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Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a Tigershark was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.

As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.

They'd utilize Mantas or Tiger Sharks, probably with Markerlights painting the target for Seeker Missile strikes as well.

According to the IA fluff... Its important to remember that the Tau continually underestimate what the Imperium can bring to the battlefield. Before the Taros campaign the Tau didn't belive in Titans... As far as I know the tau havn't come into contact with anything larger then Warhound. But I would guess that they would deal with anything short of an Imperator the same way everyone else does... Weight of Fire.

Wether they could deal with a Legion plus all of the armed Servitors and Skitari that go with it is another question.

They would probably use the Custodian, you know, the ship capable of holding SQUADRONS of Mantas.

Well, the Tau seem to do very well at range so I imagine they would use this tactic, or swarm the titan with suits perhaps. The best way to handle titans in my uneducated opinion is blast them with air power or from orbit... assuming the Tau have air superiority.

A full titan legion would require a lot of resources for the Tau to defeat as they would most likely be accompanied by substantial forces from the IG if not the Astartes. Something like that might just be a make or break situation for the Tau.

All of this outside of the game rules... the universe is quite different in the book fluff.

Fireknife wrote:They would probably use the Custodian, you know, the ship capable of holding SQUADRONS of Mantas.

You mean the ship that can't enter atmosphere?

Like Uhlan said: the assumption is that the Tau will have air superiority. That is going to depend on the world in question, and if the Tau are actually invading rather than taking a world that they've already infiltrated and converted to their cause.

That's what caused the most problems on Taros--the PDF by and large went over to the Tau, and they controlled the anti-ship and anti-air emplacements. The Raptors had to spike those defenses to ensure that they couldn't be retaken by the traitor PDF or Fire Caste and used against the Imperial forces as they landed. Which also meant that they couldn't be used to bring down the Tau aircraft that showed up later in the campaign.

With Railguns on tanks, railguns on battlesuits, railguns on aircraft. With fusionblasters on tanks, fusionblasters on battlesuits...erm, do you get the picture? They deal with battletitans the same way everyone else does when there are no superheavies or titans avaiable.

Harriticus wrote:Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a manta was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.

As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.

If I might add a couple of items.

The Warhound was taken out by a single Tigershark converted to carry two railguns, the A10 version, IIRC. (original, ForgeWorld, original ) The Manta never went near it. Which brings me to the second point, according to the book the attack was planned using seekers to overload the void shield and the railguns 'cored' it. It did not seem to be an act of deperation as I have inferred from your post.

Since the Tau never seem to get rid of something, unless it's to improve it, why shouldn't they just stick to a tried and trusted method?

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a manta was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.

As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.

If I might add a couple of items.

The Warhound was taken out by a single Tigershark converted to carry two railguns, the A10 version, IIRC. (original, ForgeWorld, original ) The Manta never went near it. Which brings me to the second point, according to the book the attack was planned using seekers to overload the void shield and the railguns 'cored' it. It did not seem to be an act of deperation as I have inferred from your post.

Since the Tau never seem to get rid of something, unless it's to improve it, why shouldn't they just stick to a tried and trusted method?

Cheers

Andrew

Well, imho the "tried and true" method you speak of is more akin to a rebel proton torpedo attack than a sure-fire way to take out a titan. Probably not the best allusion, but I think you get my point. Literary license to commit fluff atrocities abounds in the books.

Still, the event did occur, but drawing conclusions is still speculative. I think my statement still holds water though.

Like what everyone has said--air power and mass of fire. They took out an unsupported scout titan, but that probably wouldn't be particularly reliable.

The Custodian could only be useful in the sense any capital ship is useful in a ground engagement.

Hi Uhlan,

No, your allusion works.

However, when I said tried and trusted, they tried it then, and it was the first time then, and it worked.

So tried and trusted. Whether it works again is a different question, but I do think that the Tau would use it as a baseline for all other attempts.

Cheers

Andrew

Because it was an improvisation to counter a threat they had nothing against and which they had never encountered. They caught the Imperium by surprise, taking out only one of their lowest Titan class. It's not going to work against a Reaver, or Warlord, or the Imperator. Their weapons are stronger, their defenses are stronger, their support is much better, their pilots have more experience, and despite what may be believed by many, the Imperium DOES learn, and adapts accordingly.

