Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No, a Lasgun on full power can take marines out.

The Munitorum doesn't like guardsmen doing this as it burns through their ammo very quickly. as a result, most lasguns do not have a power setting slider and are fixed, but many varities do(There are literally thousands of different lasgun patterns)

Hotshot packs and lasguns are purpose built to be used this way, but that doesn't preclude a normal lasgun being used like this.

The Munitorum Manuel states that Guardsmen should not set their lasguns to full power if the setting is avaliable unless ordered to do so. this is also encouraged by the requirement for a soldier to be able to fire at least 500 rounds at all times, under penalty of 30 lashes.

Lynata wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And SM would still be 8 1/2 feet tall+ because power armour canonically adds a foot to your height.

Um... You can take a look at the lifesize drawing Jes did. His Marine was 7 feet in power armour, and you could guess how much the armour added to that by comparing it to the scale on the left.

Astartes are giants. Understand this. 7' tall is not a giant, it is tall. There is a difference. I will NEVER take that picture seriously. As a right of initiation, the Iron Snakes kill 500m long Sea Monsters. Without guns. That same Snake wrestled a 1500kg bear to the ground.

It. Is. Canon. That. Power. Armour. Adds. A. Foot.

You seem to be confusing Space Marines with their lesser brethren, the Spartans of Halo.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, I remember SM have been described as "Head and Shoulders Taller than the tallest man within the crusade" during the heresy, and those had MILLIONS of mortal men, chances are at least one of them was over 7', and a six inch difference isn't "head and shoulders"

Black Library novels are not canon.
* Why do you think Abnett or Goto can get away with their artistic freedoms?*
Jes even jokes about the height some authors give to their Marines in the 4th GW designer podcast. Because it is silly. Marines do not define themselves just over their height or the ability to shoot guns too big for other people. There's much more to them, and personally I think you are doing them a disservice if you limit them to 2-dimensional 10 meter supermen with chainguns just because it's a Hollywood kind of "cool" and everything has to be oh-so-epic these days. That is not to say that you can still not do that for your own interpretation of the setting, but it's quite simply not what GW presents us.

And keep in mind they also have to fit into a Rhino, a vehicle designed for human proportions (more specifically, the early Terran colonists).

But you can read up on all that in the other thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387812.page

As much as " 10 meter supermen with chainguns" is hyperbole, it is only slightly so; Heavy Bolter=chaingun that fires miniature mass-reactive diamond tipped rockets.

Have you been ignoring all the accounts of space marines ripping tanks apart? shredding battle suits with their bare hands? They are supermen in every sense of the word. Humans lack the basic potential to exceed a space marine in any respect. While the sources are contradictory enough that it's as much an opinion as anything else, it is ridiculous to think that someone only 7' tall is capable of the enormous feats of strength and power the Astartes display.

*They would get away with it anyways, there are a good number of contradictions even in the codices.

And Melissia if you start with ur "Commissars is pwnz SM" stuff again then I will quit...the internet. Life. Everything.

the thing that makes me laugh at that Jess drawing is the fact that his scale starts at 2 and goes up by 1.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lynata wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And SM would still be 8 1/2 feet tall+ because power armour canonically adds a foot to your height.

Um... You can take a look at the lifesize drawing Jes did. His Marine was 7 feet in power armour, and you could guess how much the armour added to that by comparing it to the scale on the left.

Astartes are giants. Understand this. 7' tall is not a giant, it is tall. There is a difference. I will NEVER take that picture seriously. As a right of initiation, the Iron Snakes kill 500m long Sea Monsters. Without guns. That same Snake wrestled a 1500kg bear to the ground.

It. Is. Canon. That. Power. Armour. Adds. A. Foot.

You seem to be confusing Space Marines with their lesser brethren, the Spartans of Halo.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, I remember SM have been described as "Head and Shoulders Taller than the tallest man within the crusade" during the heresy, and those had MILLIONS of mortal men, chances are at least one of them was over 7', and a six inch difference isn't "head and shoulders"

Black Library novels are not canon.
* Why do you think Abnett or Goto can get away with their artistic freedoms?*
Jes even jokes about the height some authors give to their Marines in the 4th GW designer podcast. Because it is silly. Marines do not define themselves just over their height or the ability to shoot guns too big for other people. There's much more to them, and personally I think you are doing them a disservice if you limit them to 2-dimensional 10 meter supermen with chainguns just because it's a Hollywood kind of "cool" and everything has to be oh-so-epic these days. That is not to say that you can still not do that for your own interpretation of the setting, but it's quite simply not what GW presents us.

