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BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

Andy Hoare is a great man.

Yeah...he's really not. Sure, it's nice that he likes the Tau--but that doesn't mean what he does is acceptable any more so than some of the shenanigans that Ward has done like the Stormraven or parts of the Blood Angels codex(and no--I'm not referencing the Necron thing).

Hoare does a little bit better working for FFG, but he has far more people holding him in check than he ever did at GW I think.

I should also add that I find it amusing that if you go on The Black Library's site, and search for Andy Hoare..."Savage Scars" does not turn up in the results.
"The Hunt for Voldorius" turns up, as does his short stories that are currently published but no "Savage Scars".

LumenPraebeo wrote:

Uhlan wrote:I'll bet that when the new Tau codex comes out we'll read "newly" discovered details about Tau tactics and victories at the expense of the Imperium. Maybe even some really scary Tau CC. If there is any race other than the Tyranids who can adapt and over come it's the Tau.

Well, adapting has its advantages and all that, but are you assuming the Imperium will not adapt as well?

The imperium has been using the same technology, the same methodology, and the same bureaucracy for 10,000 years...it's part of their innate character not to adapt

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.

Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.

Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.

Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.

AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

And yet he wrote the stories from the Imperial perspective? I haven't read very much of his stuff (I dont think hes a very good writer, Savage Scars was a massive disappointment), but is it possible that he is simply trying to put the Tau in a better perspective/make them more relevant to the setting? Just because the Tau are capable in his storylines doesn't mean hes a fanboy. I know to some...errrmmm.... Imperial oriented readers he may seem to be a fanboy, but that doesn't mean he IS a fanboy. He certainly didn't seem like much of a Tau fanboy when I read Savage Scars at least, considering that he makes the Tau out to be rather naive/unintelligent, and they got smashed pretty hard by the marines all through the story.

I can't really say how the Tau would take on Titans.

to date: they have killed a single Warhound titan. that was after jury rigging the Heavy Railguns to counter it.


Tau railgun technology is certaintly impressive and is most capable of killing Titans. the main problem is when Titans are deployed in large groups. the Tau are not a numerous force and I doubt they would have enough railguns to counter a proper imperial incursion. the Daemocles Gulf crusade was a joke that did quite alot of damage to the Tau for its size.

Railguns would have to take on both Imperial tank companies as well as Titans. Target saturation could simply overwhealm them. either shoot the big scary walkers pounding your position or the wall of Lemun Russ tanks about to drown you in ordinance.

and we can't say that Tau air superiority would help. the Imperium has Thunderbolts and Marauders to deal with enemy attack craft, and in large numbers too.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

And yet he wrote the stories from the Imperial perspective? I haven't read very much of his stuff (I dont think hes a very good writer, Savage Scars was a massive disappointment), but is it possible that he is simply trying to put the Tau in a better perspective/make them more relevant to the setting? Just because the Tau are capable in his storylines doesn't mean hes a fanboy. I know to some...errrmmm.... Imperial oriented readers he may seem to be a fanboy, but that doesn't mean he IS a fanboy. He certainly didn't seem like much of a Tau fanboy when I read Savage Scars at least, considering that he makes the Tau out to be rather naive/unintelligent, and they got smashed pretty hard by the marines all through the story.

It's cuz he wrote the dex, so they accuse him.

And the reason SS was a disappointment was because you could tell he was trying to introduce each and every Tau military unit individually.

@ Grey, they have killed several, and I am pretty sure they downed a few reavers.

When have the tau killed several titans? I can only think of the one.

According to all the sources i have seen, only a single Warhound titan was downed. the remaining Warhounds and single reaver of the crusade were untouched.

There was a reaver? That's the first I heard of that too.

Grey Templar wrote:I can't really say how the Tau would take on Titans.

to date: they have killed a single Warhound titan. that was after jury rigging the Heavy Railguns to counter it.

The official count is AT LEAST two titans (one officially on Dal'yth, and one officially on Taros). I don't pretend that the fluff documents every instance of battle between the Tau and the Imperium either. To assume as such is just pure stupidity.

Railguns would have to take on both Imperial tank companies as well as Titans. Target saturation could simply overwhealm them. either shoot the big scary walkers pounding your position or the wall of Lemun Russ tanks about to drown you in ordinance.

