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Melissia wrote:Also, from what I gather, Marines essentially use magnum ammunition compared to the normal ammunition in most "human" bolters.

Its a semantic point, but I imagine that marine bolters being the most prevelant bolter, its ammo is the convention, while what's used by normal humans is a reduced bolter shell. "Magnum" shells are probably more like some of the special ammunitions that rely on kinetics and not necessarily anything fancy like plasma/posion/toxin/explosive/flachetter/etc. in its warhead. But like I said semantic, with a bit of "chicken or the egg" tossed in.

I will accept ammunition differences between Astartes and normal humans the day that studio material actually hints at them. To date, GW sources flat out state they use the same stuff, it's just FFG's RPG inventing things. And it's by far not the only case where they do this.

Andy Hoare, former GW designer, now writing for FFG wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.

Thanks, but I'll stick with the less silly studio material. >_>

Lynata wrote:I will accept ammunition differences between Astartes and normal humans the day that studio material actually hints at them. To date, GW sources flat out state they use the same stuff, it's just FFG's RPG inventing things. And it's by far not the only case where they do this.

Whether its a 5.7 or 5.56, a .38 or 9mm, a 40x46mm or a 40x53mm grenade... all the same bullet or warhead... just a different length of brass and whatever amount less gunpowder that allows that reduced length. In real life you also have underpowered loads, where its the same projectile and just a reduced quantity of gun powder in the same casing. This could also be a way bolter weapons mitigate the difficulty average humans have firing bolters; with bolters having warheads greatly mitigates the need for velociy that you sacrifice.

To be such a fundamentalist in your interpretation of a fictional universe is silly. The GW writers are simply not diversely experianced enough to ever write so thoroughly on different subjects so specifically as to address these types of things. They have no need to write so technically and it such detail to ever address these types of omissions.

They also don't care enough.

Anything is easy to produce if you have the mass production capabilities, and these weapons have been mass produced for upwards of 10,000 years.

Heavy Bolters are most certaintly made more often then bolters as they are on just about everything.


Its not that bolters are hard to produce, its more that they aren't as practical as the lasgun.

Bolters are rare because the imperium chooses it to be that way. they could arm everyone with a bolter(for humans of course), but it would put massive strains on their supply lines. having to ship billions of bolter rounds to ever freakin warzone. its easier to ship 1 load of lasgun power packs and not have to send any more. it frees up space for food, ammo for guns that do require solid ammo, or more guardsmen.

aka_mythos wrote:In real life you also have underpowered loads, where its the same projectile and just a reduced quantity of gun powder in the same casing. This could also be a way bolter weapons mitigate the difficulty average humans have firing bolters; with bolters having warheads greatly mitigates the need for velociy that you sacrifice.

That's the thing. Why do you even believe that there is anything that needs to be mitigated or sacrificed?

Let's look at a few facts here: We already have guns in real life capable of lobbing a caliber 0.9 solid steel projectile over a distance of 100 meters with enough force to punch through a motor block. 40k bolters add a miniature rocket launcher to the projectile which activates as soon as the bolt leaves the barrel and accelerates the munition further. So why exactly should a caliber 0.75 projectile need more kinetic energy than what we already use in RL?

aka_mythos wrote:To be such a fundamentalist in your interpretation of a fictional universe is silly.

Is it? I just don't think that the gap between humans and Marines needs to be widened even more because some people think Astartes are still not "awsum" enough. This is what I think is silly. It's the very same reason for why various fans and even BL writers seem to make Marines bigger and bigger every year, in spite of what the actual GW designers say.

Hell, it's not even an interpretation, it's what is explicitly written in the studio material. In the end, we could cite real life physics and science all day long, but that doesn't change that we're talking about 40k, which is a sci-fi setting set a couple dozen millennia in the future. It stands to reason that mankind would have developed advanced recoil suppression technology, way above what is already available right now (which is sufficient to negate the recoil of an automatic 12 gauge shotgun on autofire almost entirely, I may add).

In short, the only reason for why those guns should be "too much" for normal people is because some fans say so. But that doesn't make it true.