And keep in mind they also have to fit into a Rhino, a vehicle designed for human proportions (more specifically, the early Terran colonists).

But you can read up on all that in the other thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/387812.page

As much as " 10 meter supermen with chainguns" is hyperbole, it is only slightly so; Heavy Bolter=chaingun that fires miniature mass-reactive diamond tipped rockets.

Have you been ignoring all the accounts of space marines ripping tanks apart? shredding battle suits with their bare hands? They are supermen in every sense of the word. Humans lack the basic potential to exceed a space marine in any respect. While the sources are contradictory enough that it's as much an opinion as anything else, it is ridiculous to think that someone only 7' tall is capable of the enormous feats of strength and power the Astartes display.

*They would get away with it anyways, there are a good number of contradictions even in the codices.

And Melissia if you start with ur "Commissars is pwnz SM" stuff again then I will quit...the internet. Life. Everything.

This is Shaq, Shaq is 7'1", Shaq is huge, Space Marines are huge too, therefore space marines must be about 7' tall.

a Fallacious comparason.

both the Empire State Building and the Eiffel Tower are "Huge". Does that mean they are the same size?

Grey Templar wrote:No, a Lasgun on full power can take marines out.

Which is even stated in the 2E Marine Codex in the part where they explain power armour. They still go into a bit more detail there than in the new books. Nowadays they really loathe to give any numbers or hard facts, it seems, leaving more open to interpretation. But judging from Andy Hoare's comment on Aaron Dembski-Bowden's blog, I guess this is working as intended.

Lasgun power sliders are actually from studio material, too. The rulebook from GW's Inquisitor RPG mentions it for one of its patterns. It is capable of increasing the standard firepower by up to ~33%, but of course burns more energy per shot.

im2randomghgh wrote:Astartes are giants. Understand this. 7' tall is not a giant, it is tall. There is a difference. I will NEVER take that picture seriously. As a right of initiation, the Iron Snakes kill 500m long Sea Monsters. Without guns. That same Snake wrestled a 1500kg bear to the ground.
It. Is. Canon. That. Power. Armour. Adds. A. Foot.

Eh, Games Workshop decides what is "canon" and what isn't, not Dan Abnett and not you. If you take your personal interpretation as being above GW, go ahead, but then we're simply not operating on "common ground"! Enjoy your novels and their contradictions and how they portray Space Marines as immortal 10 feet supermen, but that is quite simply not the world as presented in the studio material, and personally I like it way more this way. It's more grimdark and less Hollywood Mary-Sue'ish and avoids a ton of inconsistencies like that little Rhino-issue.

Height isn't everything. Seriously, listen to this podcast, it's quite cool how Jes explains it.

Grey Templar wrote:the thing that makes me laugh at that Jess drawing is the fact that his scale starts at 2 and goes up by 1.

Yeah, he fethed up on that, he even mentions that in the podcast. Apparently he only noticed that a full year later.

Grey Templar wrote:a Fallacious comparason.

both the Empire State Building and the Eiffel Tower are "Huge". Does that mean they are the same size?

I was being silly but still look how tall shaq is compared to everyone, I don't think there's any reason to have Space Marines any bigger than 7ft - 7ft 6in that's plenty big imo you have to remember that space marines

need to fight in a wide variety of environments so sizing is important.

Grey Templar wrote:No, a Lasgun on full power can take marines out.

The Munitorum doesn't like guardsmen doing this as it burns through their ammo very quickly. as a result, most lasguns do not have a power setting slider and are fixed, but many varities do(There are literally thousands of different lasgun patterns)

Hotshot packs and lasguns are purpose built to be used this way, but that doesn't preclude a normal lasgun being used like this.

The Munitorum Manuel states that Guardsmen should not set their lasguns to full power if the setting is avaliable unless ordered to do so. this is also encouraged by the requirement for a soldier to be able to fire at least 500 rounds at all times, under penalty of 30 lashes.

It would still have to find a weak spot. I recall a situation where a lascannon struck terminator armour head on and failed to kill the wearer.

Even hotshot rounds fail to down a SM unless he was either struck in a joint, eye lens or was wearing carapace armour at the time. Pulse rounds, which are more powerful than hotshot rounds by orders of magnitude, generally cannot tear through PA with a single shot.

If what you said were true, Astartes would be nigh useless against IG.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:No, a Lasgun on full power can take marines out.

