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Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.

Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?

The Imperium is REALLY BAD at sorting out loyal subjects out from purges of renegades, and they don't particularly care if they do. "Better to slaughter a thousand innocents than let one follower of the Damon escape," to paraphrase the corebook. This is the same Imperium where a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting the court's time. And after all, if you're not sure whether someone is loyal, what's a good way to find out if they're heretics? (Hint: it's torture!)

Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.

Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...

So...? The loyal soldiers of the Imperium, who bravely stood against the hordes of Chaos, were worked to death in slave labor camps because Big =][= assumed some of the Guardsmen would either succumb to Chaos or talk about what happened, so it's best to kill them all to avoid the risk.

Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?

Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.

The Age of Strife was mostly attributed to the Iron Men, and even the psyker thing is a dodge. The Imperium's policy on humans whose genetic alterations makes them look ugly and/or weird is either "grudgingly tolerate while exploiting for slave labor" on the benevolent end. Usually it's just "set them on fire."

Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.

I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight.

There's a difference between 'humanity first' and 'purge anything that isn't human, and you can't be a traitor if you never joined the Imperium in the first place.

And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )

The Tau DON'T want to kill humans, they want humans to work for them, which isn't great but is still better than the Imperium's position. Kroot are as happy to work for humans as anyone else. Demiurg seem to have no issue with humans. The aliens in the fleet the Children and Hands wiped out were happy to have human members. This is off the top of my head, and it's ignoring the fact that any alien is likely to have an issue with humanity because the humans are trying to commit genocide on them. Not exactly a source of warm fuzzy feelings.

The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.

It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?

It's not justified. Yes, the Grim Darkness of the Forty-First Millenium is an unbearably horrible place, and there's no one who can't afford to be on a war footing 24/7, but the Imperium's genetic perfection master race manifest destiny schtick is horrible without necessarily being useful, and it absolutely does result in the deaths of people who haven't done anything wrong or anything that would harm the Imperium.

Arturius wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:The Inquisition employs torture so regularly it's funny.

Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?

The Imperium is REALLY BAD at sorting out loyal subjects out from purges of renegades, and they don't particularly care if they do. "Better to slaughter a thousand innocents than let one follower of the Damon escape," to paraphrase the corebook. This is the same Imperium where a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting the court's time. And after all, if you're not sure whether someone is loyal, what's a good way to find out if they're heretics? (Hint: it's torture!)

Uh, huh now? The First War of Armageddon consisted of a sizeable chunk of it being depopulated for the mere suspicion Chaos tainted them, although, it was more because they worried those who even heard of Chaos' presence would talk.

Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...

So...? The loyal soldiers of the Imperium, who bravely stood against the hordes of Chaos, were worked to death in slave labor camps because Big =][= assumed some of the Guardsmen would either succumb to Chaos or talk about what happened, so it's best to kill them all to avoid the risk.

Age of Strife=/=Mutants. The discrimination against mutants is due to their belief in human racial purity and their Manifest Destiny. Any of this sounding vaguely familiar to you?

Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.

The Age of Strife was mostly attributed to the Iron Men, and even the psyker thing is a dodge. The Imperium's policy on humans whose genetic alterations makes them look ugly and/or weird is either "grudgingly tolerate while exploiting for slave labor" on the benevolent end. Usually it's just "set them on fire."

Oh please, the Imperium was shamelessly xenophobic even during the time of the Great Crusade, when the Emperor was around. Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus led a campaign against a human/xeno alliance that posed no threat at all to the Imperium, they just wanted to be left alone and would leave them alone in turn. But the idea of humans allying with filthy xenos got them all butthurt, so they defeated the alliance, enslaved the humans to be put to work as slaves, and ethnically cleansed the xenos. Yeah man. That Imperium sure is a cool guy huh? Some xenos get exterminated for the heinous crime of daring to be a xeno in a perfect human galactic empire. Hell, were it not for a freak Warp Storm, the Tau would have been exterminated before they even acquired space travel.

I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight.

There's a difference between 'humanity first' and 'purge anything that isn't human, and you can't be a traitor if you never joined the Imperium in the first place.

