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Void__Dragon wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes you are a traitor, as well as all those people ( alien fanatics who only implements that Imeprium should die ). And you stop trolling me with s***** questions.

umad? Молим? Шта си тиме хтео да кажеш?

Also, the word you are looking for is "implies." Вау, хлава ти

yumadtho? Ало, мртви зомби робот - престани да причаш бесмислице

Brother Coa wrote:What is it? Can't respond brain-dead flesh tearing robot zombie

Stop being so super serious gai. And you stop being brain-dead...

Brother Coa wrote:Then 40k - as well as entire universe is grey. There is no Good and Evil - just mix of that 2 in everything. Somewhere more and somewhere less.
I will not start the religion part since that also take a large portion in 40k, and Religion is Black and White mostly ( Heaven and Hell ). And you are Necron, what do you know about religion.

40k is Black and Grey, some factions are pure evil. The Dark Eldar, for example. The Necrons are also completely unsympathetic, and the C'tan are the most vile beings in the galaxy. Though there is no pure "good" faction I can recall.

Well gee, why don't you ask my gods what the Necrons who worshipped physical gods that we sold our souls to what we know about religion?

It just occurred to me though. Instead of talking to you, I could be watching My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, a much more enjoyable activity.

I worked today and earned 10 dollars instead of arguing with brain-dead zombie robot. Now that's the more enjoyable activity...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is for Void_Dragon only:

I accept your concession.

At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.

Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.

But in becoming a Daemon Prince, all but the very strongest lose themselves in the process, do they not?

Well, you'll probably "lose yourself" long before your elevation, but that's why I said infinitely minuscule. Even if your odds are 0.00000000001%, that's still better than your odds under the Imperium.

Omegus wrote:Well, you'll probably "lose yourself" long before your elevation, but that's why I said infinitely minuscule. Even if your odds are 0.00000000001%, that's still better than your odds under the Imperium.

I don't know, if you are fortunate enough to be born in a place like Ultramar life isn't so bad, and your odds of being born there are probably greater than actually becoming a Daemon Prince, rather than a Chaos Spawn. Or just dying.

Void__Dragon wrote:I accept your concession.

I didn't finish...I just saw how silly this was becoming

Imperium and Chaos are both evil, but in different ways. The first is the dystopian militaristic state which justifies its actions by care about people and Emperor's love, and the last is the thing which promises personal freedom but this freedom somehow depends very much from the will of the Dark Gods.
The humanity must find the third way. Maybe this will be an ideology like Tau Greater Good or Eldar Path (but without joining these Xenos).
I think mercenaries and pirates are the most sane humans in the 40k universe.

While the imperium quite rightly dislikes aliens, their first reaction doesn't always lead to a genocidal campaign. Diplomatic nigotiations are opened by the ordo xenos or IDC and a settlement made if one is available. Alliances and treaties with alien races are forged routinely but really are temporary and more a matter of convenience than good will.

Farseer Petriel wrote:Imperium and Chaos are both evil, but in different ways. The first is the dystopian militaristic state which justifies its actions by care about people and Emperor's love, and the last is the thing which promises personal freedom but this freedom somehow depends very much from the will of the Dark Gods.
The humanity must find the third way. Maybe this will be an ideology like Tau Greater Good or Eldar Path (but without joining these Xenos).
I think mercenaries and pirates are the most sane humans in the 40k universe.

The Tau's philosophy is a lie controlled by the ethereals, it doesn't even make sense to a Tau when there is no ethereal around to remind him. The Tau aren't rosy either apart from Nimbosa the Tau systematically butchered the population of the main capital on Gravalax when they lost control of the situation.

The Imperium is no saint, however they don't routinely murder Imperial citizens unless under dire circumstances. Karamazov certainly isn't celebrated, he is hated by the ecclesiarchy and the thorian faction as well as criticised by members of his order, denouncing him proclaiming he has sent thousands of innocents to their deaths. In fact he famously came to blows with the ecclesiarchy and the inquisition on Salem Proctor, he was in deep doodoo until a chaos cult was uncovered on that planet. There is such a thing as being too zealous.

The Imperium is a product of humanities history, the Imperium understand the threat of the orks, tyranids, chaos and the necrons. Humanity learnt from the betrayal by their alien allies during the Age of Strife.