Lynata wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:In real life you also have underpowered loads, where its the same projectile and just a reduced quantity of gun powder in the same casing. This could also be a way bolter weapons mitigate the difficulty average humans have firing bolters; with bolters having warheads greatly mitigates the need for velociy that you sacrifice.

That's the thing. Why do you even believe that there is anything that needs to be mitigated or sacrificed?

Let's look at a few facts here: We already have guns in real life capable of lobbing a caliber 0.9 solid steel projectile over a distance of 100 meters with enough force to punch through a motor block. 40k bolters add a miniature rocket launcher to the projectile which activates as soon as the bolt leaves the barrel and accelerates the munition further. So why exactly should a caliber 0.75 projectile need more kinetic energy than what we already use in RL?

I've fired a fully automatic shotgun with Frag12 it isn't as easy as an automatic rifle or as accurate. Even if we assume a similar caliber as a 12ga shotgun slug, a bolter round would likely have a greater mass to accomodate its capabilities. A bolter as its described, would likely need a larger powder load than a 12ga shell... and that for the same volume may be accomplished by futuristic gun powders... but the heavier mass combined with an increased load would make for a heavier recoil and less controlability than a modern automatic shotgun.

A miniature rocket might be fine for long range shooting, but marines are described as having these armor penetrating capabilities at close ranges... that to me implies the rocket has more to do with improved accuracy through flight corrections, to correct for trajectory drop off due to gravity and wind, and to correct for air resistance and other forms of deceleration such that muzzle velocity is maintained through a greater portion of its flight... thus giving a greater effective range than a shotgun. A bolter likely has a range similar to that of a battle rifle 500-700 yards while a shotgun becomes inaccurate over 100 yards.

Thats also why a bolter would need more kinetic energy, to keep a .75cal projectile flying level for a standard combat range takes something better than a shotgun. Automatic shotguns are already at the limit of controlability for the average person, so a larger heavier projectile at an automatic rate of fire would be very problematic. For a Space Marine no problem.

Lynata wrote:
Is it? I just don't think that the gap between humans and Marines needs to be widened even more because some people think Astartes are still not "awsum" enough. This is what I think is silly. It's the very same reason for why various fans and even BL writers seem to make Marines bigger and bigger every year, in spite of what the actual GW designers say.
...
In short, the only reason for why those guns should be "too much" for normal people is because some fans say so. But that doesn't make it true.

I'm not trying to widen any gaps, I think what BL writes is often time ridiculous and at best meant to be taken as "realistic" in the same way Greek myths of Hercules are. I'm just speaking from my degree of experiance and expertise designing weapon systems. Could there be macguffin to explain controlability?-Yes... but there isn't any one that's been proposed.

Within the setting bolters have been described as difficult for the average person to fire, so its not unreasonable to justify why it is or how in some instances it is mitigated. Could Arnold Schwarzenegger, or anyone else equally as muscular as GW portrays IG be capable of handling a bolter adequetly?-Yes, but they aren't average. Its even been shown certain uber-humans who aren't Space Marines can shoulder and Rambo it up with a bolter... but that's why I prefaced most of what I said as... "for the average person" or "for anyone not wearing power armor"... so as to say humans who can't just aren't average.

aka_mythos wrote:I've fired a fully automatic shotgun with Frag12 it isn't as easy as an automatic rifle or as accurate.

The AA12 example was just to describe how far "we" advanced in terms of recoil compensation even today, implying how much further the Imperium may have come in another 40.000(!) years. You can shoot that beast one-handed. Heck, you can dual-wield them. Of course, for accuracy you better use both hands.

Everything in your list boils down to individual and subjective assumptions, from the effect of the rocket motor to a lack of futuretech recoil compensation to the actual kinetic energy created in the discharge of the primary propellant*. You simply do not have the necessary data to back up these claims, for the only thing we have is the fluff from the studio material. And the end result of your assumptions is in conflict with said material.
Personally, I'll rather look for potential explanations for why the canon is okay, rather than conjuring potential reasons for why it might not be so.

In the end, you could just as well challenge GW's claim that there cannot be female Space Marines because of hormones. Actually, you'd have a far better chance at this, for here we have sufficient real life science data to prove that the explanation given by GW is silly. But do you really want to go there?