And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )

The Tau DON'T want to kill humans, they want humans to work for them, which isn't great but is still better than the Imperium's position. Kroot are as happy to work for humans as anyone else. Demiurg seem to have no issue with humans. The aliens in the fleet the Children and Hands wiped out were happy to have human members. This is off the top of my head, and it's ignoring the fact that any alien is likely to have an issue with humanity because the humans are trying to commit genocide on them. Not exactly a source of warm fuzzy feelings.

The Imperium is more sympathetic and morally better than some other factions, but don't pretend everything they do is justified.

It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?

It's not justified. Yes, the Grim Darkness of the Forty-First Millenium is an unbearably horrible place, and there's no one who can't afford to be on a war footing 24/7, but the Imperium's genetic perfection master race manifest destiny schtick is horrible without necessarily being useful, and it absolutely does result in the deaths of people who haven't done anything wrong or anything that would harm the Imperium.

For all lot this I will just say: no, you are wrong.
Like I said: it is easy to judge someone from a comfy warm chair in a comfy warm home...
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are. The proff is continued existence of Mankind, since in either way we would be a slaves to aliens or dead.

Whether the Imperium's space-Nazi levels of repressive brutality are actually necessary for their continued survival (which is arguable, to say the least) the Imperium is not just committing necessary evils for the ultimate good. They hold the murder of people who look too different from the human norm as a great moral good, and encourage the worst aspects of human nature in getting the populace to accept this.

Many take the moral relativity in 40k too far.

There is no truly "good" faction, true. However Chaos is a more destructive and evil force then the Imperium, and you'll find many upstanding and truly caring/generous Imperial citizens who just want to advance the wellness of others. The same is not true with Chaos. By and large being part of the Imperium is much better then Chaos, despite all the atrocities, oppression, and destruction the Imperium is capable of.

Arturius wrote:Whether the Imperium's space-Nazi levels of repressive brutality are actually necessary for their continued survival (which is arguable, to say the least) the Imperium is not just committing necessary evils for the ultimate good. They hold the murder of people who look too different from the human norm as a great moral good, and encourage the worst aspects of human nature in getting the populace to accept this.

If your referring to mutants, they are tolerated. Look at Ratlings and Ogres both can contribute to humanity and are natural mutations so not actively killed. Their are also different kinds of mutants living in the Imperium seen in Ravenor, Eisenhorn, and other places. There is segregation but that isn't because of Imperial law it's the fact that most people don't hang out with a guy if he's got four eyes. The only mutants they actively kill are chaos tainted, easy to tell the difference as you are born with a natural mutation and chaos mutants are randomly sprouting tentacles.

If referring to Xenos the feeling is mutual to all races. The Eldar see us as monkeys with flashlights to be used and thrown away, and Tau think the same way as humans in the greater good are made sterile slowly killing them off while still looking pure of purpose. Orks smash us, Nids eat us, Crons harvest us, nobody likes us. As for killing the Diasporex that was a most likely a mistake, but was likely caused by distrust as before this the Xenos allied Interex attacked Horus during negotiations before finding out what actually happened.

If I had aliens killing my people for over 30.000 years I would hate everything non-Human to. And today in some countries is moral good to kill a muslim, and in some is moral good to kill a christian - that's the result of 2000 year old hate now imagine that in 38.000 years....

Nicholas wrote:

Arturius wrote:Whether the Imperium's space-Nazi levels of repressive brutality are actually necessary for their continued survival (which is arguable, to say the least) the Imperium is not just committing necessary evils for the ultimate good. They hold the murder of people who look too different from the human norm as a great moral good, and encourage the worst aspects of human nature in getting the populace to accept this.

If your referring to mutants, they are tolerated. Look at Ratlings and Ogres both can contribute to humanity and are natural mutations so not actively killed. Their are also different kinds of mutants living in the Imperium seen in Ravenor, Eisenhorn, and other places. There is segregation but that isn't because of Imperial law it's the fact that most people don't hang out with a guy if he's got four eyes. The only mutants they actively kill are chaos tainted, easy to tell the difference as you are born with a natural mutation and chaos mutants are randomly sprouting tentacles.

When a planet of 14 billion culled itself down to 2.5 million, the planet became a holy site where people traveled to marvel at the faith displayed by the population. Abhumans are, sometimes, in proper situations, tolerated and allowed to live by the Imperium, albeit as despised second-class citizens that don't enjoy even the rights afforded to the populace.