I will finish and say that the Imperium is far from falling and humanity certainly isn't on the brink of extinction. It is in a state of fluctuation, nothing more.

If I had to rank the races from 1 to 10 with 10 being saintly and 1 being the devils best friend I'd rate it like this:

Chaos = 1 - For obvious reasions.
Imperium = 4 maybe a 5 if you feel generous - Capable of good and looks out for humanities future but will resort to extreme measures.
Eldar = 4 again maybe a 5 - While not evil they will butcher millions of innocents to guarantee the survival of a few of their kind.
Dark Eldar = 2 - Product and most likely a victim of the fall, freely butchers anyone in their way for fun.
Tau = 6 - good traits born out of ignorance, capable of atrocities and have a mean streak.
Orks = 5 - Neutral because they fight for the thrill and not for any other overall objective, product of their creation.
Necrons = 2 - The C-tan are evil however the Necrontyr are a product of betrayal.
Tyranids = 1 - Obvious reasons.

Oh wow, another thread of impassioned defence of the Imperium by Brother Coa!

Orks and Tyranids definitely have the edge in terms of ethical right, neither exhibit any real capacity for malice, being bioengineered weapons and all. They kill gak because that's what they do. It's somewhat unfair to rate DE as dramatically worse than CE ethically, either, since their behaviour isn't exactly the sort of thing they can break away from anymore. Necrons (not including the C'Tan, who are pretty fething terrible) aren't particularly unethical either, being mindless robots (but of course that's set to change.). Tau are donkey-caves of a similar order to the Imperium.

sirrah wrote:Oh wow, another thread of impassioned defence of the Imperium by Brother Coa!

Orks and Tyranids definitely have the edge in terms of ethical right, neither exhibit any real capacity for malice, being bioengineered weapons and all. They kill gak because that's what they do. It's somewhat unfair to rate DE as dramatically worse than CE ethically, either, since their behaviour isn't exactly the sort of thing they can break away from anymore. Necrons (not including the C'Tan, who are pretty fething terrible) aren't particularly unethical either, being mindless robots (but of course that's set to change.). Tau are donkey-caves of a similar order to the Imperium.

Fair enough and some fair points, I'm not completely up to date with DE fluff but I think they "hunt" for souls because they need them to survive, I might be wrong but I'll move them up out of sympathy if true. Being bioengineered doesn't make the nids ethical since their over riding objective is to consume but they don't have a choice in the matter so I'll move them a point up. Crons can stay since necron lords have some form of self-awareness.

Um... it doesn't matter if Orks are bioengineered weapons or not. They allow for no other life, and seek to kill it all in battle. A human's life on an ork-held world is probably measured in hours.

Yeah, DE eat souls.

Chaos is only cool if you have Plot Armor. Otherwise, you're just a Blood Pact foot-slogger or some similar flunky. You're a red-shirt. Cannon fodder. You don't have the option to be something better than you were, the deck was always stacked against you, and you never had the slightest chance to win. Chaos is not that egalitarian.

Psienesis wrote:Um... it doesn't matter if Orks are bioengineered weapons or not. They allow for no other life, and seek to kill it all in battle. A human's life on an ork-held world is probably measured in hours.

But not doing so is anathema to the Ork, fighting is their sole drive because it is what they were made to do. They don't war out of hate or anger, and they hold no grudge over the loss of their own life in battle, because it is the only activity that fulfills them.

Neither is good. Or bad.

Nothing is black and White

Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.

Hahahaha no, in the Imperium you have MUCH higher odds of becoming a nobleman, IG commander, manufactorum overseer, or some other decent career. You also have a WAY LOWER chance of turning into a mewling suffering chaos spawn.

In he grim dark future there is only grey and greyer morality.

Sometimes there is also blue and orange.

Just gonna quickly add that I prefer the Imperium because it's people actually have hopes and aspirations for a peaceful life and sort of (my personal opinion) bear resemblance to our society in probably not agreeing with whatever bad stuff happens behind their backs, but being occupied with other worries (such as chaos or huge all consuming bugs...yeah I know we have less worries). Chaos on the other hand just seems to openly exploit every body, kill what ever they want and have no hopes of ever achieving anything except killing the emperor and then... serving the dark gods some more... and then profit?

Imperium - from bad to average good.
Chaos - from really bad to ultra bad.