Since this is hypothetical. I would assume that a Tau force that ran into a Titan legion would be in some serious trouble after getting trounced heavily they would take a step back and do one of two things:
1) Determine if any existing tech could be modified to take on the threat (see IA:3). Maybe a modified Manta with more railguns and less cargo area and heavier shields/armor.
2) Create new tech to address it. Probably a new heavy ship like the Manta with some new weapons technology.

To me, one of the larger aspects of the 40k universe is that all of the factions are fairly well balanced. Sure, the IoM could invade and wipe out the Tau Empire fairly easily; however, they are unable to for various reasons and the Tau represent a comparatively minor threat. The Orks and Tyranids have the numbers to swamp any faction under but the Orks are just as happy to fight themselves and the Tyranids tend to swarm instead of actually utilizing winning tactics. The Eldar have the tech to beat any one faction but lack the numbers. etc. etc.

Tyranids and Tau are both billed as the most adaptable factions in the 40k universe so I imagine they would think of something after getting beat down a few times.

They would probably send in stealth teams to get inside the Voids,then fly up the legs insides,and fusion blaster the structure,all the while blasting the same point on the voids with Railheads,Broadsides and Mantas.


Against Emperors they have no chance.Whole Squadrons of warlords struggle to bring one down.They manage to do it,though not easily and unscathed.


If it was a full legion they might as well just blow themselves up.

For now Tau can't do a squat to bigger Titans then Warhound ( Warhound don't even have Void Shields ).

They would use mantas and Tiger Sharks ( the fact that they used space ship to bring down 1 scout Titan tells us something ), but they would need a lot more of them to bring down 1 Reaver Titan. But if Tau would advance into Imperial space in sort of some bigger force their main problem wouldn't be Titans - bur Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

For example take Taros numbers, increase them by 10x, add some well trained and good equipped Guard Regiment ( Krieg or Cadians with Vanquishers and Baneblades ) and 2 or 3 Space Marine chapters with full force ( 5 to 6 companies each with vehicles ) and any Tau force wouldn't stand a chance ( in fact forget that, Black Templars recapture Nimbosa system relatively easy with not more than 1000 marines ).

From Tau point of view, they still don't know the true size of the Imperium and consider Human a minor race that can be conquered easily. We are still waiting to see what will be with Tau if they face full invasion from some other race ( Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos... ) and what will happened with Commander Farsight who tell Ethereals to f*** themselves and created his own little empire on a border with the Imperium.

Tau fans - your turn to troll.......

The funny thing about the Tau is that even though they have a codex they are a comparitively small "Empire". I think the toilet cleaners union in the IoM has more members. The Tau only exist because the IoM bureacracy is busy collecting back taxes on plant bumpkin which is 8 millenia in arrears.

Had the Imperial juggernaut focused on the Tau as a real threat with a Legion of titans and the corresponding escort I don't think anything could stop them.

That said, strap an air caste technician with explosives and drop him out of a manta orky style on top of the titan and... "Go for the Eyes!"

Uhlan wrote:The funny thing about the Tau is that even though they have a codex they are a comparitively small "Empire". I think the toilet cleaners union in the IoM has more members. The Tau only exist because the IoM bureacracy is busy collecting back taxes on plant bumpkin which is 8 millenia in arrears.

Had the Imperial juggernaut focused on the Tau as a real threat with a Legion of titans and the corresponding escort I don't think anything could stop them.

Tau Empire is a threat to the Imperium of Mankind as Montenegro is a threat to the United States of America.

And the off topic Tau haters arrive.


Exit, stage right...

agnosto wrote:And the off topic Tau haters arrive.


Exit, stage right...

Everything I said is on topic...

Deal with it...

Brother Coa wrote:Tau Empire is a threat to the Imperium of Mankind as Montenegro is a threat to the United States of America.

Why did I think of the film 'The Mouse that Roared' when I read this.