Also, it's not necessarily as easy to tell whether a guy was born with tentacles or sprouted them after a virgin sacrifice, unless you were there with him. Here we get into the Imperium's whole "burn them all, just in case" philosophy.

If referring to Xenos the feeling is mutual to all races. The Eldar see us as monkeys with flashlights to be used and thrown away, and Tau think the same way as humans in the greater good are made sterile slowly killing them off while still looking pure of purpose. Orks smash us, Nids eat us, Crons harvest us, nobody likes us. As for killing the Diasporex that was a most likely a mistake, but was likely caused by distrust as before this the Xenos allied Interex attacked Horus during negotiations before finding out what actually happened.

Is the whole "Tau sterilize human populations to wipe them out" referenced anywhere out of the video game? Other than that, yes, the major players in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future are all psychotic or evil. The ones who aren't don't take up a lot of screen time, because it generally plays like the Disporex. The aliens say "please don't shoot me in the face," the humans shoot them in the face and take their stuff. It's like Zap Brannigan's heroic carpet-bombing of Eden VII.

Brother Coa wrote:If I had aliens killing my people for over 30.000 years I would hate everything non-Human to. And today in some countries is moral good to kill a muslim, and in some is moral good to kill a christian - that's the result of 2000 year old hate now imagine that in 38.000 years....

These are small segments of the population, and they aren't regarded very well because they're hateful and ignorant. In the Imperium, though, hate and ignorance are virtues, so it works out. Of course, the Imperium's exultation of ignorance also means that, if they drop a computer and it stopped working, it's because the spirit of the computer was offended when they dropped it and must be placated.

Arturius wrote:
Is the whole "Tau sterilize human populations to wipe them out" referenced anywhere out of the video game?

Courage and Honor Ultramarine BL novel...

Brother Coa wrote:

Arturius wrote:
Is the whole "Tau sterilize human populations to wipe them out" referenced anywhere out of the video game?

Courage and Honor Ultramarine BL novel...

It is? I don't remember that at all.

Brother Coa wrote:Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?

Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...

Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.

I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight. And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )

It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?

1. Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, for one. He's notorious for executing anyone for the mere SUSPICION of heresy.

"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

Does he execute people who turned out to be heretics? Sure, of course it happens. But it is also known he has sent at the least thousands of innocents to their deaths, torturing them for information that did not exist.

2. Why yes, yes I have. But someone who just "heard" of the fighting is not going to start spontaneously worshipping Chaos, and sending the brave men and women who fought along-side the Marines to slave camps to work themselves to death is not justified. I dislike the Space Wolves and their practices on a whole but fact of the matter is that they were justified in their anger over that incident.

3. Yeah man cause killing and purging people who look different or are a little different than the ideal of the "Master Race" is completely justified!

And the rulebook credits the Age of Strife with the appearance of massive Warp Storms isolating settlements of humanity, and Mankind's over-reliance on technology, and man is then beset by Daemons, admittedly likely due to the growing numbers of psykers. I will admit their caution in handling psykers is completely necessary, since psykers can act as a portal to the Warp that a Daemon or similar things can come through, which is obviously bad.

But their purging of other mutants who deviate too far from the norm is not, and so you know, Abhumans didn't really begin appearing until during or after the Age of Strife, it being the reason for their existence. Ogryns and Ratlings are tolerated because they are not "too" deviated and are useful, but any that deviates too much or isn't too useful is purged for the crime of not resembling the "perfect" Master Race.

4. Dude are you serious? How can you "betray" something you didn't even knew existed until five minutes ago? It is in fact morally reprehensible to try to bully other civilizations into joining you, and ethnically cleansing them if they are different.

The xenos of the Diasphorex alliance bore no ill will towards humans, as I said. The Kroot also bear no ill-will towards humanity, they have in fact worked for humans as mercenaries on numerous occasions. The Demiurg don't mind humans either. The Jokaero are also friendly towards humans, and to humanity's credit they have shown unusual open-mindness towards utilising their unique attributes for themselves while also keeping them pretty happy.

