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I think that snipers with BS 4+ should wound on a 3+ and then BS 5 be a 5+ rending, BS 6 and higher be 4+

like i said before,All sniper weapons are strength 3 andthe4+ to wound is games workshpo giving scouts and ratlings the chance to woundwraithlords and c'tan.leave the rifles alone!!

Deadshot wrote:like i said before,All sniper weapons are strength 3 andthe4+ to wound is games workshpo giving scouts and ratlings the chance to woundwraithlords and c'tan.leave the rifles alone!!

Are you saying rifles are fine as they are now? Because right now they're barely taken. Most of the time its just for a backfield objective grabber

That's because Scouts w/sniper rifles suck, not because sniper rifles themselves entirely suck.

Because I know many Guard players who love their little bastard ratlings.

if you look at todays military thats what their for.back up and covering fire.would you rather have an assualt squad or HQ unit sitting on it?

How about this, sniper's up the firer's BS by 1 and get to pick who you shoot on the roll of a 6 to hit. Vindicare would be excluded, as would special characters.

I think it is a simple fix that would work.

But then the Vindicare's Deadshot ability would be redundant!!As would the flukey crap known as telion

Deadshot wrote:But then the Vindicare's Deadshot ability would be redundant!!As would the flukey crap known as telion

Well technically Telion doesnt have a sniper rifle

Correct he has a stalker pattern bolter which is a lot better than a sniper rifle.

pretty much the same,but better vs low toghness modals and vehicles

Deadshot wrote:But then the Vindicare's Deadshot ability would be redundant!!As would the flukey crap known as telion

Did you read my post? Vindicare/ Telion would not be changed. I think my change would be fine. Telion/ the Vindicare would still be the best snipers out there, but they wouldn't be leaving everyone out so far in the dust.

yes i read it but still disagree as the assassin has been training sincethe age of 10 and telion is a flukey

Deadshot wrote:if you look at todays military thats what their for.back up and covering fire.would you rather have an assualt squad or HQ unit sitting on it?

Um. No.

The days of snipers sitting in foxholes ended with Vietnam. In the second Iraqi war Marine Scout Snipers like Jack Coughlin traded static emplacements for Humvees and covered more ground than Cavalry divisions as they shot and hauled ass to various vantage points all over the cities the Marines steamrolled. They moved with the main forces and did infinitely more, providing both actionable intelligence and surgical bullets. In fluctuating urban combat the snipers were lethal and Jack Coughlin did not hide his distaste of someone he named "Officer Bob" in his book who thought the snipers were there to babysit him and support from the rear.

In addition, if you're using snipers as covering fire you're misapplying your light machine guns. 'Nuff said.

dont use lmg,use assault cannon/minigun

Deadshot wrote:yes i read it but still disagree as the assassin has been training sincethe age of 10 and telion is a flukey

So because of extensive training, how would you change the Vindicare? Let's look at a worst case scenario here, where realism clashes with the game.

Generally the targets of opportunity start up top and work their way down. Officers and other authoritative figures. Crewmembers. Radios (yes, radios above the people that use them). Etc.

Let's apply that to the game. Snipers would start with the officers. The guy with the standard. The medic. The guy with a plasma gun. Then he'd move on to the grunts. Screw the grunts, he'd eliminate the sergeant. Usually the most tooled up guy within a squad who gives them a leadership bonus so they don't turn tail when guns are pointed their way. With one wound models like Telion, Harker or Bastonne that are 50-odd points, people get pissy. Next up would be the special weapons. Then they'd just switch squads, rinse and repeat. No need to kill the rest of the grunts, their morale is done.

One sniper would be one sergeant/etc per turn. But wait! you can have squads of snipers! You can just hear those sergeant's stripes being torn off the uniform.

Vindicares train a lot. We get it. But being able to pick and choose who goes is disturbingly overpowered. Telion is flukey? How so? He seems purely fluffy, with some uses if people choose to take him. For 50 points I'd rather include another terminator and give my scout sergeant a combi-weapon or perhaps expand my command squad.

sorry i did not point it out properly,what i mean is that it takes awy from the assassin's amazing snping ability by giving it to lucky ratlings.so it doesnt take away abilities but lessens the impact of his Deadshot/deadshot gives emphasis to his abilty and lucky rolls negate this

Deadshot wrote:dont use lmg,use assault cannon/minigun

Did you read my post? :(

I'll try to break my text up more.

We're in the context of today's military. Now, covering fire can be done with M16s. The point is to keep people's heads down so they aren't shooting at troops that may need to reposition themselves. Bolters. Lasguns. Shuriken Cannons. They are all capable of covering fire in 40k. I'm using LMGs in the previous example because they're quite capable of sustained covering fire, using 3 to 5 round bursts (now let's see, what's 100 divided by 4?), for a longer period of time (people do need to reload their rifles, after all).

Lastly, miniguns really aren't as common as you think... Unfortunately the handheld minigun doesn't come out until Skynet invades and creates a Terminator to carry it...

then lets get it built..lol

Deadshot wrote:sorry i did not point it out properly,what i mean is that it takes awy from the assassin's amazing snping ability by giving it to lucky ratlings.so it doesnt take away abilities but lessens the impact of his Deadshot/deadshot gives emphasis to his abilty and lucky rolls negate this

As opposed to his selection of ammo in addition to the ability to choose who he kills? This is improving sniper rifles, not nerfing the Vindicare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:then lets get it built..lol

Lol! You so funny, Docta Jones.