The Munitorum doesn't like guardsmen doing this as it burns through their ammo very quickly. as a result, most lasguns do not have a power setting slider and are fixed, but many varities do(There are literally thousands of different lasgun patterns)

Hotshot packs and lasguns are purpose built to be used this way, but that doesn't preclude a normal lasgun being used like this.

The Munitorum Manuel states that Guardsmen should not set their lasguns to full power if the setting is avaliable unless ordered to do so. this is also encouraged by the requirement for a soldier to be able to fire at least 500 rounds at all times, under penalty of 30 lashes.

It would still have to find a weak spot. I recall a situation where a lascannon struck terminator armour head on and failed to kill the wearer.

Even hotshot rounds fail to down a SM unless he was either struck in a joint, eye lens or was wearing carapace armour at the time. Pulse rounds, which are more powerful than hotshot rounds by orders of magnitude, generally cannot tear through PA with a single shot.

If what you said were true, Astartes would be nigh useless against IG.

Well Space Marines are pretty much useless for anything other than quick surgical strikes.

Cheesecat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a Fallacious comparason.

both the Empire State Building and the Eiffel Tower are "Huge". Does that mean they are the same size?

I was being silly but still look how tall shaq is compared to everyone, I don't think there's any reason to have Space Marines any bigger than 7ft - 7ft 6in that's plenty big imo you have to remember that space marines
At
need to fight in a wide variety of environments so sizing is important.

Also remember that the Space Marine, in addition to being Shaq tall, would be twice as broad. He'd have a whole second Shaq's worth of entirely muscle packed around him.

I think the people who insist on ridiculous, door-bursting space marines don't really have any conception of how big 8, 9, or 10+ feet is. Like the 12 foot Terminator guy. 12' feet is the height of an average building. On the OUTSIDE. It's giraffe tall. It's "break everything not built to accomodate the comical giant" tall.

Who needs walls anymore.

Cheesecat wrote:Well Space Marines are pretty much useless for anything other than quick surgical strikes.

Quite right.

As to the lasgun-vs-marine discussion ...

"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates can be up to an inch thick and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

From the "Codex: Angels of Death". That book had an entire page devoted solely to power armour fluff. Good times...

the color purple wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a Fallacious comparason.

both the Empire State Building and the Eiffel Tower are "Huge". Does that mean they are the same size?

I was being silly but still look how tall shaq is compared to everyone, I don't think there's any reason to have Space Marines any bigger than 7ft - 7ft 6in that's plenty big imo you have to remember that space marines
At
need to fight in a wide variety of environments so sizing is important.

Also remember that the Space Marine, in addition to being Shaq tall, would be twice as broad. He'd have a whole second Shaq's worth of entirely muscle packed around him.

I think the people who insist on ridiculous, door-bursting space marines don't really have any conception of how big 8, 9, or 10+ feet is. Like the 12 foot Terminator guy. 12' feet is the height of an average building. On the OUTSIDE. It's giraffe tall. It's "break everything not built to accomodate the comical giant" tall.

Yeah picture Charles Atlas crossed with Shaq.

Basically this - was already linked in the other thread.

Cheesecat wrote:

the color purple wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a Fallacious comparason.

both the Empire State Building and the Eiffel Tower are "Huge". Does that mean they are the same size?

I was being silly but still look how tall shaq is compared to everyone, I don't think there's any reason to have Space Marines any bigger than 7ft - 7ft 6in that's plenty big imo you have to remember that space marines
At
need to fight in a wide variety of environments so sizing is important.

Also remember that the Space Marine, in addition to being Shaq tall, would be twice as broad. He'd have a whole second Shaq's worth of entirely muscle packed around him.

I think the people who insist on ridiculous, door-bursting space marines don't really have any conception of how big 8, 9, or 10+ feet is. Like the 12 foot Terminator guy. 12' feet is the height of an average building. On the OUTSIDE. It's giraffe tall. It's "break everything not built to accomodate the comical giant" tall.

Yeah picture Charles Atlas crossed with Shaq.

Nah, its more like 2 Arnolds on as many Steroids as you can pump them with crossed with Shaq and made a foot taller for good measure.

Cheesecat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a Fallacious comparason.

both the Empire State Building and the Eiffel Tower are "Huge". Does that mean they are the same size?

I was being silly but still look how tall shaq is compared to everyone, I don't think there's any reason to have Space Marines any bigger than 7ft - 7ft 6in that's plenty big imo you have to remember that space marines

need to fight in a wide variety of environments so sizing is important.

Any building where they can't smash the walls out of their way is probably something their scouts are better suited for.