The railguns used to pop titans are different from the ones used to engage groups of armor. Target saturation really isn't an issue. First priority targets for heavy railguns are titans and other superheavy systems, secondary is battle tanks, etc. Standard railguns are reversed.

And the reason SS was a disappointment was because you could tell he was trying to introduce each and every Tau military unit individually.

Actually, I found it disappointing because I wanted some insight into the White Scars, which are supposed to be known for using primarily bike mounted marines, and yet there isn't a single white scars biker in the book...

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

And yet he wrote the stories from the Imperial perspective? I haven't read very much of his stuff (I dont think hes a very good writer, Savage Scars was a massive disappointment), but is it possible that he is simply trying to put the Tau in a better perspective/make them more relevant to the setting? Just because the Tau are capable in his storylines doesn't mean hes a fanboy. I know to some...errrmmm.... Imperial oriented readers he may seem to be a fanboy, but that doesn't mean he IS a fanboy. He certainly didn't seem like much of a Tau fanboy when I read Savage Scars at least, considering that he makes the Tau out to be rather naive/unintelligent, and they got smashed pretty hard by the marines all through the story.

Yes, because Dan Abnett writing Renegade Guard as "capable enemies" means that he's a fanboy.
Or because Jim Butcher writes Necromancers as "capable enemies" for Harry Dresden means that he's in reality a Dark Wizard!

That's not why he's a fanboy. It's because he's said it multiple times, he wrote the Codex(wanting to write it, mind you), currently writes the Tau related material for FFG's supplements, has a Tau army that has cropped up a few times in GW's stuff, etc.

I have nothing against him writing the Tau as a capable enemy. They are a capable enemy, and should be treated as such.

And really, did you expect the Tau to fare well against the Astartes? Do you not remember how the Damocles Gulf went down? When the Astartes started showing up in force, the Tau had to alter tactics and use their Crisis Suits to 'hold the line' against the Astartes.

im2randomghgh wrote:
It's cuz he wrote the dex, so they accuse him.

Or it's because he's been well known as a Tau fanboy?

Seriously. Look up who wrote the rules for the Gue'vasa or his two novels "Star of Damocles" and "Rogue Star". If you can find them, his Tau army has also featured a few times in White Dwarfs over the years.

By the by: it's "because". Don't use chat/text speak on here please.

And the reason SS was a disappointment was because you could tell he was trying to introduce each and every Tau military unit individually.

It also could be a disappointment because he's just not that great of a writer in a novel format. His short stories and pieces of fluff that are fairly small usually are okay, outside of the Tau Empire book.

@ Grey, they have killed several, and I am pretty sure they downed a few reavers.

They downed a single Warhound in the Taros campaign. It likely could have been salvaged, given the fact that railgun rounds tend to hull a vehicle rather than cause it to spectacularly explode or disintegrate unless they hit the reactor core.

The Imperium has not deployed any Reavers against the Tau, so there's no way at all that the Tau have destroyed them.

I belive there was a single reaver in the Damocles gulf. I could be wrong though, the Lexi article isn't mentioning the Titan presense.

The Damocles Gulf Crusade composition is asininely screwed up.

There was a listing that was floating around at one point that had something like 14 Land Speeders for each Battle-Brother that was fielded in the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Another had the force composition having almost 3x the number of Astartes on the field as Guardsmen.

Okay, I've been reading this one back and forth for a while now and I had to sign up and step in.

On the topic of the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man and relative threat levels.

A great comparison can be found in the history of our own world.

In the mid 7th century, the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the much older Roman Empire. It was an ancient, great civilization that was fraying at the edges. Barbarian incursions had caused much of the empire to collapse. Internal political divisions were rife.

Meanwhile, on the eastern fringe of the empire, a group who the empire had dismissed as primitive barbarians embraced a new faith and driven by it's energy were on the verge of remaking their society.

Nine hundred years pass and the fledgling society on the eastern fringe of the empire had reduced the empire to a memory and taken it's capital as a the crown jewel of their own empire.