(*: as I said, there already is a real life gun firing a solid steel slug of greater caliber of remarkable penetration power - I would think this monster actually has more recoil than a bolter)

aka_mythos wrote:Could there be macguffin to explain controlability?-Yes... but there isn't any one that's been proposed.

Well, that old storm bolter cross section does feature a "blast compensator". You could interpret this in a recoilless rifle type of way. And do not forget the simple physical fact that the heavier a weapon is, the less it is affected by recoil / the more kinetic energy it requires to be moved.

aka_mythos wrote:Within the setting bolters have been described as difficult for the average person to fire, so its not unreasonable to justify why it is or how in some instances it is mitigated.

When they have been described as being difficult to fire (where?), then this already implies that there is just one kind of ammunition and people without power armour, bionics or peak strength will simply find it uncomfortable to use. This is entirely in line with my personal interpretation.

aka_mythos wrote:Could Arnold Schwarzenegger, or anyone else equally as muscular as GW portrays IG be capable of handling a bolter adequetly?-Yes, but they aren't average. Its even been shown certain uber-humans who aren't Space Marines can shoulder and Rambo it up with a bolter... but that's why I prefaced most of what I said as... "for the average person" or "for anyone not wearing power armor"... so as to say humans who can't just aren't average.

This is already represented in the setting, though in a different way. The average human cannot wield a heavy bolter by himself, the average Space Marine (even without power armour) can. I don't see why this gap has to be widened even further by violating GW material and inventing two castes of ammunition.

Lynata wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I've fired a fully automatic shotgun with Frag12 it isn't as easy as an automatic rifle or as accurate.

The AA12 example was just to describe how far "we" advanced in terms of recoil compensation even today, implying how much further the Imperium may have come in another 40.000(!) years. You can shoot that beast one-handed. Heck, you can dual-wield them. Of course, for accuracy you better use both hands.

I'll get to the rest of what you said later... but in all honest the AA12 hasn't really done anything to mitigate recoil than install a larger buffer spring and so drastically cut rate of fire. I know people who can fire a semi-automatic Saiga 12 ga faster than an AA12 fires. The AA12 is really not that great, its built off of a 1960's design with the only modification being to improve cleaning and improve survivability incase too many frag-12 rounds jam up in the barrel. Recoil is a matter of physics and the greatest components are muzzle velocity and the mass of projectiles in the barrel. A bolter round to pierce armor the ways it does has to be, as a matter of physics, heavier and faster... it would have noticably more recoil than a 12ga slug and the rate of fire for bolters to be effective as primary weapon would have to be higher than an AA12. Recoiless rifles are a terrible example of what someone might want to do to mitigate recoil that's why they've been replaced with rocket launchers and RPGs (not roleplaying).

Lynata wrote:
(*: as I said, there already is a real life gun firing a solid steel slug of greater caliber of remarkable penetration power - I would think this monster actually has more recoil than a bolter)

Very nice... but the recoil of something so large in caliber fired at any automatic rate of fire could probably break you wrist. That thing was designed for suppressing prison riots... doesn't really require long range accuracy.

The AA12 is also somewhat unique in the world of CAWS, in that it's pretty damn slow. Some of the FN auto-shotguns and the... I want to say it's an H&K model, but I could be wrong... have higher rates of fire, but much greater recoil, and generally require 2 hands to use to control the muzzle-climb.

This is compensated for, somewhat, by reducing the calibre from 12 to 20 gauge in some models. Still lethal to humans, just not as devastatingly so.

There is also the possibility that the Imperium did have recoil compensation uber-tech, but lost it in the Age of Strife, the Apostasy, the Heresy, some on-going Warp Storm, or because the Magos in charge of the technology accidentally executed command protocol "C:\Format" one morning.

That said, the rate of fire of a bolt weapon is something that, just like the recoil, we too do not know...

But to add yet another argument to the list:
IG heavy bolters are commonly installed on vehicles or used with a tripod - surely there would be no need to use a "de-powered" propellant there. And still there is at least one IG character who wields such a beast solo.

