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Well, I would say the Imperium is the "better" of the two factions.

You might get executed/tortured/killed in the Imperium, but usually for some reason. Chaos has this whole MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! attitude towards normal citizens. At least in the Imperium you won't get killed by simple bloodlust, sacrificed for no reason to the chaos gods or stuff like that.

Brother Coa wrote:

Arturius wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.

The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.

And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).

...the Imperium has the slaughter of non-human civilians as matter of policy, practice, and divine mandate as decreed by holy scripture.

And what part of "30.000 years of constant alien attacks" did you not understand?
And when did Imperium in recent years killed non-Human civilians? I thought that only Tau have civilians now... ( I don't count legion times because World Eaters even eat loyal worlds ).

Constant attacks from aliens does not "justify" killing other, completely unrelated, aliens. Murdering someone who has never hurt you, never had cause to hurt you, and never had any interest or intention of hurting you, because someone with nothing to do with your victim keeps attacking you, is pretty much the opposite of justified.

And the Imperium kills alien civilians all the time. Standard first contact procedure is genocide and settlement of the newly uninhabited planet. The Tau were slated for it, except that warp storms made transit to T'au impossible long enough for the tau to advance their position, and become slightly harder to exterminate. The species was just another entry on the big "to exterminate" list.

The 40K galaxy is full of weird aliens, and plenty of civilizations fit in between the cracks of the Codex races. To get attention on a Codex-level scale, for the most part, you need to have a population of trillions and a cultural/biological tendency for massive, unending, apocalyptic warfare. Part of the point of the Tau codex was to show the smaller scale, and give an example of the alien civilizations that usually show up in passing mention.

Arturius wrote:

Constant attacks from aliens does not "justify" killing other, completely unrelated, aliens. Murdering someone who has never hurt you, never had cause to hurt you, and never had any interest or intention of hurting you, because someone with nothing to do with your victim keeps attacking you, is pretty much the opposite of justified.

And the Imperium kills alien civilians all the time. Standard first contact procedure is genocide and settlement of the newly uninhabited planet. The Tau were slated for it, except that warp storms made transit to T'au impossible long enough for the tau to advance their position, and become slightly harder to exterminate. The species was just another entry on the big "to exterminate" list.

The 40K galaxy is full of weird aliens, and plenty of civilizations fit in between the cracks of the Codex races. To get attention on a Codex-level scale, for the most part, you need to have a population of trillions and a cultural/biological tendency for massive, unending, apocalyptic warfare. Part of the point of the Tau codex was to show the smaller scale, and give an example of the alien civilizations that usually show up in passing mention.

Yes it does. It's: "better to kill it now then let him to hurt me later." And Tau are good example of this, if the Imperium wipe them out then - they wouldn't have any problems now around their region of space. So I see the extermination of aliens in 40k justified, they don't like us - so they can only die in that case.
And once an alien - always an alien.... Glory to the Mankind

Brother Coa wrote:And all of that is justified, I just don't want to go into details. All I can say is: it is all justified, and of course - there will always be individuals who are bad. But I won't judge entire race for 1 fool ( example: I would hate Tau for massacring the civilians at Nimbosa by order of their mad commander. Or Imperials because they let man like Vandire get hold of power ). On the other hand servants of Chaos are 99% bad so they are hated.

Plugging your ears and screaming "Nanananananana" also is not an argument.

Karamazov isn't just an individual, his actions are often lauded and rewarded by the Imperium.

Stop talking about Chaos. If you actually read my posts you would know that I already said that the majority of Chaos worshippers are morally more reprehensible than the Imperium, only an idiot would deny that (Though whether or not Chaos is "evil" is debateable), but fact of the matter is not every atrocity the Imperium makes is justified, nor is it truly presented as such.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes it does. It's: "better to kill it now then let him to hurt me later." And Tau are good example of this, if the Imperium wipe them out then - they wouldn't have any problems now around their region of space. So I see the extermination of aliens in 40k justified, they don't like us - so they can only die in that case.
And once an alien - always an alien.... Glory to the Mankind

There is a possibility everyone you meet may hurt you later.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, not EVERY xeno in 40k wishes to kill humanity, the Diasphorex example being by far the most prominent example. Do said non-threatening xenos get as much exposure? No, but that is because all the factions need to have a reason to fight eachother, aka, they all need to be hostile.

Seriously, I don't know how you can sit there and claim that the Space Nazis (Seriously, that's what they are) are completely justified in every action.

They believe that they are the only sentient race that deserves to exist in the galaxy by virtue of the "racial purity" of the human form, they are all massively bigoted, and the Imperium promotes ignorance as a virtue.