Nothing else to it.

The reason that it only makes sense for them to be 8ft+ is because they are superhuman they are taller than humans. NOT "taller than an average human. They are taller than any human is physically capable of becoming. Anything else is silly.

Has anyone ever seen astartes described as super-most-human?

the closest I have seen is in the Ravenor and Eisinhorn series.

there is one planet where the people are described as being as tall as astartes, but they are slight and slim(but strong)

It does go into detail that these ladies are freakin tall, outside of what is normal for any human. this puts them in the 8ft zone.

Lynata wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:Well Space Marines are pretty much useless for anything other than quick surgical strikes.

Quite right.

As to the lasgun-vs-marine discussion ...

"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates can be up to an inch thick and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

From the "Codex: Angels of Death". That book had an entire page devoted solely to power armour fluff. Good times...

+1

@ Surgical Strike, that was why entire planets were taken in weeks during the GC. Normally a few squads pacify a world, but then tens of thousands of space marines attacked in concert...awesome times

Plus, the space marines have the added bonus of even without their armour being nearly invincible versus small arms, barring plasma and bolt.

Obviously we should divide the 40k setting into GW-world and the Marinesverse...

It does go into detail that these ladies are freakin tall, outside of what is normal for any human. this puts them in the 8ft zone

You're talking about Arianhrod, the Carthae. She was only 2 meters tall, directly quoted to both Eisenhorn's and Ravenor's observances. She was *slightly* taller than Harlon Nayl.

Yes, her people are tall, but they aren't 8+ feet tall. 2 meters is 6'6" and a tiny bit extra.

Psienesis wrote:

It does go into detail that these ladies are freakin tall, outside of what is normal for any human. this puts them in the 8ft zone

You're talking about Arianhrod, the Carthae. She was only 2 meters tall, directly quoted to both Eisenhorn's and Ravenor's observances. She was *slightly* taller than Harlon Nayl.

Yes, her people are tall, but they aren't 8+ feet tall. 2 meters is 6'6" and a tiny bit extra.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:Well Space Marines are pretty much useless for anything other than quick surgical strikes.

Quite right.

As to the lasgun-vs-marine discussion ...

"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates can be up to an inch thick and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

From the "Codex: Angels of Death". That book had an entire page devoted solely to power armour fluff. Good times...

+1

@ Surgical Strike, that was why entire planets were taken in weeks during the GC. Normally a few squads pacify a world, but then tens of thousands of space marines attacked in concert...awesome times

Plus, the space marines have the added bonus of even without their armour being nearly invincible versus small arms, barring plasma and bolt.

even during the Great Crusade, Marines were used as Shock Troops. they would drop down in massed numbers, but each squad would be acting with a surgical precision to attack specific targets. they wouldn't line up like the current IG does and advance into no-man's land(thats what the Imperial Army was for)

Space Marines were like our current marines, they would open up the beech head and weaken the enemy so the Army units could deploy and take on the, significantly weakened, enemy.

That and Marines had significant shock value at the time, even more then now, because they had never been encountered before by their enemies(and were therefore a strange foe to fight)

Grey Templar wrote:the closest I have seen is in the Ravenor and Eisinhorn series.

there is one planet where the people are described as being as tall as astartes, but they are slight and slim(but strong)

It does go into detail that these ladies are freakin tall, outside of what is normal for any human. this puts them in the 8ft zone.

That's because they have adapted to a different gravity. They are not standard, baseline humans. Their having adapted to the gravity of another world is not different to how Ogryns or ratlings did. They are abhuman. And their description almost reminded me of kroot.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:Well Space Marines are pretty much useless for anything other than quick surgical strikes.

Quite right.

As to the lasgun-vs-marine discussion ...

"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates can be up to an inch thick and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

From the "Codex: Angels of Death". That book had an entire page devoted solely to power armour fluff. Good times...

+1

@ Surgical Strike, that was why entire planets were taken in weeks during the GC. Normally a few squads pacify a world, but then tens of thousands of space marines attacked in concert...awesome times

Plus, the space marines have the added bonus of even without their armour being nearly invincible versus small arms, barring plasma and bolt.

even during the Great Crusade, Marines were used as Shock Troops. they would drop down in massed numbers, but each squad would be acting with a surgical precision to attack specific targets. they wouldn't line up like the current IG does and advance into no-man's land(thats what the Imperial Army was for)

Space Marines were like our current marines, they would open up the beech head and weaken the enemy so the Army units could deploy and take on the, significantly weakened, enemy.

