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TheWildHost wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

sniping doesnt require any real skill.like other guns its point and shoot.its beeter becuase their more accurate and have telescopic sights.this means that allocation is stupid because thy are not gunning anyone in particular.

Ignorance Is Bliss

You obivously have never even Touched nontheless fired a rifle, give a random person a high powered rifle and draft him into Iraq, Saying
"It is easy, just shoot the head" Would result in a large amount of problems. Snipers have to factor in wind, bullet drop, even humidity because guns are more complicated then you think. Why else do snipers train for (I think) like 3 years. Snipers are elites, picking off machine gunners and enemy leaders. I believe you get your info from games like black ops, Nigh all guns are accurate. The reason terrorists don't fire accuratly is because they have no training whatsoever not because of Ak-47( Look at Spetznaz they are like marksmens with there Ak-74s) Guns arn't really 'Inaccurate' it is just how you fire the weapon.


I like most of the Ideas for snipers on this thread, we have a house rul wounds can be allocated wherever they want, but say a nob is at the back of a mob, he gets a 4+ cover

I consider myself a good shot, and have never been formally trained, but I agree. Sniper rifles are not easy guns to use. Guns are not easy to use. The mechanics of a gun, easy. How ever, I would want a military sniper over some deer hunter in my army every day of the week.

reading that last page was actually painful, i did a test game last night i threw away the FOC,took 3 guard special weapons teams and a PCS with 1 sniper (to give 10 in total 3 in each SWT), i then put this against 40 orks led by 4 nobz and pust put them into a discordant, hard to move, mess, over the course of the battle killed 14 orks and 1 nob with the snipers, however i only rolled 3 sixes for wound allocation choosing the same nob 3 times in order to kill him, eventually my SWT ended up in close combat and where minced, with the exception on my power weapon captain who killed 6 orks and a nob, but firstly that wasnt sniping secondly he died a painful death. i know one game doesnt mean much but id say i did a reasonable job, that in 7 i managed to roll 3 sixes with 10 snipers and they killed 1 model using this allocation. so shove that up your vindicare

Fixing to say it but Wildhost said it for me. Yes you can do some amazing things, and there are plenty of sniper tales from every theater of war, but it takes years of training and skill to be a master of the weapon.

My suggestion is this, instead of the rending rule, award an auto glance on vechiles when you roll the 6. And allow armor saves, but have that 6 inflict the Instant death rule. For the sheer fact even a Space Marine will die from a bullet to the brain. Heck even most Nids die from headshots. About the only thing that I think could survive a headshot is daemons.

Also snipers only cause pinning if their unit is in cover, and the pinning from sniper weapons overrules fearless/etc. As often times no matter how fearless you are, you stop and wonder why you are covered in brain bits, and your buddie's head is missing from his shoulders. Also fearless units would stop just to try and find the sniper to go and get him. You know the whole 'look for the muzzle flash' deal.

though i doubt something like tyranids in synapse and orks consisting of 15+ modals would care about that.to represent this their giving them fearless.they probably do have fear but carnifexes dont care about mortars and snipers,their too big,not that fexes could be pinned,its just an example

kenshin620 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:
once the shot leaves the barrel the shooter has no control over it so saying rendig on 6 for BS3 and 5 for BS4 etc is stupid.

I think that proposed rule is to show that better snipers are better at taking certain shots like armor weakpoints, ammo storages, etc

No idea why you made that comment, it seems pretty obvious

Well you know, those bullets have a mind of their own. As soon as they reach .13 milli seconds their hormones kick in and they just go all over the place. Why you can't even keep up with the new fads they invent these days!

(I know this was a page 1 quote, but my joke is still relevant! Right?)

Some good ideas here. As well as a rebalance of sniper weapons in general, personally I would like to see units targetting the snipers having to take a sight range night-fighting type test in order to shoot at them if the snipers are in any sort of coversave-granting cover, representing their ability to conceal themselves.
I think the old Catachans supplement had something similar.

Deadshot wrote:though i doubt something like tyranids in synapse and orks consisting of 15+ modals would care about that.to represent this their giving them fearless.they probably do have fear but carnifexes dont care about mortars and snipers,their too big,not that fexes could be pinned,its just an example

It doesn't matter how big you are or if your skull is thick enough to block a shot. If someone shoots a very large bullet at very high speeds at your head, you're going to notice. It's not so much about fearless as it is about reacting to damage and incoming fire.

And lastly..