Your "argument" (If you can truly call such debating techniques such as "No u" and "Nah ah I'm right ur wraung") falls apart when one begins to apply any sort of rational logic to it.

Please stop.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And all of that is justified, I just don't want to go into details. All I can say is: it is all justified, and of course - there will always be individuals who are bad. But I won't judge entire race for 1 fool ( example: I would hate Tau for massacring the civilians at Nimbosa by order of their mad commander. Or Imperials because they let man like Vandire get hold of power ). On the other hand servants of Chaos are 99% bad so they are hated.

Plugging your ears and screaming "Nanananananana" also is not an argument.

Karamazov isn't just an individual, his actions are often lauded and rewarded by the Imperium.

Stop talking about Chaos. If you actually read my posts you would know that I already said that the majority of Chaos worshippers are morally more reprehensible than the Imperium, only an idiot would deny that (Though whether or not Chaos is "evil" is debateable), but fact of the matter is not every atrocity the Imperium makes is justified, nor is it truly presented as such.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes it does. It's: "better to kill it now then let him to hurt me later." And Tau are good example of this, if the Imperium wipe them out then - they wouldn't have any problems now around their region of space. So I see the extermination of aliens in 40k justified, they don't like us - so they can only die in that case.
And once an alien - always an alien.... Glory to the Mankind

There is a possibility everyone you meet may hurt you later.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, not EVERY xeno in 40k wishes to kill humanity, the Diasphorex example being by far the most prominent example. Do said non-threatening xenos get as much exposure? No, but that is because all the factions need to have a reason to fight eachother, aka, they all need to be hostile.

Seriously, I don't know how you can sit there and claim that the Space Nazis (Seriously, that's what they are) are completely justified in every action.

They believe that they are the only sentient race that deserves to exist in the galaxy by virtue of the "racial purity" of the human form, they are all massively bigoted, and the Imperium promotes ignorance as a virtue.

Your "argument" (If you can truly call such debating techniques such as "No u" and "Nah ah I'm right ur wraung") falls apart when one begins to apply any sort of rational logic to it.

Please stop.

Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).

And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!

Brother Coa wrote:Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).

And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!

So basically your argument is: Bigotry is good.

I suppose rational logic cannot be applied to 40k, in that the Imperium is populated largely by idiots and the ignorant.

Much of what Mankind does doesn't help them, it is detrimental to them.

You're barking up the wrong tree with that "Heresy" stuff, you're just crops to be harvested to me.

Brother Coa wrote:
Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).

And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!

So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?

illuknisaa wrote:So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?

Obviously.

The infallible logic of bigotry.

Void__Dragon wrote:So basically your argument is: Bigotry is good.

It is when the alternative is a horrible, horrible death. Even in today's society, if it meant escaping species-wide extinction, we'd dress up in a uniform and sing the campfire song song around burn-piles of our enemy (and we'd still label the Nazis evil).
That's the brink Humanity has been pushed to. We've been there for more than 40,000 years.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I suppose rational logic cannot be applied to 40k, in that the Imperium is populated largely by idiots and the ignorant.

Many Imperials may not be educated, but that doesn't mean they aren't any more or less intelligent than you or I.
The Inquisition is certainly some of the most well informed people in the galaxy, and it's rare for them to lose their way. Remember that for every Karamzov you get an Eisenhorn as well.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Much of what Mankind does doesn't help them, it is detrimental to them.

Imperium doesn't put billions to the sword just for the lulz. Everything they do is the result of a 40,000 year history we haven't been a part of.
Prior to the Age of Strife, the Human confederacies had plenty of trade agreements and alliances with xeno empires. When it hit the fan, Humanity turned to their alien allies in the hopes of mutual survival. Instead of aid, Humanity was taken advantage of in their moment of weakness. Lots of people died. Lots of people died. Humanity has not forgotten this. Humanity may have destroyed some potential allies, but as a certain Chapter Master once said: the strong are strongest alone. Better to rely on those of your own species than xenos with their own interests.

illuknisaa wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Ok, I will make it simple that you can understand. My whole argument is: Humanity above all else. Xeno races have their chance in the past, we learned that it is better to kill them all then to let them developed so that they can turn on us later. And as Gabriel Angelos said: "Innocent die so that Humanity may live". And 21'st century rational logic can't be applied in 40k because it is so totally different ( we are not facing extinction and thus we are not going into extreme with everything ).

And what are you trying to say? That galaxy is not ours to rule? HERESY!!!

So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?

