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Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines have something to add to this...not every planet in the Imperium is Necromunda, Krieg or Catachan you know. There are planets were life is good, I think Macragge, Terra and Ophelia VII count as planets for good life. And every planet in the Imperium is probably having decent life for it;s citizens without leaders going to much in harassing them.

Terra is terrible; the oceans boiled away due to environmental problems. There are archives the size of continents. Most people there are scribes forced underground to copy documents until they finally die. Ophelia VII is a torture planet, where people deemed heretics are tortured for years upon years until they finally die. Macragge was ruined by the Tyranids; its a desert wasteland. Also, like Terra, the oceans boiled, but this time it wasn't humanity's fault. All three of those planets are terrible, terrible places.

Brother Coa wrote:Tau citizen can't say whatever he want, just what his Etherial say to him. You can't even chosse what wil lyou be in life - they chosee that foe you, you can't even breed with other castes. And they are brainwashed so....

Yep, that's my point. They have terrible, terrible lives but they're too ignorant and brainwashed to really acknowledge it very much and as a result are usually happy, unless they're really smart in which case they'll be miserable until someone notices and executes them.

Brother Coa wrote:They are like ant's - they live only to serve Hive Mind and nothing else.

Yep, I agree with you over that also. Tyranids are pretty much Ants who are smarter regarding getting food and keeping the colony alive.

Brother Coa wrote:Well when you became mutant it isn't to hard to live there. And with your soul sold to Chaos Gods you can say whatever you want because it won't matter - you are their possession forever.

Yeah, the Chaos Gods own you, but unlike the Imperium they're a lot less likely to punish you for certain actions. However, they will probably eat your soul which I bet is unpleasant. I think the only exceptions were/are Horus and Abaddon, simply because the Gods competing over them so much cancels eachother out and no one in particular can get the soul/mutate them/destroy them. But even Abaddon has to be careful about to keeping the favor of all 4 at once, simply because the Chaos Gods are insane.

Yarrickshad wrote:The Tau's philosophy is a lie controlled by the ethereals, it doesn't even make sense to a Tau when there is no ethereal around to remind him. The Tau aren't rosy either apart from Nimbosa the Tau systematically butchered the population of the main capital on Gravalax when they lost control of the situation.

Where in For the Emperor was it said that the Tau "systematically butchered the population"? Causing some civilian losses in a war against a Genestealer cult is expected, and I don't recall them going out of their way to kill districts because they lost control.

Yarrickshad wrote:The Imperium is no saint, however they don't routinely murder Imperial citizens unless under dire circumstances.

Tell that to the uncorrupted Sisters of Battle at the Bloodtide incident, or the psykers sacrificed to the Emperor, or to the population of Armageddon (Who might as well have been killed). The Imperium has been around long enough and has experienced enough trouble to be properly paranoid, but it also can be flat out vicious.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Config2 wrote:The Necron are the good guys. Look at it, they aren't out to consume the life essence of everything

I get that you are joking, about them being the good guys, but I'm not sure you are about this.

"Consuming the life essence of everything" is the exact goal of the C'tan and their Necron servants. Mostly the C'tan. The Necrons just like the killing and misery it brings to the living.

Well, the C'tan would prefer to farm the sentient beings of the galaxy like cattle, consuming their life essence as a delicacy. Those would be the lucky ones. The rest of us would spend our days getting tortured for the giggles.

I'd personally prefer being in The Deceiver's prison if I had to choose between those fates predicted in the Necron codex, since at least that one would have me die with a smile on my face.

REALLY!?!!? just read the rest of sentence. If that doesn't clarify it for you YES IT IS A JOKE. I have played Crons for a loooooooong time, I have mastered their hazy and mysterious fluff about consuming souls. Mostly cause there is only about 6 pages of actual txt

This is so biased, it's not even worth a proper explanation.

Molten Butter wrote:Well, the C'tan would prefer to farm the sentient beings of the galaxy like cattle, consuming their life essence as a delicacy. Those would be the lucky ones. The rest of us would spend our days getting tortured for the giggles.

I'd personally prefer being in The Deceiver's prison if I had to choose between those fates predicted in the Necron codex, since at least that one would have me die with a smile on my face.

Those two fates are not mutually exclusive. The Nightbringer in particular prefers its lifeburgers sprinkled with torment and fear before it feeds.

Also, Config2, the C'tan don't technically eat souls. I am just saying.


