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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.

That's wishfull thinking at best. The only world Tau took is backwather worlds with no millitary at all and with not more than 15.000.000 citizens.
Like taking a minor Pacific island from USSR.

Wait what?

You do realize the Tau invasion got so bad Calgar had to ask for a dozen Space Marine Chapters to hold back the Tau expansions. They then pushed forward with every ounce of muscle they had and then only managed to push the Tau back into captured Imperial territory before leaving. When the Chapter Master of the Ultra Marines has to personally step in and ask for assistance you aren't a "minor" threat to the Imperium.

Also, the "backwater" world of Taros was a planet destined to be a resource planet for a forge world, a massive loss to the IoM.

Tau forces might not be knocking on Earth's doorstep, but they are a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Fringe.

Taros is not a "massive loss" for the Imperium. If they cared about it they would have sent more than a dozen regiments. There was a war because an acountant noticed a clerical disparity. It's a backwater.

To an Empire that cannot muster its full weight anymore, the forces sent were rather significant. In comparison to any other front, they were on par with other major battles across the IoM. The losses suffered were also significant, as even a single Titan falling usually ends up with someone being blindfolded and shot for stupidity.

What are you talking about? When the Imperium sends a small force its like 100 regiments. The Damocles Gulf Crusade is an example of when the Imperium gives a damn. That was a minor crusade and it almost wiped out the Tau.

100 Regiments isn't small at all.

Once again, its typical GW fluff making a mockery of realistic numbers. They are trapped into such stupid situations because everything needs to just be bigger and better in the beginning and now 14 years later, it shows just how silly it really is.

It probably took a decent amount of resources for the Tau to knock down the Titan. Just because of the nature of what a Titan is. But there is no indication that it would be insurmountable or even resource draining for the Tau to take down one of the stupidly bigger ones.

Railguns work and from a long range away. You just need to bring a number of them equal to the size of what your shooting.

What would be cool is if the Tau came up with some sort of technology that shut down the void shields for a time. Kinda like giving the aliens in ID4 that temporary virus. Imagine the shock. It would be awesome. IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.

Retribution wrote:
The Guard units involved on Taros were all well-trained and veteran, see: Elysians, Cadians, Tallarn. And a thousand strong marine force is stupidly strong from an in-universe perspective, almost as strong as plot armor

Tallarn who are Hit and Run not direct assault troops.
Elysisans who are paratroopers and not defensive troops.
1 Cadian and 1 Krieg Regiment.

Most of the attack force was Tallarns. They are good for raids but not for trench warfare or for massive battles. Adn they used Elysians t odefend a rafinery ( Arnhem anyone? )
2 Regiments who were actually for this kind of warfare are not enough for this.
And I will not even start about Space Marines minimum involment. They have Terminators for Emperor's sake.
And Tau had help from planet population ( 12.000.000 people ) + their guns + local gangs. Not to mention that Imperial navy forget to protect supply ships from raids.
3 year old child would better organised Imperial forces there, even Abbadon would succeed conquering Taros.

Whoa, Whoa. Tallarns were the absolute best troops to use in that war. It was one of the only things the IoM did right in that battle. If they were any other regiment they all would have died after 3 days. Give those guys some credit.

Brother Coa wrote:

Retribution wrote:
The Guard units involved on Taros were all well-trained and veteran, see: Elysians, Cadians, Tallarn. And a thousand strong marine force is stupidly strong from an in-universe perspective, almost as strong as plot armor

Tallarn who are Hit and Run not direct assault troops.
Elysisans who are paratroopers and not defensive troops.
1 Cadian and 1 Krieg Regiment.

Most of the attack force was Tallarns. They are good for raids but not for trench warfare or for massive battles. Adn they used Elysians t odefend a rafinery ( Arnhem anyone? )
2 Regiments who were actually for this kind of warfare are not enough for this.
And I will not even start about Space Marines minimum involment. They have Terminators for Emperor's sake.
And Tau had help from planet population ( 12.000.000 people ) + their guns + local gangs. Not to mention that Imperial navy forget to protect supply ships from raids.
3 year old child would better organised Imperial forces there, even Abbadon would succeed conquering Taros.