How badly the Tau woiuld lose isn't in question, but how they would attack/defend against a larger Titan.

The War Hound doesn't have void shields? What does it have, I could have sworn that they mentioned them.

Cheers

Andrew

Brother Coa wrote:For now Tau can't do a squat to bigger Titans then Warhound ( Warhound don't even have Void Shields ).

Warhounds DO have Void shields.

Brother Coa wrote:

Uhlan wrote:The funny thing about the Tau is that even though they have a codex they are a comparitively small "Empire". I think the toilet cleaners union in the IoM has more members. The Tau only exist because the IoM bureacracy is busy collecting back taxes on plant bumpkin which is 8 millenia in arrears.

Had the Imperial juggernaut focused on the Tau as a real threat with a Legion of titans and the corresponding escort I don't think anything could stop them.

Tau Empire is a threat to the Imperium of Mankind as Montenegro is a threat to the United States of America.

Ahhh, don't sell the Montenegrans short. It only took one Bosnian Serb to start WWI and bring down the Austro-Hungarian Empire! imagine what a montenegran could do... the mind boggles.

The main point to take away from the Taros incident isn't the size of the Titans and guns and all that stuff. It's that The Tau got whooped by Titans in the Damocles Gulf crusade and thought "OMG, we better invent something to deal with that". Then they did, then they killed a fething Titan. And they did it all in a shorter time that it takes for the Admistratum to file the paper on what happened. That's very bad for the Imperium.

Tau Empire has no chance. It would take roughly 3 Whole Marine chapters to take down the Tau Empire. Now that is saying something. In general it seems that the Tau Empire's only reason for existence is that they are almost non-existent.

First, tau haters, Gak off. The tau are in need of love, and stopp braking our frail self-confidence.

Second, the Imperium doesent gain anything in the long term on obliderating the Tau Empire. The other xenos the Tau hold off will bring more war on the Imperium then the Tau. Like the Orks and nids. The Tau are a (realatively) peace seaking nation and deafeating the Tau would only cause more problems then it would solve. Yes, a Titan legion would almost destroy the Tau empire. I admit to nothing else. But moving it from more needing fronts would cause huge amounts of recources, the loss off Imperial territory, and wouldent realy fix anything

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The main point to take away from the Taros incident isn't the size of the Titans and guns and all that stuff. It's that The Tau got whooped by Titans in the Damocles Gulf crusade and thought "OMG, we better invent something to deal with that". Then they did, then they killed a fething Titan. And they did it all in a shorter time that it takes for the Admistratum to file the paper on what happened. That's very bad for the Imperium.

I realize this is slightly off topic, but the topic is interesting. Still, they got the Titan as you say.

Other than the obvious 'anime' look to the Tau their existence is to present a vital, expanding empire counterpoint to that of a degenerate, bloated one plodding along by sheer inertia. Honestly, the loss of one warhound though tragic doesn't spell the end of the IoM.

If the IoM turned their lazy eye completely to the Tau I don't think they'd stop with deploying it's vast resources. I don't believe the Tau have any real idea how massive the resources are in the IoM. Not just one titan, but how about a reaver, a Warlord or a Titan Legion as has been mentioned. Now the tau have to stop 2, 3, 5, 10 deathstars with a Proton torpedo while keeping air superiority all the while.

I play the Tau, I love the little blue buggers, but I don't think they can advance fast enough to technologically outwit the IoM once it's bloated carcass starts moving.

As an aside, and I apologize, I think the Tau's greatest threat to the IoM is their 'ethics' and system of government. Militarily they don't stand a chance... as of now anyway.

Manta with a single giant Rail gun :3

Anyway, the biggest problem for the Tua vs a Titan Legion isn't really the Titan's.

It's that a full Titan Legion is always accompanied by it's own large Mechanicum space fleet. They never leave Titan Carriers unprotected, and they wouldn't completely bugger them out of the system when the Titans are still around.

So the point I'm making I guess is, if theres a Titan Legion around, theres a big fleet around, and if they have a big enough fleet around to still gain air superiority then the IoM forces didn't have a chance to begin with.

As for individual titan's. With current weapons tech, weight of fire is pretty much all they can do.

