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So, obviously, bolters are rare. They're hard to produce, hazardous to use and generally impractical (high recoil, heavy, unnecassary power).
But then heavy bolters, which are even bigger, more powerful and even harder to produce are readily available to pretty much any tank in the Imperium. Literally, any vehicle except a Rhino. Why?

Why do most modern tanks have a heavy machine gun?

Protection against infantry and light vehicles.

They are far more practical when mounted on a vehicle as opposed to being wielded by a man.

TrollPie wrote:So, obviously, bolters are rare. They're hard to produce, hazardous to use and generally impractical (high recoil, heavy, unnecassary power).
But then heavy bolters, which are even bigger, more powerful and even harder to produce are readily available to pretty much any tank in the Imperium. Literally, any vehicle except a Rhino. Why?

Because they're not actually harder to produce, and nor are Bolters.

The Bolters used by the Astartes aren't "hard to produce", they're just generally produced by the Chapter proper. It gives the weapon a history, rather than a serial number. It's like the difference between an off the shelf rifle and a rifle custombuilt for the individual who will be using it.

I think the question was why a heavy bolter instead of a stubber or autocannon. I'll just make something up about how it fills a need for anti-heavy infantry firepower, if you had a mobile armored force, you'd kind of be stuck with just the flashlights from the troop carriers.

In reality though, I think it's just the rule of cool. Plus bolters are the signature Imperial weapon.

Heavy Bolters in the sponsons and the like are because they can fulfill both a light-anti vehicle or anti-infantry role, and by the standards of sponson weaponry it's fairly easy to transport the ammunition.

An autocannon would require larger cases of ammunition and have a slower rate of fire, and a heavy stubber just wouldn't have the firepower to cut it as a sponson weapon.

I think the TC's point is that one common justification for bolters not being more mainstream is that they're harder and/or more difficult to employ in terms of logistics. This is contradictory in a universe where lowly PDFs have heavy bolters mounted on so many of their vehicles and on stationary turrets and such.

Of course, that's putting mass-stamped bolt weapons in the same category as Astartes-issue ones, but I believe the point still stands.

I think the main reason bolt weaponry isn't used wholesale is because:

1) a bolter is a fair bit heavier than a lasrifle

2) the recoil is much harder to deal with

3) solid ammo is harder to transport over lasclips

now looking at this from an infantry perspective this is obvious however when you look at it from a vehicle viewpoint the first 2 are pretty much irrelevant and the 3rd point matters a whole lot less.

Ronin-Sage wrote:I think the TC's point is that one common justification for bolters not being more mainstream is that they're harder and/or more difficult to employ in terms of logistics. This is contradictory in a universe where lowly PDFs have heavy bolters mounted on so many of their vehicles and on stationary turrets and such.

Of course, that's putting mass-stamped bolt weapons in the same category as Astartes-issue ones, but I believe the point still stands.

Actually, the "common justification for bolters not being more mainstream" is that they require a large amount of logistics and they may not be the best thing to have floating around in huge numbers. The threat of the Astartes arriving is what keeps many Governors from going rogue, and if you have PDFs equipped with huge numbers of them that threat of the Astartes becomes neglible.

Guard fluff used to see veteran units every so often that used boltguns rather than Lasguns, but it was supposed to be a mark of distinction.

Some books also suggest that bolt weapons also employ more complicated mechanics and that they jam easily when not properly maintained - which is something that a common Guardsman apparently cannot do, especially when his unit has been engaged over several months of uninterrupted warfare. Compare this to Marines or Sororitas who simply drop down somewhere, kill some stuff and then return to their base to have an army of skilled servants swarm over their valuable gear.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:3) solid ammo is harder to transport over lasclips

Not to mention that solid ammo requires a steady supply chain. With las weapon power packs, all you need is a portable generator with a charger terminal. Or, hell, a camp fire, if you're in a tight spot.

Ronin-Sage wrote:I think the TC's point is that one common justification for bolters not being more mainstream is that they're harder and/or more difficult to employ in terms of logistics.

... in comparison to lasguns, yes.

TrollPie wrote:So, obviously, bolters are rare.

In comparison to Lasgun, yes.

They're hard to produce, hazardous to use and generally impractical (high recoil, heavy, unnecassary power).

