Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was looking at adding some Ratlings into my IG army with some Cadian sniper models. After looking at sniper rifles and what they do, I find them supremely lacking against mechanized infantry.

So what I would propose to bring sniper rifles a bit more oomph is to have sniper rifles get a bit more creative with what they can hit.

Looking at what snipers often do, which is pick out vulnerable targets and opportunity shots, here is what I think could help add a little more to the sniper's arsenal.

Once per enemy turn, a unit with sniper rifles can automatically shoot an enemy unit that is disembarking from a transport if within LOS and range. Any snipers gets a free shot (as if they were shooting during their own shooting phase), representing a sniper attempting to take opportunity shots when presented with one. Enemy units disembarking that are fired upon get a 4+ cover save.

To be fair, only one unit containing snipers can use this action per enemy unit. So if you have two units with snipers, and one enemy disembarks, only one of your sniper units could fire.

What else do you think could be done to give the sniper rifle flexibility in today's mech heavy environment?

Hmm that's pretty creative, I kinda like that.

Increase rending based on BS or something. Something minimal, but when you've got rifles that range from needles to shells the size of my phone tanks start to look mighty vulnerable. Exhausts on Land Raiders, vulnerable tracks etc... The advantage of a 50cal sniper rifle is that you don't need a LAW to stop a vehicle... Assuming technology has progressed enough to have abundantly powerful rifles, immobilizing options for example would be a welcome addition to the mech heavy environ we game in today.

Rico..

Rico wrote:Increase rending based on BS or something. Something minimal, but when you've got rifles that range from needles to shells the size of my phone tanks start to look mighty vulnerable. Exhausts on Land Raiders, vulnerable tracks etc... The advantage of a 50cal sniper rifle is that you don't need a LAW to stop a vehicle... Assuming technology has progressed enough to have abundantly powerful rifles, immobilizing options for example would be a welcome addition to the mech heavy environ we game in today.

Rico..

The problem with realism in the 40k millennium is that there are varying standards of effectiveness of all war gear in general. For instance, the Imperium still uses tanks that look little different from their second millennium ancestors. And yet they can fight flying anti-gravity tanks used by aliens millions of years in advance of what the human race has produced so far. Go figure.

As for the BS thing, I think that would be an interesting idea. Reward snipers with higher BS than 3 (the human average I guess?) with a 1 point range difference on their first rending roll.

So BS 3 snipers still need a 6. BS 4 is 5+, BS 5 is 4+. At BS 6, the roll is still 4+, but the range carries over to the reroll if it misses.

WarOne wrote:

Rico wrote:Increase rending based on BS or something. Something minimal, but when you've got rifles that range from needles to shells the size of my phone tanks start to look mighty vulnerable. Exhausts on Land Raiders, vulnerable tracks etc... The advantage of a 50cal sniper rifle is that you don't need a LAW to stop a vehicle... Assuming technology has progressed enough to have abundantly powerful rifles, immobilizing options for example would be a welcome addition to the mech heavy environ we game in today.

Rico..

The problem with realism in the 40k millennium is that there are varying standards of effectiveness of all war gear in general. For instance, the Imperium still uses tanks that look little different from their second millennium ancestors. And yet they can fight flying anti-gravity tanks used by aliens millions of years in advance of what the human race has produced so far. Go figure.

As for the BS thing, I think that would be an interesting idea. Reward snipers with higher BS than 3 (the human average I guess?) with a 1 point range difference on their first rending roll.

So BS 3 snipers still need a 6. BS 4 is 5+, BS 5 is 4+. At BS 6, the roll is still 4+, but the range carries over to the reroll if it misses.

If this were to happen my scout snipers would finally come out of the box Telion aswell

I generally like using Sniper's but the biggest problem is they don't damage that much, everything with them is that it's mostly up to chance what happens and this rule you are proposing would certainly chance all this..

(sorry for mispelling or not making any sense i'm really tired while writting this xD)

Well they face imo two major problems in their current level

Mech Armies

MEQ/High ld or fearless Armies

Anti infantry pinning heavy weapons dont affect these armies too much which are very very common. I do like the BS rending thing though. Although wouldnt that would make the eversor even more powerful?

What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

htj wrote:What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

Hmmm I think that should be reserved for the best sniper (see eversor)

Otherwise this would cause a HUGE change in foot armies if suddenly nobz, KFF Meks, commissars, heavy weapons, etc can get picked off by mass of snipers

htj wrote:What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

I second this. This makes sniper weapons more viable while still preserving dedicated snipers, Vindicare Assassins, because they are still only AP6 weapons.

Allow shooter-allocation on to-hit rolls of 6 and I'd say it would be more balanced. Super snipers like Telion get to allocate, but that's because they're bades.

I don't think the above idea is bad, but I'd make pinning more effective, say, a penalty to the Ld test equal to the number of wounds taken before saves. Fearless units could ignore the effects of pinning by electing to take additional wounds the same way they do for sweeping advances.

Yeah, maybe only allocation on a roll of a 6, otherwise sniper-spam would probably end up being OP. Well, if everyone wasn't in a vehicle anyway, that is.

The vindicare assasin is the only assasin with sniper weapons, not the eversor. The eversor is the berserker that explodes when you kill him.
The current sniper rules are too weak for my tastes, especially scout snipers. The pathfinders are not much better. The only wounding on a 4+ ruins them for me.

I like the rules ideas people proposed.

Sniper weapon

Rends on 6 for BS3, 5 for BS4, 4 for BS5.