Tallarns and Elysians are not a good choice for shock attack desert warfare?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Whoa, Whoa. Tallarns were the absolute best troops to use in that war. It was one of the only things the IoM did right in that battle. If they were any other regiment they all would have died after 3 days. Give those guys some credit.

I did, I said that they are excellent for raids and desert combat ( much of Taros is desert after all ).
But when it comes to city fight....not so much. And they are definitively not for trenches...

Like I said:

Elysisans are best for storm action - on Taros they were in trenches defending refinery ( as I said: Arnhem anyone? ).
Tallarn are best for hit and run tactics and fast attacks. And they use them in city fight.
It; like using Whiteshields to fight Daemons of Chaos - they are not trained for that kind of situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.

This point is irrelevant...

If they win everything how is that they are losing war for survival?

Kanluwen wrote:We don't actually know that the Tiger Shark took the Warhound out in a single pass. Just that a Tiger Shark made a pass--and as I've said before, the Tau had to pull air support from other areas to protect the Tiger Shark. I also hate to say this again though, but Andy Hoare is to the Tau what Graham McNeill is to the Ultramarines.

And "a couple of Skyrays firing Seeker Missiles" is 16-24 missiles dependent on if it's 2 or 3 Skyrays. That's nothing to sneeze at.

They didn't all fire. IIRC, the total count was about 10 missiles to bring down the void shields and blow up the titan.

And those missiles are not strong to penetrate Void shields ( even those weak as Warhound ones ) am I right?

Wrong. Both on tabletop and in universe they are more than good enough to handle the situation. As for the rest of your post, the tigershark came in low and fast, fired its own seeker missile to drop the void shield and then a single shot from its railguns destroyed the titan. Interestingly enough, the next paragraph states that Imperial commanders thought that only Tau Manta were capable of posing a threat to Titans, and that they were proven wrong. The Tigershark carries the same railguns as the Manta. This means that Tigersharks pose a similar level of threat to Imperial titans as Mantas.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

100 Regiments isn't small at all.

Yeah it is, and Damocles Gulf had a lot less than that, only 19 in fact.

Hell, the current US army has more than 100 regiments...

Elysisans are best for storm action - on Taros they were in trenches defending refinery ( as I said: Arnhem anyone? ).
Tallarn are best for hit and run tactics and fast attacks. And they use them in city fight.

Please read the book. Neither of these points are true. Elysians were used as drop troops to storm and seize a hydroprocessing facility. The tau destroyed them.
The Tallarn presented the bulk of the Imperial ground force and were used on an advance against the Tau holdings. They never entered the city of Tarokeen.

Kanluwen wrote:We don't actually know that the Tiger Shark took the Warhound out in a single pass. Just that a Tiger Shark made a pass--and as I've said before, the Tau had to pull air support from other areas to protect the Tiger Shark. I also hate to say this again though, but Andy Hoare is to the Tau what Graham McNeill is to the Ultramarines.

And "a couple of Skyrays firing Seeker Missiles" is 16-24 missiles dependent on if it's 2 or 3 Skyrays. That's nothing to sneeze at.

We do know it was a single pass, as that part was spelled out in the book. I also thought that it was the AX10 on its' own that totaled the WarHound, I can't remember any other items of support. But I could be wrong on that IIRC there was minimal air support for the AX10, because no-one really ruled the skies at that point. Also, again, IIRC the WarHound did have ground support in the form of the SM chapter at Taros. It was a breakout of the stalemate with the 4 titans and SMs to break through the Tau lines.

Cheers

Andrew

Cityfight? Did they even make it into the city?
Problem was IoM forgot to bring.......water. Figured that problem would take care of itself. Fortunately, it turned out Tallarns don't need water to march 20 miles a day and fight. It's an almost superhuman ability they posses. Like I said any other race would have dropped dead in the desert after a few days.

Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)

I can see three ways the tau could fight a big titan.

1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.

2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.

Brother Coa wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.

This point is irrelevant...

If they win everything how is that they are losing war for survival?

When it comes to the Tau, it seems like the IOM fans come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter. Pretty boring if your young upstart gets squashed before the race even begins. Thats my point. Obviously the Tau are doing something right. So yeah, by the very nature that they are going to continue as a presence in the 40K world means they can play on the same level as the big boys.

nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast.

Welcome to the world of Tau threads.

1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.

The Tau do not fight a fight they cannot win, to them it is not cowardice but simple logic. Your other suggestions make more sense.

2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.

This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.

I don't think that is a safe assumption. Look at the railrifle, it went from prototype to field use in a very short time to meet a specific function of marine killer. I dont see any reason for the AX10 not to meet the same advancement.

Cheers

Andrew

chaos0xomega wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

100 Regiments isn't small at all.

Yeah it is, and Damocles Gulf had a lot less than that, only 19 in fact.

Hell, the current US army has more than 100 regiments...

U.S. Army Regiments aren't 40K IG Regiments by a long shot.

Keep in mind that sending 100 Regiments to a front is a massive undertaking. Just think the 13th Black Crusade... Even with unbelievable resources pulled even the IG has its limits. While they can fight a war of attrition they also have to fight their own logistics. Which is why PDFs are such an important mainstay of the Imperium.

Something else I thought of.

4. landmine. All the titans i have seen are two leg. They are big easy to see and track (I assume slow, but you never know.) You could figure out where it is going and plant a huge bomb in it's path. Better yet, lure it into a area with a lot of caves and then drop the ground around it.

Jayden63 wrote:
When it comes to the Tau, it seems like the IOM fans come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter.

Brother Coa's ridiculous raging aside, the reason I "come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter" is because every single time the Tau are involved--they're layered in plot armor so thick it makes Captain Kirk look like Unnamed Brunette Red Shirt #56.
First off, we have the discovery of the Tau. They're savage brutes, on the brink of destroying themselves. The Imperium sends a colonization fleet to excise the race and take their planetary holdings.
This fleet is destroyed by "freak Warp Storms".

Next we have the Damocles Gulf Crusade--the Tau are able to stalemate a force that previously had been steamrolling them up until then. When the Imperium prepares for escalation of the Crusade and extermination--the Tau are suddenly ignored because of the arrival of the largest Hive Fleet yet to threaten the Imperium.

And then we have Taros. A desert world, with very little in the way of potable water. The war goes terribly for the Imperium because it's essentially what we saw happen with the Soviets in Afghanistan. They were ill-prepared, facing an enemy that knew the terrain and was very much prepared to operate in that environment. And let's not forget the Tiger Shark. Out of freaking nowhere, they have this Deus Ex Machina that drops a Warhound Titan with ease and makes the Adeptus Mechanicus "flee"?

Pretty boring if your young upstart gets squashed before the race even begins. That's my point. Obviously the Tau are doing something right. So yeah, by the very nature that they are going to continue as a presence in the 40K world means they can play on the same level as the big boys.

And that's the problem. The Tau aren't a military threat in the Grand Scheme Of Things, and there's this idea by Tau fans that that they are.

Their ideology is the biggest threat that they pose to the Imperium. That doesn't mean that the Tau should be ignored as a threat but it means that in a universe where you have foes like the Tyranids, the Chaos Legions and their ilk, and the Necrons--the Tau are a different kind of threat. The fact that the Tau can be reasoned with, like the Craftworld Eldar, means that they're pretty low on the Imperium's list of "slaughter these guys NOW" though.

AndrewC wrote:We do know it was a single pass, as that part was spelled out in the book. I also thought that it was the AX10 on its' own that totaled the WarHound, I can't remember any other items of support. But I could be wrong on that IIRC there was minimal air support for the AX10, because no-one really ruled the skies at that point.

I'm going to quote it here.