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Molten Butter wrote:Tell that to the uncorrupted Sisters of Battle at the Bloodtide incident, or the psykers sacrificed to the Emperor, or to the population of Armageddon (Who might as well have been killed). The Imperium has been around long enough and has experienced enough trouble to be properly paranoid, but it also can be flat out vicious.

The Sisters killed at the Bloodtide incident were killed with reason: The Grey Knights needed their blood as a ward against the Bloodtide.

The psykers sacrificed to the Emperor sustain the Astronomicon, which the Imperium kinda needs.

I'd agree on Armageddon though, mostly.

LoneLictor wrote:
Terra is terrible; the oceans boiled away due to environmental problems. There are archives the size of continents. Most people there are scribes forced underground to copy documents until they finally die. Ophelia VII is a torture planet, where people deemed heretics are tortured for years upon years until they finally die. Macragge was ruined by the Tyranids; its a desert wasteland. Also, like Terra, the oceans boiled, but this time it wasn't humanity's fault. All three of those planets are terrible, terrible places.

Terra is like Corrusant from Star Wars ( as I remember Corrusant don't have oceans either, And air is generated by atmosphere processors ) archives are deep underground while buildings and Hive Cities are up on the surface and it's servitors that work down there - not people, and since Terra lost it's ocens long time ago peopel are using machines and other planets to generate, buy wather and are probably using some kind of tech for air and magnetic shielding. So it's not bad life after all. Ophelia VII is cardinal world full of beautiful buildings and such ( and of course that heretics must burn, what faith could you expect for the traitor to it's own race? ) and most people there are faitful citizens that worship the Emperor and bind his laws like their own ( Ophelia VII is like Vatican, last time I checked Rome is good place to live ). Where did you read that Macragge is desert world now? By the novels I read and the comics I saw from GW Macragge is still beautiful green planet it was before the invasion ( Nids didn't took any Biomass and it was 750 years after battle - the planet renewed itself ).

Brother Coa wrote:Well when you became mutant it isn't to hard to live there. And with your soul sold to Chaos Gods you can say whatever you want because it won't matter - you are their possession forever.

Yeah, the Chaos Gods own you, but unlike the Imperium they're a lot less likely to punish you for certain actions. However, they will probably eat your soul which I bet is unpleasant. I think the only exceptions were/are Horus and Abaddon, simply because the Gods competing over them so much cancels eachother out and no one in particular can get the soul/mutate them/destroy them. But even Abaddon has to be careful about to keeping the favor of all 4 at once, simply because the Chaos Gods are insane.

i mostly view the imperium as being the lesser evil compared to chaos

Yeah I don't know why anyone would think chaos is "good" all they do is kill for their own selfish gain. At least the imperium kills people for the good of mankind(what they do might sound horrible to us, but for them it's routine)

By no means is the imperium this bright shinning star of goodness, but they at least do horrible acts in order for humanity to live on.

And why are people hating on the Imperium(best faction) we should all unite under one banner and hate on Tau more...that's more fun.

Imperium is hated because it's still an evil. Lesser, but the evil. Why people didn't think about alternate ways besides Imperium and Chaos? And would they believe in their beloved God-Emperor if there weren't any Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition burning the heretics?

To sum it:

It's this:



Or this:



Now what video fit's the Imperium better?

Brother Coa wrote:To sum it:

It's this:



Or this:



Now what video fit's the Imperium better?

Actually they are two sides of one coin.
Imperium is still the best opportunity for humans, but its ideology and religion could be better because they prevent Imperium from further progress and development. Imperials can't even develop their technology further. That's because Imperium was tended to support itself in the state of the eternal war, but not to the evolution. Its regime is the same that it was 10000 years ago, after the HH. And it isn't strange that now the Imperium is slowly decaying.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it will fall. Imperium had harder times in the past then now, and it prevailed. And AM is researching new things, but progress is slow as they don't have theories how stuff work anymore and must invent anew.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:Tell that to the uncorrupted Sisters of Battle at the Bloodtide incident, or the psykers sacrificed to the Emperor, or to the population of Armageddon (Who might as well have been killed). The Imperium has been around long enough and has experienced enough trouble to be properly paranoid, but it also can be flat out vicious.

The Sisters killed at the Bloodtide incident were killed with reason: The Grey Knights needed their blood as a ward against the Bloodtide.

The psykers sacrificed to the Emperor sustain the Astronomicon, which the Imperium kinda needs.

I'd agree on Armageddon though, mostly.

I misread Yarrickshad's comment as "The Imperium doesn't routinely murder people under dire cirumstances," which is certainly different than what he actually said. Sorry, Yarrickshad.

