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RatBot wrote:So the fact that they have their own shops and make a variety of games magically makes them their own hobby? Especially because if I walk into a GW now, they're not even going to tell me about Epic Armageddon or Blood Bowl, so their bragging about Specialist games is totally moot. Anyone experienced enough to know about Specialist Games is going to be outside their target age demographic and the same kind of internet-savvy person they seem to actively discourage. "Keeping them in the Hobby" just means "make sure they continue to play our games, and, ideally, not know that other games exist." When PP releases their Sci-Fi game, will they magically become their own hobby? If they opened their own stores, would that make them their own hobby?

Incidentally, I wasn't introduced to CAV by a friend, I was introduced to it by an independent Reaper street-team member at my FLGS. I was first introduced to Warmachine by a Press Ganger. Both of these people were total strangers to me. I was introduced to Warhammer by a friend, completely unaffiliated with GW, and so were all my other friends. None of us has regularly attended a GW store.

GW could just close down their stores and reintroduce their Outrider program and get what amounts to free advertising and saving them a bundle on the cost of running the stores, and the Outriders could essentially provide the same service the GW stores do, just inside an independent store. The problem is then that new recruits might accidentally see those shiny Malifaux figures on the shelf and decide to play that instead.

In the 14 years I have been involved in wargaming, I've never met a Reaper "street-team member". I've met a single Press Ganger, who was a complete and utter tool to anyone when he demoed games and constantly acted as though he was far superior to the rest of the gamers because he played Warmachine and had "told GW to feth off".
I met no Outriders, as far as I know, with everything 40k related being organized by GW who sent the shopowner at my FLGS the material for running campaigns, tournaments, etc.

But is "making a bunch of different games" and "we have our own stores" enough to make them their own hobby, completely distinct from the wargaming hobby? No. Of course not.
Again, I reiterate:
The vast majority of US Warhammer players do not play at GW Stores. Since the key difference between the GW Hobby and the wargaming hobby seems to be the store, does that mean that the GW Hobby doesn't exist in most of the US?

The vast majority of US Warhammer players play at shops where GW has had a vested interest in ensuring the shop grows.

oh, and:

You could feasibly walk into one of their shops(or any number of independents) and get introduced that way.

And I could feasibly walk into any number of independent shops and be introduced to any number of other games. Does that make them their own hobby, too?

Sure...if in fact you feasibly can be introduced by the company itself.

Since you added a lot to your post that I replied to, I'm going to reply to it here.

Ergo, there is no "Games Workshop Hobby". The "Games Workshop Hobby" is just an artificial restriction on the broader wagaming hobby that GW uses to sound special and make you think that somehow playing Warhammer is an entirely different experience than playing any other game, which is untrue.

So every other wargame has a reasonably large fanbase, shops dedicated to it, an entire publishing branch devoted to expanding the universe, roleplaying supplements, and things like that?

You can play GW's stuff for years and never be directly exposed to the other games.

It can't be because they make their own paints and modelling supplies, because Reaper and Privateer Press also do this, and even if this were not the case, that's not a big difference. It doesn't somehow make purchasing Malifaux models, building and painting them with third-party supplies, building a Malifaux table with Malifaux terrain and playing Malifaux somehow a totally different hobby than the rest of the wargaming hobby or The HHHobby.

I really wish you lot would stop with "The HHHobby" crap since it seems more and more as I see it, especially with the reasoning you lot give as if implying that GW gamers are morons who refuse to admit there's other games out there.

The fact that GW has dedicated stores doesn't magically make their game something totally different and therefore separate from the broader hobby. In fact, if the Hobby Center is the key difference between The HHHobby and the hobby, then the Games Workshop Hobby does not exist for the overwhelming majority of gamers in the US. So what hobby have Warhammer players in the States been participating in all these years?

I was wondering when you were going to bring this up. I'd love to know how many people were introduced to GW via its own hobby centers here in the US, their earlier board games, etc. I can't say for certain there, but what I can reasonably say is that the idea that I put forth is what GW's management believes, and it's what they believe makes Games Workshop a recognizable brand when if you ask someone about Warmachine or Privateer Press they have no clue what the feth you're on about in many cases.

But just because GW itself introduces me to Warhammer doesn't make GW its own hobby.

Just because GW provides excellent support to independents doesn't make it its own hobby.

Just because GW has its own shops doesn't make it its own hobby.