In the last line maybe. However the rest of what he says is true.

The Tau are a perfect example, in this thing. As you said they were due to be exterminated, but there was a warp storm. Now they are on their way to threatening the safety of humanity. And as I said before the Diashporex was predated by the tragedy that was the Interex. Horus tried to negotiate with Interex, but was attacked over a misunderstanding. The Interex did not give him a chance to clear his name and a war was waged that killed many men of the Imperium. When the choice is between Bigotry and the death of my race I would gladly choose bigotry.

Void__Dragon wrote:So basically your argument is: Bigotry is good.

I suppose rational logic cannot be applied to 40k, in that the Imperium is populated largely by idiots and the ignorant.

Much of what Mankind does doesn't help them, it is detrimental to them.

You're barking up the wrong tree with that "Heresy" stuff, you're just crops to be harvested to me.

And you have now just proven my point: how can I argue with brainless automaton?
Why don't you make me a coffee instead of trying implementing logic to unlogical things?
And most Human race, even today, is stupid an arrogant. That is in our nature and can't be helped. But that doesn't mean that Humans can't be intelligent ( smart and intelligent isn't the same. Delhin is intelligent but not smart ) and sometimes act wit hreason and compassion. But as for aliens today we would see them as neutral ( friend or foe ) in 40k Humans see them only as a threat.
And you are missing the main point here - Mankind is so old now that they know that is the best to kill an alien then to risk them hurting them later.

And you didn't tell anything about Chaos? Tell me what they do that's good?


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illuknisaa wrote:
So you are actually saying that humanity is somehow better than xeno races and that alone justifies killing them?

After seeing what they did to us in the last 40.000 years.... You are right. We must scin them first alive, then bath then in salt and then let them die - on the Sun.

Brother Coa wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And Imperium is justified, all of their actions are.

The actions of Cardinal Buccharis and Goge Vandire would disagree with you.

And again that's the individuals. You can't judge the whole race or empire because of feww individuals ( Then Tau are definitively evil since they slaughtered the population of Nimbosa, civilians to be precise ).

You are saying that the whole of the imperium and its actions are justified.

These are members of the Imperium, therefore their actions were justified, you can't back peddle, it's hardly a few individuals either.

Chaos and the Imperium are not so far removed from each other, they just have different intentions. The Imperium might eradicate a population so that they don't all starve to death, the forces of Chaos might destroy a population for the hell of it.

Not all members of the Inquisition have the best interest of the Imperium at heart. Quixos might have done, but if he was left to achieve his goal, the Imperium would have been doomed.

I think you have been listening to too much Imperial propaganda Coa

Pilau Rice wrote:
I think you have been listening to too much Imperial propaganda Coa

And I think you have been listening to many heretics and alien liars Brother Rice...
Let me redeem you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:
You are saying that the whole of the imperium and its actions are justified.

These are members of the Imperium, therefore their actions were justified, you can't back peddle, it's hardly a few individuals either.

Chaos and the Imperium are not so far removed from each other, they just have different intentions. The Imperium might eradicate a population so that they don't all starve to death, the forces of Chaos might destroy a population for the hell of it.

Not all members of the Inquisition have the best interest of the Imperium at heart. Quixos might have done, but if he was left to achieve his goal, the Imperium would have been doomed.

They are, read the entries above. And you must take a whole picture - not just 2 individuals and their agenda.

Brother Coa wrote:
And I think you have been listening to many heretics and alien liars Brother Rice...
Let me redeem you

Spoken like a true follower

Brother Coa wrote:They are, read the entries above. And you must take a whole picture - not just 2 individuals and their agenda.

So because it's justified, it's right is it?

Everyone has their own agenda, the Emperor being the worst of them all. What right did he have to eradicate alien races that had been ancient when he was young?

The whole picture is that the Imperium isn't all smiles and sunshine like you say it is.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And I think you have been listening to many heretics and alien liars Brother Rice...
Let me redeem you

Spoken like a true follower

Thanks...

Brother Coa wrote:They are, read the entries above. And you must take a whole picture - not just 2 individuals and their agenda.

So because it's justified, it's right is it?

Everyone has their own agenda, the Emperor being the worst of them all. What right did he have to eradicate alien races that had been ancient when he was young?

The whole picture is that the Imperium isn't all smiles and sunshine like you say it is.

Brother Coa wrote:
And the Emperor don't hate aliens, there is nowhere mere mention on that. And the thing that his legions do under his sons doesen't count for him being a hater ( if he had true control over his legions you think that Horus Heresy would happened at all ).