Of course we could come up with a dozen reasons for why a bolt weapon's recoil would be too big for a human, but when you're already going against the studio material you can just as well say that nobody other than Space Marines is able to use bolters at all instead of coming up with two different categories. This at least would be easier to justify than a rather specific massive recoil that is both too much for normal men to fire a pistol in single shot mode, but low enough for non-powerarmoured Marine Scouts to fire heavy bolters on rapid fire without issue...

In the end, this is a sci-fi setting, and though we do not know in great detail how exactly a bolter works and what's in there I have no problem at all to believe that it would be sufficient to deal with recoil to preserve the other rules established by this setting. It doesn't get unrealistic unless you want it to (why?), and in terms of believability there is far worse stuff than bolter recoil in 40k.

aka_mythos wrote:Recoil is a matter of physics and the greatest components are muzzle velocity and the mass of projectiles in the barrel.

Weapon weight is another key factor, and bolters are gakheavy. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_weight.htm

aka_mythos wrote:Very nice... but the recoil of something so large in caliber fired at any automatic rate of fire could probably break you wrist.

Oh, personally I'm rolling with the description that was given in the Munitorum Manual. It may be a BL book (meaning not canonically binding), but is in line with the rest of the studio material, and I subjectively feel that a good deal of recoil would still be warranted - even though I have yet to see an actual GW book talking about this.

In case you don't have it, it basically mentions that you shouldn't fire a bolt weapon on anything other than the single shot setting unless you are a Space Marine or otherwise enhanced (bionics, power armour, etc).

Addendum: Going back to the aforementioned blast compensator, here is the image I meant, which you may compare to this real life principle.

Addendum #2:

aka_mythos wrote:A bolter round to pierce armor the ways it does has to be, as a matter of physics, heavier and faster...

Stalker bolt rounds travel at a speed below ~330 m/s and still pack their punch. Velocity does not seem to have that much of an impact on their efficiency.

Final Addendum () If you want, we can of course agree that the way that bolt weapons work as described in the GW studio material does not appeal to your personal sense of realism, but that this is just the way they work within the setting. I think there's other stuff that would deserve this label more, but that's pretty much something that everybody has to decide for him- or herself, depending on the individual extent of one's "suspension of disbelief" in the face of alien species, warp magic and the weirdest examples of sci-fi technology.

Kanluwen wrote:

TrollPie wrote:So, obviously, bolters are rare. They're hard to produce, hazardous to use and generally impractical (high recoil, heavy, unnecassary power).
But then heavy bolters, which are even bigger, more powerful and even harder to produce are readily available to pretty much any tank in the Imperium. Literally, any vehicle except a Rhino. Why?

Because they're not actually harder to produce, and nor are Bolters.

The Bolters used by the Astartes aren't "hard to produce", they're just generally produced by the Chapter proper. It gives the weapon a history, rather than a serial number. It's like the difference between an off the shelf rifle and a rifle custombuilt for the individual who will be using it.

Actually, in The Purging of Kadillus, One of the DA explained to a trooper that the reason they don't get arms and armour like astartes is because they are unworthy. he explained that one bolt took more effort to produce than an entire lasgun. The book also explained that the specialized ammunition types for bolters had to be made individually by the Master of the Forge.

I agree with OP. It would make more sense to use simpler point defense weapons that wouldn't be completely overkill. Like their stubber cannons or whatever they're called that are similar to .50cal machine guns.

I believe the "one guy" lugging around a Heavy Bolter is "Try Again" Bragg from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels?

That dude is fething huge. He's not a "normal" human.

Psienesis wrote:I believe the "one guy" lugging around a Heavy Bolter is "Try Again" Bragg from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels?
That dude is fething huge. He's not a "normal" human.

There's another? I was referring to Ox from the Last Chancers.

I just used this character to establish/back up my claim that they use the same ammunition, seeing that there's no reason to lower the recoil of a stationary weapon.
In other words: I know that guy isn't a "normal" human. Normal humans can "only" carry bolters.

When I read about such weapons, what I see is talk about their "weight and cumbersome nature", not recoil.

Ok, there are 3 IG characters who have been mentioned as lugging big guns around.