Just because GW has an expanded universe (which Privateer Press does, by the way; boardgames and RPG supplements, and soon (allegedly) novels) doesn't make it its own hobby. As a note, Games Workshop doesn't seem all that interested in promoting RPGs, card games, and video games, so when they talk about "The Games Workshop Hobby" I've never gotten the sense that they're including these things.

Games Workshop believes it's its own hobby. It doesn't make it it's own hobby.

All this simply means that GW is the biggest player in the wargaming hobby (and much of it is probably why GW is the biggest player in the wargaming hobby). It doesn't make it its own hobby.


I've never met an Outrider either and the only Press Ganger I met was quite polite and friendly and didn't badmouth any other games, but instead would try to extoll the virtues of Warmachine.

I can play World of Warcraft without being exposed to other MMORPGs. Doesn't mean World of Warcraft is somehow its own genre and distinct from other MMORPGs.

Except WoW was actually considered its own thing for quite awhile.

I'm not saying whether GW is right or wrong--I'm simply trying to hammer home the point that in the perception of people unaware of miniature wargaming at large, GW is considered their 'own thing'.

I know Chibi will get the barrels and polar bears if I say this, but:

Apple has their own stores. They are not their own industry. They are simply part of it - a big part, yes - but not an entity into and of themselves that is somehow separate from every other electronics manufacturer out there.

The same applies to GW. They are not a hobby. They are part of one.

I've never met anyone in gaming other than the guys at the GW shops.

Even when all I knew was GW, saw plenty of other systems and games at the LFGS on my first visit there.
Wargaming mags in my newsagent indicated that there was more to gaming than GW.

GW may be considered as an autonomous gaming system.
But only inasmuch as it specifically excludes other models in its stores. Personally I don't play in them and consequently do not give a fig. I use whatever I want to.

GW is not THE Hobby. It is part of a wider wargaming community. The gaming community is greater than GW.

Put it this way, If GW went belly up tomorrow, would wargaming also end?

I think we can agree that a lot of people (not least of all GW) BELIEVE that there is a "Games Workshop Hobby". And GW is quite interested in making sure perception stays that way.


It doesn't mean it's true or that it exists. Just because people are ill-informed and ignorant doesn't mean GW is its own hobby in the same way that the universe wasn't geocentric just because people hundreds of years ago believed it.

Like I said, the "Games Workshop Hobby" nonsense is solely to keep people ignorant of the competition.

Kanluwen wrote:Except WoW was actually considered its own thing for quite awhile.

By whom?

WoW has always been a MMO, not a special separate type of game that nothing else emulates. It came after many other MMO, and many MMO's have come after it. It is the most successful, but please don't equate 'successful' with 'separate entity'.

If WoW tried to claim that they were their own genre, separate from the MMO genre, they certainly would've been mocked (though this would not have affected their success).

Why, then, is "The Games Workshop Hobby" acceptable?

It reminds me of people giving up Warhammer for another game saying they're "quitting the hobby". No, you're not quitting the hobby. You're playing a different game.

Bears and barrels are for those citing Apple to justify GW's crazy policy decisions
So you are safe this time HBMC

Fine, a less polar bear-inducing example:

Sony has their own stores. Sony also makes the Play Station 3. Sony are not their own industry. The PS3 is just another gaming console, not a special piece of technology apart from the 360 or the Wii or whatever.

And Kanluwen, you can go on about books and video games and Bugman's Bar for all I care, but this is what GW defines the GW hobby as:

Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe.

Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.

This is the core of the Games Workshop Hobby. Not only is it the defining feature of their hobby, it is the only aspect of their hobby they mention in their about us. According to GW, the crux of their hobby is collecting, painting, converting and gaming with miniatures.

Which also happens to be the definition of the wargaming hobby.

Therefore.... there is no GW Hobby. Even if people think it exists, even if GW thinks it exists, it does not.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except WoW was actually considered its own thing for quite awhile.

By whom?

WoW has always been a MMO, not a special separate type of game that nothing else emulates. It came after many other MMO, and many MMO's have come after it. It is the most successful, but please don't equate 'successful' with 'separate entity'.

Early on I remember hearing reviewers say that WoW was considered to be the "new breed of MMO".

Whether or not it's true or hype because of how successful they predicted it to be or just Blizzard's typical BS?
Dunno.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Except WoW was actually considered its own thing for quite awhile.

By whom?

WoW has always been a MMO, not a special separate type of game that nothing else emulates. It came after many other MMO, and many MMO's have come after it. It is the most successful, but please don't equate 'successful' with 'separate entity'.