Now had the Byzantine Empire been a little better organized and not having to deal with so many other threats, it would have been a simple matter for them to eradicate the Muslims before they expanded into a threat. They had done it to other groups in the past and it was certainly within their power. Instead they focused on other priorities and their own internal squabbles and were eventually annihilated.

A lot of fans of the Tau see the Tau as the little band in the desert who eventally toppled the greatest empire of the all. A lot of fans of the Imperium see the Tau as the little band in the desert they could sweep away at ease.

The truth of the matter is both are true. The Tau cold topple the Imperium in time - but the are nowhere near able to do it yet. Likewise, the Imperium could destroy the Tau with incredible ease if they devoted themselves to it. Which of these will occur will be decided by the meta-plot of the game universe.

So arguing about who will doom the other is pointless. Both can win, both can lose and the writers ahve yet to tell us how that will unfold.



Now back to the actual topic of the thread. The Tau have titan destroyer weaponry and super-heavies just like everyone else does. The big difference is the titan destroyer weapons and super heavies of the Tau are not tanks or other titans, they are flyers. This doesn't make them inferior or superior, just different. Now we can debate how many Titans the Tau could destroy and the exact tactics of the scenario until we are blue in the face (Tau get there first) but the bottom line is yes, the Tau can kill Titans both in fluff and in game.

If you read the Taros Campaign, they make it pretty clear that the Titan was destroyed, if not, then at the very least it wasn't recovered by the Ad Mech, as its written in several places that the Titan was 'lost'.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.

Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.

Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.

Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.

AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.

I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.

Kanluwen wrote:The Damocles Gulf Crusade composition is asininely screwed up.

There was a listing that was floating around at one point that had something like 14 Land Speeders for each Battle-Brother that was fielded in the Damocles Gulf Crusade. Another had the force composition having almost 3x the number of Astartes on the field as Guardsmen.

I have heard so many different army lists it's not even funny. The only thing that remains is that it's a small force with different definitions of small.

chaos0xomega wrote:If you read the Taros Campaign, they make it pretty clear that the Titan was destroyed, if not, then at the very least it wasn't recovered by the Ad Mech, as its written in several places that the Titan was 'lost'.

The Ad Mech didn't recover it, but there is still the question did the tau recover it. Two rail rounds wouldn't reduce it to slag, but the IoM might have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.

Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.

Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.

Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.

AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.

I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.

Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

Jefffar wrote:Okay, I've been reading this one back and forth for a while now and I had to sign up and step in.

On the topic of the Tau Empire and the Imperium of Man and relative threat levels.

A great comparison can be found in the history of our own world.

In the mid 7th century, the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the much older Roman Empire. It was an ancient, great civilization that was fraying at the edges. Barbarian incursions had caused much of the empire to collapse. Internal political divisions were rife.

Meanwhile, on the eastern fringe of the empire, a group who the empire had dismissed as primitive barbarians embraced a new faith and driven by it's energy were on the verge of remaking their society.

Nine hundred years pass and the fledgling society on the eastern fringe of the empire had reduced the empire to a memory and taken it's capital as a the crown jewel of their own empire.

Now had the Byzantine Empire been a little better organized and not having to deal with so many other threats, it would have been a simple matter for them to eradicate the Muslims before they expanded into a threat. They had done it to other groups in the past and it was certainly within their power. Instead they focused on other priorities and their own internal squabbles and were eventually annihilated.

A lot of fans of the Tau see the Tau as the little band in the desert who eventally toppled the greatest empire of the all. A lot of fans of the Imperium see the Tau as the little band in the desert they could sweep away at ease.

The truth of the matter is both are true. The Tau cold topple the Imperium in time - but the are nowhere near able to do it yet. Likewise, the Imperium could destroy the Tau with incredible ease if they devoted themselves to it. Which of these will occur will be decided by the meta-plot of the game universe.

So arguing about who will doom the other is pointless. Both can win, both can lose and the writers ahve yet to tell us how that will unfold.



Now back to the actual topic of the thread. The Tau have titan destroyer weaponry and super-heavies just like everyone else does. The big difference is the titan destroyer weapons and super heavies of the Tau are not tanks or other titans, they are flyers. This doesn't make them inferior or superior, just different. Now we can debate how many Titans the Tau could destroy and the exact tactics of the scenario until we are blue in the face (Tau get there first) but the bottom line is yes, the Tau can kill Titans both in fluff and in game.