Some people have a rather rosy view of the Imperium of Man. The place is a dystopian hell for the vast majority of mankind. Backbreaking and tedious work in some hive manufactorium where every sign of disobedience is severely punished is the rule for many, all in an atmosphere of constant fear and paranoia, for the alien, the heretic and the mutant are, at least according to the imperial authorities, every ready to strike.
If you endure the paranoia and the work then you better show some piety too, unless you want to burn on a witchfinders pyre. Oh, and heresy can be something as trivial as praying a few more minutes longer than
the sheduled praying time ( source: Blood of Martyrs ).
Still, if you are pious, obedient and uncomplaining ( just as good cattle should be ) then there is still the chance to die of some bureocratical oversight. Some administratum drone made a mistake and now your world is suposed to tithe foodstuff in the middle of a famine? Well, have fun starving. Your world's tithes have been doubled or trippled because of some emergency many hundreds of lightyears away? Well, don't even think
about complaining or you will probably end your days on a pyre.

In the Imperium of Man you are nothing, less than nothing even. You are the slave of your Imperial Govenor for the Imperium does not care if you are abused and exploited for as long as your leadership can fulfill it's obligations to the Imperium the lords of terra are content. in the Imperium of Man you are a slave, in some places a well fed one, but as soon as you take a step away from established imperial orthodoxy then you, your family and everyone you know will pay dearly for it.

The imperium's worst sin is perhaps that it claims that all this is necessary to protect mankind. That is wrong. The imperium is it's own greatest enemy. It is inefficient, backwards, utterly dogmatic and possibly
corrupted beyond help. It's very existence helps to spread the taint of chaos for who else but the dark gods is is there to provide succor to the abused masses when they have finaly enough of their wretched existance in the carriongod's name?

Im a BT and a DG player and both are the same to me they love to kill everything in their way.

Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.

deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.

Ok, but what about the concept of "innocence"?

A 6 month old child is innocent, they cannot be blamed for anything.

Salamanders and Ultramarines would try to save a child from a hive that was about to be bombed.

Slaanesh worshippers would happily rape babies and Khorne worshippers would cut them into pieces. Send a Khorne beserker and he would gleefully butcher everything living in there. How then can you possibly even attempt to square this circle?

Considering Chaos is the manifestation of all of mortals worst habits, its ludicrous to suggest that Chaos is more "good" than the IOM.

Space Nazi's they may be, but they there are some noble and selfless individuals amongst it that are willing to put themselves in harms way to assist innocent civilians that they believe to be "servants of the emperor", even if they are misguided and the emperor is nothing, their actions are still noble regardless.

The same cannot be said for Chaos, or any mortal that will harm others for their own pleasure. And that's the thing, the IOM carry out eterminatus when they rightly or wrongly feel they must, but slaanesh worshippers kill because they ENJOY it.

Frankly, I think the entire thread is ridiculous, and the only people that I can envisage saying that chaos are somehow the "good" guys are those weird fat goth's that like people to think that they are vampires or something.

You know, the moody fethers that never smile and think they are hip and chic and "unique" when they are merely fat boring and unoriginal.

mattyrm wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.

Space Nazi's they may be, but they there are some noble and selfless individuals amongst it that are willing to put themselves in harms way to assist innocent civilians that they believe to be "servants of the emperor", even if they are misguided and the emperor is nothing, their actions are still noble regardless.

I would even argue that most imperial citizens are no less decent than any other human being in their situation would be. The problem is their utterly corrupt leadership which, trough propaganda and fear, uses them to perpetuate the system which exploits them in the first place. In fact the rot goes so deep that comparisions to nurgle cultists aren't too far off. After all, both have long ago submitted to their seemingly unchangable situation or even find positive aspects within it.
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.

KingDeath wrote:
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.

Because Imperials don't take your soul and torture it and play with it for the rest of eternity.

Also, The Imperium is best outcome for Human race in that state.

Brother Coa wrote:To sum it:

It's this:



Or this:



Now what video fit's the Imperium better?

I reject your options and choose one of my of my own devising.

mattyrm wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:Well, in the end, my vote is for chaos.
Why you ask?
1. I don't believe in good and evil as absolute concepts.
2. I find chaos more aesthetically pleasing and that makes it "better" than the Imperium.

Ok, but what about the concept of "innocence"?

A 6 month old child is innocent, they cannot be blamed for anything.

Salamanders and Ultramarines would try to save a child from a hive that was about to be bombed.

