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Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?

The forces of Chaos do pretty much the same thing dude, they don't just pray all day.

They're pretty much a mirror image of each other if you think about it.

Yep, two sides of the same coin. You can make cases for either side being "right."

I get the feeling that the OP is slightly biased.

However, both sides lack many redeeming qualities; it's simply organised murder versus chaotic murder.

I dont think its right calling chaoses murder chaotic it can be just as organised as the imperial brand of murder.

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?

I've never heard of the Imperium purging planets wholescale because there are too many people on them. Could you provide a source please?


Still, the Imperium is better. The Imperial forces have a tendency to fight for humanity and for their loved ones, with admittedly corrupt and self-serving elements. Chaos forces however, are primarily devoted towards their own selfish gains. Whether they think their chosen Chaos God (or Gods) will reward in the afterlife or they're trying to attain Daemonhood, they are generally not trying help humanity as a whole.

If by devoted to their gods mean they slaughter and sacrifice as many people they can for their own selfish gain then I would prefer the Imperium where their is order. The Imperium doesn't kill it's people for no reason it always comes down to acceptible losses. We can either nuke this planet being nomed by Tyranids or let the fleet go and destoy the entire sector.

"...who are the real monsters?"

Lol... Why are you trying to apply ethics and morals into 40k...

If you want "good guys" in 40k, your probably best off with the Tau, or Orks.

Forget the good and bad 40K is separated by order and chaos.

Also Orks good lol.

Yeah, in 40k every faction is evil. All of them.

I prefer the Imperium, since individual members of that faction can in fact be good. There is no such thing as a good-hearted devotee of Chaos. That is, of course a personal preference, and other peoples' opinions are just as valid as mine.

I would say Salamanders are about as "good" as a SM chapter can be in the Imperium. I have never read anything about them sacrificing innocents. Read something about them giving crap to a chapter that killed some people or guard during Armageddon. They also live amongst their people when not out in the galaxy killing the "bad" guys. That is unless all of this has been retconned in some way.

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?

It's easy to paint a faction as villain or hero when you use no facts and just make gak up.

The Imperium is better, it's not really arguable.

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?

Oh look, another Imperial hate thread. Like we don't have enough of this....
And Tau fans are telling us something.....

Ok, several things:

-You are obviously pointing at Chaos as "good guys". You must be sadomasochist or something when you are siding with Chaos.
-We already have this thread.
-Stop Trolling Imperial players.

Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.

Chaos, though, takes a billion people who aren't being tortured OR murdered as a personal affront.

And the "devoted follower of their god" thing swings both ways.

Arturius wrote:Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.

Please source for this "torture", and they won't kill billions of people - only when it's absoluteness necessarily ( Chaos corruption, xeno influence or rebellion ). And even those "rich" and "noble" are under the eye of the Inquisition so that they can't do certain things ( rebellion ). As for mutants, Age of Strife anyone? And aliens - Dark Eldar ( nuff said ).
The Imperium is not nice, but that is the price of 30.000 years of alien attacked and near extinction. They are only doing certain things because that will insure the survival of Mankind. As I said earlier, it is easy to judge people when you have everything and when you are not in their position.

Chaos, though, takes a billion people who aren't being tortured OR murdered as a personal affront.

And the "devoted follower of their god" thing swings both ways.

Only if you like for your soul to become someone's toy or food.

Brother Coa wrote:

Arturius wrote:Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.

Please source for this "torture",

Absolutely anything related to the Inquisition or the Ecclesiarchy? FFS, the Ministorium has a war machine that's just a tortured guy hooked up to a bunch of buzsaws and flamethrowers.

and they won't kill billions of people - only when it's absoluteness necessarily ( Chaos corruption, xeno influence or rebellion )

Potential Chaos corruption. The big =][= depopulated Armageddon on the assumption that some of the population was corrupted, or at least would talk, so the best thing to do is wipe out the population.

. And even those "rich" and "noble" are under the eye of the Inquisition so that they can't do certain things ( rebellion ).

Loyalists can get away with a lot. Especially connected, powerful loyalists.

As for mutants, Age of Strife anyone? And aliens - Dark Eldar ( nuff said ).

The Age of Strife was caused by robots, not mutants. The Imperium hates deviance from their master template of racial arrangemen. When a hive world eliminated nearly its entire population in search of genetic purity, the place was a pilgrimage site for the Ministorium until the Templars learned that there was Chaos muckery about. So the issue isn't murdering billions of people, it's who you pray to when you do it.

As far as aliens go, the Dark Eldar are donkey-caves. The Imperial Creed doesn't differentiate between them, and all the xenos whose sinister plots consist of "raise a family and not be on fire."

Chaos, though, takes a billion people who aren't being tortured OR murdered as a personal affront.

And the "devoted follower of their god" thing swings both ways.

Only if you like for your soul to become someone's toy or food.

Him On Earth snacks on souls, too. But my point is that you can't give the chaos followers the 'devoted to their god' pass without giving the Imperials the same.

Brother Coa wrote:Please source for this "torture", and they won't kill billions of people - only when it's absoluteness necessarily ( Chaos corruption, xeno influence or rebellion ). And even those "rich" and "noble" are under the eye of the Inquisition so that they can't do certain things ( rebellion ). As for mutants, Age of Strife anyone? And aliens - Dark Eldar ( nuff said ).
The Imperium is not nice, but that is the price of 30.000 years of alien attacked and near extinction. They are only doing certain things because that will insure the survival of Mankind. As I said earlier, it is easy to judge people when you have everything and when you are not in their position.