Here's how I see it (5 is average happiness in our modern world). Also, since I don't believe it can be accurately displayed in 1 numbah, I'm using a short range of 3 numbahs. I picked two other races in addition to the Imperium and Chaos so there would be more perspective.

Satisfaction of Average Imperial Citizen: 2-4
Explanation: First of all, terrible living conditions; the average Imperial planet is polluted or is going to end up polluted due to the Imperium's disregard for sanity and safety. Secondly, their leaders are power hungry religious zealots who are prone to executing people for thinking (AKA heresy).

Satisfaction of Average Tau Citizen: 4-6
Explanation: First of all, Tau have better living conditions. They make up for this with terrible jobs and an even more totalitarian government than the Imperium. Luckily for the Tau they are somewhat brainwashed, so they aren't too sad about their situation.

Satisfaction of Average Tyranid: N/A
Explanation: Tyranids think about how to find/catch food and eat it. They don't think like humans do and their happiness can't be rated.

Satisfaction of Average Eye of Terror/Maelstrom Inhabitant: 2-4
Explanation: You need to be extremely smart of extremely strong (usually both) to rule over an area in a warpstorm. The average citizen is not that, and as a result is abused and enslaved and sometimes horrifically mutated. It is possible to have a good life, but the average person here definitely won't have one. The only advantage is the freedom to say and think what you want.

Chaos is far worse. They may well be a form of space nazi's, but many of the imperiums soldiers, especially SM chapters, actually are noble. Selfless, decent, who sacrfice their lives to assist others (imperial citizens they deem worthy of saving)

Chaos is all about malice and self serving.

LoneLictor wrote:Here's how I see it (5 is average happiness in our modern world). Also, since I don't believe it can be accurately displayed in 1 numbah, I'm using a short range of 3 numbahs. I picked two other races in addition to the Imperium and Chaos so there would be more perspective.

Satisfaction of Average Imperial Citizen: 2-4
Explanation: First of all, terrible living conditions; the average Imperial planet is polluted or is going to end up polluted due to the Imperium's disregard for sanity and safety. Secondly, their leaders are power hungry religious zealots who are prone to executing people for thinking (AKA heresy).

Ultramarines have something to add to this...not every planet in the Imperium is Necromunda, Krieg or Catachan you know. There are planets were life is good, I think Macragge, Terra and Ophelia VII count as planets for good life. And every planet in the Imperium is probably having decent life for it;s citizens without leaders going to much in harassing them.

Satisfaction of Average Tau Citizen: 4-6
Explanation: First of all, Tau have better living conditions. They make up for this with terrible jobs and an even more totalitarian government than the Imperium. Luckily for the Tau they are somewhat brainwashed, so they aren't too sad about their situation.

Tau citizen can't say whatever he want, just what his Etherial say to him. You can't even chosse what wil lyou be in life - they chosee that foe you, you can't even breed with other castes. And they are brainwashed so....

Satisfaction of Average Tyranid: N/A
Explanation: Tyranids think about how to find/catch food and eat it. They don't think like humans do and their happiness can't be rated.

They are like ant's - they live only to serve Hive Mind and nothing else.

Satisfaction of Average Eye of Terror/Maelstrom Inhabitant: 2-4
Explanation: You need to be extremely smart of extremely strong (usually both) to rule over an area in a warpstorm. The average citizen is not that, and as a result is abused and enslaved and sometimes horrifically mutated. It is possible to have a good life, but the average person here definitely won't have one. The only advantage is the freedom to say and think what you want.

Well when you became mutant it isn't to hard to live there. And with your soul sold to Chaos Gods you can say whatever you want because it won't matter - you are their possession forever.

I think that only Eldar live decent life on their Craftworlds in Warhammer 40k....

Manthanator68 wrote:Which is really better, a jerk Imperium who murders planets of entire populations cause they have too many fricken people, or a Chaos who are just deoted followers of their gods?

HERESY! Obviously you are a pawn of the dark powers. Tie him to a stake and burn him at once!

Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.

Have you read Fulgrim?!

McNeil makes is sound like getting raped by demons is waaay better than going DP.

Or even, getting DP'd by demons, is worse than going DP.

PLus, do you get knommed by the Chaos Gods? I thought that was only the eldar, and that humans go.. well.. someplace else. And the emperor looks after the souls of those that believe in him. That hasn't been disproved has it?

mattyrm wrote:

Omegus wrote:At least with Chaos you have the chance, however infinitely minuscule, to become something greater than yourself (a daemon prince). About the best a servant of the Imperium can hope for is death in service of the Emperor. And you still end up eaten by Chaos.