I'd also say Ancient Macedonia, only a few times larger than Rhode Island before they conquered a tri-continental empire.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The only mention of Tau "developing aircraft mounted weaponry to counter Titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade" is them using Manta Missile Destroyers during the part of Stage 2: Stalemate at Dal'yth Prime(page 60). You should also remember that the Tiger Shark ditches almost all of its armament to mount those twin Heavy Rail Cannons--which the Tau stripped out of Mantas.

And "Savage Scars" gives us nothing but fanwankery from Andy Hoare. Seriously. The man has a hard-on for the Tau like you would not believe. He's like Mat Ward with the Space Marines, but worse.

If you haven't noticed, each and every novel ever written by BL is hugely FAN-tastic and the characters are clad in 150cm of plot armour.

Also, that novel was huge space-marine fanboism. Also, Sarik (that was his name right? read it a while ago) killed several XV8s, even though a single XV8 is worth 3-4 Tac marines. Closer to a terminator who swaps a little extra protection for huge mobility.

Sarik also completely blocks plasma rifle/rail rifle shots with his pauldron, and also his unit was attacked by IIRC a dozen broadsides and lost like three brothers.

Also, his armour withstood a good number of pulse rounds throughout the campaign, even though their power is comparable to a heavy bolt round.

AND he was stunned by a kroot shaman, but somehow decided magic doesn't affect him and killed the kroot.

I dunno, maybe its because that's how good Space Marines are? They aren't a merry band of paper armoured incompetent idiots, they're the most elite fighting force the Imperium can field in any numbers. There's a reason most marines survive for hundreds of years, because they can't be mowed down by the Tau like your average guardsmen.

Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.

It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.

Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.

It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.

I'm not buying most of this. Strong yes, but not 'punch thorugh power armour in a few hits strong'. Not sure about the design of the bolter to be honest, as most representations of Asartes vs Astartes has bolt rounds failing to punch through Power Armour on nearly every occasion. Since Pulse rounds don't pack as much punch as a bolt round shot for shot, then I still think that an Asartes is going to take a fair number of hits before one penetrates, and it likely won't do that much harm due to its small damage area.

Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.

Not really. There are certain forces within each army that are stupidly good, XV9's, Space Marines, Nobs, Carnifex's and so on, Space Marines are still the epitome of humanities battle capabilities.
I'd recommend that you wash away this opinion and read some more GW material. Dawn of War and others aren't good representations at all. The new Space Marines game is however.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.

It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.

I'm not buying most of this. Strong yes, but not 'punch thorugh power armour in a few hits strong'. Not sure about the design of the bolter to be honest, as most representations of Asartes vs Astartes has bolt rounds failing to punch through Power Armour on nearly every occasion. Since Pulse rounds don't pack as much punch as a bolt round shot for shot, then I still think that an Asartes is going to take a fair number of hits before one penetrates, and it likely won't do that much harm due to its small damage area.

Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.

Not really. There are certain forces within each army that are stupidly good, XV9's, Space Marines, Nobs, Carnifex's and so on, Space Marines are still the epitome of humanities battle capabilities.
I'd recommend that you wash away this opinion and read some more GW material. Dawn of War and others aren't good representations at all. The new Space Marines game is however.

Um bolters were not made to punch through power armour. Bolters were made before the Heresy and the idea of astates killing astartes was laughable.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Skill might have come up if he was dodgeing or something, but being really cool dosen't alter the protective value of your armor.

That's right, and would apply if Power Armour were stupidly weak. It's not, its able to take a hell of a lot more than a few pulse shots without the Rule of Cool coming into play. Pretty sure the part with it deflecting rail rifle shots was either a one off, or made-up, but I still don't see why it's so remarkable that some Space Marines are able to slaughter their way through battle suits and Firewarriors. They've likely faced much worse.

It's not stupidly weak. It's just that tau weapons are stupidly strong. Bolters where made to punch through power armor and pulse rounds pack more punch then bolt rounds. GW shoot themselves in the foot there.