It was his agenda to unite mankind, what ever got in his way became dead. He lead the forces of the Imperium for pretty much 200 years before Horus was made Warmaster. To say he hated the Alien might be wrong, but to say he would live hand in hand with them is also wrong.

Brother Coa wrote:And say something about Chaos being the "good guys"? Why only attack Imeprium?

Chaos are not the good guys, in any way, i'm just saying nor are the Imperium when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, but they are portrayed to be the good guys in the story.

If you've read Legion you'll see that until the Imperium of man came along, the people of Nurth seemed to be relatively normal and they were Chaos worshipers through and through, to say that all chaos is violence and rape is wrong in my opinion. Stories about these guys wouldn't make for a very entertaining read however.

Ironsight wrote:It is when the alternative is a horrible, horrible death. Even in today's society, if it meant escaping species-wide extinction, we'd dress up in a uniform and sing the campfire song song around burn-piles of our enemy (and we'd still label the Nazis evil).
That's the brink Humanity has been pushed to. We've been there for more than 40,000 years.

Many Imperials may not be educated, but that doesn't mean they aren't any more or less intelligent than you or I.
The Inquisition is certainly some of the most well informed people in the galaxy, and it's rare for them to lose their way. Remember that for every Karamzov you get an Eisenhorn as well.

Imperium doesn't put billions to the sword just for the lulz. Everything they do is the result of a 40,000 year history we haven't been a part of.
Prior to the Age of Strife, the Human confederacies had plenty of trade agreements and alliances with xeno empires. When it hit the fan, Humanity turned to their alien allies in the hopes of mutual survival. Instead of aid, Humanity was taken advantage of in their moment of weakness. Lots of people died. Lots of people died. Humanity has not forgotten this. Humanity may have destroyed some potential allies, but as a certain Chapter Master once said: the strong are strongest alone. Better to rely on those of your own species than xenos with their own interests.

1. Humanity is on the brink of annihilation due to the arrogance and stupidity of the man it worships as a god. Now, while I won't fault them for not realising the Emperor's own shortcomings, since, as a reader, I have a more omniscient view of the situation than the Imperium does. But the Imperium doesn't just kill the alien because it "has" to, they view it as their "right" to, they view human supremacy as their divine right, and have since the days of the Great Crusade. Hell, Fulgrim outright states that the reason they are exterminating the Laer (The extermination of this particular xenos species is not in of itself "wrong" for lack of better term due to them being violent Slaaneshi worshippers, but wrong due to his intent), is because unlike humans, they are not "perfect," and as such are unworthy of living in their vision of a perfect galaxy. This was before Fulgrim began being influenced by Chaos.

And do note that "justified" does not equal "morally good," it's not quite that black and white.

2. That's not really what I meant. The Imperium promotes ignorance as a virtue. Karamazov didn't "lose his way," he's quite the Puritan actually. Doesn't Eisenhorn gradually become more Radical as time goes on? Though really, this is all beside the point.

Another good example is Commander Chenkov. A man who is so incompetent, or so lazy, that he is unable or unwilling to actually form strategies or be tactically flexible as a good commander should be, that he solves every problem by throwing men at it until it's not a problem anymore. "Quantity has a quality all its own," the Stalin approach. Now, while sacrificing men, while not a good action, can be justified if it is necessary, in his case it is not, he's just too lazy or stupid to do otherwise. He is lauded and rewarded by the Imperium for his stupidity.

3. I didn't say they did. Admittedly, I am not particularly well-versed on this time period of Mankind in the fluff, but the only example Lexicanum gives is the Orks as a race that preyed on Mankind while it was weak. I'm not saying that slaughtering every Ork you see is morally reprehensible, that is completely justified, and you would almost have to be insane to not do so.

Relying on your own species is fine, and I could understand being unwilling to propagate "Xenos love," but the Imperium is so outwardly hostile to all Xenos they find that it only incites hostility towards them... Like the Eldar, who treat humanity with disdain as they do largely because of their anti-xenos ways and the Great Crusade. That is but the most prominent example of a race they practically set against them, though it should be said the Eldar are at least willing to cooperate with humanity occasionally.

I am not saying the Imperium is an empire of mustache-twirling cartoon characters, they are more complicated than that, and while some of their actions can be justified, not all are, and their nature in some ways hurts them as much as it helps them. Hence, Grimdark. Obviously, they are one of the less evil factions in 40k. But I would never call them "good."

Nicholas wrote:In the last line maybe. However the rest of what he says is true.