Not that much hard to produce or wield. But they are used by Space Marines and Sisters of Battle. And since their numbers are not so great bolters are rare in comparison to Autoguns and Lasguns.

But then heavy bolters, which are even bigger, more powerful and even harder to produce are readily available to pretty much any tank in the Imperium. Literally, any vehicle except a Rhino. Why?

Because it's much simpler to mount it on the vehicle, hence today 7.92 and .50 call machine guns are rare among infantry and they are on almost every vehicle. And Heavy Bolters mounted on Leman Russ are not the same like those yielded by Astartes. Like SOB and Marine bolter is not the same.

Brother Coa wrote:And Heavy Bolters mounted on Leman Russ are not the same like those yielded by Astartes. Like SOB and Marine bolter is not the same.

Only insofar as Astartes weaponry tends to sport additional armour to increase resistance against combat stress, of course. There's no difference in ammunition, though actual performance may vary from pattern to pattern, as well as any additional features (such as palm sensors on the grip identifying authorized/unauthorized users, or an internal auto-repair mechanism).

Lynata wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And Heavy Bolters mounted on Leman Russ are not the same like those yielded by Astartes. Like SOB and Marine bolter is not the same.

Only insofar as Astartes weaponry tends to sport additional armour to increase resistance against combat stress, of course. There's no difference in ammunition, though actual performance may vary from pattern to pattern, as well as any additional features (such as palm sensors on the grip identifying authorized/unauthorized users, or an internal auto-repair mechanism).

I thought we discussed in Melisia's thread "Recoil of a Boltgun" that Sisters and Marines use same ammo but different types of bolter?
Because no Human alive can fire Astartes bolter without shattering arm or something...

This question is a little bit like asking "why are iPads expensive and rare" when a desktop with more power is cheaper?

Not all tech gets tougher as scale goes up. Heavy bolters might simply work more consistently than boltguns.

As stated, there are a lot of reasons bolters are rare, from higher unit cost, to difficulties firing them, to supply chain issues, to prestige.

There is historical basis for this, too. The german army of WWII used old bolt action rifels, not because they couldn't build semi-automatics like the Garand, but because they felt the squad's firepower can primarily from the machine guns, and the riflemen were mostly support.

Brother Coa: The standard-issue Astartes boltgun is the Godwyn pattern. Sororitas use a modified version called the Godwyn-Deaz pattern, which is typically longer and more rifle-like than the Godwyn pattern, based on the models and etc.

Astartes boltguns don't have the recoil-reducing features that boltguns made for unaugmented humans have, so it's quite risky for a human to fire them-- without augmentation at least. A bionic arm would be enough, as would power armor, or combat drugs.

As for ammunition, all standard boltguns use .75 caliber, but not all ammunition of the same caliber is the same. Magnum .45 rounds compared to normal .45 for example. Marine rounds are likely magnum compared to guard rounds.

Brother Coa wrote:I thought we discussed in Melisia's thread "Recoil of a Boltgun" that Sisters and Marines use same ammo but different types of bolter?

No worries, the clarification was just to prevent a flawed interpretation of your statement.

(though I have read that at least one pattern of boltgun - the Mars Gamma - was actually issued to both the Astartes and Sororitas, if only on a trial-basis)

Brother Coa wrote:Because no Human alive can fire Astartes bolter without shattering arm or something...

I have yet to see any studio material actually stating or even suggesting this. I know some licensed material claims it, but we also have licensed material stating the opposite, so ... I'll just go with common sense and how it looks like in the GW books.

When there are some human Guardsmen that can operate a heavy bolter solo and unbraced out of the stand, I just don't see why they should have a problem with a Marine gun that is both smaller and lighter and fires a smaller caliber that also does less damage. Just doesn't add up in my mind. From how GW described bolt weapons, the problem with them isn't any supposed recoil, it's their general weight and unwieldiness.

Lynata wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I thought we discussed in Melisia's thread "Recoil of a Boltgun" that Sisters and Marines use same ammo but different types of bolter?

No worries, the clarification was just to prevent a flawed interpretation of your statement.

(though I have read that at least one pattern of boltgun - the Mars Gamma - was actually issued to both the Astartes and Sororitas, if only on a trial-basis)

Brother Coa wrote:Because no Human alive can fire Astartes bolter without shattering arm or something...