Or copy the Astral Claws action on the World Engine in a tiny scale.

Crash a Manta into it.

Harriticus wrote:Straightforward question from a fluff (not gameplay) perspective. We know in the Taros Campaign, a manta was able to take down a Warhound by basically firing everything it had at once. However, there's a big difference between a Warhound and a Reaver. And then there's an even bigger difference between a Reaver and a Warlord. And there's a huge difference between a Warlord and a Imperator.

As the Tau continue to expand in Imperial Space, I do imagine they'll encounter a full-fledged Titan Legion one day so this question becomes relevant. I understand that Imperators are so rare it's unlikely the Imperium would deploy them against the Tau, but Warlords are another matter.

It wasn't a Manta, it was a Tigershark. A single Manta should be able to handle a Reaver or Warlord just as easily. A couple Mantas should be able to handle an Imperator pretty handily as well. My guess, given the role that the Manta's serve in the Tau Empire, is that the Tau probably have access to more Manta's than the Imperium does Imperator Titans. Granted the Imperium is easily several hundred (thousand is more likely) times larger than the Tau Empire, but Imperators are described as ultra rare, etc.so who knows.

According to the IA fluff... Its important to remember that the Tau continually underestimate what the Imperium can bring to the battlefield. Before the Taros campaign the Tau didn't belive in Titans... As far as I know the tau havn't come into contact with anything larger then Warhound. But I would guess that they would deal with anything short of an Imperator the same way everyone else does... Weight of Fire.

Wether they could deal with a Legion plus all of the armed Servitors and Skitari that go with it is another question.

You mean ignoring the Titans that the Damocles Gulf Crusade deployed on Dal'yth? Taros was hardly the first time that they encountered a Titan, thats why the Tigershark was developed in the first place. The book Savage Scars mentions that seeker missiles proved to be the bane of the warhound titans and a couple were lost to them until the Marines figured out how to spot the ambushes, etc. Also worth noting is that, IIRC, the heavy railguns carried on the Tigershark and Manta are supposed to be based on the railguns carried by Tau warships. If they can do damage to an Imperial cruiser, they sure as hell can do damage to a Titan.

You mean the ship that can't enter atmosphere?

Where does it say that? Besides the fact that it doesn't need to enter the atmosphere, the fluff is full of instances where Imperial Cruisers entered a planets atmosphere, I see no reason why the Tau analogues couldn't do the same.

This thread is so full of ignorance of the fluff it makes me want to vomit. Warhounds don't have void shields? O rly? Tiger Sharks and Mantas are spacecraft (the Manta part is forgivable)?etc. etc. etc.

Uhlan wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The main point to take away from the Taros incident isn't the size of the Titans and guns and all that stuff. It's that The Tau got whooped by Titans in the Damocles Gulf crusade and thought "OMG, we better invent something to deal with that". Then they did, then they killed a fething Titan. And they did it all in a shorter time that it takes for the Admistratum to file the paper on what happened. That's very bad for the Imperium.

I realize this is slightly off topic, but the topic is interesting. Still, they got the Titan as you say.

Other than the obvious 'anime' look to the Tau their existence is to present a vital, expanding empire counterpoint to that of a degenerate, bloated one plodding along by sheer inertia. Honestly, the loss of one warhound though tragic doesn't spell the end of the IoM.

If the IoM turned their lazy eye completely to the Tau I don't think they'd stop with deploying it's vast resources. I don't believe the Tau have any real idea how massive the resources are in the IoM. Not just one titan, but how about a reaver, a Warlord or a Titan Legion as has been mentioned. Now the tau have to stop 2, 3, 5, 10 deathstars with a Proton torpedo while keeping air superiority all the while.

I play the Tau, I love the little blue buggers, but I don't think they can advance fast enough to technologically outwit the IoM once it's bloated carcass starts moving.

As an aside, and I apologize, I think the Tau's greatest threat to the IoM is their 'ethics' and system of government. Militarily they don't stand a chance... as of now anyway.

Yes, the water caste has annexed far more Imperial worlds than the fire caste.

I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.