Do some Xenos want humanity dead? Absolutely, you won't find me complaining about humans trying to purge Necrons, Tyranids, Orkz, hell, even Eldar or Tau at some cases. But a lot of the reason almost every xeno race hates them (The Eldar for instance) is because of their remarkably xenophobic nature, and their "Manifest Destiny" crap, their belief that it is their divine right to purge all other sentient life from the galaxy just because. This trait was present even when the Emperor was around, and was in fact promoted by him.

5. Blahblahblah buttmad Imperium fanboy, heard it all before.

If you want to play a "good" faction, go play the Tau. And even they are not saints.

Brother Coa wrote:For all lot this I will just say: no, you are wrong.
Like I said: it is easy to judge someone from a comfy warm chair in a comfy warm home...
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are. The proff is continued existence of Mankind, since in either way we would be a slaves to aliens or dead.

"No u" isn't an argument.

Except that machines in the Imperium really do have spirits residing in them. Perhaps not "ghosts" in the literal sense, but definitely something at least semi-sentient.

Why is the order given to exterminate the Xenos? Because the Emperor said so. It was, to the Emperor, Mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars. Was he wrong? We'll never know... but we do know that, human aggression or not, there's plenty of really, really nasty xenos out there who would like nothing more than to kill/enslave/devour humankind. Some overtly, through warfare, others covertly, through gene-stealing cults or psycho-somatic symbiotic relations to shadowy crime cartels that feed living humans up to their alien overlords.

It is, for the sake of Mankind, best not to risk the chance that this "friendly" xeno race is not really a bunch of slavering ghouls. Kill them all.

The mutant is abhorred because it is, quite possibly, Chaos-taint made evident in the flesh. Ratlings and Ogryns aren't technically mutants, they're ab-humans. Genetically human, reshaped by their environments, and able to breed true. Other mutants, the kinds with multiple eyes, tentacles, and all that... are not able to breed more mutants that share their abnormalities. Even the ones who are mutated by exposure to radiation or pollution generally cannot breed, as these hazards have sterilized them.

It's like I said in another post... what we consider "right and wrong" or"good and evil" here in the 20th century has absolutely no bearing on the reality of life in the 41st millennia.

Brother Coa wrote:

Arturius wrote:
Is the whole "Tau sterilize human populations to wipe them out" referenced anywhere out of the video game?

Courage and Honor Ultramarine BL novel...

Context is God.

Was this Imperial Propaganda?

Also, really, "the Emperor said so" isn't an argument, the words of an idiot shouldn't be taken as holy gospel.

Chaos- Want to destroy everything.

Imperium- Kill stuff cuz they have to.

Also, really, "the Emperor said so" isn't an argument, the words of an idiot shouldn't be taken as holy gospel.

But they are, and it's a very, very valid argument when discussing why people do what they do in the name of their religion.

Psienesis wrote:

Also, really, "the Emperor said so" isn't an argument, the words of an idiot shouldn't be taken as holy gospel.

But they are, and it's a very, very valid argument when discussing why people do what they do in the name of their religion.

Religion as a justification is a flimsy one at best.

And that just means the religion itself is inherently flawed, even "evil," and even so, that is just an "interpretation," religion can be used for evil, even if the religion itself is not inherently so.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Chaos- Want to destroy everything.

Imperium- Kill stuff cuz they have to.

I think it has been fairly well established that far from all of the imperium's attrocities are justified. Hells alot of the Imperium problems come from it's extreme and often counterproductive dogmatism.
That Chaos wants to destroy everything is also wrong. Chaos ultimately wants to corrupt.

Still, the Imperium of Man appears to be ( at least most of the time, there seem to be at least some chaos dominated worlds where life isn't that bad ) the lesser of both evils.

Psienesis wrote:Except that machines in the Imperium really do have spirits residing in them. Perhaps not "ghosts" in the literal sense, but definitely something at least semi-sentient.

Some particularly advanced machines do, yeah. Titans, land raiders, warships. Usually, I've seen the explanation refer to a biological brain, either vat-grown or taken from an animal, hooked up to the machine's system.

I'm talking about basic systems. "Pulling the trigger is a plea for your bolter to loose its round. If it does not obey, its spirit is displeased, whether by rough treatment or failure to perform the rites and rituals of maintenance."

Arturius wrote:It's like Zap Brannigan's heroic carpet-bombing of Eden VII.