I have yet to see any studio material actually stating or even suggesting this. I know some licensed material claims it, but we also have licensed material stating the opposite, so ... I'll just go with common sense and how it looks like in the GW books.

When there are some human Guardsmen that can operate a heavy bolter solo and unbraced out of the stand, I just don't see why they should have a problem with a Marine gun that is both smaller and lighter and fires a smaller caliber that also does less damage. Just doesn't add up in my mind. From how GW described bolt weapons, the problem with them isn't any supposed recoil, it's their general weight and unwieldiness.

Those are not astartes Heavy Bolters they are fitted with the recoil dampening gear that the astartes don't need. A gaurdsman couldn't pick up a marines boltgun and fire it without breaking an arm.

Nicholas wrote:Those are not astartes Heavy Bolters they are fitted with the recoil dampening gear that the astartes don't need. A gaurdsman couldn't pick up a marines boltgun and fire it without breaking an arm.

You don't know that, though. As far as I'm aware (and please do correct me if you know of actual GW books dealing with this), the whole argument is based on the supposition that Astartes guns absolutely have to have a bigger kick and potentially even do more damage (the latter is actually clearly contradicted by Codex material), else they are apparently "less awesome". It's the same with lots of people claiming Marines are 8 or 9 feet high when GW says that the average is 7. Part of a very resilient mythos, I reckon.

There is no studio material suggesting such difference between Astartes and non-Astartes weapons. I know that FFG's RPG claims there is, but I guess this is because Abnett wrote a lot for it, and in his novels, Marines are also way above the size given by GW. For the record and just to name one of the licensed sources suggesting the opposite, the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer states that normal humans are completely fine using such weapons - they're just better off with single shots, as the book says you shouldn't use the automatic mode unless you are a Marine or employ enhancements (bionics, power armour). I find that far more believable and fitting to GW's studio material.

Though I have to admit that I wouldn't categorically exclude the possibility of differences in recoil compensation, mind you. Just saying that I'm not yet convinced due to the lack of hints or evidence. I also vaguely recall (long time ago) a Codex including a short story about an Apothecary recruiting new neophytes from a feral world, and they had the youngsters shoot their bolters to see who makes it through without injuries as part of the trial.

Also, there's GW's own Inquisitor RPG, where Marines and normal humans actually do use the exact same patterns of bolt weapons.

PS: I also don't think the average Guardsman could fire a heavy bolter without support, but clearly there is at least one character in the canon who can - I'm merely suggesting that in this aspect the "gap" isn't near as big as some people suggest. Same issue as with the height, basically.

I agree the difference isn't that great as one shot shattering an arm, but I could see a human arm shattering trying to rapid fire an astartes boltgun. Which is why we see Commissars using bolt pistols. Heavy bolters are normally manned by two people or mounted on tanks so the difference between a marine one and a gaurd one would be minimal.

Lynata wrote:

Nicholas wrote:Those are not astartes Heavy Bolters they are fitted with the recoil dampening gear that the astartes don't need. A gaurdsman couldn't pick up a marines boltgun and fire it without breaking an arm.

You don't know that, though. As far as I'm aware (and please do correct me if you know of actual GW books dealing with this), the whole argument is based on the supposition that Astartes guns absolutely have to have a bigger kick and potentially even do more damage (the latter is actually clearly contradicted by Codex material), else they are apparently "less awesome". It's the same with lots of people claiming Marines are 8 or 9 feet high when GW says that the average is 7. Part of a very resilient mythos, I reckon.

There is no studio material suggesting such difference between Astartes and non-Astartes weapons. I know that FFG's RPG claims there is, but I guess this is because Abnett wrote a lot for it, and in his novels, Marines are also way above the size given by GW. For the record and just to name one of the licensed sources suggesting the opposite, the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer states that normal humans are completely fine using such weapons - they're just better off with single shots, as the book says you shouldn't use the automatic mode unless you are a Marine or employ enhancements (bionics, power armour). I find that far more believable and fitting to GW's studio material.

Though I have to admit that I wouldn't categorically exclude the possibility of differences in recoil compensation, mind you. Just saying that I'm not yet convinced due to the lack of hints or evidence. I also vaguely recall (long time ago) a Codex including a short story about an Apothecary recruiting new neophytes from a feral world, and they had the youngsters shoot their bolters to see who makes it through without injuries as part of the trial.