Imperial Armour Volume 3 p.121 wrote:The Warhounds continually stalked forwards, obliterating anything in their path, along with the Space Marines, now advancing about their feet, the combined force thrust a sword clean through the Tau defences and opened the way onto the Iracunda Isthmus. The Tau rallied, and the arrival of a fresh Hunter Cadre saw the fighting intensify again. This time the Tau would deploy a new weapon. No Imperial Commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before. The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire. Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded, the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell.

So no, it doesn't actually say " a single pass" or anything "spelling it out". It says that it fired a volley of missiles and then it followed up with railgun shots. It could have wheeled back, or any other common air to ground approach pattern.
Nor does it say anything about the air support which bugs me because I very distinctly remember it.

The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.

Also, again, IIRC the Warhound did have ground support in the form of the SM chapter at Taros. It was a breakout of the stalemate with the 4 titans and SMs to break through the Tau lines.

And what the hell use do Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Predators do against AX-10s?
The only thing feasibly usable for air defense is the Whirlwind, and we don't know if they were equipped as Hyperios variants or not.

Jayden63 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jayden63 wrote:IOM shouldn't always win everything, its what makes them so damn boring.

This point is irrelevant...

If they win everything how is that they are losing war for survival?

When it comes to the Tau, it seems like the IOM fans come out of the woodwork and find it impossible that the Tau could have a victory, or even stand a chance for that matter. Pretty boring if your young upstart gets squashed before the race even begins. Thats my point. Obviously the Tau are doing something right. So yeah, by the very nature that they are going to continue as a presence in the 40K world means they can play on the same level as the big boys.

But they don't. That' the thing about the Tau; they're not playing on the same level.

The Tau have a double handful of worlds that bump up against the fringes of Imperial space. They're moving fast--scary fast, compared to the pondering monoliths of the big powers--but they're not doing more than nibbling on the backwaters and diverting some Imperial forces that can be spared from the actual, galaxy-shaking threats. On the level they're operating, they're doing really, really well, but they're a big fish in a small pond.

They're not remotely on the level of "a million worlds," or "martyrs killed for the Imperial cause outnumber the stars themselves." The Imperium loses planets due to rounding errors in their tax paperwork. The "big boys" have billions if not trillions of soldiers in their arsenal. The level they play on tears planets apart and leaves Tau Empire-sized swathes of space as burned and ruined collateral damage.

So the Tau can get victories against the Imperium. They can and should--on the level that the Eastern Fringe fights warrant in the higher-up's eyes. But the question of "what would the Tau do against a concentrated, well-supplied, persistent Imperial assault" can really only be "fight bravely and die well."

AndrewC wrote:

nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast.

Welcome to the world of Tau threads.

Because clearly the Tau players don't do anything to continue these ridiculous levels of one upsmanship, right?

If you find Brother Coa to be trolling--then ignore him and report his post. The Background Forum would be much better if he's not responded to.

1. Run away. Ok this is probably cheating, but they can just pull out and not actually fight it. They could wait till it gets transported then kill it in space, or buy pass it all together.

The Tau do not fight a fight they cannot win, to them it is not cowardice but simple logic. Your other suggestions make more sense.

You're correct. There is no cowardice, there's practicality.

2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.

Debatable. We haven't seen them do scorched earth yet, but their behavior towards Orks shows that they have no problems adopting it if necessary.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.

And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?

This all assumes that railguns don't work, or that the tau didn't build the railgun mark 2 by then.

I don't think that is a safe assumption. Look at the railrifle, it went from prototype to field use in a very short time to meet a specific function of marine killer. I don't see any reason for the AX10 not to meet the same advancement.

It actually didn't go from "prototype to field use". It's still actually in the prototype phase. That's why Pathfinders and Drones are using it, not Fire Warrior Teams.

It also did not go to meet the "function of Marine killer". It was to deal with the fact that the Imperium fields 3 tanks for every 1 the Tau field.