I have always liked to picture the Codex Astartes as being Zapp Brannigan's Big Book of War.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?

I've never heard of the Imperium purging planets wholescale because there are too many people on them. Could you provide a source please?


Still, the Imperium is better. The Imperial forces have a tendency to fight for humanity and for their loved ones, with admittedly corrupt and self-serving elements. Chaos forces however, are primarily devoted towards their own selfish gains. Whether they think their chosen Chaos God (or Gods) will reward in the afterlife or they're trying to attain Daemonhood, they are generally not trying help humanity as a whole.

yes, i agree

It doesnt matter. Humanity is fethed up with any of them.

You know, thinking about it, different aspects of Chaos have different moralities. Also, as far as I am aware, information about the afterlife in 40k is vague and mostly inaccurate.

Chaos Undivided-Generally these guys are selfish and ambitious and short tempered. Most joined Chaos to further themselves, but some joined to escape from the corrupt Imperium or because they were misled. Overall these guys are about as bad as the Imperium, but in a different way. Rather than having too little freedom their organizations have too much.

Khorne-These guys constantly kill due to the adrenaline rush and feeling of superiority and power that comes with it. Definitely way worse than the Imperium. Their own decent quality is their devotion to Khorne and their willingness to die for him, but since Khorne is evil its not a very good thing that they're devote to him.

Tzeentch-Ambition, manipulation and scheming at its finest. These guys are selfish and cruel and egotistical. About as bad as the Imperium.

Nurgle-They have a similar survival of the fittest attitude as the Imperium and are sometimes cruel but not much beyond that. They're surprisingly kind and nonjudgemental, kindly welcoming new worshippers into the Cult of Nurgle. I'd say these guys are a little better than the Imperium.

Slaanesh-Drug Addicts, Sense Freaks and vain maniacs, Slaanesh Worshippers (such as my army, huzzah) are easily far worse than the Imperium. Don't wanna get on the bad side of these guys (or on their good side for that matter).

Most of the people speack of the truth here.
Chaos:
- Fight for Selfish needs (Some are truly devoted to their masters, daemons, and Gods. But only some)
-Lack of Sanity
Said enough? (by the way dont get me wrong Im a chaos fan)
Imperium:
- Some of the leaders are evil but many of the people are human (meaning that they can feel most feelings)
-The leaders might fight for their selfish reasons but the people (space marines, sisters of battle, imperial guards) fight for humanity, Emperor, love, for their home lands, and on.

I can bring in more differences between both sides but I think this is enough.

What I like about the 40k world is that there is no evil or good. They make it realistic, good people do bad things and bad people do good things.

Void__Dragon wrote:Context is God.

Was this Imperial Propaganda?

Also, really, "the Emperor said so" isn't an argument, the words of an idiot shouldn't be taken as holy gospel.

As heard from a brain-dead space zombie...the irony

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Only toward heretics and aliens, not toward loyal subjects of the Imperium or you have some source to contradict that?

Did you guys even read the 1'st War for Armageddon stuff? Half of planet was literally overrun by daemons. And Grey Knights were there so...

Uh.... last time I cheeked psykers are mutants to some degree. And in the AoS because of the Warp Storm Human mutants started appearing more and more because of Warp effects on Human worlds. So yes AoS = mutants.

I see no problem with Humanity first. And those Humans were traitors, they should be executed on sight. And I will ask you as well - find me some aliens who don't want to kill Humans. ( Tau and Eldar are same as everybody else so don't count them )

It is justified, only it's hard for us to understand. It's easy for American to sit all day and only worry about what will he eat tomorrow for breakfast. While Imperial citizen worry every day that some lunatic or xenos start killing everyone around him, including himself. Pretty equal don't you think?

1. Inquisitor Lord Karamazov, for one. He's notorious for executing anyone for the mere SUSPICION of heresy.

"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty."

Does he execute people who turned out to be heretics? Sure, of course it happens. But it is also known he has sent at the least thousands of innocents to their deaths, torturing them for information that did not exist.

2. Why yes, yes I have. But someone who just "heard" of the fighting is not going to start spontaneously worshipping Chaos, and sending the brave men and women who fought along-side the Marines to slave camps to work themselves to death is not justified. I dislike the Space Wolves and their practices on a whole but fact of the matter is that they were justified in their anger over that incident.