The Tau are a perfect example, in this thing. As you said they were due to be exterminated, but there was a warp storm. Now they are on their way to threatening the safety of humanity. And as I said before the Diashporex was predated by the tragedy that was the Interex. Horus tried to negotiate with Interex, but was attacked over a misunderstanding. The Interex did not give him a chance to clear his name and a war was waged that killed many men of the Imperium. When the choice is between Bigotry and the death of my race I would gladly choose bigotry.

The Interex thought that the taint of Chaos was present on the 63rd Expedition Fleet. They were completely correct, and Erebus, a World Bearer tainted by Chaos, infiltrated some museum of their's and blew it the hell up, stealing a dangerous Daemonblade. Horus was then mortally wounded by Eugen Temba, an Imperial, also tainted by Chaos. The Interex incident wasn't even mentioned by MAnus or anyone during the Diasphorex take-over. Hell, the only argument for why they shouldn't leave them around is "No we shouldn't."

Circular logic was quite popular with the Imperium then and still is, hell, this iterator in Horus Rising whose name I forget outright says, and was greeted with massive applause,"We are not right because we think we are right, we are right because we know we are right!" or something to that effect, unironically ignoring that there is no difference between the two.

Brother Coa wrote:And you have now just proven my point: how can I argue with brainless automaton?
Why don't you make me a coffee instead of trying implementing logic to unlogical things?
And most Human race, even today, is stupid an arrogant. That is in our nature and can't be helped. But that doesn't mean that Humans can't be intelligent ( smart and intelligent isn't the same. Delhin is intelligent but not smart ) and sometimes act wit hreason and compassion. But as for aliens today we would see them as neutral ( friend or foe ) in 40k Humans see them only as a threat.
And you are missing the main point here - Mankind is so old now that they know that is the best to kill an alien then to risk them hurting them later.

And you didn't tell anything about Chaos? Tell me what they do that's good?

So you admit the Imperium is idiotic?

Oh boy oh boy look someone's trying to be cynical! We're stupid, huh? Odd, I could have sworn we are vastly more intelligent than any other species we know of, and objectively, are inherently superior. But the Imperium can't make that claim, since there are other sentient species in the galaxy, every bit as intelligent as they are, or even more-so.

That's the thing, that's what you ignore. If that were truly, honestly, the reason the Imperium purged the xeno, that could "kinda" be considered a real justification. But the Imperium kills the alien due to the fact that they believe them inherently inferior, not as "perfect" as humanity, and for that crime they should die. Prejudice formed from experience is sort of understandable, prejudice formed from arrogance and ignorance is not, though you would be hard-pressed to ever find an example where bigotry is morally "good."

Okay, no, stop it. Read my posts, I have said multiple times that Chaos Cultists are on a whole "worse" than the Imperium, stop bringing up something I answered on the first page.

And stop confusing "Not as bad as some of the other factions" as "Good."

Even if all of their actions are justified, it doesn't make them good. There is a difference.

I feel OP is totally biased, but if anything I would have to go with Imperium due to the fact that even though some branches of the Imperium are a little less moral than others it doens't negate the entirety of good the Imperium wants for humanity. Notice I said Humanity not all of the Xeno Scum patroling the Galaxy...except orks. They cool

This is easily personal preference. According to the lore of Chaos, Chaos holds the universe together, and while Chaos may kill people, those who are not killed live a greater life of freedom and anti-imperialism. However, the Imperium is just trying to protect those not tainted by Chaos, because the human mind is easily corrupted. The Imperium is corrupted in certain plaes, like some in The Adeptus Terra are corrupt, but it is few who can bring the Imperium down. And also, only the Inquisition kills worlds, and thats if it's daemon infested, or xeno infested, and usually Denizens of The Imperium never find out until decades, centuries, or even thousands of years later. I personally prefer the Imperium.

Void__Dragon wrote:So you admit the Imperium is idiotic?

Oh boy oh boy look someone's trying to be cynical! We're stupid, huh? Odd, I could have sworn we are vastly more intelligent than any other species we know of, and objectively, are inherently superior. But the Imperium can't make that claim, since there are other sentient species in the galaxy, every bit as intelligent as they are, or even more-so.

That's the thing, that's what you ignore. If that were truly, honestly, the reason the Imperium purged the xeno, that could "kinda" be considered a real justification. But the Imperium kills the alien due to the fact that they believe them inherently inferior, not as "perfect" as humanity, and for that crime they should die. Prejudice formed from experience is sort of understandable, prejudice formed from arrogance and ignorance is not, though you would be hard-pressed to ever find an example where bigotry is morally "good."