Also, there's GW's own Inquisitor RPG, where Marines and normal humans actually do use the exact same patterns of bolt weapons.

PS: I also don't think the average Guardsman could fire a heavy bolter without support, but clearly there is at least one character in the canon who can - I'm merely suggesting that in this aspect the "gap" isn't near as big as some people suggest. Same issue as with the height, basically.

That was exactly what I meant, I only shortened the story. Ordinary Human can't use Astartes boltgun of full auto. As for semi auto it's the same as firing grenade launcher, slow but deadly.

Nicholas wrote:I agree the difference isn't that great as one shot shattering an arm, but I could see a human arm shattering trying to rapid fire an astartes boltgun. Which is why we see Commissars using bolt pistols.

The pistols and the boltguns use the same ammunition, though. Provided that the internal mechanisms work the same (apart from the added automatic fire mode), there would be no change in recoil either.

That said, I can very much agree with your assessment, though I would extend it to all automatic bolt weapons in general, given that GW's own RPG makes no distinction between the two types in that regard. However, whilst there is no actual studio evidence to supports this, I "feel" that a moderately strong recoil is warranted by sheer style - whilst it can still be compensated by various augmentations (bionics, power armour) or mutations (Ogryn).
In short, I like how the IIUM sums it up, but the relative lack of studio material on the subject will mean that there remain a lot of personal interpretations concerning the details. Amongst the players just as much as amongst the authors who are writing the licensed material.

Brother Coa: Gotcha.

The fact of the matter remains, boltguns are used regularly by ordinary, unaugmented humans, but their use is not widespread. Guard officers, Adeptus Arbites, and few others who aren't in power armor have access to them. This probably has less to do with recoil or ease of use, and more to do with maintenance and logistics, and probably manufacture as well. Not that bolters are especially hard, or that maintenance is impossibly difficult, but when you're equipping men on the scale of the IG and the PDFs, you need to think simple, rugged, and cheap, and you need to minimize the amount of ammo you have to move. This only becomes more entrenched once their limited manufacture and issue makes bolters and bolt pistols status symbols and badges of office.

All those are less of a concern for heavy bolters on tanks, where you've already got more substantial supply lines just to keep the vehicles fueled, much less armed. You're mounting your heavy bolter on a big vehicle that already requires considerable maintenance, even as rugged as the Imperium builds them. The fact that heavy bolters are so prevalent among armored vehicles actually eases logistical concerns through commonality. The biggest concern is really designing the vehicle to have adequate firepower within the limited space available. The heavy bolter definitely wins out over the heavy stubber, the autocannon, the multilaser, and so on.

The best explanation I've heard is that bolter ammo requires more miniaturization than its heavy variant. Just like in real life miniaturization is more difficult and expensive.

I have to agree on the logistics issue.

Lasgun, incredibly easy to manufacture, maintain, easily replaced, no recoil and more importantly the ammo consisted of a couple of large batteries. Bolter ammo would be huge and heavy, so where a guardsman can carry 3-4 lasgun cells he may only be able to carry 1-2 bolter clips.

On the argument of 'marines/sobs/guard use different types of bolters, but the codexes/RPG books say they all use the same' I think this isn't so much a background reflection, they just have the same stats for all bolt weapon types so you don't have to remember 3 weapon stats all called 'bolter', it's a simplification for sake of streamlining the rules and doesn't have much bearing on weather a SoB carries a godwyn or godwyn-reaz pattern bolter.

Leigen_Zero wrote:On the argument of 'marines/sobs/guard use different types of bolters, but the codexes/RPG books say they all use the same' I think this isn't so much a background reflection, they just have the same stats for all bolt weapon types so you don't have to remember 3 weapon stats all called 'bolter', it's a simplification for sake of streamlining the rules and doesn't have much bearing on weather a SoB carries a godwyn or godwyn-reaz pattern bolter.

Nah, it's not just the stats - some Codices' fluff sections specifically point it out that they are on the same level. It's just that not all outsourced licensed material or fans take this into consideration when making comparisons. Basically, I'm just trying to fight a perceived trend to make Marines appear even more superior than they already are by default (also see the Marine height thread to see how opinions deviate from actual GW statements), in doing so playing down other armies beyond the gap dictated by studio material.