That and Marines had significant shock value at the time, even more then now, because they had never been encountered before by their enemies(and were therefore a strange foe to fight)

Plus they don't have the resources nor manpower to fight like guard anyways.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the closest I have seen is in the Ravenor and Eisinhorn series.

there is one planet where the people are described as being as tall as astartes, but they are slight and slim(but strong)

It does go into detail that these ladies are freakin tall, outside of what is normal for any human. this puts them in the 8ft zone.

That's because they have adapted to a different gravity. They are not standard, baseline humans. Their having adapted to the gravity of another world is not different to how Ogryns or ratlings did. They are abhuman. And their description almost reminded me of kroot.

True enough,

but they are still human enough to be *ahem romantically compatable. I would think they could still breed successfully.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:Well Space Marines are pretty much useless for anything other than quick surgical strikes.

Quite right.

As to the lasgun-vs-marine discussion ...

"The most important element in the construction of a suit of Space Marine power armour is the large ceramite plates which provide the main form of protection against enemy attack. Individual plates can be up to an inch thick and have a special 'honeycomb' design which helps to dissipate energy and localise any damage suffered by the suit. Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."

From the "Codex: Angels of Death". That book had an entire page devoted solely to power armour fluff. Good times...

+1

@ Surgical Strike, that was why entire planets were taken in weeks during the GC. Normally a few squads pacify a world, but then tens of thousands of space marines attacked in concert...awesome times

Plus, the space marines have the added bonus of even without their armour being nearly invincible versus small arms, barring plasma and bolt.

even during the Great Crusade, Marines were used as Shock Troops. they would drop down in massed numbers, but each squad would be acting with a surgical precision to attack specific targets. they wouldn't line up like the current IG does and advance into no-man's land(thats what the Imperial Army was for)

Space Marines were like our current marines, they would open up the beech head and weaken the enemy so the Army units could deploy and take on the, significantly weakened, enemy.

That and Marines had significant shock value at the time, even more then now, because they had never been encountered before by their enemies(and were therefore a strange foe to fight)

Plus They were led by Primarchs, and Some sources have said that the marines of the 31st millennium were physically more powerful due to their gene-seed being direct from their primarch rather than diluted by generations of users.

Also, they had titan support and, occasionally, custodian support

Psienesis wrote:

I assume the smallest of autocannons would be small enough that it would be similar to a modern HMG, so it's not *too* ridiculous for one guy to use it. At least that's how I justify it to myself.

The smallest modern autocannon fires a shell (not a bullet) of at least 20mm diameter. This is a calibre commonly found only in weapons that are vehicle mounted, though there is an experimental 25mm autocannon currently in limited testing, though it requires 2 soldiers to operate it.

So... no, much, much bigger than a HMG, which is ~.50cal. on average, with some examples being smaller calibres, some very few slightly larger (.65 at the largest, if memory serves).

If we were to make the modern parallel, an "autocannon" is probably comparable to the 25mm variety of autocannon, while reaper autocannons are the lighter 20mm.

I don't think its impossible to have man portable versions of these caliber of weapons, they just haven't been developed. Presently the most mature efforts have been the XM307 which despite being labeled a grenade launcher has alot in common with an auto-cannon. It doesn't really compare, as its really somewhere in between a grenade launcher and an autocannon you see on vehicles but is used in a role portable autocannons were used when other nations have had them, comparatively lacking velocity. The US until more recently has seen little need due to the prevalence of vehicles with cannons and air support... but the marines now really want it due to their greater emphasis on distributed warfare in which there is a greater distance between units.

a man portable 20mm wouldn't be outside the realm of possability. by that I mean a Tri-pod version carried by a team of 2-3 guys.


a single dude could, concievably, carry the whole deployed tri-pod around. stopping and bracing to fire.

the descriptions of Bragg lugging around an Autocannon wouldn't be too far beyond realisim, especially if you imagine that the gun likely has had some awsome future recoil dampners built in.

And Bragg was considered hugely strong and strongly huge.

Based off of the models (yes, I know, not to scale)...



... they look more like they're actually cannons which happen to be autoloaders. Likely it varies from unit to unit.

Melissia wrote:And Bragg was considered hugely strong and strongly huge.

Based off of the models (yes, I know, not to scale)...



... they look more like they're actually cannons which happen to be autoloaders. Likely it varies from unit to unit.

naturally he wouldn't be lugging one of those around.


the ones on Tri-pods actually look managable, and in DoW2 Retribution the autocannon teams have 1 guy carry the gun and one carry the ammo.