:OK, I somehow missed Kanluwen's response to my long, rambling post. I'm not sure what part of GW's description you consider key.

I can only assume it's this:

Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

If so, then it still doesn't mean that the Games Workshop Hobby is somehow distinct from the wargaming hobby. It certainly means that GW likes to believe that they are somehow distinct and seperate from the Wargaming Hobby, and it's clearly just a marketing ploy to keep uninformed Hobbyists uninformed.

You've missed it again. Read beyond "our job".

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game.

As of right now, Mantic is doing the same with "Dwarf King's Hold" and its expansions.

That is what GW considers important enough to brand themselves as their own 'Hobby'. You don't have to be introduced to GW by a friend, or by the internet, or disgruntled fans of another system. You could feasibly walk into one of their shops(or any number of independents) and get introduced that way.

So the fact that they have their own shops and make a variety of games magically makes them their own hobby? Especially because if I walk into a GW now, they're not even going to tell me about Epic Armageddon or Blood Bowl, so their bragging about Specialist games is totally moot. Anyone experienced enough to know about Specialist Games is going to be outside their target age demographic and the same kind of internet-savvy person they seem to actively discourage. "Keeping them in the Hobby" just means "make sure they continue to play our games, and, ideally, not know that other games exist." Does this mean Mantic is becoming its own Hobby? When PP releases their Sci-Fi game, will they magically become their own hobby? If they opened their own stores, would that make them their own hobby? They already make a couple board games, so they must be really close to being their own hobby, totally distinct from the wargaming hobby as a whole.

Incidentally, I wasn't introduced to CAV by a friend, I was introduced to it by an independent Reaper street-team member at my FLGS. I was first introduced to Warmachine by a Press Ganger. Both of these people were total strangers to me. I was introduced to Warhammer by a friend, completely unaffiliated with GW, and so were all my other friends. None of us has regularly attended a GW store.

GW could just close down their stores and reintroduce their Outrider program and get what amounts to free advertising and saving them a bundle on the cost of running the stores, and the Outriders could essentially provide the same service the GW stores do, just inside an independent store. The problem is then that new recruits might accidentally see those shiny Malifaux figures on the shelf and decide to play that instead.


But is "making a bunch of different games" and "we have our own stores" enough to make them their own hobby, completely distinct from the wargaming hobby? No. Of course not.

Again, I reiterate:

The vast majority of US Warhammer players do not play at GW Stores. Since the key difference between the GW Hobby and the wargaming hobby seems to be the store, does that mean that the GW Hobby doesn't exist in most of the US?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and:

You could feasibly walk into one of their shops(or any number of independents) and get introduced that way.

And I could feasibly walk into any number of independent shops and be introduced to any number of other games. Does that make them their own hobby, too?

GW certainly does control the vast majority of the wargaming market. No single competitor comes close to them, not even Privateer Press. GW may be bigger than all the other game studios combined. That doesn't somehow make them their own hobby, it just makes them the biggest player in the wargaming hobby. "The Games Workshop Hobby" is a marketing gimmick to keep GW players from even considering that there might be other games out there.