Moving back on topic... ^

i didnt mean it nerfed the assassin.he is fine if your only looking at him,but nex to 10 scouts with snpes that have the potential to kill 10 guys of your choice,or cause an IC to take 10 saves,as opposed to th assassin who can what,take 2 wounds in one shot,

Deadshot wrote:i didnt mean it nerfed the assassin.he is fine if your only looking at him,but nex to 10 scouts with snpes that have the potential to kill 10 guys of your choice,or cause an IC to take 10 saves,as opposed to th assassin who can what,take 2 wounds in one shot,

Excellent, we've established ten men with sniper rifles is more lethal than a man with one.

(1/6)^10. Do the math. Small number.

but normally they wouldnt because the scouts ten shots would be allocated to big units of boys or the squad so the character whos better is unharmed.tha assassin is created with the purpose of ignoring this and to do this would make him less of an asset

Deadshot wrote:but normally they wouldnt because the scouts ten shots would be allocated to big units of boys or the squad so the character whos better is unharmed.tha assassin is created with the purpose of ignoring this and to do this would make him less of an asset

What are you arguing at this point? That sniper rifles can't be fixed because just about everything that would fix them would make the Vindicare LESS of an asset?

Fantastic!

Oh, I see this getting locked...

SNIPERS WOULD ONLY PICK THEIR TARGETS ON THE ROLE OF A 6! 10 men are not going to roll 10 6s. The vindicare would still be MUCH better, but snipers in general would get a nice buff.

Happygrunt wrote:Oh, I see this getting locked...

SNIPERS WOULD ONLY PICK THEIR TARGETS ON THE ROLE OF A 6! 10 men are not going to roll 10 6s. The vindicare would still be MUCH better, but snipers in general would get a nice buff.

Don't bother. It's a lost cause.

tahts not true.you can get 10 6s,even 100 6s.they dont converse saying "no one get 6s because hes an unlucky tosser who only gets 1 6 a year"

Deadshot wrote:tahts not true.you can get 10 6s,even 100 6s.they dont converse saying "no one get 6s because hes an unlucky tosser who only gets 1 6 a year"

Yes, it is. Do the math.

Ten scouts with sniper rifles using this proposed rule roll to hit. Everyone has a 1/6 chance to hit. Now, for an entire 10 man squad to be able to choose who they hit that'd mean 10 sixes would have to be rolled. 1/6 to the tenth power because each roll is independent. That's a 1 in over 60 million chance.

If you're disputing people rolling sixes, which I believe you are, then there's seriously no point continuing this because I'll end up getting a PM from Insaniak after I verbally demolish you in the most profane way I know.

Yes. You love Vindicares, as your name shows. Great! We're not trying to nerf them. They're still a better option than a squad of these guys (especially 10 scouts at BS 3; who would bother doing that?). Why? Because of their ammunition.

Oh, I guess I didn't take into account the sergeant has a BS of 4 in my above math. It's still supremely long odds.

So what you're saying is that with a lucky roll, the Vindicare's impact in battle is suddenly lessened.

Alright, let's roll with that for a minute. A lucky roll on the daemon weapon table for a Chaos lord will give him more attacks than Kharn/Abaddon/Daemon Princes etc. Obviously the chaos lord w/ Daemon weapon is a no-brainer and everyone should- oh wait, no one is taking it, because it's crap.

A lucky roll on the ramshackle table for Orks could potentially mean their Trukk will move an extra 6 or more inches before it crashes/explodes/wrecks! Obviously this means it's a far superior choice to the Battlewagon, which doesn't even HAVE a ramshackle table to roll on. Poor battlewagon, who would possibly choose it- oh wait, nevermind.

What you're doing is you're comparing these two abilities in a vacuum. You're not taking into account the BS of the Vindicare, it's special ammunition, the fact that its weapon is AP1, its special rules, its moderate cost, its statline, and any other wargear it has. The fact that you're trying to argue that a lucky roll will immediately nerf the capabilities of the Vindicare is just wrong.

I recommend you stop trying to improve sniper rifles and instead try to give sniper rifles to a unit which isn't Scout Marines

No, Marines are nowhere near a vindicare. Don't even try that comparison. The main advantage Marines have over Assassinorum Operatives is that Marines take less time and effort to train and equip.

Deadshot wrote:

sniping doesnt require any real skill.like other guns its point and shoot.its beeter becuase their more accurate and have telescopic sights.this means that allocation is stupid because thy are not gunning anyone in particular.

Ignorance Is Bliss

You obivously have never even Touched nontheless fired a rifle, give a random person a high powered rifle and draft him into Iraq, Saying
"It is easy, just shoot the head" Would result in a large amount of problems. Snipers have to factor in wind, bullet drop, even humidity because guns are more complicated then you think. Why else do snipers train for (I think) like 3 years. Snipers are elites, picking off machine gunners and enemy leaders. I believe you get your info from games like black ops, Nigh all guns are accurate. The reason terrorists don't fire accuratly is because they have no training whatsoever not because of Ak-47( Look at Spetznaz they are like marksmens with there Ak-74s) Guns arn't really 'Inaccurate' it is just how you fire the weapon.


I like most of the Ideas for snipers on this thread, we have a house rul wounds can be allocated wherever they want, but say a nob is at the back of a mob, he gets a 4+ cover