They're all snipers, but their only strength is sitting on cover over there and shooting things.
They're=/=Their=/=There.

Daedricbob wrote:Some good ideas here. As well as a rebalance of sniper weapons in general, personally I would like to see units targetting the snipers having to take a sight range night-fighting type test in order to shoot at them if the snipers are in any sort of coversave-granting cover, representing their ability to conceal themselves.
I think the old Catachans supplement had something similar.

Don't Have my good old 'Dar codex , but I am pretty sure rangers/pathfinders have something like that. Even if they arn't in cover. Maybe im thinking of something else or a difffrent rule though

Just for clarification on everything (easy to lose track after page 2)..

On a to hit roll of 6 models with sniper rifles may choose who they shoot at. In addition, units wishing to shoot at a model with a sniper rifle in cover must use the night fight rules to see if they can find the well-concealed marksman.

That sound about right? I might actually take this to my group.

The only problem I have with it( As an eldar player) on a hit roll of six(Sometimes five) im AP1 so effects stacking could get a little OP

Maybe you roll a seperate dice before rolling to wound (Or maybe before to hit)and On a 6 you choose

Wild Host, it was on a roll of 6 to hit you pick your target.

I am still all for making snipers give +1 BS to the wielder, but that is just personal taste.

that on its own isnt too bad,ill let that go,all it means is vindicares are now BS9!

and yes i love assassins,because today my vindicare took away the 3++ save of a enemy chapter master with a special upgrage for the campaign we wer playing,the black sword.1 modal can take it for free,and if using it you get your base S and A doubled,its a power weapon and ignores any rule that negates instant death,and gives you +2 woundsie eternal warrior.so shield breaker,lose 3++,orbital strike relay,.was really fuuny because he had joined a unit of possessed,so when draigo assaulted,he was strength 10,meaning he inflicted instant death without activateing his sword,so i could use FLAME as well as the previous commune.

Happygrunt wrote:Wild Host, it was on a roll of 6 to hit you pick your target.

I am still all for making snipers give +1 BS to the wielder, but that is just personal taste.

Eldar rangers already have a special skill for Ranger Long Rifle that is triggered on 6 on to hit (5+ for pathfinders) that makes the shot AP1. This is in addition to normal sniper rending.
Wild Host was referring to this skill. Those two would stack and may become bit too powerful without testing / thinking this through.

htj wrote:What I would do is allow wounds caused by weapons with the 'Sniper' rule to be allocated by the shooting player. They're snipers, after all.

Yea!

or

Instant Death.

Check out the 6th ed rumors, a lot of them are centered around sniper rifles. The main rumor is every other wound that snipers inflict are allocated by the sniper's player just like a vindicare.

back to my earlier posts,it just makes him redundant

Deadshot wrote:back to my earlier posts,it just makes him redundant

Dear. God.

Back to my earlier posts, no it fething doesn't.

I'm unsubbing this thread at this point.

10 ratlings kill 5 guys a turn,don't know the statistics its just an example.

turn 1-5 ramdomers drop.
turn 2-5 saves on warboss

Vindicare

turn 1-1 guy either dies,takes 2 wounds or loses wargear that gives an invulnerable
Turn 2-same thing

ratlings beat assassin in this case.

So, you have played the game before right? Vindicares have special ammo. They can be GAME CHANGEING. Oh, now your thunderwolf cav is missing a storm shield, Oh, that same guy is now dead turn 2 (Bad example, I know, work with me here). VINDICARES WOULD NOT BE BROKEN! If you only look at killing power, then you seem to be either A. Very New or B. Very Bad. Would the vindicare be not as OMGSUPERGOODIWANTTOTAKEITALLTHETIMEBANNANSAUCE? Yes. Would he be as useless as you are suggesting? FETH NO! You can still do things that normal snipers can't do for I am willing to bet less points.

what im saying is that assassins,on a chart of skill should be

here.

and others should be...

























here

The rule of cool only goes so far. But now you are arguing fluff for game mechanics, which never ever works. The outline for snipers we have made still keeps them balanced in game terms but makes them more useful.

not fluff for rules.


the sniper rules are fair,they have a 50:50 to wound,which is much more than other S3 weapons get.I think in times like these you should thank the emperor you got any snipers at all(poor necrons,nids,orks)

I, at this point, don't even know what you are talking about.

the thing that makes the vindicare better all the other snipers is thathe chooses his target.if all snipers couldf do that even 1/6 of the time,then he becomes costly at 145pts,whereas 10 scouts with sniper rifles cost 140 and the sg could even get amelta bomb for the same points as 1 little modal.