Looking at a titan battlegroup vs a tau attack force, it looks like the Tau can handle the Warhound class titan (assuming they have a Manta or a TIGER SHARK AX-1-0) It seems likely that these could handle a Reaver class as well. Easily? Maybe, maybe not. They appear to be more fragile than titans, but the Tiger Shark at least has a lot more manueverability. Yes, the titans will have support, but presumably, so will the tau.

The Warlord Class titans would be much more difficult. It would probably take some concentrated firepower, and this is where the tau advatage would start to fade. The Tau have two main platforms that are a threat to titans, the Manta and the more manueverable Tiger Shark AX. The Manta does not appear to be very manuevarable and would be vulnerable to heavy weapons fire, the the primary anti-titan weapon is the specially modified Tiger Shark. If the tau were aware that they would be facing a titan legion, then deploying enough tiger sharks does not seem like a problem. However, having basically one delivery system for the titan hunting weapons is. Every unit the Imperium can spar will be hunting down those Tiger Sharks. While this is true in any battle, the ability to deploy multiple types of titan hunting weapons is a big advantage for the Eldar, who have titans of their own, superheavy tanks and aircraft with Titan hunting weapons. And when you get to the Emperor class titan, the problem grows even more.

Titans are difficult to kill, but they are also costly and time consuming to produce. There is no indication that the tau (as far as I have seen, lore hounds feel free to correct me) cannot produce waves of Tigher Sharks as needed, but the single delivery system is a major stumbling block. I think the tau would need to develope additional anti titan platforms to really stand a chance against a full titan legion. It is clear they have the tech, it just has not been applied in that direction. Once forge world or specialist games sees a market, you can guarantee the tau will get out their titan killers.

That is my take anyway.

Hello Kanluwen, and how are you today?

I have to ignore your plot armour complaints, because they apply to any army out there.

Kanluwen wrote:

AndrewC wrote:We do know it was a single pass, as that part was spelled out in the book. I also thought that it was the AX10 on its' own that totaled the WarHound, I can't remember any other items of support. But I could be wrong on that IIRC there was minimal air support for the AX10, because no-one really ruled the skies at that point.

I'm going to quote it here.

Imperial Armour Volume 3 p.121 wrote:The Warhounds continually stalked forwards, obliterating anything in their path, along with the Space Marines, now advancing about their feet, the combined force thrust a sword clean through the Tau defences and opened the way onto the Iracunda Isthmus. The Tau rallied, and the arrival of a fresh Hunter Cadre saw the fighting intensify again. This time the Tau would deploy a new weapon. No Imperial Commander had ever encountered this new mark of Tiger Shark before. The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire. Missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings, flaring bright against Warhound Advensis Primaris' void shields. The explosions overpowered the generators which cut out. The following shots from the Tiger Shark's twin railguns struck the Warhound squarely in the hull. With devastating power two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates in an explosion that showered the surrounding desert in molten shrapnel. Critically wounded, the Warhound staggered backwards under the impacts, tottered and, to the astonishment of all, fell.

So no, it doesn't actually say " a single pass" or anything "spelling it out". It says that it fired a volley of missiles and then it followed up with railgun shots. It could have wheeled back, or any other common air to ground approach pattern.

And where does it say any of those things? Nowhere, it only mentions one pass. It flew in fired and left. Ergo one pass.

The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.

If you have a problem with that then take it up with GW, they wrote it.

And what the hell use do Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Predators do against AX-10s?
The only thing feasibly usable for air defense is the Whirlwind, and we don't know if they were equipped as Hyperios variants or not.

No, someone said earlier that the only reason that the WarHound was taken out was because it had no ground support. (Or words to similar effect)

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.

And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?

I'm agreeing with you, I'm proposing that Stealth teams would approach and attack with fusion blasters, not actually board

Oh, and railrifles. The reason that there are no railrifles with the Fire Warriors is that it is against Tau philosophy(sp) to include heavy weapons within their squads. A common complaint among Tau players I may add. Also ask any Tau player, Str6 AP3 is designed as a SM Killer, we have other more efficient means of killing tanks, from missile pods to railguns.