Have you read Fulgrim?!

McNeil makes is sound like getting raped by demons is waaay better than going DP.

Or even, getting DP'd by demons, is worse than going DP.

PLus, do you get knommed by the Chaos Gods? I thought that was only the eldar, and that humans go.. well.. someplace else. And the emperor looks after the souls of those that believe in him. That hasn't been disproved has it?

Well, it has never been proven that the corpsegod looks for anyone's soul. Still, who cares what happens after death? Most human souls in 40k are weak and do not hold any kind of self awareness after death.

KingDeath wrote:

Well, it has never been proven that the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind looks for anyone's soul. Still, who cares what happens after death? Most human souls in 40k are weak and do not hold any kind of self awareness after death.

Do not spread Heresy....
And what about the fact they give him 1000 souls every day?

LoneLictor wrote:Here's how I see it (5 is average happiness in our modern world). Also, since I don't believe it can be accurately displayed in 1 numbah, I'm using a short range of 3 numbahs. I picked two other races in addition to the Imperium and Chaos so there would be more perspective.

Satisfaction of Average Imperial Citizen: 2-4
Explanation: First of all, terrible living conditions; the average Imperial planet is polluted or is going to end up polluted due to the Imperium's disregard for sanity and safety. Secondly, their leaders are power hungry religious zealots who are prone to executing people for thinking (AKA heresy).

Satisfaction of Average Tau Citizen: 4-6
Explanation: First of all, Tau have better living conditions. They make up for this with terrible jobs and an even more totalitarian government than the Imperium. Luckily for the Tau they are somewhat brainwashed, so they aren't too sad about their situation.

Satisfaction of Average Tyranid: N/A
Explanation: Tyranids think about how to find/catch food and eat it. They don't think like humans do and their happiness can't be rated.

Satisfaction of Average Eye of Terror/Maelstrom Inhabitant: 2-4
Explanation: You need to be extremely smart of extremely strong (usually both) to rule over an area in a warpstorm. The average citizen is not that, and as a result is abused and enslaved and sometimes horrifically mutated. It is possible to have a good life, but the average person here definitely won't have one. The only advantage is the freedom to say and think what you want.

adding to that, satisfaction of average Ork: 10.

Arturius wrote:Yeah. The Imperium would gladly torture and murder a billion people to save ten billion. Corrupt as it is, it's likely that a billion people would be tortured and murdered to make a rich noble even richer. And yes, they think that a billion mutants and xenos should be tortured and murdered for being mutants and xenos. The Imperium are not nice people.

Individuals are to the Imperium as a dollar bill is to the government...just another resource to spend wastefully on some project or another. Millions die a day, millions more are born.

But not doing so is anathema to the Ork, fighting is their sole drive because it is what they were made to do. They don't war out of hate or anger, and they hold no grudge over the loss of their own life in battle, because it is the only activity that fulfills them.

That does not make them better, that only makes them simple. I am not sure one can say that the Ork does not wage war out of anger, since they seem to be unbridled aggression embodied. Hate is too complex an emotion for the Orkoid mind.

The Necron are the good guys. Look at it, they aren't out to consume the life essence of everything (as clearly stated in the fluff, repeatedly) they just want to cleanse the galaxy of all life, so they can repopulate it with ponies and rainbows.

But more seriously, people who are defending the Imperium are kinda right. The basic underlining desire to benefit the Empire as a whole, and thus the Human Race, make them better than Chaos. The Chaos literally just want to make everyone miserable. HOWEVER, Chaos is just another aspect of humanity, so is there really 2 sides?

The Nids, however, can be described as neither good nor evil, just hungry.

The Tau and Eldar both have their bad parts, but are driven by a better force than the Imperium.

Everyone else is evil, with the exception of Orks, who aren't people, they are plants.

Config2 wrote:The Necron are the good guys. Look at it, they aren't out to consume the life essence of everything

I get that you are joking, about them being the good guys, but I'm not sure you are about this.

"Consuming the life essence of everything" is the exact goal of the C'tan and their Necron servants. Mostly the C'tan. The Necrons just like the killing and misery it brings to the living.