As for bolter ammo, I don't think it would be that heavy - the ammunition doesn't look very big (judging by official pictures, a bolt round is ~2x5cm) - but the weapon itself looks like it'd weigh a dozen kilos at least, which is much more than any modern assault rifle does. And of course it all adds up, considering that a Guardsman would still have to carry other gear as well...
I also imagine Guardsmen marching a lot more than the more mobile Marines/Sisters, so heavy weight would seriously hamper their efficiency and slowly steal away their strength!

Lynata wrote:
As for bolter ammo, I don't think it would be that heavy - the ammunition doesn't look very big (judging by official pictures, a bolt round is ~2x5cm) - but the weapon itself looks like it'd weigh a dozen kilos at least, which is much more than any modern assault rifle does. And of course it all adds up, considering that a Guardsman would still have to carry other gear as well...
I also imagine Guardsmen marching a lot more than the more mobile Marines/Sisters, so heavy weight would seriously hamper their efficiency and slowly steal away their strength!

But that's ~2x5cm, in clips of 6-12 (IIRC), and you need enough for a battle.

Lasgun power cells are about 1/2 the size of a bolter clip and contain many many more shots (~40 IIRC) and are just as effective in a typical situation for your average guardsman (i.e. they both take down termagaunts/ork boyz just as well)

Techmarines and their STC's!

Heavy bolters are a heavy weapon so it's not entirely an impractical thing for infantry.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:The fact of the matter remains, boltguns are used regularly by ordinary, unaugmented humans, but their use is not widespread.

... but not the Godwyn pattern. Hell, I doubt a normal human's hands could even comfortably fit around its grip. Keep in mind that there's hundreds if not thousands of patterns of boltguns across the Imperium.

Any source you cite is going to be labeled as non-canon by Lynata, because the codices don't give a damn about this subject, nor do the rulebooks.

Leigen_Zero wrote:On the argument of 'marines/sobs/guard use different types of bolters, but the codexes/RPG books say they all use the same' I think this isn't so much a background reflection, they just have the same stats for all bolt weapon types so you don't have to remember 3 weapon stats all called 'bolter', it's a simplification for sake of streamlining the rules and doesn't have much bearing on weather a SoB carries a godwyn or godwyn-reaz pattern bolter.

Correct. And in the end, the differences are just not enough to bother changing the stats anyway. Hell, Astartes power armor often increases their effective strength by about twenty percent given the various sources that actually talk about the subject (IE ones that Lynata ignotes), and yet an Astartes OUTSIDE of power armor has the same d6 strength value as one inside. The d6 stats are very vague and nebulous things.



As an off topic note:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leigen_Zero wrote:Lasgun power cells are about 1/2 the size of a bolter clip and contain many many more shots (~40 IIRC)

60 is the usual standard.

Leigen_Zero wrote:But that's ~2x5cm, in clips of 6-12 (IIRC), and you need enough for a battle.
Lasgun power cells are about 1/2 the size of a bolter clip and contain many many more shots (~40 IIRC) and are just as effective in a typical situation for your average guardsman (i.e. they both take down termagaunts/ork boyz just as well)

Well, yes, it'd be heavier than lasgun ammo, but not heavy enough to be limited to a single magazine or two.
Overall, yes, of course you'll get way more shots ouf of the same weight in chargepacks than bolter magazines. Like, hundreds of shots more.

Apologies if my statement suggested differently, it was just that you made it sound as if a bolter magazine would weigh several kilos.

For a Guardsman, a bolter would be an extremely situational weapon. It's awesome for the kind of short duration engagement that Marines and Sisters specialize in, but maintenance, logistics and weight simply turn it into a "tactically unwise choice" when you have to lug it around for weeks or months during a prolonged campaign (which the IG often gets stuck in). Apart from also being more expensive in production, I suppose, requiring more manpower, more delicate tools and finer material...

Melissia wrote:

Spoiler:

Also Lynata, you keep claiming the solo pattern boltgun is superior... but no. It's actually considered generally inferior in the lore; essentially a heretek took a bolter shell and built a weapon around trying to fire that with as little mechanics as possible, keeping everything as simple as possible and essentially creating a bolt-action bolter, which can only ever be fired in single fire, and has 1/3rd of the ammunition capacity-- and it's also heavier than the standard boltgun, as it weighs the same with a full magazine despite having less ammunition.