Bragg from the Ghost novels(although he was lugging around Autocannons, not HBs)

Ox,

and then Gunnery Sergeant Harker in the IG codex(only one with an actual model and rules ATM)

Psienesis wrote:I believe the "one guy" lugging around a Heavy Bolter is "Try Again" Bragg from the Gaunt's Ghosts novels?

That dude is fething huge. He's not a "normal" human.

Plus I do recall Brostin lugging around an auto-cannon in that series too.

Either way though, I think that was a bit of a blunder on Abnett's part, despite him being prolly the best BL author. No matter how big Bragg is, Space Marines in full power armour are slowed significantly by their heavy bolters. He is NOT as strong as a Space Marine, let alone one who is bolstered by his armour's servos. Not even vaguely close. Unless he was secretly an Ogryn and didn't tell anybody...and even then, only just.

Dunno, maybe it was an autocannon. Or an assault cannon. I don't remember, haven't read the GG series in a year or so. I just remember a guy or two lugging around a weapon that no "normal" human has any business lugging around.

Of course, Bragg *was* a terrible shot...

Yeah, an autocannon is getting a bit too much for me, too.

Sometimes, Dan Abnett takes quite some liberty from the studio canon - apparently his Space Marines are also way larger than they are as per GW. Heard good things about his writing style, though. I've got the first GG omnibus lying around here, will touch it once I've finished the Enforcer one.

Grey Templar wrote:and then Gunnery Sergeant Harker in the IG codex(only one with an actual model and rules ATM)

Huh, first time I actually heard of him...
What a badass miniature. Thanks for the hint!

It was an Autocannon. then he gets another autocannon and duct tapes them together McGyver style and dual wields them.

that said, Autocannon is a fairly generic term in the fluff and in modern weapon descriptions.

Fairly generic in the sense that there are lots of calibres of autocannons... none of them small, most requiring at least a tripod if not a truck to mount it on.

Lynata wrote:Yeah, an autocannon is getting a bit too much for me, too.

Sometimes, Dan Abnett takes quite some liberty from the studio canon - apparently his Space Marines are also way larger than they are as per GW. Heard good things about his writing style, though. I've got the first GG omnibus lying around here, will touch it once I've finished the Enforcer one.

Grey Templar wrote:and then Gunnery Sergeant Harker in the IG codex(only one with an actual model and rules ATM)

Huh, first time I actually heard of him...
What a badass miniature. Thanks for the hint!

Abnett legitimately is the best bl writer, with Graham McNeil MAYBE coming close. He DOES disregard canon, and occasionally contradict himself, but only for the purpose of making his stories more involving. And the space marine height thing varies hugely by authors, don't worry about it. I think I like his sizes more.

Especially Dembski-Bowden's SM sizes, in books by this author space marines are 8 and a half feet tall, their armour adds a foot, and terminators are a meter taller than Regular armoured SMs, putting them at roughly ~3.8 meters tall.

I hate when SM are described as "two meters tall", I don't know about you guys but SM are NOT 6'6'' in my head.

Psienesis wrote:Fairly generic in the sense that there are lots of calibres of autocannons... none of them small, most requiring at least a tripod if not a truck to mount it on.

I assume the smallest of autocannons would be small enough that it would be similar to a modern HMG, so it's not *too* ridiculous for one guy to use it. At least that's how I justify it to myself.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lynata wrote:Yeah, an autocannon is getting a bit too much for me, too.

Sometimes, Dan Abnett takes quite some liberty from the studio canon - apparently his Space Marines are also way larger than they are as per GW. Heard good things about his writing style, though. I've got the first GG omnibus lying around here, will touch it once I've finished the Enforcer one.

Grey Templar wrote:and then Gunnery Sergeant Harker in the IG codex(only one with an actual model and rules ATM)

Huh, first time I actually heard of him...
What a badass miniature. Thanks for the hint!

Abnett legitimately is the best bl writer, with Graham McNeil MAYBE coming close. He DOES disregard canon, and occasionally contradict himself, but only for the purpose of making his stories more involving. And the space marine height thing varies hugely by authors, don't worry about it. I think I like his sizes more.