Early on I remember hearing reviewers say that WoW was considered to be the "new breed of MMO".

Whether or not it's true or hype because of how successful they predicted it to be or just Blizzard's typical BS?
Dunno.

As someone who has played a lot of MMOs, that's a bit hyperbolic. All it did was take the old MMO and make it accessible to a lot more people. It's still an MMORPG. A new breed of MMORPG? Maybe. But If I develop a new breed of dog, it's still a dog and not some totally unique animal.

Kanluwen wrote:Early on I remember hearing reviewers say that WoW was considered to be the "new breed of MMO".

Wha...? That's it? Some reviews used some colourful (and possibly hyperbolic) language in a review? Do you know how often the phrase "a new breed of [insert something here" gets used, or words to those effect? I don't. You know why i don't? Because there's too many to count. Haven't you ever heard a commercial tell you that something is a "new generation in [this product type]", or that it leaves "other products in the dust/makes them obselete/etc.". Halo was marketed as 'Combat Evolved'. That doesn't mean that it actually had.

Yeah. We all have. It's part of marketing and gushing critical analysys. Works the other way as well ("[Product X] is a step backwards for [industry Y]").

Or even this:

Your post, quoted above, is a new breed of substance-free argument.

And do you know how often you actually post something worth reading?

RatBot wrote:And Kanluwen, you can go on about books and video games and Bugman's Bar for all I care, but this is what GW defines the GW hobby as:

Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe.

Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.

This is the core of the Games Workshop Hobby. Not only is it the defining feature of their hobby, it is the only aspect of their hobby they mention in their about us. According to GW, the crux of their hobby is collecting, painting, converting and gaming with miniatures.

Which also happens to be the definition of the wargaming hobby.

Therefore.... there is no GW Hobby. Even if people think it exists, even if GW thinks it exists, it does not.

The term " GW Hobby" is nothing more than a marketing catch phrase...and like most marketing catch phrases...it's a steaming pile.
Gw is one of many companies within the " Wargaming Hobby" circle...period.
GW is no more " The Hobby" than Coke is "The Real Thing"...

RatBot wrote:And Kanluwen, you can go on about books and video games and Bugman's Bar for all I care...

Books and video games? BattleTech has books. And video games. It even had a TV series. Heavy Gear had all of these as well.

Are they their own hobby?

Maelstrom Games UK have a massive gaming area for lots of different games... and they have their own bar and restaurant. And, come to think of it, they make their own miniatures and templates.

Are they their own hobby?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:And do you know how often you actually post something worth reading?

That's the best you can do Kan? A personal attack in place of responding what I (or anyone) has said in the thread?

That's pretty poor form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:It's about as often as you're correct about something to rage about.

And what the hell does this even mean?

I don't like price rises. Can one be wrong about not liking price rises?
I don't like the embargo. Can one be wrong about not liking the embargo?

And nice try again - 'something to rage about' - implying that everything I'm unhappy about is somehow unfounded and not based upon any sort of thought-out argument at all.

Or, to put it another way:

Me (or anyone): I think XYZ.
the Kan: I can't refute that, so I'll dismiss everything he's just said as 'rage'. Ha! That'll save me from ever having to come up with a cogent thought or coherent rebuttal.
Me (or anyone): WTF?

Ad hominem ad nauseum!

If they want to call themselves their own hobby, I have no problems with it.

To quote myself from earlier...

Kanluwen wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:What hobby are they exactly? Is there something hugely different about the GW Hobby that differentiates it from the rest of the hobby.?

(I mean in the real sense of what they provide. Rules, figures, an IP...like everyone else....not their singularly unique concept of how to sell said items.)

But you see, that is in reality the reasoning that they use to describe themselves as "The GW Hobby".

They're the only ones, as of this moment, with their own storefronts and gaming space available for people to use. They do everything they can to ensure you don't have to go 'outside' their circle of production in order to utilize their product.

Is it a logical reasoning or really worth celebrating? Who knows. It generates a stereotypical elitism, seemingly, that is no different than the stereotype of a well-known electronics company that has their own brand of shops.

If Privateer Press, Maelstrom, Battlefront, whoever want to start calling themselves their own hobby--go for it. There's nothing saying they can't advertise themselves as it, because hey--wargaming is a hugely generic term.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's the best you can do Kan? A personal attack in place of responding what I (or anyone) has said in the thread?