Make the pinning work like multiple barrages i.e. -1 for each wound. So 4 wounds from sniper rifles mean the squad tests for pinning at -1Ld

If shooting at a fearless squad you may re-roll wounds to represent the squad having no regard for their own safety. This would make them much more effective against monstrous creatures and various fearless units like daemons, orks, nids, etc.

I agree that Ratlings are a great unit on paper but they're hampered by the sniper ruleset.

Maybe make sniper pinning tests at -1 or -2 if the snipers are in cover (since you cannot see where the shots come from?)

For every point of BS above 3, increase the range of Sniper Rifles by 6"

When a Sniper Rifle rolls a 6 to HIT, you may allocate that wound(if it wounds) to the target of your choice. If the shooter is BS 5 or more, this is on a roll of 5+ instead.

orz192 wrote:The vindicare assasin is the only assasin with sniper weapons, not the eversor. The eversor is the berserker that explodes when you kill him.

Wow that slipped my mind

I need to get more sleep


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For every point of BS above 3, increase the range of Sniper Rifles by 6"

When a Sniper Rifle rolls a 6 to HIT, you may allocate that wound(if it wounds) to the target of your choice. If the shooter is BS 5 or more, this is on a roll of 5+ instead.

Hmm fair enough. Although how many +BS5 snipers are there that dont already do this?

None, to my Space Marine playing knowledge.

If you want to fix them, I think Sniper Rifles=

S3 AP4, Poisoned 4+, adds 1 to BS when rolling to hit. Cover saves may not be taken against wounds inflicted by Sniper Rifles. Pinning.

Make it Re-rolling successful Cover Saves, not negating them entirely. And you forgot Rending.

Also, Sniper Rifles should always get Penetrating hits on Open Topped Vehicles on a 4+, and glance on a 3.

Ah, it was about time we got this thread again.

I suggest you ask GW to put sniper rifles on actual dedicated sniper units. Certainly sniper ratlings are better, point per point, than sniper scouts.

I like the idea of a bonus to firing from cover (WHICH MAKES SENSE FOR SNIPERS) I mean cmon, I've seen people use snipers like they were Redcoats in the british army, just standing in the open shoulder-to-shoulder.

Good point on there being no BS5 basic snipers. So here's a way to modify it more-

-Wounds automatically when you roll a 6 to hit (open topped vehicles automatically suffer Crew Shaken). Roll to wound anyway to see if rending.
-Rending; if you fail to rend but succeed to wound, half your wounding sniper models (rounded down) may re-roll to see if they rend.
-Enemy squad takes pinning test if casualties; -1 Ld for each casualty beyond the first, -2 Ld if snipers were in cover.
-If squad is fearless, they take additional wounds based on their leadership penalty (saves may be rolled as normal) to representing their bravery/stupidity making them an easier target.

Shitstorm inbound, you brought up the Snipers vs. Fearless debate.

personally, from an IG sense, get rid of ratlings all together, give their stats to a dedicated real human, give them allocation a 6 and make a special character, with bs 5 and allocation on any hit

Fairfeldia wrote:personally, from an IG sense, get rid of ratlings all together, give their stats to a dedicated real human, give them allocation a 6 and make a special character, with bs 5 and allocation on any hit

The great "feed them to the nids" argument.

They'd basically be Scouts, but slightly better.

and more points

Jerjare wrote:I like the rules ideas people proposed.

Sniper weapon

Rends on 6 for BS3, 5 for BS4, 4 for BS5.

bnut this wound mean that Vindicare assassins with BS8,or any sniper with BS7+ isnt benefitin much especially the assassin wouldn't benefit much,except that he has auto rending vs vehicles,which combined with Turbo penetrators,would grant an armour pen. strength of between 11(3+{4x1}+[4x1])=(3+4+4=11) and 39(3+[4x6]+[4x3])=(3+24+12=39)

the rules are ther for a reason!if you stray from the Path you will plunge into rage and darkness.Look at eldar exarches!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gavin Thorne wrote:Allow shooter-allocation on to-hit rolls of 6 and I'd say it would be more balanced.

no it wouldn't.the allocation just doesn't just show ramdomers dieing.its also eg a heavy weapons man dieing and someone else picking it up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
guys let me clear this up for you

snipers wound on a 4+ because there S3,hence S3 vs vehicles,and nothing is below T3.however,GW wanted to make it fair,so they gave you a 50:50 chance of wounding hightoughness modals.

once the shot leaves the barrel the shooter has no control over it so saying rendig on 6 for BS3 and 5 for BS4 etc is stupid.

each weapon has a limited range(in fluff terms like 300meters),so 6" extra range is stupid.

higher bs is rewarded by rerolls for BS6+ and hitting easier

sniping doesnt require any real skill.like other guns its point and shoot.its beeter becuase their more accurate and have telescopic sights.this means that allocation is stupid because thy are not gunning anyone in particular.

the vindicare,btw has ap1,is trained for decades to target individuals

telion is a flukey son of a that should be butchered and ing fed tho the tyranids!!!

Deadshot wrote:
once the shot leaves the barrel the shooter has no control over it so saying rendig on 6 for BS3 and 5 for BS4 etc is stupid.

I think that proposed rule is to show that better snipers are better at taking certain shots like armor weakpoints, ammo storages, etc

No idea why you made that comment, it seems pretty obvious

the reason that sniper weapons dont hit on a 2+ like in the 4thed is because it doesnt matter how accurate the rifle is,if the shooter cant aim then its useless.also sniper weapons get rending because thy can pick out vehicle fire slits and stuff,not because there tearing trough armour./in the same way they have rending against infantry to symbolize exposed areas