Especially Dembski-Bowden's SM sizes, in books by this author space marines are 8 and a half feet tall, their armour adds a foot, and terminators are a meter taller than Regular armoured SMs, putting them at roughly ~3.8 meters tall.

I hate when SM are described as "two meters tall", I don't know about you guys but SM are NOT 6'6'' in my head.

Not start this debate again, as there's two threads for it, but the cannon height for Marines according to GW is 7'-7'6". 3.8 meters is TWELVE feet. Do you know how big 12 feet is? Especially for a suit of armor apparently designed to work in closed spaces. Terminators wouldn't be able to walk around in buildings without smashing through doors and stooping everywhere. The room I'm sitting in isn't even 12 feet tall.

They wouldn't be able to go around in buildings without destroying the ceilings.

the color purple wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fairly generic in the sense that there are lots of calibres of autocannons... none of them small, most requiring at least a tripod if not a truck to mount it on.

I assume the smallest of autocannons would be small enough that it would be similar to a modern HMG, so it's not *too* ridiculous for one guy to use it. At least that's how I justify it to myself.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lynata wrote:Yeah, an autocannon is getting a bit too much for me, too.

Sometimes, Dan Abnett takes quite some liberty from the studio canon - apparently his Space Marines are also way larger than they are as per GW. Heard good things about his writing style, though. I've got the first GG omnibus lying around here, will touch it once I've finished the Enforcer one.

Grey Templar wrote:and then Gunnery Sergeant Harker in the IG codex(only one with an actual model and rules ATM)

Huh, first time I actually heard of him...
What a badass miniature. Thanks for the hint!

Abnett legitimately is the best bl writer, with Graham McNeil MAYBE coming close. He DOES disregard canon, and occasionally contradict himself, but only for the purpose of making his stories more involving. And the space marine height thing varies hugely by authors, don't worry about it. I think I like his sizes more.

Especially Dembski-Bowden's SM sizes, in books by this author space marines are 8 and a half feet tall, their armour adds a foot, and terminators are a meter taller than Regular armoured SMs, putting them at roughly ~3.8 meters tall.

I hate when SM are described as "two meters tall", I don't know about you guys but SM are NOT 6'6'' in my head.

Not start this debate again, as there's two threads for it, but the cannon height for Marines according to GW is 7'-7'6". 3.8 meters is TWELVE feet. Do you know how big 12 feet is? Especially for a suit of armor apparently designed to work in closed spaces. Terminators wouldn't be able to walk around in buildings without smashing through doors and stooping everywhere. The room I'm sitting in isn't even 12 feet tall.

I imagine the Ceiling on a Space Hulk, the quintessential Terminator locale, would be able to accomodate 12 feet. And to be fair, tac Dread armour is supposed to be essentially the result of a Dread and a suit of power armour having a love child.

And SM would still be 8 1/2 feet tall+ because power armour canonically adds a foot to your height.

Also, Mortarion was described as being as tall as a terminator while barefoot...and twelve feet seems plausible for a primarch.

Also, I remember SM have been described as "Head and Shoulders Taller than the tallest man within the crusade" during the heresy, and those had MILLIONS of mortal men, chances are at least one of them was over 7', and a six inch difference isn't "head and shoulders"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:They wouldn't be able to go around in buildings without destroying the ceilings.

Most ceilings are a bit under 7'6"...

And that's before the termie armour.

Also, in battle of the fang, a blood claw had to demolish walls to get to the cockpit of a ship, and ships are where terminators are meant to operate, so demolishing their environment is just part of the job.

Plus building important enough to be held by termies, like cathedrals, would have no problem accommodating them.

Also, as for the height of regular SM, I remember hearing they were half again as tall as a normal man, which favours Abnett's numbers.

im2randomghgh wrote:And SM would still be 8 1/2 feet tall+ because power armour canonically adds a foot to your height.