Okay, no, stop it. Read my posts, I have said multiple times that Chaos Cultists are on a whole "worse" than the Imperium, stop bringing up something I answered on the first page.

And stop confusing "Not as bad as some of the other factions" as "Good."

Even if all of their actions are justified, it doesn't make them good. There is a difference.

And you are missing the point here...

Imperium is not good, but it's not evil either...

Let us say this, Imperium is evil because they have no real alternative ( survive or die ). While Chaos is pure evil and they do it for fun.
But that not means I will not stand with my race in it's dark hour, unlike some people here.....

Brother Coa wrote:And you are missing the point here...

Imperium is not good, but it's not evil either...

Let us say this, Imperium is evil because they have no real alternative ( survive or die ). While Chaos is pure evil and they do it for fun.
But that not means I will not stand with my race in it's dark hour, unlike some people here.....

At its best it is neutral. At its worst it verges into evil. And even when neutral on a whole, it commits evil.

Chaos doesn't "do it for fun," or rather, that is not why people join Chaos. Chaos does count among its ranks vile individuals, yes, Fabius Bile in particular stands out.

But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.

"Stand with my race in its dark hour"? What are you talking about?

Void__Dragon wrote:
"Stand with my race in its dark hour"? What are you talking about?

Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.

In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:
But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.

So all except Slaanesh are good?

Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
"Stand with my race in its dark hour"? What are you talking about?

Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.

In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...

No, people collect other factions because they like the aesthetics, the background and/or gameplay out of personal preference. Last I checked, most people collect an imperial faction anyway.

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:
But the followers of Tzeentch are more sympathetic than you might think, followers of Nurgle are one big family that loves eachother, and even Khornates count among them honorable individuals. Admittedly, followers of Slaanesh tend to be extremely vile, even by Chaos standards.

So all except Slaanesh are good?

Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?

Void_Dragon has already stated numerous times that Chaos is not 'good'.

As for myself, I certainly agree that the Imperium's actions are of course the much lesser of two evils, but like Chaos more because IMO because every aspect of them is insamely cool (except failaddon ).

Brother Coa wrote:Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.

In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...

Uh... What? No they don't, are you serious?

What do you think I play Necrons because the Imperium is dying? I play them because I like, as Deathly Angel explained above me, their aesthetic and background, along with the overall "feel" of the faction.

Holy crap I cannot believe you are trying to insinuate people who prefer other factions in 40k or other SF or Fantasy universes are race traitors.

Brother Coa wrote:So all except Slaanesh are good?

Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?

You're not particularly bright, are you?

Since I have said multiple times on the whole Chaos is worse than the Imperium.

But no, the Chaos Gods are not evil. They aren't even sentient. Daemons however, can be and often are evil, having more "free will" than the Gods. Most Cultists are as well (Though as I said, Slaanesh tends to attract the worst).

Khornates are as capable of martial champions with a code of honour who strive to overcome impossible odds as they are to be bloodthirsty madmen (Unfortunately though, this aspect of Khorne has been downplayed in favor of the bloodthirsty madmen).

Nurgle cultists happily and lovingly embrace their brothers and new followers.

Tzeentch also doesn't actually have a goal. But... What's wrong with knowing gak...? As I said, many Tzeentch cultists, such as the Thousand Sons legion, are more sympathetic than you might think.

The Imperium is the lesser of two evils, but neither faction is completely black and white like you seem to think.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Well many people choose other factions ( mostly Chaos, Tau and Necrons ) because Mankind is slowly going into peril ( just look at the name of time after the 41'st millennium: "the end times" ) and most people don't want to play with faction that is going to lose in the end.

In 40k I will never turn my back on my brothers and sisters, I shall stand with them even if GW one day decide to put Imperium to rest and leave only alien races in the galaxy ( but that is fantasy at best ). I will stand with Humanity in 40k and every other sci-fi and epic fantasy universe - unlike some people...

Uh... What? No they don't, are you serious?

What do you think I play Necrons because the Imperium is dying? I play them because I like, as Deathly Angel explained above me, their aesthetic and background, along with the overall "feel" of the faction.

Holy crap I cannot believe you are trying to insinuate people who prefer other factions in 40k or other SF or Fantasy universes are race traitors.

They are...they must all burn in hell for betraying their race - you to.
And who are the most numerous Imperial players: 10 - 17 years old kids. When they grow up a little more and see the whole picture they are swapping for other factions like mad. Indeed, who would liek to play with faction that will lose in the end...

Brother Coa wrote:So all except Slaanesh are good?

Khorne wants a oceans of blood in his name.
Nurgle want to rot everything.
Tzeentch is not that bad - he only want's to know gak and rule everyone else. What's wrong with that?