No they wouldn't. A Space Marine is worth more than a child.

Durza wrote:
I reject your options and choose one of my of my own devising.

Spoiler:

Am I imagining things or are you praising the Imperium?

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.

Because Imperials don't take your soul and torture it and play with it for the rest of eternity.

Also, The Imperium is best outcome for Human race in that state.

No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
This doesn't mean that chaos is in any way better. Sure, at first it appears to be a way out of imperial opression.
The freedom granted by chaos is soon twisted and distorted beyond anything that a sane human being could want.

Because Imperials don't take your soul and torture it and play with it for the rest of eternity.

Also, The Imperium is best outcome for Human race in that state.

Imperium is best outcome for human race because GW didn't invent something else.

KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.

You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.


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Farseer Petriel wrote:
Imperium is best outcome for human race because GW didn't invent something else.

Because it's strict regime and religion is the only thing keeping Mankind together, in every other regime Humanity would fall because existence of other empires and private states will be possible and we would fight each-other as much as aliens and heretics.

Ironsight wrote:

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk America who murders countries of entire populations cause they have too many fricken bullets, or a Al-Qaeda who are just deoted followers of their god?

Fixed. I hope you realize how silly that post sounds now.

Gonna have to go with the Imperium.

This made my day.
...
...
...
It is satire, isn't it?


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Not all Chaos-aligned people are sadistic crazies. The Thousand Sons chapter never wanted what happened to them.
The Chaos Gods aren't entirely evil either. Without change, hope wouldn't be possible and society would stagnate, without decay the cycle of life would stop and everything would die, without honour people wouldn't care what others saw them as, without sex life would be a living hell...
The Imperium is the same, but without the spikes.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.

You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Petriel wrote:
Imperium is best outcome for human race because GW didn't invent something else.

Because it's strict regime and religion is the only thing keeping Mankind together, in every other regime Humanity would fall because existence of other empires and private states will be possible and we would fight each-other as much as aliens and heretics.

And what about that progressive Imperium planned by the Emperor? Would it exist in M41 if there weren't any HH?
I think it will be a good idea to spread Imperial Truth right now.
Dystopian regime creates suppressed filthy people who can be easliy corrupted by Chaos because it's very easy to prove that Imperium is unfair.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.

You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.

Pure speculation. I can speculate too. Societies like the Interrex, which managed to survive the terrible years of the long night largely undamaged, would have possibly provided a much better chance for the human species than the ultimately fractured and declining Imperium of Man. Besides that, whatever the carriongod planned for the human species he failed, badly. Not only did he tie the fate of his Imperium to the martian brotherhood, an organistion for which progress and inovation are signs of mindrust, his very actions also helped to disenchant half of it's newly forged imperium enough allow the catastrophe of the Horus Heresy. Sure, one can blame the warmaster and chaos for it, but both needed willing followers and the Emperor's incompetence was what provided those.
So no, the Imperium of Man is not the only way for the human species to survive, perhaps it is even the worst one.

The Emperor never said to anyone his plan, so High Lord assumed what he wanted anyway and continue that way.
The Emperor should pointed out Guiliman to sit on the throne until he is able to return. If only that happened...
This way Imperium is lead by rich aristocracy instead of Emperor's sons ( HLoT aldo have power are denied by majority of the Planetary Governors ).


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KingDeath wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
No, it is the very worst with the possible exception of a galaxy dominated by chaos ( although we probably couldn't speak of a human species in such a galaxy ).
There have been other human societies, which were mostly destroyed during the great crusade, which were a viable alternative to the Imperium of Man.

You do know that Emperor wanted atheist, progressed Human race? Not Dysoptian superstitious empire his Imperium has became. And Imperium is still the best because every other outcome will meant that Human race would not survive.

Pure speculation.

It is said so in the HH novels.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:
I reject your options and choose one of my of my own devising.

Spoiler:

Am I imagining things or are you praising the Imperium?

You're imagining it. I figure it shows how few of the Imperium's warriors actually give a damn about who they fight, and how many simply kill for the sake of it (kind of like their enemy). Also, I like the music.

Durza wrote:
You're imagining it. I figure it shows how few of the Imperium's warriors actually give a damn about who they fight, and how many simply kill for the sake of it (kind of like their enemy). Also, I like the music.

What? This clearly shows how faithfully they fight in the Emperor's name, it show they loyalty and their faith unbroken. It truly is masterpiece.
Every kill is for the Emperor, every sacrifice is for the Emperor oh joy...