3. Yeah man cause killing and purging people who look different or are a little different than the ideal of the "Master Race" is completely justified!

And the rulebook credits the Age of Strife with the appearance of massive Warp Storms isolating settlements of humanity, and Mankind's over-reliance on technology, and man is then beset by Daemons, admittedly likely due to the growing numbers of psykers. I will admit their caution in handling psykers is completely necessary, since psykers can act as a portal to the Warp that a Daemon or similar things can come through, which is obviously bad.

But their purging of other mutants who deviate too far from the norm is not, and so you know, Abhumans didn't really begin appearing until during or after the Age of Strife, it being the reason for their existence. Ogryns and Ratlings are tolerated because they are not "too" deviated and are useful, but any that deviates too much or isn't too useful is purged for the crime of not resembling the "perfect" Master Race.

4. Dude are you serious? How can you "betray" something you didn't even knew existed until five minutes ago? It is in fact morally reprehensible to try to bully other civilizations into joining you, and ethnically cleansing them if they are different.

The xenos of the Diasphorex alliance bore no ill will towards humans, as I said. The Kroot also bear no ill-will towards humanity, they have in fact worked for humans as mercenaries on numerous occasions. The Demiurg don't mind humans either. The Jokaero are also friendly towards humans, and to humanity's credit they have shown unusual open-mindness towards utilising their unique attributes for themselves while also keeping them pretty happy.

Do some Xenos want humanity dead? Absolutely, you won't find me complaining about humans trying to purge Necrons, Tyranids, Orkz, hell, even Eldar or Tau at some cases. But a lot of the reason almost every xeno race hates them (The Eldar for instance) is because of their remarkably xenophobic nature, and their "Manifest Destiny" crap, their belief that it is their divine right to purge all other sentient life from the galaxy just because. This trait was present even when the Emperor was around, and was in fact promoted by him.

5. Blahblahblah buttmad Imperium fanboy, heard it all before.

If you want to play a "good" faction, go play the Tau. And even they are not saints.

Brother Coa wrote:For all lot this I will just say: no, you are wrong.
Like I said: it is easy to judge someone from a comfy warm chair in a comfy warm home...
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are. The proff is continued existence of Mankind, since in either way we would be a slaves to aliens or dead.

"No u" isn't an argument.

And all of that is justified, I just don't want to go into details. All I can say is: it is all justified, and of course - there will always be individuals who are bad. But I won't judge entire race for 1 fool ( example: I would hate Tau for massacring the civilians at Nimbosa by order of their mad commander. Or Imperials because they let man like Vandire get hold of power ). On the other hand servants of Chaos are 99% bad so they are hated.

Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.

The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.

Damn, when did dakka get so slowed.

Please don't use slowed as a synonym for bad/stupid/boring/other negative adjectives. And if you think Dakka's so awful ... well, it's a big internet. Thanks, Manchu.

Nurgle-They have a similar survival of the fittest attitude as the Imperium and are sometimes cruel but not much beyond that. They're surprisingly kind and nonjudgemental, kindly welcoming new worshippers into the Cult of Nurgle. I'd say these guys are a little better than the Imperium.

Excepting that to "come to the Cult of Nurgle" is to become infected with some sort of horrible pestilence that you can give to other people who look at you, even if you are just on TV.

Nurgle's equality is the equality of the grave.

I'm talking about basic systems. "Pulling the trigger is a plea for your bolter to loose its round. If it does not obey, its spirit is displeased, whether by rough treatment or failure to perform the rites and rituals of maintenance."

Yes, that's all pleasing to the War-Spirit of your weapon. If you don't follow the proper protocols, it stops working for you, because the War-Spirit is offended.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.

The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.

And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.

The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.

And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).

...the Imperium has the slaughter of non-human civilians as matter of policy, practice, and divine mandate as decreed by holy scripture.

Arturius wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.

The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.

And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).

...the Imperium has the slaughter of non-human civilians as matter of policy, practice, and divine mandate as decreed by holy scripture.

And what part of "30.000 years of constant alien attacks" did you not understand?
And when did Imperium in recent years killed non-Human civilians? I thought that only Tau have civilians now... ( I don't count legion times because World Eaters even eat loyal worlds ).