Dear lord Deadshot, please use proper punctuation and capitalization.

Sorry,here in UK it's 3.30a.m. so commas and caps lock is not my most pressing concern.

Deadshot wrote:what im saying is that assassins,on a chart of skill should be

here.

and others should be...

























here

I don't understand your ungodly biasly love for the vindacare

Rangers usaly train themselves and are awsome snipers. Quit thinking vindacares are the ONLY GOOD SNIPERS! I mean c'mon dude my snipers, and my friends snipers are not good enough, bragging and being a whiny little bitch isn't helping us get any construtive ideas in the thread.
Rico, please come back, you had some decent ideas and we need all the brainpower we can get

Personal attacks are against DakkaDakka rules. Please dial back the hostility and participate in the discussion with more civility.

Thanks.

i love the vindicare because he killed bbadon in 2 shots,and continued to,pick out the sorceror in a unit of thousand sons,killed him,and they spent the game rolling 1s across a wrecked fortress of redemption,4ft away from anything.(they mishaped when deep striking and i stuck them ther) and the chaos lord with bloodfeeder,reducing him to 1 wound and making it so draigo only had to attack him once and could focus on the obliterators hammering multimelta shopts into my land raider redeemer.
vindicares are not the only good snipers.rangers are good and so are pathfinders and sniperdrones with railrifles,even though they arnt sniper but are similar,are capable.But the vindicare is the best of the best of the best.he should be exclusive in all matters of weapons,shots and allocation.

Deadshot wrote:i love the vindicare because he killed bbadon in 2 shots,and continued to,pick out the sorceror in a unit of thousand sons,killed him,and they spent the game rolling 1s across a wrecked fortress of redemption,4ft away from anything.(they mishaped when deep striking and i stuck them ther) and the chaos lord with bloodfeeder,reducing him to 1 wound and making it so draigo only had to attack him once and could focus on the obliterators hammering multimelta shopts into my land raider redeemer.
vindicares are not the only good snipers.rangers are good and so are pathfinders and sniperdrones with railrifles,even though they arnt sniper but are similar,are capable.But the vindicare is the best of the best of the best.he should be exclusive in all matters of weapons,shots and allocation.

Alright, let me say a few things.

1. This story. What is the point?
2. This story. Didn't follow.
3. Every time you've posted you've refused to punctuate and capitalize. 0330 can't be the only time you're active on Dakka.
4. You don't know what you're arguing against. You look at what we post and refuse to accept facts. So let me spell this out for you in the simplest manner possible since the Vindicare is apparently the coolest thing since automatic weapons.

The Vindicare. Is not. The only. Good. Sniper unit.

Let me repeat that.

The Vindicare. Is not. The only. Good. Sniper unit.

Breath it in. Let it permeate your thoughts. One more time, all together now.

The Vindicare. Is not. The only. Good. Sniper unit.

Coming full circle. Everyone knows you love Vindicare assassins. But you can't keep putting up stories from where he's worked for you. This is a thread about making sniper rifles better. I'm seriously considering creating a thread to nerf Vindicares just to troll you, but I won't.

The Vindicare will still be the single best sniper option out there. Why? He ALWAYS gets to pick where his shots go. He ALWAYS gets to choose ammo. The Vindicare will ALWAYS be the better option (than, say, a squad of scouts at BS 3) against armor because he has ammo specifically for that.

Here I am trying to use reason, but I fear this is a bit long for your attention span. No, mods, that is not a personal attack, that is a statement of fact that he doesn't seem to fully read through replies to his arguments. We both know it's true.

I'll leave you with an unfriendly reminder. The chances of a full squad of 10 scouts getting to choose their target is a 1 in 60 million chance. This isn't people being unlucky or lucky. Those are the odds. And at BS3, the scouts in general will get to fire twice a game (6 turn game).

Those are the facts. This is my argument. Please, please, fething PLEASE post a rational response.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:10 ratlings kill 5 guys a turn,don't know the statistics its just an example.

turn 1-5 ramdomers drop.
turn 2-5 saves on warboss

Vindicare

turn 1-1 guy either dies,takes 2 wounds or loses wargear that gives an invulnerable
Turn 2-same thing

ratlings beat assassin in this case.

You're comparing 10 ratlings to one Vindicare.

Of course the Ratlings are going to kill more guys. Why? Well, the fact they have nine more rifles is a solid start.