Cheers

Andrew

Battle Titan: More Tigersharks

Battle TitanS : depending on the number of titanS, either a lot more Tigersharks or avoid like the plague.

AndrewC wrote:Hello Kanluwen, and how are you today?

I have to ignore your plot armour complaints, because they apply to any army out there.

Other than the Imperial Guard, who basically count it as a win if they don't lose every single man in a regiment.

And where does it say any of those things? Nowhere, it only mentions one pass. It flew in fired and left. Ergo one pass.

Actually, it doesn't specify the number of passes. It also doesn't say "it flew in, fired, and left." It says that "missiles rippled from the aircraft's wings" and "two hyper-sonic shots tore through the thick armour plates".

The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.

If you have a problem with that then take it up with GW, they wrote it.

The problem is that Forge World had to come up with solutions for the mess that was the first Tau codex.

And what the hell use do Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Predators do against AX-10s?
The only thing feasibly usable for air defense is the Whirlwind, and we don't know if they were equipped as Hyperios variants or not.

No, someone said earlier that the only reason that the WarHound was taken out was because it had no ground support. (Or words to similar effect)

Which wasn't talking about Taros. It was talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade, as depicted by renowned Tau fanboy and former Studio Designer Andy Hoare.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.

And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?

I'm agreeing with you, I'm proposing that Stealth teams would approach and attack with fusion blasters, not actually board.

Do you really think fusion blasters are going to damage an actual Battle Titan?
It'd be like ants trying to murder a Tyrannosaur.

Oh, and railrifles. The reason that there are no railrifles with the Fire Warriors is that it is against Tau philosophy(sp) to include heavy weapons within their squads. A common complaint among Tau players I may add.

So why are there heavy weapons in Pathfinder Teams?

That "philosophy" isn't set in stone. The reason we're not seeing it being changed, in all seriousness, is because the railrifle isn't safe enough to be put into widespread use and the Tau aren't actually facing much that challenges them. They're fighting Orks, Tyranids, and PDFs for the most part.

It's like the US Army facing one of the uncontacted tribes in the Amazon.

Also ask any Tau player, Str6 AP3 is designed as a SM Killer, we have other more efficient means of killing tanks, from missile pods to railguns.

It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.

Probably the railgun would be used someway

Kanulwen, believe it or not, but I don't actually disagree with much of what you wrote.

Kanluwen wrote:Do you really think fusion blasters are going to damage an actual Battle Titan?
It'd be like ants trying to murder a Tyrannosaur.

And which one's still alive today? Go on laugh, you know you want to.

So why are there heavy weapons in Pathfinder Teams?

That "philosophy" isn't set in stone. The reason we're not seeing it being changed, in all seriousness, is because the railrifle isn't safe enough to be put into widespread use and the Tau aren't actually facing much that challenges them. They're fighting Orks, Tyranids, and PDFs for the most part.

I dont know. TBH I think they were placed there as the signature 'weapon' of the Pathfinders is the Markerlight, which is also heavy. The designers were probably hamstrung with the no support weapons in troop decision. Also the previous 'gets hot' rule which made the RR so dangerous to use was removed in Tau Empire, so we could, though unlikely, see them in troops if GW retcons the support weapons.

It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.

Do you know it's been so long since I read the original WD that included the RR I can't remember what the fluff purpose was.

Cheers

Andrew

Kanluwen wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast.

Welcome to the world of Tau threads.

Because clearly the Tau players don't do anything to continue these ridiculous levels of one upsmanship, right?

If you find Brother Coa to be trolling--then ignore him and report his post. The Background Forum would be much better if he's not responded to.

2 Space ships. Nuking the sight from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

They don't do scorched earth either. Wait and come back later when it's not there.

Debatable. We haven't seen them do scorched earth yet, but their behavior towards Orks shows that they have no problems adopting it if necessary.

3 Boarding party. Stealth teams, pathfinders, maybe even battlesuits board the craft and kill it form the onside out.

Such an attempt to board is very close to initiating close combat. Close using Stealth teams armed with fusion blasters seems more reasonable to me.