Um... You can take a look at the lifesize drawing Jes did. His Marine was 7 feet in power armour, and you could guess how much the armour added to that by comparing it to the scale on the left.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, I remember SM have been described as "Head and Shoulders Taller than the tallest man within the crusade" during the heresy, and those had MILLIONS of mortal men, chances are at least one of them was over 7', and a six inch difference isn't "head and shoulders"

Black Library novels are not canon. Why do you think Abnett or Goto can get away with their artistic freedoms?
Jes even jokes about the height some authors give to their Marines in the 4th GW designer podcast. Because it is silly. Marines do not define themselves just over their height or the ability to shoot guns too big for other people. There's much more to them, and personally I think you are doing them a disservice if you limit them to 2-dimensional 10 meter supermen with chainguns just because it's a Hollywood kind of "cool" and everything has to be oh-so-epic these days. That is not to say that you can still not do that for your own interpretation of the setting, but it's quite simply not what GW presents us.

And keep in mind they also have to fit into a Rhino, a vehicle designed for human proportions (more specifically, the early Terran colonists).

But you can read up on all that in the other thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387812.page

I assume the smallest of autocannons would be small enough that it would be similar to a modern HMG, so it's not *too* ridiculous for one guy to use it. At least that's how I justify it to myself.

The smallest modern autocannon fires a shell (not a bullet) of at least 20mm diameter. This is a calibre commonly found only in weapons that are vehicle mounted, though there is an experimental 25mm autocannon currently in limited testing, though it requires 2 soldiers to operate it.

So... no, much, much bigger than a HMG, which is ~.50cal. on average, with some examples being smaller calibres, some very few slightly larger (.65 at the largest, if memory serves).

Psienesis wrote:The smallest modern autocannon fires a shell (not a bullet) of at least 20mm diameter. This is a calibre commonly found only in weapons that are vehicle mounted, though there is an experimental 25mm autocannon currently in limited testing, though it requires 2 soldiers to operate it.

Now that you mention it, the first barrels of the 23mm KS-23 shotgun I mentioned earlier actually came from anti-air guns.
But yeah, I guess it'd just be way too uncontrollable if you'd fire something like that fully automatic. First you'd loose accuracy and then the weapon itself...

The thing to remember about Bragg carrying twinned autocannons around is Abnett actually does refer to Autocannons as stubbers and to stubbers as autocannons a couple of times in the books. I think it's just his way of saying 'large automatic solid ammo gun' and using guns that have been given names in 40k.

Bragg also, in the first 3 books, carries a missile launcher with a 4 missile rack, which in Ghostmaker used melta missiles. After they get to Hagia, they're mentioned as using lower tech missile launchers that need to be individually loaded.

Larkins lasgun also takes a few forms, starting off as a longlas without a power slide that uses multi-shot hotshots. Then, on Hagia, he's knocking heads off of small birds and Cuu is firing it on full auto (while specifically being loaded with a hotshot cell, mentioned by Larkin), but on Aexe, he needs to swap to a low volt cell to avoid liquifying a deer. Then by Sabbat Martyr, the Hotshots are suddenly single shot overcharged cells.

The Abnett books are fantastic, but he has a lot of inconsistencies in them, particularly regarding weapons. Hell, in the first book, there's Iron Warriors Space Marines having their heads shot clean off by a lasgun set to full strength.

Using anything from the Abnett books as a reference to official fluff isn't the best way to go.

But lasguns of full power CAN indeed blow a marine's head off.

thats why Hotshot lasguns are Ap3.

Grey Templar wrote:But lasguns of full power CAN indeed blow a marine's head off.

thats why Hotshot lasguns are Ap3.

Hotshots are different. They're wahts used in Longlas'.

In the first few books, lasguns have power sliders. Sliding them to full power was taking the head off a Chaos Marine. That sort of power, equivalent to a Hotshot which is specifically overcharged for that amount of power, coming from standard clip shouldn't be happening.

It's worth noting that when he starts mentioning Hotshots in Longlas' for that kind of power, the power sliders mysteriously disappear from the standard lasguns. I also liked Corbec lamenting his metal skeleton stocked lasgun in Necropolis, while before and after that single reference the Tanith lasguns always had Nalwood furniture.

Just saying, Abnetts stuff, while fantastic, is not a reliable source. He retcons things all the time, even in the space of a couple of books.