Only if you like for your soul to become someone's toy or food.

The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.

Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.

Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?

Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.

The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.

Has to be the Imperium.

The Imperium can change/be improved, Chaos is Chaos.

Here's the main difference between the Imperium and the Eye of Terror: Law and Chaos. Law isn't necessarily good (totalitarian dictatorships are lawful for example) and Chaos isn't necessarily evil (Hippies are chaotic, lol). The Imperium is an insane bureaucracy that barely values human life in favor of the survival of their empire. Chaos on the other hand is a collection of loosely based warbands and governments that are selfish and strife with infighting.

The Imperium is better than Chaos. That's not really up for serious question.

Just that "better than eternal damnation and the cruel attentions of the infinite daemonic hordes" is the best that could possibly be said for them.

Chaos is hardly the good guy here:
They may be devoted to their god, but only to advance themselves.

The imperium is also not good, but i would say they are more neutral if anything, they won't just purge a world because it's fun, they would do so because it's necessary.

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk America who murders countries of entire populations cause they have too many fricken bullets, or a Al-Qaeda who are just deoted followers of their god?

Fixed. I hope you realize how silly that post sounds now.

Gonna have to go with the Imperium.

Arturius wrote:tortured guy hooked up to a bunch of buzsaws and flamethrowers.

No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.

Potential Chaos corruption. The big =][= depopulated Armageddon on the assumption that some of the population was corrupted, or at least would talk, so the best thing to do is wipe out the population.

Poor example, Armageddon was swarming with Daemons and half of it's population already fell to the corruption before Space Wolves came. And it was Grey Knights who have the custom to kill and purge their allies after battles with Daemons. I would do the same, it would be like evacuating half of town population from zombie infected city - better to kill them all then to risk another epidemic.

Loyalists can get away with a lot. Especially connected, powerful loyalists.

Yeah, we saw what happened to Vanire at the end. And to various planetary Governors who wanted their own little empire...

The Age of Strife was caused by robots, not mutants. The Imperium hates deviance from their master template of racial arrangemen. When a hive world eliminated nearly its entire population in search of genetic purity, the place was a pilgrimage site for the Ministorium until the Templars learned that there was Chaos muckery about. So the issue isn't murdering billions of people, it's who you pray to when you do it.

"There were two causes leading to the end of the Age of Technology and the beginning of the Age of Strife: the first was the sudden appearance of psykers on every human world. The second was the massive and persistent Warp storms erupting around the Sol System and other parts of the galaxy." No robots anywhere, and robots cause the begining of DAoT,. not AoS.

As far as aliens go, the Dark Eldar are donkey-caves. The Imperial Creed doesn't differentiate between them, and all the xenos whose sinister plots consist of "raise a family and not be on fire."

And you find me an alien who doesn't want to kill Human on sight ( Tau would sterilize us then use as as canon fodder and Eldar would just use us and left us to die so even they don't count ).

Him On Earth snacks on souls, too. But my point is that you can't give the chaos followers the 'devoted to their god' pass without giving the Imperials the same.

Those psykers wouldn't be lucky if they stayed alive at all. They would end up as Daemon food or worse. In this way their suffering os over and they help preserving Human race. What could be more noble?

Just like I said - Imperial hate thread.....

Brother Coa wrote:No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.

No it isn't.

One of the two pilots is male.

The Penitent Engine is a form of criminal punishment. It's considered a worse punishment than Arco-Flagellation. Arco-Flagellation and consignment to a Penitent Engine are punishments given out by the Imperial Church to the worst heretics and criminals.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.

No it isn't.

One of the two pilots is male.

Then the other one must be a priest or missionary or something ( DoW:SS model only have females, I didn't know males are hooked up to ). Two pilots? I only saw 1...
There is no way they would let worshiper of Chaos to be hooked up there, that's the war machine - the chance hir him to turn on them is great.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:No, this is a Sister who voluntarily get hooked up there.

No it isn't.

One of the two pilots is male.

Then the other one must be a priest or missionary or something ( DoW:SS model only have females, I didn't know males are hooked up to ). Two pilots? I only saw 1...
There is no way they would let worshiper of Chaos to be hooked up there, that's the war machine

Yes they would. In fact, worshippers of Chaos are the ideal candidates the "driver" isn't actually in control of the vehicle anyway, but that aside, s/he's drugged up and tortured until he desires nothing but redemption. It's a psychological warfare death machine.

Sisters that end up in such a situation where they would be punished for a crime worthy of arco-flagellation (something that is unlikely to begin with) would instead be sent to the Repentia to earn their redemption in death that way.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.

Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?

Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.

Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...

Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?

Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.

Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.

I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight. And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )

The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.

It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Yes they would. In fact, worshippers of Chaos are the ideal candidates the "driver" isn't actually in control of the vehicle anyway, but that aside, s/he's drugged up and tortured until he desires nothing but redemption. It's a psychological warfare death machine.

Sisters that end up in such a situation where they would be punished for a crime worthy of arco-flagellation (something that is unlikely to begin with) would instead be sent to the Repentia to earn their redemption in death that way.

Oh....ok, thanks for clearing that up.