You're not particularly bright, are you? LOL, brain-dead space robot zobies told me that, how shamed I am

Since I have said multiple times on the whole Chaos is worse than the Imperium.

But no, the Chaos Gods are not evil. They aren't even sentient. Daemons however, can be and often are evil, having more "free will" than the Gods. Most Cultists are as well (Though as I said, Slaanesh tends to attract the worst).

Khornates are as capable of martial champions with a code of honour who strive to overcome impossible odds as they are to be bloodthirsty madmen (Unfortunately though, this aspect of Khorne has been downplayed in favor of the bloodthirsty madmen).

Nurgle cultists happily and lovingly embrace their brothers and new followers.

Tzeentch also doesn't actually have a goal. But... What's wrong with knowing gak...? As I said, many Tzeentch cultists, such as the Thousand Sons legion, are more sympathetic than you might think.

The Imperium is the lesser of two evils, but neither faction is completely black and white like you seem to think.

Brother Coa wrote:They are...they must all burn in hell for betraying their race - you to.
And who are the most numerous Imperial players: 10 - 17 years old kids. When they grow up a little more and see the whole picture they are swapping for other factions like mad. Indeed, who would liek to play with faction that will lose in the end...

I loled. You're a friggin' riot dude. I sincerely hope you are joking.

People don't quit playing the Imperium and move onto another race just because the Imperium is doomed, indeed, that is arguably their main draw. The Imperium on a whole is the most popular faction, and not just among children.

I like Necrons and Orks for their background and aesthetic (And in the case of the Orks' case, because they're funny), I decided I would main them. Another assumption you are making is that I dislike the Imperium.

I don't. I like the Imperium on a whole, and have played a Space Marine armies and Black Templar armies. I would like to try Imperial Guard eventually.

Brother Coa wrote: LOL, brain-dead space robot zobies told me that, how shamed I am [/b]

Go pray to a toaster.

Brother Coa wrote:You said that they are not evil. But you are trying so hard to implement that Imperium is in fact much bigger evil then Chaos. It's like saying "Hell is evil, but Haven is not good to and here is why...". You are implementing that Imperium so bad this whole thread that I am now starting to think that Choas Gods are good indeed - thank's a lot brain-dead zombie

I say that the Chaos Gods are not evil. How can you consider beings without free will evil? The Daemons and Cultists on the other hand have free will, they often are evil. And no, I am not trying to say the Imperium is a bigger evil than Chaos... Only that it does in fact commit and act evil at times. In what way does that statement imply I think Chaos is good? Chaos is evil, but the Imperium is not good. I have told you why. :3 Just because the Imperium is opposed to Chaos doesn't make them good... The C'tan are opposed to Chaos, are they good?

P.S. The answer is no, the C'tan are more vile beings than the Chaos Gods ever were.


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Brother Coa wrote: implements

Also, you keep using this word.

I am pretty sure that word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I loled. You're a friggin' riot dude. I sincerely hope you are joking.

I am not joking. When I was getting into college I put in "citizenship" - Terran. I play in ever sci-fi as Human. And I considered people who get to much into their "non-Human" factions a traitors to our race - and that is the ultimate heresy.

( Seriously dude, my profile picture didn't get you enough clues. I made it... )

Brother Coa wrote:
Go pray to a toaster.

I don't have a toaster - we don't use that crap we use something else. And I am talking with my computer on regular basis - what is wrong with that?
And when my car doesn't work I say: "Why won't you work damn you?". So your point is that I am a Tech-Priest?

Brother Coa wrote:
I say that the Chaos Gods are not evil. How can you consider beings without free will evil? The Daemons and Cultists on the other hand have free will, they often are evil. And no, I am not trying to say the Imperium is a bigger evil than Chaos... Only that it does in fact commit and act evil at times. In what way does that statement imply I think Chaos is good? Chaos is evil, but the Imperium is not good. I have told you why. :3 Just because the Imperium is opposed to Chaos doesn't make them good... The C'tan are opposed to Chaos, are they good?

P.S. The answer is no, the C'tan are more vile beings than the Chaos Gods ever were.

Ah....you are wrong - Chaos Gods are sentient beings. If you even tried to read about them you would see. And they have free will, just read 5'th edition rule-book, Chaos Daemons section - they are actually having a contest who's minions will take over planet first. I hardly call that not evil, playing games with one another while population of a planet is slowly dying out...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote: implements

Also, you keep using this word.