That's pretty poor form.

You're right. It was low and underhanded, sorry for that.
It's irksome to continually have every single thing I state, even when it's pretty bloody obvious that it's speculation and opinion, attacked as some kind of example of stupidity or ignorance or whiteknighting.

RatBot wrote:And Kanluwen, you can go on about books and video games and Bugman's Bar for all I care, but this is what GW defines the GW hobby as:

Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe.

Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.

This is the core of the Games Workshop Hobby. Not only is it the defining feature of their hobby, it is the only aspect of their hobby they mention in their about us. According to GW, the crux of their hobby is collecting, painting, converting and gaming with miniatures.

Which also happens to be the definition of the wargaming hobby.

Therefore.... there is no GW Hobby. Even if people think it exists, even if GW thinks it exists, it does not.

Well, it's just like UFO's and the Yeti, some people think they exist, and some people don't. =o]


When people say 'The Hobby, it is usually ex-staff members and ex-GW players. Alot of people where introduced to GW's games through one of there stores. It seems to me that it started in the mid-2000's when alot of there less ...... liked incidents started to happen like the annual GW PLC "Yearly price adjustment©,TM", the almost total denial that Specialist games ever existed, their 'churn and burn' mentality, etc etc [ Insert random interent nerd rage topic here]. When that started getting out on the net the people who used to play GW games called it 'The Hobby' as it was part of the GW corperate culture, it kinda stuck.

Mostly now you see it on both sides as most people who where into GW games know what 'The Hobby' is, and it's just picked up that meaning kind of like 'Whiskey Tango Foxtrot' and OMG.

As you didn't 'grow up' in a GW shop it wouldn't of been known to you that that was what people who where into GW called it. Make some sence now?

Kanluwen wrote:If they want to call themselves their own hobby, I have no problems with it.

Ah ah ah! No backtracking mister!

You can't go from arguing that "GW is the GW Hobby ... [T]hey definitely are a hobby unto their own." and then change that to “I don’t mind if they call themselves that”.

Leave the goalposts there they are Kan. They’re not yours to move.

Kanluwen wrote:It's irksome to continually have every single thing I state, even when it's pretty bloody obvious that it's speculation and opinion, attacked as some kind of example of stupidity or ignorance or whiteknighting.

Must as it is to have every (potentially) legitimate complaint written off as ‘nerd raging’.

Sorry to hear that Pael, but I understand why you're doing it. I have noticed some of the inordinate amount of cheese pouring from some of the newest codexes and a lot of the newest models are really cool looking, but damn are they expensive. Not to mention GW's turtle paced updates for several armies, why should Necrons wait for 10 years for an update, or DE for what seemed like an eternity? This company needs to wake up from their boorish business practices. They have all the potential to be the best bar none, but they squander any of that by constantly fiddling with prices and rule sets.

Sorry for my rambling, still, I feel like I could leave the stuff for a while and come back to something completely different (and if any of the rumors are true about Sixth Ed, I'll probably just give it up and stick to collecting ball cards, at least those companies don't pretend to care what you think. You either buy the product or don't, no skin off their asses)

Let me see if I got this right:
The term, "THE Hobby" originated from a yeti that came out of a UFO and walked into a GW store.

Sorted!

How would you tell a yeti from some of the regular customers that go into GW stores?


Ok, ok... stopping this now before we/I go too far.

The yeti has at least some hygiene?

" I don't care what anyone says...I think Finecast are fantastic!!!"

FITZZ wrote:

" I don't care what anyone says...I think Finecast are fantastic!!!"

Genius

Books and video games? BattleTech has books. And video games. It even had a TV series. Heavy Gear had all of these as well.

BattleTech should've been the first thing I mentioned. Man, I love me some BattleTech. MechWarrior 2, the table top game, even the novels were pretty good.

I was a bit young when I saw the BattleTech cartoon, I barely remember it. I think I'd even pay good money for the series on DVD, and I can't even really remember the premise, the only thing I remember is the Elemental with the green tattoos or something like that.


EDIT:

O SNAP!





Welp, 30 seconds in and it's already pretty bad.

He would say that
Half his leg is missing

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:He would say that
Half his leg is missing

... ..Yes, but with just a bit of Green Stuff and a little sculpting..oh..wait.

FITZZ wrote:

" I don't care what anyone says...I think Finecast are fantastic!!!"

"Just look at the detail on this finely crafted Emperor's Champion"