And you're aware that the larger Titans like Imperators actually have Guardsmen on board to repel such attacks?

I wasn't really talking about brother coa with that comment. More about how the first, page had very little about titans or how to kill titans.

I shouldn't have used the word nuke. I was actually thinking of ice fire misses (they only damages vehicles) or pin point rail cannon strikes.

The tau can take some IG. I was actually thinking it would be a hard thing to board it. That's why I said battlesuits. Maybe it's something shadowsun can do?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AndrewC wrote:
I dont know. TBH I think they were placed there as the signature 'weapon' of the Pathfinders is the Markerlight, which is also heavy. The designers were probably hamstrung with the no support weapons in troop decision. Also the previous 'gets hot' rule which made the RR so dangerous to use was removed in Tau Empire, so we could, though unlikely, see them in troops if GW retcons the support weapons.

It might be the tabletop purpose, but that's not the fluff purpose.

Do you know it's been so long since I read the original WD that included the RR I can't remember what the fluff purpose was.

Cheers

Andrew

I actually have that issue. I'll look up the reason when I get the chance. I reamer thought that they could fry the brains of the people using them and is why they are only issued to pathfinders.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

100 Regiments isn't small at all.

Yeah it is, and Damocles Gulf had a lot less than that, only 19 in fact.

Hell, the current US army has more than 100 regiments...

U.S. Army Regiments aren't 40K IG Regiments by a long shot.

Keep in mind that sending 100 Regiments to a front is a massive undertaking. Just think the 13th Black Crusade... Even with unbelievable resources pulled even the IG has its limits. While they can fight a war of attrition they also have to fight their own logistics. Which is why PDFs are such an important mainstay of the Imperium.

They aren't that different. While a Krieg regiment might be some 30,000 men or whatever ridiculous number, the regiments that fought in the Taros campaign are similar in size to a US Army regiment. 114th Cadian was just under 4k men all counted, 23rd Elysian was a bit over 2800 total all counted, 12th Tallarn was just over 4k all counted, The only really oversized regiment (by our standards) was 17th Tallarn at 10.6k There were 3 regiments structured like the 17th (including the 17th), 2 structured like the 12th (including the 12th), 1 like the 23rd (the 23rd), and 1 like the 114th (the 114th). There was also a Krieg and a Brimlock regiment, the Brimlock regiment was destroyed in orbit (size unknown, disposition in the thousands), and the Krieg regiment was ordered to stand down before they embarked their transports (size unknown).

And again, nowhere does it say either Damocles or Taros involved anything more than a handful of regiments. I don't know why you keep insisting 100 regiments is such a large force given real world parallels and the relative size of the regiments I listed above, nor do I understand how 100 regiments factors into this discussion.

Next we have the Damocles Gulf Crusade--the Tau are able to stalemate a force that previously had been steamrolling them up until then. When the Imperium prepares for escalation of the Crusade and extermination--the Tau are suddenly ignored because of the arrival of the largest Hive Fleet yet to threaten the Imperium.

To be fair, the Tau weren't exactly being steamrolled. While they were being bloodied, they inflicted their fair share of casualties, and by Dal'yth they had a much larger fleet than the Imperium did. Savage Scars gives us insight to how Dal'yth might have been a Tau victory if it weren't for the fact that they were focused more on withdrawing rather than actually fighting due to political maneuvers and a bit of espionage/sabotage. We also have to remember that the Crusade itself suffered a lot of political infighting as well.

And then we have Taros. A desert world, with very little in the way of potable water. The war goes terribly for the Imperium because it's essentially what we saw happen with the Soviets in Afghanistan. They were ill-prepared, facing an enemy that knew the terrain and was very much prepared to operate in that environment. And let's not forget the Tiger Shark. Out of freaking nowhere, they have this Deus Ex Machina that drops a Warhound Titan with ease and makes the Adeptus Mechanicus "flee"?