I am pretty sure that word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Brother Coa wrote:I am not joking. When I was getting into college I put in "citizenship" - Terran. I play in ever sci-fi as Human. And I considered people who get to much into their "non-Human" factions a traitors to our race - and that is the ultimate heresy.

( Seriously dude, my profile picture didn't get you enough clues. I made it... )

I am getting the serious feeling you are trolling me now. I really, really hope you are trolling me.

The Imperium, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Chaos, Eldar, etc... Are fictional. You are not a race traitor for preferring something other than human in a fictional setting.

Brother Coa wrote:I don't have a toaster - we don't use that crap we use something else. And I am talking with my computer on regular basis - what is wrong with that?
And when my car doesn't work I say: "Why won't you work damn you?". So your point is that I am a Tech-Priest?

Please stop this.

Brother Coa wrote:Ah....you are wrong - Chaos Gods are sentient beings. If you even tried to read about them you would see. And they have free will, just read 5'th edition rule-book, Chaos Daemons section - they are actually having a contest who's minions will take over planet first. I hardly call that not evil, playing games with one another while population of a planet is slowly dying out...

I'm afraid not. The Chaos Gods are entirely defined by the emotions of all mortal races in the galaxy (Except for the C'tan, Necrons, and those with the Pariah Gene), their personalities and the actions resulting from them are entirely dictated by the mortal races. They have an "illusion" of free will, but that is all it is, an illusion.

You also have to understand that mortal concepts of morality don't really apply to them regardless, to Tzeentch and Nurgle especially.

Brother Coa wrote:Uh...( great being corrected by brain-dead robot zombie, now I can shoot myself ), I wanted to say that "you are trying in all ways to show us that Imeprium is bad and Chaos is good - even dough you are saying that Chaos is evil one".

The word you were looking for is "implies," not "implements." Just something I noticed, and not just in this thread either.

Brother Coa wrote:Seriously there are only 2 options here: Good and Evil. You can't put Good on Chaos Gods and evil on the Imperium. Think off all that poor Guardsman defending... oh, you are an alien follower and you don't give a damn. Oh well....

No, those are not the only two options, it is not black and white. The Imperium does of course have decent, honest, or at the least neutral people in it, and would say that they have a higher ratio of such individuals than Chaos.

The Chaos Gods are not good, nor are they evil. They are not sentient, more akin to a force of nature that must be stopped if the galaxy is to survive, like a raging forest fire.

And once more: The Imperium is sympathetic. One of the most sympathetic factions.

But, the cultists of Chaos can be sympathetic as well.

Frankly, your simplistic notions that Imperium=Pure Good and Chaos=Pure evil detracts from what makes the setting of 40k so compelling: No side is truly guiltless, not entirely, and even the cultists of Chaos often have very legitimate reasons for rebelling... But ultimately, all but the strongest of will who turn to Chaos will lose sight of why they rebelled in the first place, and become shadows of what they once were, pawns to the Ruinous Powers and their insane game.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I am not joking. When I was getting into college I put in "citizenship" - Terran. I play in ever sci-fi as Human. And I considered people who get to much into their "non-Human" factions a traitors to our race - and that is the ultimate heresy.

( Seriously dude, my profile picture didn't get you enough clues. I made it... )

I am getting the serious feeling you are trolling me now. I really, really hope you are trolling me.

The Imperium, Necrons, Orks, Tau, Chaos, Eldar, etc... Are fictional. You are not a race traitor for preferring something other than human in a fictional setting.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes you are a traitor, as well as all those people ( alien fanatics who only implements that Imeprium should die ). And you stop trolling me with s***** questions.

umad?

Also, the word you are looking for is "implies."

yumadtho?

Brother Coa wrote:What is it? Can't respond brain-dead flesh tearing robot zombie

Stop being so super serious gai.

Brother Coa wrote:I know, I also laugh when some American start to talk in my language.

You're welcome.

Brother Coa wrote:Then 40k - as well as entire universe is grey. There is no Good and Evil - just mix of that 2 in everything. Somewhere more and somewhere less.
I will not start the religion part since that also take a large portion in 40k, and Religion is Black and White mostly ( Heaven and Hell ). And you are Necron, what do you know about religion.

40k is Black and Grey, some factions are pure evil. The Dark Eldar, for example. The Necrons are also completely unsympathetic, and the C'tan are the most vile beings in the galaxy. Though there is no pure "good" faction I can recall.

Well gee, why don't you ask my gods what the Necrons who worshipped physical gods that we sold our souls to what we know about religion?

It just occurred to me though. Instead of talking to you, I could be watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, a much more enjoyable activity.