I'm not buying most of this. Strong yes, but not 'punch thorugh power armour in a few hits strong'. Not sure about the design of the bolter to be honest, as most representations of Asartes vs Astartes has bolt rounds failing to punch through Power Armour on nearly every occasion. Since Pulse rounds don't pack as much punch as a bolt round shot for shot, then I still think that an Asartes is going to take a fair number of hits before one penetrates, and it likely won't do that much harm due to its small damage area.

Ya SMs are strong. They are stupidly powerful, but so is everyone else. (Except IG. Sorry guys.) My option of SM power is mostly shaped by the video games not the books. SMs die a lot in them. I still think my blood angels being sliced through in space hulk.

Not really. There are certain forces within each army that are stupidly good, XV9's, Space Marines, Nobs, Carnifex's and so on, Space Marines are still the epitome of humanities battle capabilities.
I'd recommend that you wash away this opinion and read some more GW material. Dawn of War and others aren't good representations at all. The new Space Marines game is however.

A Pulse Rifle is a stronger shot then a Bolter.

No question at all.

Really? You just going to repeat what I did and not give any sort of reasoning as to why? I'd really like to read a little more detail from you, I'll respond in kind.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
A Pulse Rifle is a stronger shot then a Bolter.

No question at all.

Where do you have this from?

No, seriously. Cite a source.

nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)

Here is a link of detailed descriptions of all titans,including the Xenos versions.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan

The fact that a pulse rifle has Strength 5 and a bolter only Strength 4 is a pretty good indicator I would say. That and I believe its stated that it packs more power per shot than a bolter but has a lower rate of fire in one of the codecies. I know the 4th edition codex does state that its based on plasma weapon technology, which is in itself a good indicator of its strength relative to a bolter.

That's not really any indication, as it's the rules. You're guaranteed to find similar differences that don't match up in the background. Being Plasma however is decent enough reasoning though. The Bolter I believe does more damage to a target than a Pulse Rifle shot does. Take an Ork for example. The Pulse shot may go right through the stomach, leaving a tiny burnt hole that seals up immediately due to the heat and likely wont stall the Orkz advance. A bolter round hits the stomach. It either creates huge hole, which knocks the Ork over with the impact, makes it bleed out or die from the size of the wound, or it explodes, and blows the Ork to pieces.

chaos0xomega wrote:The fact that a pulse rifle has Strength 5 and a bolter only Strength 4 is a pretty good indicator I would say.

And the tabletop is a terrible indicator of lore. Lorewise, Lasguns sever limbs and can punch fist-sized holes into a carapace armored individual. Because of the sheer volume of Lasguns that can be fielded--they don't do that on the tabletop.

That and I believe its stated that it packs more power per shot than a bolter but has a lower rate of fire in one of the codecies. I know the 4th edition codex does state that its based on plasma weapon technology, which is in itself a good indicator of its strength relative to a bolter.

Here's the description of how Pulse weapons work, courtesy of "Codex: Tau"(note: Tau, not Tau Empire).
"All three weapons are variants of the same technology. An induction field is used to propel a particle. The particle reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel."

The Tau Plasma weapons had a specific notation. "The Tau plasma rifle is lower powered than its Imperial equivalent but does not suffer from overheating".

I've seen nothing saying that it "packs more power per shot than a bolter". And even if it does pack more power, it still suffers from the same problem that Hammerheads suffer versus the Leman Russ variants.

Deadshot wrote:

nomotog wrote:Wow this got off track fast. What do we know about battle Titans? I can't find much info on the lexicon other then that they are bigger then the warhound, but not how much bigger or what other changes they have. (The weapons could be to big to actually shoot at anything smaller then another titan?)

Here is a link of detailed descriptions of all titans,including the Xenos versions.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan

That was very helpful thank you. It actually makes me think that the tau might not have such a hard time with the bigger titans. (the titans by them selves) A raver is only twice as well armored as a warhound. So that's like 2 or 3 passes. The big kicker is that it dosen't apare to have anything like mini turrets or anything. Just the big stuff which I imagine is hard to aim at an air craft. It's build to kill other titans I suspect it might have a hard time fighting something smaller.


Oh and iproxtaco I PMed my response to you. I didn't want to help drag this thread off topic any more then I already have.