I wouldn't complain about the Tigershark if I were you. Its really the only part of the 'plot armor' that makes any sense at all/isn't horribly contrived. The Tau could achieve the same results prior to this with Manta's anyway. And to be fair, it seems that in just about any book involving Titans, the Mechanicus threatens to pull Titans if there is even a risk of a lost engine.

So no, it doesn't actually say " a single pass" or anything "spelling it out". It says that it fired a volley of missiles and then it followed up with railgun shots. It could have wheeled back, or any other common air to ground approach pattern.
Nor does it say anything about the air support which bugs me because I very distinctly remember it.

Its safely assumed that its a single pass, given the fact that the paragraph goes into as much detail as to describe how the Tigershark approached the formation in the first place. I feel like if there was a movement as major as wheeling around for a second approach it would have been described when it already states "The aircraft came in fast, skimming the desert so low it kicked up a dust cloud, before climbing over a shallow rise to open fire." Especially important is the last part 'to open fire'. As for the air support, if you read the buildup to that part of the book, it talks about how the Tau swatted the Imperial air cover from the sky. I forget the exact number, but by that point they had some 30-60 fighters and bombers total left and they were in poor repair due to the environment. The Imperium was relying primarily on anti-aircraft weapons (hydras, manticores, etc.) at this point to cover itself, but IIRC the book also discusses how a lot of these were neutralized. In any case, the fact that the Tigershark came in fast and low negates their use. Its a valid tactic in the real world as well, come in low to below the radar and limit the range of visual detection. Assuming an earth sized planet and roughly flat terrain, an average human observer would observe the horizon at about 5km away. We can assume the Tigershark was say 30 feet above (skimming implies something closer IMO, but I think this will suffice) the surface, at which point it would be visible about 12km away. Assuming that the Tigershark was at its stated max recorded speed of 2100 KM/H ( a dangerous feet at that altitude, but certainly possible with advanced terrain following radar), the tigershark would cover ~.6Km ever second, so it would only be visible on its approach for some 20 seconds (both visually and on radar) BUT, this assumes that such an approach is even necessary, as the weapons involved should certainly be able to engage the Titan AT 12km. This of course assumes that you could see it through the stated dust cloud (which implies a possibly even lower altitude) and any other visible obstruction (its stated that it appeared over a rise to fire). Granted, the Titan should be able to see it at a farther distance given its height, but who knows.

The biggest problem I have with that stupid AX-10 is that it is supposed to be "from Tau experience of fighting Titans before". When? The Damocles Gulf Crusade?
The other problem I have with it is it's like if the Leman Russ started packing the Baneblade cannon or the Shadowsword's cannons.

Yes actually. Hell, even the 3rd edition Tau codex discusses that the Tau developed aircraft mounted weaponry to counter titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Its hardly 'deus ex machina' or new. As for the Tigershark and the Manta carrying the same heavy railgun, having seen both of the models in person, its pretty reasonable, given the fact that the railguns are the same size on both minis. The only difference is that the Manta carries another 6 ion cannons to supplement it, plus something like 144 firewarriors, 4 devilfish/hammerheads, 16 burstcannons, and a bunch of seeker missiles. Its not that farfetched at all.

Manta.

Halfway in between Reaver and Warlord, plus it flies, plus it has 16 BC...And heavy Railguns are as powerful as titans weapons so...yeah...

The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

Andy Hoare is a great man.

Brother Coa wrote:For now Tau can't do a squat to bigger Titans then Warhound ( Warhound don't even have Void Shields ).

Actually, they do. But not as many as the reaver or warlord, or even the imperator.

Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.

Well, adapting has its advantages and all that, but are you assuming the Imperium will not adapt as well? Remember, humanity has survived in the universe longer than the Tau have. We didn't do it on numbers alone, nor did we rely on numbers, heck, we didn't even have numbers to begin with until we started the Great Crusade, and that wouldn't have gone very well either unless we knew just exactly what types of technology needed to be adapted and improved to face the numerous different threats and situations we encountered.